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'Shirtstorm' Leads To Apology From European Space Scientist

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Mumei

Member
So the problem isn't necessarily that the shirt features women, it's that it perpetuates geeky stereotypes that tend to cater more to men?

Hm.

I don't know that I'd call it a geeky stereotype (is wearing shirts like that a stereotype of geeks? I'm not aware of it if it is). And my issue with the shirt is not disconnected from the "content" of the shirt. I think that the shirt, his decision to wear it, and the fact that no one (apparently) thought to tell him, "Hey, bad idea" says something about the sort of casual objectification that is normalized in that community, which might say to some women, "You wouldn't feel welcome here." And this is similar to how stereotypical geeky décor might say to some women, "You wouldn't feel welcome here." I think they have the same sort of function, but not in exactly the same ways. Does that make sense?

If you don't care about making women feel welcome, obviously this isn't an issue. But you can't simultaneously hold the position that women should feel welcome, and argue that you shouldn't have to change the things that make women feel unwelcome.
 

AppleMIX

Member
Writing "internet gonna internet" comes across as dismissive since it implies that this is a natural thing that is inherent with the internet. I strongly disagree and instances of harassment should be condemned and condemned loudly.

No it is just realistic stance. Harassment is probably always going to exist. That is just a sad truth that we're just going to have to deal with. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to curb harassment but we should also realize that ending harassment completely is a pipe dream. Realistic goals are the best.

I don't think that there is a magic bullet solution to this issue, companies need to take a bigger responsibility in directly combating the harassment (twitter took a baby step with the collaboration with Women, Action & the Media), people need to stop treating the internet as a separate entity in peoples lives where it is ok "to blow off some steam" by being obnoxious, and as I stated people need to help create an environment where harassment is viewed as abnormal and bad, not inherent with the medium.

These are good starts but I don't know how effective they would be and frankly seem unrealistic. Changing peoples minds on something like the nature of the internet which is something that could easily take decades and even then wouldn't end harassment.

I think we largely agree on this point. But to reiterate my point, the perceived/imagined masses opinion is not necessarily right or relevant.

Which I agree with but that doesn't mean it's wrong.

Anyways I got to get ready for work. It was nice chatting.
 
I think that the shirt, his decision to wear it, and the fact that no one (apparently) thought to tell him, "Hey, bad idea" says something about the sort of casual objectification that is normalized in that community

That's not factually supported. It might just as well be because no one paid attention to anything except the big mission. It's important to remember we're not dealing with a system or population here, but a small collection of individuals. They can explain their stance or not, but neither option justifies labeling them before hand.
 

berzeli

Banned
No it is just realistic stance. Harassment is probably always going to exist. That is just a sad truth that we're just going to have to deal with. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to curb harassment but we should also realize that ending harassment completely is a pipe dream. Realistic goals are the best.

The issue is that by saying "internet gonna internet" you suggest that harassment is a normal part of the internet. It kind of is like saying after the Unabomber "letters gonna letters". It normalises despicable behaviour as an inherent part of the medium. Harassment will probably always exist but it shouldn't be viewed as something normal.

These are good starts but I don't know how effective they would be and frankly seem unrealistic. Changing peoples minds on something like the nature of the internet which is something that could easily take decades and even then wouldn't end harassment.

Well pretty much doing anything is better than what a lot of companies are doing at the moment.

The changing of peoples minds is already happening, a decent chunk of the generation that is growing up now doesn't view the internet as a separate entity in their life but rather as an extension of it. Which is both cool and terrifying.

Which I agree with but that doesn't mean it's wrong.

Anyways I got to get ready for work. It was nice chatting.

I think it comes down to the view of how we treat the concerns of the few, I think it is incredibly dangerous when people dismiss something because it doesn't concern the majority. If something is perceived as a problem by a small number of people addressing their concern is as valuable as addressing the concerns of many.

Nice talking to you as well.
 

Opto

Banned
I guess the fundamental point you might have missed is that many (most) people don't see sexual imagery as inherently *sexist*. And I guess for those who do it's just too bad. Conversely, a written message on a shirt that is explicitly derogatory to one gender *is* sexist.

