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[Spruce]

Wow, looks pretty good. I wonder if they are using the gamebryo engine still?

 

[Two Words]

The game seems to be much more colorful than the previous ones. Perhaps a little bit too colorful, in my opinion. Dirty green and brown tints can be pretty depressing to look at but isn't it how the nuclear wasteland supposed to be?
Oh well, still super excited for the game.

It would make more sense for some areas to be covered in fallout and others to not be.

 

[Zombie James]

I hope they have e3 sales again.

This year's E3 sale == last year's MSRP. Just my guess.

 

[ironcreed]

Nearly 5 million views already.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GE2BkLqMef4

 

[NoMoreTrolls]

I came.

Hopefully my PC will run this pretty well. Those graphics didn't seem too taxing, honestly.

 

[shacklesmcgee]

If Bethesda Game Studio has a team that dedicate only on game engine, then I can understand questioning of not having a graphic leap, but they don't as far as I know

Look at Id Tech 5 or Unreal Engine 4. Unreal 4 took 12 years to develop and Id Tech 5 took like 7 years since Doom 3 came out. This game probably has been in development for 7 years at most assuming some developers started working on this after Fallout 3. Considering the scale of this game, I highly doubt they have that much time to put into improving the engine much

I don't know for sure, but with 100+ people, there would have to be some people who just work on the engine/pipeline.

The development team for Skyrim was the biggest for any Bethesda game so far. In episode six of the Bethesda Podcast, Todd Howard stated that while Fallout 3 had around 70 people working on it, Skyrim saw the team increase to roughly 100.

Source

 

[Apoleptica]

I'm hyped and I'm sure ill love the game, but if that's a new engine, its not impressing me...

You must admit though, the game does have some realistic looking rust and paint peel.

 

[wowlace]

The game seems to be much more colorful than the previous ones. Perhaps a little bit too colorful, in my opinion. Dirty green and brown tints can be pretty depressing to look at but isn't it how the nuclear wasteland supposed to be?
Oh well, still super excited for the game.

A lot of people (not me) criticised F3 for being too drab, brown and grey. I think we are seeing an over correction from the devs here. I hope that the colour is limited to settlements etc and that the wastes are well.......wasted/bleak.

 

[Afrikan]

I'm glad that a dog is the main character of this one. Finally we are starting to get representation in games.

although it is a start...Dog doesn't have enough fur on...he/she's too revealing. What is this a Japanese RPG game? I think not!

 

[Apt101]

No matter how modified Gamebryo is or how much middleware powers much of the game, it's pretty easy spot. So I'd be surprised if this isn't another Gamebryo engine. In any event who gives a shit.

Edit: also game development must be a bitch. 100 people? Wow. In my realm of healthcare IT a team is large - massive even budget wise - if there are 10 developers working on a project. And a few of them are always contractors from the vendor. That's crazy to me. 100. Woof.

 

[ironcreed]

You must admit though, the game does have some realistic looking rust and paint peel.

The game looks great period. I keep watching the trailer and it is a huge leap over Fallout 3 and New Vegas while seeing it in motion. It will prove it even more so once we see it on our big screens.

 

[Solid Samus]

The game seems to be much more colorful than the previous ones. Perhaps a little bit too colorful, in my opinion. Dirty green and brown tints can be pretty depressing to look at but isn't it how the nuclear wasteland supposed to be?
Oh well, still super excited for the game.

no, it's kind of not how a nuclear wasteland is supposed to be, 200 years after the fact. and as I've said before, there's a lot more context for Fallout's post apocalypse than just what color the sky is. Part of the reason I always prefer to disable the color correction in Fallout 3 and New Vegas. The colors that are there are in this trailer are pretty muted.

A lot of people (not me) criticised F3 for being too drab, brown and grey. I think we are seeing an over correction from the devs here. I hope that the colour is limited to settlements etc and that the wastes are well.......wasted/bleak.

yeah, I mean, there's nothing bleak about any of those shots, right? it's like a stroll through a nicely maintained county park! if only they were uniform green, like pea soup... now that's atmosphere

 

[MUnited83]

Oh, ok, I 100% believe you. You said it, so it must be true.

