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Microsoft's indie developer's still haven't got their September payments.
- Thread starter H1PSTER
- Start date
The saddest part is it's not an isolated sentiment.
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
I think it's funny that he used CSH as the header image and not something from one of our XBLIG titles.
ClosingADoor
Member
To be fair, it isn't like Microsoft would be the only corporation doing this. If you are dealing with large corporations, you can bet you can wait a longer time then you want for payment as a small player. But they shouldn't say 45 days if they aren't paying in that time anyway.
So basically loool didn't read.
OT - That's quite terrible and more so this isn't the first time it has happened. Really showing that first class treatment. Hopefully all is sorted out for those affected now it's gaining some exposure.
Mister Ribs
Banned
$2? Serious question?
Sorry, but I expect to be paid for my work.
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
Ignoring that your implicit answer is apparently "yes, I don't care if I'm not paid money I'm owed," the amount in question is definitely not $2 or chump change or whatever. It's these devs lively hood, and devs plan their lives around these payments. Just because you're an indie doesn't mean your games are your second night job or whatever. Can you imagine going months without getting paid?
MastorofPuppetz
Banned
What difference does the amount or sales even matter here??? You do work you get paid, it is as simple as that...please. You really are being condescending to many good indie developers.
Lys Skygge
Member
Oh the joys of working freelance. It sucks when your income depends on incompetent people/companies.
TrebuchetGames
Member
It doesn't matter if its $2 or $200 if the payment meets the payment rules then it needs to be paid on time.
Considering how many people are now game developers full time rather than working and doing it in their spare time, this money is salary, they live on it.
I suspect those bemoaning the fact that its a few indies moaning about a few $ and that it's silly of them to complain, really should try not getting paid for a month, perhaps they might then understand what it's like to run a business and find out that money you might need isn't going to be paid on time...many companies/people can easily go bankrupt because of late payments (and this isn't just a indie problem - cash flow is every businesses problem).
Final point (as i don't want to preach to much)... it doesn't matter even if the indie doesn't need this cash to live, thats not the point, they have worked on a project and are entitled to be paid for the work that people are paying for. It doesn't matter if the game is crap, if someone has paid for it, then the provider has already got the cash in their bank account.
/that is all
Considering how many people are now game developers full time rather than working and doing it in their spare time, this money is salary, they live on it.
I suspect those bemoaning the fact that its a few indies moaning about a few $ and that it's silly of them to complain, really should try not getting paid for a month, perhaps they might then understand what it's like to run a business and find out that money you might need isn't going to be paid on time...many companies/people can easily go bankrupt because of late payments (and this isn't just a indie problem - cash flow is every businesses problem).
Final point (as i don't want to preach to much)... it doesn't matter even if the indie doesn't need this cash to live, thats not the point, they have worked on a project and are entitled to be paid for the work that people are paying for. It doesn't matter if the game is crap, if someone has paid for it, then the provider has already got the cash in their bank account.
/that is all
More like $150+
I've worked contact work almost all my professional life, and sadly stuff like this isn't rare even with big corporations.
hardcastlemccormick
Banned
Absolutely. If somebody contracts some work with me, and we set a deadline, I expect to be paid by the deadline. No excuses. Doesn't matter how low the amount is, or if your automated system screws up. It doesn't even matter if the developer isn't living on the money. You pay on time.
A company who can't get their indie games payment system sorted out is pretty disgusting. I don't know about evil, but it reflects very poorly on them and I can't really take any issue with any emotional outbursts against them.
In my opinion, the developers in question should file a class action lawsuit against Microsoft for not upholding their contracts.
Well, that's because CSH looks awesome and everyone should know more about it
Actually, in US English, check is correct.
Edit: I was as late as MS on this one.
Mr Moose
Member
This is shitty, another 2 weeks on top of the time they've already had to wait is pretty damn bad.
Looks like your "check" cleared.
Looks like your "check" cleared.
What game is yours on there?
I dunno it's one of those things were you setup a system that essentially allows for this sort of "missed" payment shenanigans.