Let's flip the genders of everyone involved in this story. A female scientist is interviewed by a man, while she wears a garish shirt with cartoon biker guys in skimpy leathers and displays her arm tattoos. The reaction here would be completely different. You wouldn't call her sexist, you'd be using words like empowered and confident.

Let's take that further though and have a male journalist use twitter to call this female scientist an 'asshole' for her choice of attire. Are we even going to pretend that you wouldn't (rightly) be outraged at said fictional male journalist?


Sexism is applying standards to one gender that you don't to the other.

You seem to think we live in a post-sexism world, where the reality is that we don't. So you can't do a "flip the genders" and expect that to prove your point. And no I wouldn't be using words like "empowered" and "confident" if she wear a shirt like the one you described. But it would be different because of the context. It wouldn't be representative of an often hostile and exclusive environment in a field of work. It would be deemed as inappropriate and unprofessional.

You, sir, are ignoring the constantly repeated statement of how this shirt is a very real reminder of the underlying (and sometimes blatant) sexism that runs through STEM fields. You're ignoring the very real women in the field speaking out against this shirt. Maybe you don't like a journalist calling someone an asshole, but when it's 20 goddamn 14 and this shit keeps happening, it's going to make some people upset. (Here's her tweet about his apology https://twitter.com/roseveleth/status/533251143829565440 Now look at the shit being thrown at her)

When people say "we should just treat everyone equally" ignores the amount of inequality in the world and the efforts to actually bring equality to it. It's an easy cop-out that actually requires no work and doesn't effect the status quo.
 
That people working in this scientific field (as well as other industries that hire a lot of science/tech people) start being more aware of their behavior and culture and how it alienates women. And hopefully once they are more self-aware, they start making changes to their culture to be more welcoming to women entering STEM fields.
See, I don't find this argument compelling at all, and why I have a problem with this whole line of argument. I as an an African American male don't find graduate school at this major SEC PWI school very "inviting" as a holder of a HBCU undergraduate degree, but I ignore this trepidation because I just accept it as a place that wasn't initially intended for me to be there (during segregation). I am an anomoly. Yet none of this seems to have affected my performance as a student at all. I've got the best grades I've ever gotten here, even with all the mildly offensive things professors/students sometimes say to me. I think I'm doing so well here precisely because they don't "expect" (subconciously) me to do well. Then I surprise them with my abilities. I'm an underdog of sorts, and they constantly underestimate my ability to thrive in their environment. I like that. I appreciate the winds blowing against me.

However, I was essentially raised to be this way. I grew up on the "white" side of my hometown, with only a handful of black friends I knew from school (none of whom lived near me). The few white friends I did have in the neighborhood either drifted away or their families outright ostracized me when I became older (one parent actually calling and saying "I don't think boys and girls should play together"). Pretty soon we were a pretty alienated family on the block, especially when one of my black friends moved into the neighborhood. Thus, being an "outsider" in the white world (and the black world, too because I grew up on the white side of town) is not only normal for me, I don't really know anything else.

I also don't find the argument compelling because of my own mother's experience. She is a "STEM woman" (and also black) and completed her computer science degree at the same HBCU I did. After graduating, she went to USC and eventually to Bell Labs and more. Certainly back in the days she was initally working, the environment was MUCH tougher for her as a black woman in the early eighties than it is for me now. But she powered through it, and is currently very successful in the field. And that's my point. Instead of trying to get everyone else to change, why don't we teach women to "power through" adversity rather than change the minds of people who are not trying to actively attempting to impede their progress. I would make a different argument if there were actually legal barriers preventing women from entering STEM fields. But I disagree with the notion that we should alter STEM culture to suit women.

I'm not trying to alter SEC PWI culture to suit me. I couldn't really care less about it (though there are some aspects I like about it). I understand that the things they do (though they may alienate me) are fun for them, and I just have no interest in entering that world. The reverse is also true. I don't want white people altering my HBCU's culture because they feel alienated- precisely for the same reason I don't want to alter theirs. Moreover, I don't want then entire field of STEM to become a bunch of suit-wearing prudes. For many men, the removal of the "everyday is casual day" removes alot of the attraction to the field for men (and probably women too). People should be able to be themselves at work, college, or anywhere. That includes wearing tees that might offend a few viewers.
 