Yeah breh, they suddenly scraped the engine they've been using since darn Morrowind and they have come up with a new one that somehow looks exactly the same and has even several of the issues of Gamebryo?
Sure, that sounds plausible. That's a "new engine" alright.

 

[Piggus]

Damn, it finally happened

$79.99 preorders

Oh, Canada.

 

[DOWN]

What's the status on the last gen speculation from that reddit info? I can't imagine releasing a specialized last gen port a year after the main game would yield enough sales to pay for it since last gen is already so slow that all the major publishers have no recently announced AAAs going cross gen. Even CoD seems done with it, so surely by late 2016, it wouldn't be worth it, right?

 

[AndyMoogle]

I think I know a bit about how games are made and I can tell you that this post ignores concepts like occlussion, that you have a world full of dynamic objects doesn't mean that you are always rendering them or simulating them only the ones that the player can see. Any modern engine should also have batching (static and dynamic) so the draw calls are reduced. If Unity can pull it off then Bethesda should have an engine that can take advantage of that too.

Besides the problem is not the lack of lightmapping, the problems is that they are not even using modern shaders (PBR) so the models could look better with the illumination of the scene nor improved animations.

But of course, unless any of us have insider information this is only amateur talk.

You mean culling, which he mentions. Occlusion does not mean what you think it means.

 

[Obliterator]

I don't know for sure, but with 100+ people, there would have to be some people who just work on the engine/pipeline.



Source

For a developer making massive AAA games a 100 person dev team is TINY. I'm blown away every time I see the figure at just how small Bethesda actually is

 

[aravuus]

Edit: also game development must be a bitch. 100 people? Wow. In my realm of healthcare IT a team is large - massive even budget wise - if there are 10 developers working on a project. And a few of them are always contractors from the vendor. That's crazy to me. 100. Woof.

Managing a 100-person team must be an unbelievable pain in the ass. I'm working on a software project with three other guys during the summer, we just started and we're already having trouble trying to share the workload smartly.

We're still students and this is our first time actually working on a big project though, in my defense lol

For a developer making massive AAA games a 100 person dev team is TINY. I'm blown away every time I see the figure at just how small Bethesda actually is

Tiny?

 

[Lautaro]

You also are basing that off newer engines. We don't know how old this engine they are using is. Once again until we know specifics about the engine trying to say "well this engine uses all these, so they should to" is what you are really saying. Which I already said isn't wrong, but don't be mad when somebody tells you that its annoying. The road goes both ways, if you want to criticize then you should be able to accept all criticism back. I, along with others, find it annoying that people complain/criticize before they know specifics about things. If you cannot accept that, then you should not criticize in the first place.

I will defend myself if people criticize me for having an opinion, I'm not the one using words like "shallow, bitchy, whiny" or many others. If that's annoying for you, bad luck, if you can't counter my arguments then just ignore them.

And yes, I expect that a game that is being released in 2015 by a big AAA developer includes features of the new engines or at least take the time to record better animations. Is the least we could expect IMO.

 

[PurpleSquid]

yeah, I mean, there's nothing bleak about any of those shots, right? it's like a stroll through a nicely maintained county park! if only they were uniform green, like pea soup... now that's atmosphere

why are you being so hostile? i don't agree with him but he makes a fair point.

 

[wowlace]

no, it's kind of not how a nuclear wasteland is supposed to be, 200 years after the fact. and as I've said before, there's a lot more context for Fallout's post apocalypse than just what color the sky is. Part of the reason I always prefer to disable the color correction in Fallout 3 and New Vegas. The colors that are there are in this trailer are pretty muted.


yeah, I mean, there's nothing bleak about any of those shots, right? it's like a stroll through a nicely maintained county park! if only they were uniform green, like pea soup... now that's atmosphere

Funny. You're in a mood today aren't you?

 

[zulfate]

You must admit though, the game does have some realistic looking rust and paint peel.

really loving how full it looks, lots of things all over to grab and look at. watching the trailer a few more times and i think i love the "slowly rebuilding society" weight to the city

 

[Obliterator]

Managing a 100-person team must be an unbelievable pain in the ass. I'm working on a software project with three other guys during the summer, we just started and we're already having trouble trying to share the workload smartly.