Place where I work there is a issue that almost always creeps up during payroll week;
three people can sign off on the payroll, with two "signatures" being required before it is processed. But only one of those people (CFO) is on site as the organisation has several operating locations meaning more often than not because there are not two "signatures" on site, sometimes peoples pay is anything up to 3 days late. Every payroll day is a mad rush to get two signatures, every damn fortnight.
Structural fuck ups, it's like it's designed in. This is really problematic when the issues has been seen but there is no remedial action to fix the structure. I'm guessing the Microsoft dept that deals/pays indies is similarly enmeshed in a system that fails as a matter of course.
thewhitehawk
Member
Here's a small riddle:
How many indies does it take to screw over until they stop giving support?
Microsoft's story with indies has always been filled with spotty errors, broken promises, poor communication so much that some developers have vowed never to work with them again, like Team Meat and Phil Fish who wouldn't release Fez 2 because of Microsoft's terms.
Even after all the debacle with the controversial initial terms of publishing for the Xbox One, for independent developers, and redoing their terms multiple times until they were satisfactory, they are still being harming them in one way or the other.
Sony and Nintendo are far from being perfect when it comes to their relationships with independent developers but you rarely here about these kind of issues with independent developers. Nintendo fixed most of its issues coming from the Wii and Sony has been nurturing a lot of support and gaining an enviable number of high-profile and high-qualitty independent games on their platform. Microsoft may have given away free consoles to try to motivate more independent developers to make games for their platform, but that's a worthless gesture if they withhold payments for so long.
I just wouldn't consider making a game for a Microsoft console at this point. They just can't be trusted when it comes to their relationships with indies.
How many indies does it take to screw over until they stop giving support?
Microsoft's story with indies has always been filled with spotty errors, broken promises, poor communication so much that some developers have vowed never to work with them again, like Team Meat and Phil Fish who wouldn't release Fez 2 because of Microsoft's terms.
Even after all the debacle with the controversial initial terms of publishing for the Xbox One, for independent developers, and redoing their terms multiple times until they were satisfactory, they are still being harming them in one way or the other.
Sony and Nintendo are far from being perfect when it comes to their relationships with independent developers but you rarely here about these kind of issues with independent developers. Nintendo fixed most of its issues coming from the Wii and Sony has been nurturing a lot of support and gaining an enviable number of high-profile and high-qualitty independent games on their platform. Microsoft may have given away free consoles to try to motivate more independent developers to make games for their platform, but that's a worthless gesture if they withhold payments for so long.
I just wouldn't consider making a game for a Microsoft console at this point. They just can't be trusted when it comes to their relationships with indies.
Interesting how few GAFers know how the business world works. Microsoft is huge. Indie devs are tiny. Every day MS is late in paying is another million in interest rate on their bank account. The worst payers are usually the governments. MS is the size of a small government. Of course they're doing this on purpose, Jesus. It's the way the cookie crumbles. You don't like it, you're going to miss a huge slice of the pie. Though for my money, a bad debitor is no debitor of mine. Indies should jump ship.
ReturnOfTheRAT
Member
Sad that MS will have to be shamed into doing the right thing for indies.
Proxy Blade Zero, a 3d character action game solo-made, it's on Steam if you want to look it up (fuck XBLIG).
I'm curious if the other 2 have a similar "grace" period as part of their payment agreements with indie developers. If so, how good are they about not breaching it?
Granted non of them should be doing it, but it is more damning if they are the exception and not the rule.
As far as MS goes; if this sort of behavior is surprising to you, you either are to young to remember the 80s and 90s MS behavior with smaller companies or simply forgot. MS is a bad corporation with a history of shitty behavior, this is why I will never buy their game system. Yah they are not the only shitty corporation, but they are on a different shit level compared to Sony and Nintendo.
Granted non of them should be doing it, but it is more damning if they are the exception and not the rule.
As far as MS goes; if this sort of behavior is surprising to you, you either are to young to remember the 80s and 90s MS behavior with smaller companies or simply forgot. MS is a bad corporation with a history of shitty behavior, this is why I will never buy their game system. Yah they are not the only shitty corporation, but they are on a different shit level compared to Sony and Nintendo.