Can 'a shirt' be deemed unwelcoming towards women? Of course. Is this that shirt? To me, absolutely not.

I know I'm not as sex-negative as a lot here on GAF, but attractive ladies on a tacky shirt is just nowhere near at all a substantially unwelcoming image to me, and I'm just plain not going to see anything inherently evil about a shirt with attractive women on it, certainly nothing at all to say "women are not welcome to be doing anything that I'm doing". There are plenty of women in Matt's life that have clearly approved of his shirt and complimented as such, so that he, just as they, had no idea how "bad" the shirt supposedly was. If someone felt put-off by it they are more than free to go up to him and state as much, inform him how you feel, or perhaps even understand his side instead of immediately making him up to be a chauvinist pig mascot. This topic is very subjective and emotional, and immediately painting things this was is completely harmful and destructive to any proper discussion about what is and is not appropriate to be wearing. This shirt is not objectively dangerous, there are many point of views about just what it represents and it should not be immediately vilified in this way instead of going up and discussing it in a civil manner.

To me, this shirt is quite the opposite of what it's criticized for. Unwelcoming to science? No, to me this image, and Matt Taylor himself, showed that science is not just for the stereotypical image of geeks in hiked up dress pants with their shirts tucked in. There is a great deal of both men and women who see science as a field only for the stereotypical geeky nerd type image. Sure, I chuckled at how silly the shirt actually looks but that is wholly unrelated. Instead now I'm sad to see the man being monstrously shamed by the Internet outrage machine, now even encouraging a dress code, regulating science back to the personality-less stereotypical geek image that has put people off and even mocked the world of science for decades, and shaming the man for putting on a special shirt to him for his big day.
 

akira28

Member
he thought the shirt would be a good idea, turned out to be a gaffe. he apologized, and we move on. For some reason I don't think that it is crosses the risque line into offensive territory. But it's certainly poor taste. While I object to the objectification norm, I don't think that sexually suggestive imagery should be immediately thought of as negative, aggressive, or disempowering. Case by case basis, and in this context, I don't think it's a major offense.

easy for me to say, I know.

Can 'a shirt' be deemed unwelcoming towards women? Of course. Is this that shirt? To me, absolutely not.

I would think it would be the culture of pissing contests and petty competetive posturing that would be unwelcoming to women in the STEMS, not so much the shirt. This is, to me, another example of the status quo putting out house fires next to the standing inferno.
 
Hm.

I don't know that I'd call it a geeky stereotype (is wearing shirts like that a stereotype of geeks? I'm not aware of it if it is). And my issue with the shirt is not disconnected from the "content" of the shirt. I think that the shirt, his decision to wear it, and the fact that no one (apparently) thought to tell him, "Hey, bad idea" says something about the sort of casual objectification that is normalized in that community, which might say to some women, "You wouldn't feel welcome here." And this is similar to how stereotypical geeky décor might say to some women, "You wouldn't feel welcome here." I think they have the same sort of function, but not in exactly the same ways. Does that make sense?

If you don't care about making women feel welcome, obviously this isn't an issue. But you can't simultaneously hold the position that women should feel welcome, and argue that you shouldn't have to change the things that make women feel unwelcome.

Yeah, I can understand how a chain of events could create an unwelcome environment. I dunno if this mean ESA is "sexist". They would have "approved" of an equally tacky shirt, that doesn't depict scantily clad women. Maybe they should be more actively aware of how their members could be perceived.

Still feel kinda bad for the guy.


Edit: At the same time, the scientific community is considered "stuffy" and "uncool". Seeing tattoos on a leading scientist also shows that the community can be welcoming to different kinds of people.
 
he thought the shirt would be a good idea, turned out to be a gaffe. he apologized, and we move on. For some reason I don't think that it is crosses the risque line into offensive territory. But it's certainly poor taste. While I object to the objectification norm, I don't think that sexually suggestive imagery should be immediately thought of as negative, aggressive, or disempowering. Case by case basis, and in this context, I don't think it's a major offense.

easy for me to say, I know.