We're still students and this is our first time actually working on a big project though, in my defense lol



Tiny?

For big AAA games? Yeah, very small.

For example Assassins Creed each year has around 1000 people working on it in some capacity.

 

[Apt101]

Managing a 100-person team must be an unbelievable pain in the ass. I'm working on a software project with three other guys during the summer, we just started and we're already having trouble trying to share the workload smartly.

We're still students and this is our first time actually working on a big project though, in my defense lol



Tiny?

Yea man I am now just an network/systems engineer, though I have still have a development cert for a certain healthcare IT suite. But I work in concert with various development teams constantly and still have to do some light programming in c#. In my entire data center, three floors, we have something like 60 developers, 20-ish DBA's and ETL devs, and 30-ish engineers. Then comes security due to HIPAA which impacts all of us, and they have their own people that have to work with each individual team. Oh yea, and interface engine people because healthcare IT demands we support super-old legacy stuff and tons of disparate systems all interacting with the same secure data.

And all of us are typically working in small teams on various projects with our own managers. I could just imagine how crazy it would be trying to manage a team of 100 developers on a single product. How many technical managers would they need for something like that? Boggles my mind. Not an industry I would want to mess with.

 

[Croatoan]

I think I know a bit about how games are made and I can tell you that this post ignores concepts like occlussion, that you have a world full of dynamic objects doesn't mean that you are always rendering them or simulating them only the ones that the player can see. Any modern engine should also have batching (static and dynamic) so the draw calls are reduced. If Unity can pull it off then Bethesda should have an engine that can take advantage of that too.

Besides the problem is not the lack of lightmapping, the problems is that they are not even using modern shaders (PBR) so the models could look better with the illumination of the scene nor improved animations.

But of course, unless any of us have insider information this is only amateur talk.

I mentioned this... Occlusion culling, both dynamic and static have performance costs. Line of sight culling does as well. Nothing is free.

Furthermore, depending on the engine, only meshes under a certain poly count can be culled (its like 1000 polys for unity i believe).

Beths games cannot be lightmapped due to the non static lighting...

I don't have an idea why they are not using pbr or better lighting.

 

[shacklesmcgee]

For big AAA games? Yeah, very small.

For example Assassins Creed each year has around 1000 people working on it in some capacity.

I wouldn't say a 1000 people worked on Unity, that must be for all Assassin's Creed games

 

[Obliterator]

I wouldn't say a 1000 people worked on Unity, that must be for all Assassin's Creed games

Black Flag had a 900 person development team comprising of 7 studios.

Bungie has 500 employees working on Destiny

Treyarch has 300 people working on Black Ops 3

Dice has over 500 employees working on Battlefield

I don't think you guys have any idea how many people work on AAA games. A 100 person team for Skyrim is fucking mind boggling

Edit: CD Projekt Red that is a "small" developer that just released an open world game Witcher 3, has 230 employees.

 

[Protomanx13]

I wouldn't say a 1000 people worked on Unity, that must be for all Assassin's Creed games

1000 is a little high considering Ubisoft Montreal only has 2700~ employee. But looking at other developer with graphical leap engine, Naughty Dog has 250~ and Bungie has 500~ employee, so...100+ does kinda seem small.

edit: Naughty Dog games are very linear like what object can move and etc so it doesn't stress the hardware as much as games like Fallout

 

[Piggus]

Just a little reminder of what previous gen Fallout looked like:

Fallout 4 is a generational step forward from that muddy, brown mess. Seriously, just because a game doesn't trounce everything visually doesn't mean it looks bad.

 

[Syph Medwes]

Oh, Canada.

shit i was afraid of that

 

[shacklesmcgee]

Black Flag had a 900 person development team comprising of 7 studios.

