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Iwata tweets about the Digital Event reactions.

Why yes, it most certainly is.

Wii was what it was because HOLY SHIT, did the tech jump at the time cost a shit-ton of money that Nintendo didn't have at the time that prototyping started. Sony and Microsoft nearly lost their shirts that generation if they hadn't extended it for an extra few years to finally make some damn money. The tech for something powerful wasn't cost-effective (or power-efficient). Nintendo knew it and threw the dice that a controller would be enough, because given their situation at the end of the GameCube generation, they didn't have much of a choice. And lo and behold...

Wii U was them looking at console design from a "controller first" perspective because it was so successful for them the last go around. I mean, if you're successful with something, you want to try again, right? Selling things to consumers is a lot like gambling, if you're on a "hot streak", you try and make it work again. And they rolled a snake eyes this time. 3DS was the same situation, but faired better after a stumble at the start.

People extrapolating an ideology from these 2 consoles along with some misinterpreted quotes from Nintendo are really just trying to establish a narrative that they wanted to exist before it was actually relevant.

People have been saying Nintendo likes "weak hardware" since the GameCube, back when they actually were on par technologically with their competitors. The myth began just because they didn't release a spec sheet and gamers thought that meant they have something embarrassing to hide. And every word out of Nintendo's mouth about it since has been twisted into Nintendo refusing to consider high-spec hardware.



You forget one of their other major philosophies, though: native backwards compatibility.

PowerPC chipsets were something they were saddled with in the design of the Wii U because it was the only way to reasonably achieve a backwards compatible design with Wii. And coming off of a console generation where you sold 100 million consoles and a shit-ton of games, backwards compatibility was most assuredly a consideration in the design phase.

But at higher capabilities, PowerPC falters at power efficiency, so they made it as low-spec as they could get a PowerPC chip to go with rendering games in 1080p at a reasonable fidelity. It still uses more power than the Wii does by a good country mile.

But at this point, with so few Wii U owners, native compatibility with their old games isn't a consideration they have to make. And other chipset architectures have made HUGE in-roads in the balance of performance vs. power efficiency. Heck, x86 chips aren't the greatest at that, but Intel still does better at this than PowerPC does when you get into the higher performance rates.

I dunno, there are plenty of things they could have done w/ the PowerPC core they ended up using. Firstly, there could have been more of them. They also used a 45nm process when 32nm was already available and in use by IBM. A smaller node could have let them squeez a few extra Mhz out of the thing.

While BC was definitely a priority w/ Wii U (understandably), so was making a small and unobtrusive console that moms wouldn't be offended at the sight of. Whether this goal has changed w/ the NX home console is a different question, but Iwata recently told investors that even home consoles should not be sucking huge amounts of electricity, so it's still in their minds to whatever extent.

I think their best course of action is to make a boxier Gamecube-esque case for NX. That would go a long way to improve airflow.
 

Lumyst

Member
Terrell, I remember somewhere there's a quote from Iwata about not caring about "beefier" specs, or rather, what the makers of the higher-specced consoles are doing, so I took that to mean that, going forwards, they will not aim to put their machines substantially above whatever the other hardware makers are doing, if at all. In that sense, buying a Nintendo machine, means that the user has chosen to forgo valuing the highest specs, which in turn should cultivate an audience who does not need the games to be designed for higher specs/"justify" high specs, since for the user, the highest specs isn't what they value (otherwise why buy the Nintendo machine at all). I've seen even Nintendo gamers dissing on the graphics of certain Nintendo games, for instance, but maybe some of the games shown in this Digital Event seemed a little too "low budget or made in short time" even for the specs of the machines, haha
 

Hiltz

Member
Terrell, I remember somewhere there's a quote from Iwata about not caring about "beefier" specs, or rather, what the makers of the higher-specced consoles are doing, so I took that to mean that, going forwards, they will not aim to put their machines substantially above whatever the other hardware makers are doing, if at all. In that sense, buying a Nintendo machine, means that the user has chosen to forgo valuing the highest specs, which in turn should cultivate an audience who does not need the games to be designed for higher specs/"justify" high specs, since for the user, the highest specs isn't what they value (otherwise why buy the Nintendo machine at all). I've seen even Nintendo gamers dissing on the graphics of certain Nintendo games, for instance, but maybe some of the games shown in this Digital Event seemed a little too "low budget or made in short time" even for the specs of the machines, haha

"Only expanding on exiting hardware is dull." - Iwata, March 2015

"What the other companies are doing makes business sense, but it's boring. The same games appear on every system. At Nintendo we want an environment where game creators can collaborate and think of ideas for games that could have never happened before." - Miyamoto, Nov 2014

"A unique software experience can always be realized with unique hardware that has a unique interface. That is why I believe Nintendo is, and will be, sticking to these dedicated gaming machines." - Miyamoto, August 2014