This guy helped to land something with the technology of today's lawnmower on a comet 300 million miles away from my backyard and I'm supposed to be angry at him for wearing a "sexist" shirt? I'll go with that.
 

berzeli

Banned

Just because it isn't a problem for you doesn't mean that it isn't a problem. I find it weird that you describe the culture as problematic but don't want to change it, since it hypothetically mean that something you like also would have to change. And I find it disturbing to suggest that "why don't we teach women to "power through" adversity" as if it is due to some weakness that women don't elect to choose STEM fields and that the fault lies within the people who feel ostracised rather than the culture itself.

Being discriminatory towards women and minorities isn't giving STEM culture some competitive edge (or beneficial in any way) and I can't for the life of me understand why changing it would somehow be disastrous and/or attract fewer men to the field.


For many men, the removal of the "everyday is casual day" removes alot of the attraction to the field for men (and probably women too). People should be able to be themselves at work, college, or anywhere. That includes wearing tees that might offend a few viewers.

There is a lot of places within the STEM field (and also the astrophysics field) where everyday isn't casual day and it is not a part of any systemic culture with in these fields. And as I asked another user in this thread, would you feel the same way if his shirt had blackface/racial stereotypes or portrayed black people as being bad at maths?
 
People are so desperate to be offended these days. Why? I have my ideas, but they'd get me banned.

The fact this guy had to apologise for this is utterly pathetic
 

Wellscha

Member
See, I don't find this argument compelling at all, and why I have a problem with this whole line of argument. I as an an African American male don't find graduate school at this major SEC PWI school very "inviting" as a holder of a HBCU undergraduate degree, but I ignore this trepidation because I just accept it as a place that wasn't initially intended for me to be there (during segregation). I am an anomoly. Yet none of this seems to have affected my performance as a student at all. I've got the best grades I've ever gotten here, even with all the mildly offensive things professors/students sometimes say to me. I think I'm doing so well here precisely because they don't "expect" (subconciously) me to do well. Then I surprise them with my abilities. I'm an underdog of sorts, and they constantly underestimate my ability to thrive in their environment. I like that. I appreciate the winds blowing against me.

However, I was essentially raised to be this way. I grew up on the "white" side of my hometown, with only a handful of black friends I knew from school (none of whom lived near me). The few white friends I did have in the neighborhood either drifted away or their families outright ostracized me when I became older (one parent actually calling and saying "I don't think boys and girls should play together"). Pretty soon we were a pretty alienated family on the block, especially when one of my black friends moved into the neighborhood. Thus, being an "outsider" in the white world (and the black world, too because I grew up on the white side of town) is not only normal for me, I don't really know anything else.

I also don't find the argument compelling because of my own mother's experience. She is a "STEM woman" (and also black) and completed her computer science degree at the same HBCU I did. After graduating, she went to USC and eventually to Bell Labs and more. Certainly back in the days she was initally working, the environment was MUCH tougher for her as a black woman in the early eighties than it is for me now. But she powered through it, and is currently very successful in the field. And that's my point. Instead of trying to get everyone else to change, why don't we teach women to "power through" adversity rather than change the minds of people who are not trying to actively attempting to impede their progress. I would make a different argument if there were actually legal barriers preventing women from entering STEM fields. But I disagree with the notion that we should alter STEM culture to suit women.

I'm not trying to alter SEC PWI culture to suit me. I couldn't really care less about it (though there are some aspects I like about it). I understand that the things they do (though they may alienate me) are fun for them, and I just have no interest in entering that world. The reverse is also true. I don't want white people altering my HBCU's culture because they feel alienated- precisely for the same reason I don't want to alter theirs. Moreover, I don't want then entire field of STEM to become a bunch of suit-wearing prudes. For many men, the removal of the "everyday is casual day" removes alot of the attraction to the field for men (and probably women too). People should be able to be themselves at work, college, or anywhere. That includes wearing tees that might offend a few viewers.