Bungie has 500 employees working on Destiny

Treyarch has 300 people working on Black Ops 3

Dice has over 500 employees working on Battlefield

I don't think you guys have any idea how many people work on AAA games. A 100 person team for Skyrim is fucking mind boggling

wow, didn't know that. Thanks

The probably hired a few people after Skyrim, but that would still only be 150. I wonder what the graph of developer size vs jankiness would look like...

1000 is a little high considering Ubisoft Montreal only has 2700~ employee. But looking at other developer with graphical leap engine, Naughty Dog has 250~ and Bungie has 500~ employee, so...100+ does kinda seem small

Well I know Ubisoft uses their studios worldwide on projects too

 

[Obliterator]

1000 is a little high considering Ubisoft Montreal only has 2700~ employee. But looking at other developer with graphical leap engine, Naughty Dog has 250~ and Bungie has 400~ employee, 100+ is kinda small

7 studios built ACIV, 900 people, 16 percent of all of Ubisofts employees

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/90...eed-iv-black-flag-says-director/1100-6415599/

 

[njean777]

I will defend myself if people criticize me for having an opinion, I'm not the one using words like "shallow, bitchy, whiny" or many others. If that's annoying for you, bad luck, if you can't counter my arguments then just ignore them.

And yes, I expect that a game that is being released in 2015 by a big AAA developer includes features of the new engines or at least take the time to record better animations. Is the least we could expect IMO.

There is nothing to counter, you said yourself until we know more about the engine this is all amateur talk. So once again we are back and square one. You have no idea what engine they are using or what it can do.

 

[Lautaro]

I mentioned this... Occlusion culling, both dynamic and static have performance costs. Line of sight culling does as well. Nothing is free.

Furthermore, depending on the engine, only meshes under a certain poly count can be culled (its like 1000 polys for unity i believe).

Beths games cannot be lightmapped due to the non static lighting...

Sure, nothing is free but the cost of occlussion culling is minimal compared to the actual cost of rendering the elements.

I just don't see what's the point of mentioning it as a defense for the current state of the graphics. Its not even the assets the problem because they actually look good, the problem is that they seem to be using the same old shaders/illumination of past games made with the "Creation" engine, that's why they look "old gen" IMO. Also the animation are as stiff as past games, how does occlussion culling has anything to do with that? maybe their engine doesn't support PBR nor inverse kinematics? I don't know.

Like I said, this is only amateur talk because none of us have insider information but no one should get upset for a little of speculation.

EDIT:

There is nothing to counter, you said yourself until we know more about the engine this is all amateur talk. So once again we are back and square one. You have no idea what engine they are using or what it can do.

No one here knows but somehow I'm the only one that shouldn't speculate about it according to you. You are being disingenious so I can't take you seriously anymore.

 

[Lulubop]

Just a little reminder of what previous gen Fallout looked like:




Fallout 4 is a generational step forward from that muddy, brown mess. Seriously, just because a game doesn't trounce everything visually doesn't mean it looks bad.

Even Skyrim was a huge leap up from the Fallouts, not a huge accomplishment.

Skyrim to thia game tho?

 

[ironcreed]

Just a little reminder of what previous gen Fallout looked like:




Fallout 4 is a generational step forward from that muddy, brown mess. Seriously, just because a game doesn't trounce everything visually doesn't mean it looks bad.

Indeed. I was playing New Vegas on the 360 tonight and Fallout 4 is leaps and bounds prettier. I just don't know what people were expecting. I cannot wait for this to release so we can see how much of leap it really is.

 

[g23]

What if the game is a solid 60 fps. Or atleast more stable performance wise than pass fallout games. Would that be a suitable trade off for the gimped graphics?

 

[Fret]

Even Skyrim was a huge leap up from the Fallouts, not a huge accomplishment.

Skyrim to thia game tho?

vanilla skyrim looks awful now, and didn't look very good when it came out either

 

[MattyG]

Just a little reminder of what previous gen Fallout looked like:




Fallout 4 is a generational step forward from that muddy, brown mess. Seriously, just because a game doesn't trounce everything visually doesn't mean it looks bad.

Yeah, people really seem to be losing perspective when they say stuff like "this looks last gen".