"We just don't care too much about what other companies are doing or are trying to do. Our primary focus is to think about and actually carry out something which [another] company's hardware can never realize." - Iwata, June 2013

" From my perspective, with regard to the more powerful hardware systems, to me what still remains incredibly important is the developers maintaining a focus on creating unique games because if all that everyone does is uses the enhanced power to create more and more games that look and feel the same, then all that it becomes is a competition about the power of the hardware rather than the uniqueness of the experience. That, to me, is where developers should be devoting their effort." - Miyamoto, June 2013

“it’s not just about power alone, but how to balance what you’re offering in terms of power with cost. I’m very happy with the balance that we’ve been able to strike. What’s left is how developers use it.” - Miyamoto, June 2012

"We just don’t care what kind of “more beef” console Microsoft and Sony might produce in 2013." - Iwata, June 2012
 

Oregano

Member
I dunno, there are plenty of things they could have done w/ the PowerPC core they ended up using. Firstly, there could have been more of them. They also used a 45nm process when 32nm was already available and in use by IBM. A smaller node could have let them squeez a few extra Mhz out of the thing.

While BC was definitely a priority w/ Wii U (understandably), so was making a small and unobtrusive console that moms wouldn't be offended at the sight of. Whether this goal has changed w/ the NX home console is a different question, but Iwata recently told investors that even home consoles should not be sucking huge amounts of electricity, so it's still in their minds to whatever extent.

I think their best course of action is to make a boxier Gamecube-esque case for NX. That would go a long way to improve airflow.

How much space/energy would ditching the disc drive save?

EDIT: Just looking at the Wii U the disc drive must take up around 2/3 of the space inside.
 

Lumyst

Member
"We just don’t care what kind of “more beef” console Microsoft and Sony might produce in 2013." - Iwata, June 2012[/B]

Ah, there's the one :p I understand what Terrell means now though, that Nintendo hasn't said they "don't care" about higher specs, so I chose my words wrong. The manifestation of what Nintendo values about hardware/software design though, lead me to think "don't care" applied to specs, but "don't care" is a stronger phrase than they ever used about specs. It more had to do with designing their machines with different values than how the other console makers design their machines.
 

Mononoke

Banned
Final Fantasy XV was first shown at E3 2006 and it's still not out yet 9 years later. Who knows when FF7 remake and Shenmue 3 are coming out.

Doesn't really matter, they were still big moments at the conference, and were aspects of what made the conference good. We can talk all day about content coming out this year, or in the near future. But conferences are part spectacle/performance.

Apart of Direct's failure wasn't the content coming out in 2015 or 2016. That is a part of it (it's a bigger issue with Wii U's support and how people perceive Nintendo's support leading out of Wii U's life cycle). But the Direct etc. was poorly structured/paced, and lacked any WOW moments. It was a disappointment on all fronts (both as content on the horizon/future, as well just being a conference).

People keep bringing up that Shenmue and FF7 could be years off, or never come out. But they are still projects being worked on. And there is nothing wrong with a company letting people know, what investments they have coming. Or what they are investing in. Even if they showed nothing, people would have been happy to know if Nintendo was investing in a new AAA Metroid title. Nintendo just announcing they are actually investing in this, would have been worthy news. And would have been welcome. Even if it was 4 years off into the future.

It's really strange to see people so focused on content having to be out this year, like suddenly that is a qualifier for being shown at E3. People have the right to be critical of Sony specifically, because they do have an issue with titles this year. It was a rough year. But E3 conferences themselves are a time for companies to tell people what they are investing in, as well as showing off content that will be ready this year, or the next (or even further down the line). It's always been that way. Hell, E3 used to be less about consumers, and more about investors/the market.
 
Well making 3DS games is definitely much much cheaper (and faster) than making Wii U games. HD games are incredibly expensive and resource heavy, where as 3ds games are less so. So of course it was easier for Nintendo to rally more resources to bridge up the 3DS than the Wii U

Also it helped that third parties were also on board the 3DS, where as Nintendo has pretty much had to shoulder the Wii U software lineup by itself.

Nope, third-parties were starting to cancel and shaft support for 3DS before the price cut. Remember Assassin's Creed and Saint's Row? They were cancelled due to it's initial underperformance. Some others were delayed until situation could improve, like Sega's Shinobi. Situation actually started to turn around after the price cut decision.

Until 2013, Ubisoft, Activision and Warner were still supporting Wii U with their multiplat stuff, when that same year, they bombed hard and later decided to shaft support entirely. A price drop to 250 would be not only a boost sales alternative but a counter meassure against PS4 and XBO launches as well. Yes, they decided to keep their bank roll safe, but lost third-parties and significant market share in result, which they'll have to struggle to bring them back.