Look, I understand you don't have any ill will and you're actually being sincere.but do you realize what you said in the part I bolded? is pretty much every argument that Republicans say toward every minority "you aren't working hard enough!" which completely disregards institutional racism/sexism.
 
Oh I see, instead of having a group of people work to get past a self proclaimed "barrier" it's better if another group changes their culture to pave a scenic path for them. Gotcha, completely fair and void of sexual double standards and proves how everyone wants a equal chance not just equal results.

I see. So when a group of people is faced with systemic disadvantages, they should just work extra hard to get past them, while the people who benefit from the imbalance should do nothing. Cool, makes sense.
 

entremet

Member
Apparently you haven't been reading his posts throughout this thread.

I have. I'm more in the middle personally. Shirt was bad taste, he apologized, let's move on.

I'm not seeing any radical opinions here.

The Verge headline was disgusting, though, as was him being called an asshole.
 

FStop7

Banned
Is he seriously suggesting that US soldiers are nothing more than cigar smoking dogs? What a rude person he is.

As a cigar smoking dog I am highly offended by this and will immediately be taking to Twitter to express my outrage, as well as discuss it at length during my next TEDx talk.
 

Walshicus

Member
Still not understanding your point, or did you just post that incorrect Latin to go "I know you are, but what am I?"? Because I was discussing how dismissing something just because the perceived/imagined majority doesn't agree with it as a terrible way of discussing these things.
Is it incorrect? It's been nearly fifteen years since I studied Latin but I'm sure it makes some sense (though happy to be corrected). That said, I was just reminding you that also, just because someone takes offense at something doesn't make them right.


Huh? Equality has no history, have we always been equal?
Yes we have always been equal. We just haven't acted as such.

That race has no bearing on a person's true worth is as accurate now as it was through all history.
That women have always been as deserving of the same rights of men is undeniable.
That adults have the moral right to fuck with any consenting combination of sex organs they wish has always been true.

These are facts that need no context, are universal truths.


This story is about a person who wore a shirt with scantily clad biker people on it, and how some other people think that shirt will discourage some other people from being involved in science. Are we to just discount the views of those women who clearly don't have a problem with the shirt (such as the one who made it)? Are their opinions worth less because they don't share the outrage?

The problem isn't bad t-shirts worn at ESA, it's the structural problems that *still* exist in primary to secondary school education which presume that science (and other fields) are of less interest to women and thus fail to promote them as much as they are promoted to men.




Do stuff like what? I'm not sure what you're saying I've done.
Well I'm happy chalk it up to message board misinterpretation, but it looked very much like you were talking across me and attributing a point of view or argument to me that I don't think is accurate. Maybe I'm being oversensitive now, but if you'd addressed the point *to* me with an "it looks like you're saying..." rather than responding to Berzeli with "he thinks..." I think I'd have read it better. :)
 

RiccochetJ

Gold Member
People are so desperate to be offended these days. Why? I have my ideas, but they'd get me banned.

The fact this guy had to apologise for this is utterly pathetic

I can easily see some being made uncomfortable by his shirt, and I think it was pretty awesome of him to apologize. However, the level of vitriol sent his way by Rose Eveleth and some articles about him like the one written by the Verge went into the realm of absurdity in my opinion.
 

berzeli

Banned
Can 'a shirt' be deemed unwelcoming towards women? Of course. Is this that shirt? To me, absolutely not.

Why is that, and how did you asses that?

I know I'm not as sex-negative as a lot here on GAF, but attractive ladies on a tacky shirt is just nowhere near at all a substantially unwelcoming image to me, and I'm just plain not going to see anything inherently evil about a shirt with attractive women on it, certainly nothing at all to say "women are not welcome to be doing anything that I'm doing". There are plenty of women in Matt's life that have clearly approved of his shirt and complimented as such, so that he, just as they, had no idea how "bad" the shirt supposedly was. If someone felt put-off by it they are more than free to go up to him and state as much, inform him how you feel, or perhaps even understand his side instead of immediately making him up to be a chauvinist pig mascot. This topic is very subjective and emotional, and immediately painting things this was is completely harmful and destructive to any proper discussion about what is and is not appropriate to be wearing. This shirt is not objectively dangerous, there are many point of views about just what it represents and it should not be immediately vilified in this way instead of going up and discussing it in a civil manner.