 

[LoganKnight4949]

Meanwhile on 4Chan

 

[Hendrick's]

What if the game is a solid 60 fps. Or atleast more stable performance wise than pass fallout games. Would that be a suitable trade off for the gimped graphics?

If it was 1080/60 I think many here would change their tune (console gamers anyway), but I see zero chance of that happening.

 

[Lulubop]

vanilla skyrim looks awful now, and didn't look very good when it came out either

And yet it looks much better than the fallout games. It's not a huge accomplishment and that was a previous gen game.

 

[shacklesmcgee]

Meanwhile on 4Chan

Meanwhile on GAF....

That is a lesbian couple and you can't convince me otherwise.

 

[Hendrick's]

Fallout 4 is a generational step forward from that muddy, brown mess. Seriously, just because a game doesn't trounce everything visually doesn't mean it looks bad.

More like a hop than a leap. People were just hoping Bethesda would ditch their shoddy engine once and for all and embrace some modern tech. Some disappointment is understandable.

 

[Protomanx13]

7 studios built ACIV, 900 people, 16 percent of all of Ubisofts employees

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/90...eed-iv-black-flag-says-director/1100-6415599/

wow ,that is insane. Though I wonder if that is including game tester, voice actor for different language and etc. Even then, 900 is insane. Guess that explains why these games have like 30 min of credit scene

Thanks for the info

 

[Croatoan]

Sure, nothing is free but the cost of occlussion culling is minimal compared to the actual cost of rendering the elements.

I just don't see what's the point of mentioning it as a defense for the current state of the graphics. Its not even the assets the problem because they actually look good, the problem is that they seem to be using the same old shaders/illumination of past games made with the "Creation" engine, that's why they look "old gen" IMO. Also the animation are as stiff as past games, how does occlussion culling has anything to do with that? maybe their engine doesn't support PBR nor inverse kinematics? I don't know.

Like I said, this is only amateur talk because none of us have insider information but no one should get upset for a little of speculation.

My point was that maybe they had to make trade offs. Does gamebryo have baked occlusion culling? If so i believe dynamic objects can't be culled only static ones. I know they agressively lod and cull that way though.

How can you tell that they are not using pbr or ik?

 

[Lautaro]

More like a hop than a leap. People were just hoping Bethesda would ditch their shoddy engine once and for all and embrace some modern tech. Some disappointment is understandable.

Yeah, that doesn't mean we are not hyped too. I really want to go back to Fallout but I want to be there day one and not wait for some mods to come out first.

My point was that maybe they had to make trade offs. Does gamebryo have baked occlusion culling? If so i believe dynamic objects can't be culled only static ones. I know they agressively lod and cull that way though.

How can you tell that they are not using pbr or ik?

I'm only speculating just like you. Physical based rendering makes a big difference: metal looks like metal and lights spreads more realistically so the models actually look "there" (hard to find the words). IK is a bit wilder speculation but some pages back there were some screenshots where a character was clearly floating so the speculation is that they are not using IK to have the feet stick to the ground or something else.

Maybe Creation/Gamebryo doesn't support it? that would explain a lot and it could be worse because that would mean they haven't upgrade it despite making so much money with it.

 

[Obliterator]

wow ,that is insane. Though I wonder if that is including game tester, voice actor for different language and etc. Even then, 900 is insane

Thanks for the info

Yeah I'm sure it includes everyone who even touched it in some capacity, but the dev teams that make these AAA titles is huge. If really only 100 people built Skyrim like Bethesda claims, thats almost nothing short of miraculous.

Like I said earlier even "small" CD Projekt Red is now 230 people

 

[shacklesmcgee]

My point was that maybe they had to make trade offs. Does gamebryo have baked occlusion culling? If so i believe dynamic objects can't be culled only static ones. I know they agressively lod and cull that way though.

How can you tell that they are not using pbr or ik?

It's hard to explain, but the metals don't have the right PBR look to them, they don't shine/reflect properly from the surrounding light.

from PBR in Practice

 

[Japanmanx3]

Never been into Fallout but I peeped the trailer. The skybox in shine of those scenes reminded me of the Destiny Earth Cosmodrome.