Wii U has sold 9 million units. GameCube sold 22 million. N64 sold 33 million.

Wii U was unprofitable at launch. Cutting $100 off the already-too-low price means they could spend one billion dollars just to push the Wii U up to GameCube levels of failure. Two billion would push them up to an N64-level failure. How many billions does Nintendo have, ten? Surely they can part with three or four of them to recapture the glory days of the Super Nintendo (assuming the rest of the world plays along, when even EAD is having trouble justifying the gamepad).

The 3DS was overpriced at launch, because Iwata overestimated the appeal of 3D and got greedy. When he realized the mistake he trimmed the fat off the price and while he was at it he pushed it into an aggressive money-losing position (just to make sure it got the job done). And the goal was to make "the next Nintendo DS". The 3DS was in a better position for a price cut, and had a more-obvious plan to make the money back.

Wii U is much better off accepting it's position as a "niche" console, and defining it's success as "having lots of great games" and "not bankrupting the company".

I'm a huge fan of your posts, but this time I can't agree. Sony did a similar maneuver with PS3 when they knew it was a disaster and the only way to turn around was slashing the price and sacrifice their bank roll to keep it's market relevance. Sure, they bleed a hell lot of money, but in return they managed to keep it's market share and consumer trust intact. No secret why PS4's expectations and sales got so high. And they're making a profit on it.

Nintendo might kept their bank roll safety, but at the cost of a failed system, third-party support mass abandonment, shaken credibility and alienated userbase. It's definitively not a wise move to choose financial stability at expense of it's credibility, image and appeal. Sometimes you need to spend money to make money, austerity driven policies aren't always the right path.

Market share is a terribly fickle thing, even when you have a lower price point. And given what Nintendo knew it was going up against, I'd imagine that they looked at the Wii U and determined that further losses during their years in the red would not net them enough money to offset it. Market share at the expense of financial stability is sometimes not a great thing, especially with where Nintendo was at the time.

Sony had a huge hit with PlayStation 2, but the expense of manufacturing it ended up with Sony actually making very little money from that entire generation, considering its high user base. And then PS3 cratered all of that money they made in totality, and likely wouldn't have made any of it back. And the whole reason we got such an elongated generation last time is they were finally making money at the end of it that they both desperately needed.

There's a risk-reward issue with loss leader strategies, and if the loss isn't offset by the gains, you can't blame a corporation for thinking twice about it instead of just prepping for the next attempt.

They not only lost it's market share, as lost third-party support, costumer trust and userbase loyalty, as it's becoming more and more alienated. This was pretty much the reason for why Sega failed and left the market. They failed badly with Sega Saturn, despite it's amazing games on it, but the damage was made to it's credibility and alienated gamers to invest into Dreamcast, another great machine with great games. It's image was already shaken because how badly they mismanaged Sega Saturn and even with Dreamcast being groundbreaking for the time, that wasn't enough. Nintendo is following a similar path, as Wii U is a failure and might damage costumer confidence for it's next system.
 
Doesn't really matter, they were still big moments at the conference, and were aspects of what made the conference good. We can talk all day about content coming out this year, or in the near future. But conferences are part spectacle/performance.

Apart of Direct's failure wasn't the content coming out in 2015 or 2016. That is a part of it (it's a bigger issue with Wii U's support and how people perceive Nintendo's support leading out of Wii U's life cycle). But the Direct etc. was poorly structured/paced, and lacked and WOW moments. It was a disappointment on all fronts (both as content on the horizon/future, as well just being a conference).

People keep bringing up that Shenmue and FF7 could be years off, or never come out. But they are still projects being worked on. And there is nothing wrong with a company letting people know, what investments they have coming. Or what they are investing in. Even if they showed nothing, people would have been happy to know if Nintendo was investing in a new AAA Metroid title. Nintendo just announcing they are actually investing in this, would have been worthy news. And would have been welcome. Even if it was 4 years off into the future.
Yup. Because of the Direct I only see so much left in the Wii U. What else is there? Xenoblade wow'd me last year. Yoshi WW wow'd me last year. All I saw was last years games with a few things that I already saw coming(StarFox, Shin Migami), or thought was super lame (Amiibo AC, Metroid). They showed me there is nothing down the pipe, and that sucks.
 

dangeraaron10

Unconfirmed Member
The same is not true of FF7 and Shenmue 3. Both of those games are coming to PC as well (at least)

Woah woah WOAH

FF7 remake has a good chance of coming to PC? Excellent! PS4 looked pretty tempting there for a moment but FF7 on PC would be a godsend for me. Not much else on PS4 at all that I'd consider a must have for me other than FF7.

PC MASTER RACE!