This has nothing to do with being "sex-negative" and I would advise you not to conflate the issues of sexuality and sexism. Your assertion of what his shirt entails is not a definitive one and stating that it isn't "objectively dangerous" is silly. Of course it isn't dangerous, it's a shirt. Unless you suffocate via some weird wardrobe malfunction a shirt isn't really dangerous. It is that the shirt (as I've tried to explain multiple times before) is part of a larger narrative of discrimination within the STEM field. Also as a bit of a non sequitur, how would you suggest that people who aren't on the same continent as him "go up to him and state as much"?


To me, this shirt is quite the opposite of what it's criticized for. Unwelcoming to science? No, to me this image, and Matt Taylor himself, showed that science is not just for the stereotypical image of geeks in hiked up dress pants with their shirts tucked in. There is a great deal of both men and women who see science as a field only for the stereotypical geeky nerd type image. Sure, I chuckled at how silly the shirt actually looks but that is wholly unrelated. Instead now I'm sad to see the man being monstrously shamed by the Internet outrage machine, now even encouraging a dress code, regulating science back to the personality-less stereotypical geek image that has put people off and even mocked the world of science for decades, and shaming the man for putting on a special shirt to him for his big day.

You state a lot of things as fact, remember the NASA Mohawk guy?

XMG_20120810135623_320_240.JPG


Look at him rocking that dress code. There are expectations on people in Matt Taylor's position and if people find issue with the way he behaves they should be allowed to express that. Dismissing legitimate concerns as "Internet outrage machine" is not beneficial to a proper discussion.
 

Irminsul

Member
Dismissing legitimate concerns as "Internet outrage machine" is not beneficial to a proper discussion.
You know what I don't get? Why are you defending the shitstorm that brought the man to tears? I totally get defending that there are real and legitimate concerns, and Matt Taylor did respond to these by apologising. But all that piling on him? No, sorry, that was far too much for such a relatively minor issue.
 
People really need to reign down on their outrage beyond calling it outrage for the sake of the outrage. It will come to the point that it will be a boy who cried wolf situation where some will be offended by anything and everything and not only will no one take them seriously but they will and are hurting the very causes where legitimate concerns are and common sense people are caught in the middle of outrage for the sake of outrage building upon the facets of getting the attention while unknowingly destroying legitimate issues.

This outrage where any common sense person can see did not warrant an outrage went too far. People need to stand up to the People creating these over exuberant over reactjons
 
This story is about a person who wore a shirt with scantily clad biker people on it, and how some other people think that shirt will discourage some other people from being involved in science. Are we to just discount the views of those women who clearly don't have a problem with the shirt (such as the one who made it)? Are their opinions worth less because they don't share the outrage?

The only person discounting opinions is you. I have no idea where the uniformity of opinion is supposed to come from. You wont find 100% of native americans who are offended by the redskins name you wont find 100% of black people who are offended by blackface, golliwogs or Zwarte piet, you won't find 100% of women who are offended by a "space sluts" tshirt. He is a professional man, doing a professional job, being paid what I assume is a professional salary. He acted inappropriately, got called out and apologised.
 

Opto

Banned
When people say "people like getting offended" or "getting mad just to get mad," aren't they themselves getting mad about others getting mad?
 
People really need to reign down on their outrage beyond calling it outrage for the sake of the outrage. It will come to the point that it will be a boy who cried wolf situation where some will be offended by anything and everything and not only will no one take them seriously but they will and are hurting the very causes where legitimate concerns are and common sense people are caught in the middle of outrage for the sake of outrage building upon the facets of getting the attention while unknowingly destroying legitimate issues.
People have said this for decades, and it's also already been said throughout this thread, and yet we're still doing pretty good.