Of course that is his answer, was anyone thinking he would say something different?
Looks neat. Did they provide you with sales numbers or were yours goofed too?
Hope shit works out for you and this bad press greases the wheels.
Would anyone think he'd even respond?
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
Well, the point is that whether or not something is wrong is not connected to measuring the harm that it causes.
I believe this is wrong, it should be fixed, and it's scummy that they're doing this on a somewhat regular basis.
I also recognize that we're referring to a tiny, vanishingly small program that's about to be shut down and has been understaffed for three or four years now and whose target audience is (largely) hobbyist developers rather than people trying to make a career of it--so the evocations of "people won't make rent" is a bit of a mismatch with the general audience of the program, even though there are a few cases for whom that's true. In fact that's the essential tension here. There's a program and it's being managed for the bulk of its target audience, which are basically tinkerers who don't care much about the commercial side, but it's also attracted a variety of professionals doing top tier work and who need ongoing income from it. Even when MS was paying the bills, there were complaints from this tier of devs because their work wasn't being promoted effectively. So it's a long-simmering tension. This isn't ID@XBOX, anything on Xbox One, or XBLA. This is referring to XBLIG.
Again, it's still wrong, it should still be fixed, it's not right, it's not defensible. But defining the parameters of the harm is also important for approaching issues lucidly. In the same way, if Valve didn't pay TF2 item makers for a few months, that would be wrong, and something that should be solved, but it would also hardly make sense to respond with "WOW STEAM IS THE PRIMARY LIVELIHOOD FOR MOST OF THE GAME INDUSTRY AND VALVE ARE THIEVES". That doesn't mean standing against the people who deserve to be paid. It just means that one's sensitivity to wrong is in part based on the magnitude of the harm caused by the wrong.
One moral of the story here is that contracts that are insignificant to one partner in the contract and extremely important to the other partner in the contract are the most likely ones to have harms resulting from delivery issues. Clearly it's not right to treat smaller partners badly at all, of course, and I don't think anyone is going to disagree.
Setting aside this particular issue, I think in general MS has mismanaged their relationship with indies a number of times over the years. That's true for XBLIG, which has always been an also-ran for them, and their more professional-oriented programs. If any XBLIG devs can feasibly do so, they should be at least working to supplement their income with mobile and PC offerings (and maybe even PS Minis if that's possible at this point?) And then for the sort of more professional XBLIG devs who can qualify for ID@XBOX or Wii U or PS4 development, to look into that seriously if they plan on doing this stuff professionally rather than as a hobby. If not for their own sake, then at least so their games can still be played in a few years. I know the Zeboyd guys have already done this.
I hope MS fixes this soon and if they intend to end the program, they should just end it rather than dicking people around for no reason.
Yes, this is standard Phil Spencer answer to questions and problems.
MastorofPuppetz
Banned
What did you expect him to say?? People act like spencer is a god or something it is silly.
hydrophilic attack
Member
Between shit like this and the launch parity clause, I don't know if indie devs should even bother with staying on the Xbox platform. I'm pretty sure it pisses a lot of developers off, and in the end that means fewer games to play for Xbox-only gamers.
Death Metalist
Member
The fuck are you doing for two months, MS?? Shit's fucking sad. I hope the people who bring us joy and entertainment get payed very soon.
cyberheater
PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
Mister Ribs
Banned
My apologies to all indie devs - I forgot that you only tell the truth on internet forums, and I won't question anything or play devil's advocate again in the future. Best only to see one side of the issue anyway, right guys?
Like I said above, I didn't expect him to respond. And to be honest, I don't really care about how it looks to any of you, it's nice that somethings going to be done for these people to ensure they get paid. Pretty much all I care about.
Good grief.
This was exactly the point I was trying to make. Unfortunately I don't have a way with words like you do.
And anything over 3 sentences is usually a pain in the ass since I post mainly from my phone at work, lol.
Mister Ribs
Banned
Indeed.
hardcastlemccormick
Banned
What other side of the issue exists here? Multiple developers said they didn't get paid. The forums are filled with more. Are they all lying?