The only outrage situations I see going on in this thread are in all the drive by dismissals and reactions to reactions. Every time I read someone complaining outrageously about some strawman outrage, I wonder if they even see it.
 
People have said this for decades, and it's also already been said throughout this thread, and yet we're still doing pretty good.

The only outrage situations I see going on in this thread are in all the drive by dismissals and reactions to reactions. Every time I read someone complaining outrageously about some strawman outrage, I wonder if they even see it.

I referred to the outrage outside this thread vs this person
 

richiek

steals Justin Bieber DVDs
You, sir, are ignoring the constantly repeated statement of how this shirt is a very real reminder of the underlying (and sometimes blatant) sexism that runs through STEM fields. You're ignoring the very real women in the field speaking out against this shirt. Maybe you don't like a journalist calling someone an asshole, but when it's 20 goddamn 14 and this shit keeps happening, it's going to make some people upset. (Here's her tweet about his apology https://twitter.com/roseveleth/status/533251143829565440 Now look at the shit being thrown at her)

Funny how those decrying the abuse hurled at Taylor for wearing the shirt are silent when it happens to Eveleth.
 

The Cowboy

Member
This. Such an overblown situation. It's honestly embarrassing
For me this article on Metro best sums my feelings up on how bad this whole thing has been (and continues to be):
http://metro.co.uk/2014/11/15/in-de...t-taylor-and-his-controversial-shirt-4949004/

Especially this bit.
Dressed in a plain navy hoodie, it was clear the bullies had won. They’d silenced his self-expression and made him feel uncomfortable in his own skin. Hurrah for freedom, equality and individualism.

Watching him apologise was upsetting and infuriating in equal measures.

This is a man who has just achieved something incredible, who has been made to feel stupid and small at a time he should be feeling celebratory and proud.

Anyone with eyes, ears and an ounce of common sense can see that Matt Taylor isn’t some foul-mouthed, swaggering mysognist of the Dapper Laughs mould. This is a man with a brilliant mind, yet one who by his families own admission, lacks ‘common sense’.

Ripping him to shreds for his fashion taste (or lack of) is not feminism, and it’s not right. Defending the rights and dignity of women should not involve violently lashing out at anyone who appears to have strayed over the ever-changing line of acceptability.
This whole think its a shocking turn of events, we spend years sending a space probe to land on a comet and we do something that should be a landmark historical achievement, and instead we have what seems to be more news on one of the scientists shirts than we do about the actual achievements of the mission itself.
 

berzeli

Banned
Is it incorrect? It's been nearly fifteen years since I studied Latin but I'm sure it makes some sense (though happy to be corrected). That said, I was just reminding you that also, just because someone takes offense at something doesn't make them right.

It should be vox taedui if I got it right.

But if they have taken offence, then by definition it is offensive. You're free to have another view on the matter but dismissing something because the perceived/imagined masses don't view it as a problem is not a good argument which is why I brought up the fact that might(masses) !=right.

Yes we have always been equal. We just haven't acted as such.

That race has no bearing on a person's true worth is as accurate now as it was through all history.
That women have always been as deserving of the same rights of men is undeniable.
That adults have the moral right to fuck with any consenting combination of sex organs they wish has always been true.

These are facts that need no context, are universal truths.

Your personal principles do not reflect reality. And claiming that we should look past context both social and historical is naive, insulting and completely misses the point. Are you saying that the concept gay pride, the celebration of owning your sexuality is unequal? Are you saying that black history month, the focus on an oft neglected part of US history is unequal?


This story is about a person who wore a shirt with scantily clad biker people on it, and how some other people think that shirt will discourage some other people from being involved in science. Are we to just discount the views of those women who clearly don't have a problem with the shirt (such as the one who made it)? Are their opinions worth less because they don't share the outrage?

I'm arguing that peoples voices shouldn't be dismissed, but bringing up the fact that there were women who were okay with it doesn't change the fact that there were people who weren't okay with it and you are trying very hard to dismiss their opinion.

The problem isn't bad t-shirts worn at ESA, it's the structural problems that *still* exist in primary to secondary school education which presume that science (and other fields) are of less interest to women and thus fail to promote them as much as they are promoted to men.

The problems doesn't just exist in primary or secondary schools and suggesting that it somehow is only because that in those two specific instances science isn't pimped enough to girls is the root of women not being interested in STEM fields lacks basis in reality.
 
Also I've heard (not sure how truthful it is) that his female artist friend made him this shirt for his birthday and he wore it to rep her art.
 

Opto

Banned
Every time a man is criticized: "You're oppressing his self-expression, freedom of speech, bullies!"

Every time a woman is criticized: "She shouldn't have put herself out there like that. I don't agree with her getting harassed, but feminism is plague on the world."
 
Every time a man is criticized: "You're oppressing his self-expression, freedom of speech, bullies!"

Every time a woman is criticized: "She shouldn't have put herself out there like that. I don't agree with her getting harassed, but feminism is plague on the world."
No not really. Just in your weird fantasy world.
 
Every time a man is criticized: "You're oppressing his self-expression, freedom of speech, bullies!"

Every time a woman is criticized: "She shouldn't have put herself out there like that. I don't agree with her getting harassed, but feminism is plague on the world."

You know, I agree on the whole systemic discrimination thing.

But I can't hate on a good person just because they made a mistake.
 

berzeli

Banned
You know what I don't get? Why are you defending the shitstorm that brought the man to tears? I totally get defending that there are real and legitimate concerns, and Matt Taylor did respond to these by apologising. But all that piling on him? No, sorry, that was far too much for such a relatively minor issue.

1.) There is no evidence that the tears were due to the people criticising him, it was a highly emotional moment, he could just as easily have cried since he felt that he had made a screw up during an important time in his life. Speculating why he cried is not constructive debate.Note: Matt even started following Rose after she had criticised him and I have only defended Rose. Rose has forgiven him and as far as I'm concerned that's that.

2.) Where do I defended excessive harassment?
 
The only person discounting opinions is you. I have no idea where the uniformity of opinion is supposed to come from. You wont find 100% of native americans who are offended by the redskins name you wont find 100% of black people who are offended by blackface, golliwogs or Zwarte piet, you won't find 100% of women who are offended by a "space sluts" tshirt. He is a professional man, doing a professional job, being paid what I assume is a professional salary. He acted inappropriately, got called out and apologised.

Dismissal has been occurring on both sides from the start. I'm seeing a lot of people saying "who cares get over it, it's just a shirt" and then seeing people say "who cares if a woman made it? she's just ignorant or brainwashed". Seeing her compared to a woman who supports Ray Rice. There has been opinion ranging from those who see no problem with the shirt to those who see it as an attack on women or comparable to blackface.

Unless someone does polling on the matter we really have no idea. Even then, let's say a majority of women don't find the shirt to be a bad thing. Does that mean the minority who do must then be silenced or cast aside? Or let's say a majority do find it offensive. Does that mean the minority who don't are wrong and we should attack their sensibilities? The fact is that people have a right to be heard and voice their opinions.
 

theJohann

Member
When Stanford Math, Science, and Engineering majors were asked to give their opinion on an advertising video for a prestigious MSE summer leadership conference, two videos were shown. One with a realistic male-female balance of about 3 to 1, and another balanced 50-50. Not only did more women who had watched the second video express an interest in the conference, perhaps unsurprisingly, so did more men. And while men felt that they belonged at the conference regardless of which video they had seen, women who saw the realistic version were much less convinced that they belonged at the conference.

If it is not too much trouble, could you please post a link to this?
 
It seems that large parts of these discussions center on people who feel strongly that they shouldn't have to examine how their actions and decisions can affect others.

Perhaps, but it also works in reverse, that every time this discussion comes up, people feel strongly that they can use their own personal feeling of offense to impose standards on others.

There is no hard line unfortunately we can point to, but, at least to my mind, this sort of thing is getting out of hand and the culture of 'I take offense to that, _you_ have to change' has passed by the point of being reasonable.
 
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