With Nintendo as a good companion console, of course...
 

ozfunghi

Member
You absolutely can, but you're certainly buying deeply in to the hype machine at that point. I don't think it's a secret that the hype cycle helped foster the current state of the console industry, driven almost entirely by huge AAA blockbuster titles.

The problem is, that with Sony and Microsoft, gamers know what to expect.

Nintendo is both creatively and as a business, much more finicky. They might come out with a new peripheral completely out of left field, they may bury one of their most beloved franchises for a decade, they may swoop up a canned 3rd part exclusive... You just don't know. If it makes sense for one company to connect with its gamers, to let them know their investment is not wasted, to show potential buyers that there is no need to worry about content coming in the future... that company would have to be Nintendo.

Had Nintendo shown at E3 two years ago, that gamers could expect Bayonetta 2, Fatal Frame 5, Devils Third etc... i'm sure a good portion of gamers would have jumped in even if those games were still two years away. But instead they were too busy focussing on Donkey Kong, while there were already more than enough platformers available, or on their way. The fact that Nintendo doesn't see the difference between E3 and any other -announced 2 days in advance- Nintendo Direct, just shows that they have no idea what they are doing.
 

kunonabi

Member
Aside from the twin oddities of AC:AF and MP:FF, I am coming around to the idea that Nintendo actually has a pretty good line-up for E3 but just really screwed up their presentation with the Digital Event.

Pretty much, I'm buying practically everything they're offering aside from Mario Tennis, Metroid, and pokemon mystery dungeon. This is in addition to several 3DS games I was already planning on getting. The messaging and padding instead of focusing on the wide range of titles was just a bad idea. If you're going to make it that obvious that you're moving on from the Wii U you might has well have talked about NX stuff anyway. You would have thought they would have tried to build off Splatoon's momentum instead of basically telling everyone that the Wi U is officially an afterthought.
 

Terrell

Member
They not only lost it's market share, as lost third-party support, costumer trust and userbase loyalty, as it's becoming more and more alienated. This was pretty much the reason for why Sega failed and left the market. They failed badly with Sega Saturn, despite it's amazing games on it, but the damage was made to it's credibility and alienated gamers to invest into Dreamcast, another great machine with great games. It's image was already shaken because how badly they mismanaged Sega Saturn and even with Dreamcast being groundbreaking for the time, that wasn't enough. Nintendo is following a similar path, as Wii U is a failure and might damage costumer confidence for it's next system.

Dreamcast was cut short because the financial loss they incurred from (wait for it) loss-leading on the Saturn, investing too much money in too many games that didn't sell because of their marketshare with the Saturn and poorer management of their console business that would even put Nintendo to shame.

Dreamcast was actually winning their marketshare and consumer confidence back since it was selling MUCH better than Saturn was year-over-year and, had its life not have been cut short out of necessity, would have likely edged either Nintendo or Microsoft into a 3rd-place position. But the writing was already on the wall for Sega after Sega CD, 32X and then the Saturn, the true nail in Sega's coffin.

Consumer confidence was on the rebound for them, but they just needed a much stronger rebound to stay in the console manufacturing arena.

Nintendo is not in Sega's position. Any rebound will be considered a positive one and won't put them at risk of bankruptcy like Sega did by giving it one more try. All it takes is a better approach to rebuild marketshare, "consumer confidence" is rarely based on the past and has so much more to do with the present. It might start slow, but it would at least be an improvement, and that's really what they need, ANY improvement on their market position.

Customer loyalty hasn't exactly helped them much this go around, has it? Customer loyalty is more of a retailer thing, though. When a product is good and the right price, people will buy it.

Again, look at Sony. They went from 150 million very happy customers in a generation where they basically gave consumers exactly what they wanted on the regular to losing almost half of that number on the next go around, most of which didn't come back until near the end of the PS3's extended life cycle. The amount of "loyal customers" a consumer electronics company has, even ones in the computer entertainment business, are closer to being a statistical anomaly than a bankable repeat market.
Basically, you say "loyal customers", I hear "hardcore niche customers".
 

th4tguy

Member
The problem from the way I see it, is that Nintendo had a lot more to prove when it comes to where Wii U is standing.

Once Iwata mentioned NX, it caused many people to start speculating. It raised a lot of questions. Will Wii U be replaced next year already, considering its poor sales? We know software is coming this year, but what about next year? Will Wii U be dropped like Wii was in it's last years? Zelda U is delayed, does that mean it will come for NX as well?

Sure, we knew that there would be no Zelda or NX talk this E3. But they could talk about some of the software(if there are any?) that is coming for Wii U next year. I mean, last year they showed a lot of stuff that is coming this year. That built confidence and excitement for Wii U as a platform. It also meant at the time, that software would not be a problem for another year.

Instead, we are at a point where raised questions are unanswered and we will have a lot more speculation about whether Wii U is dead after 2015. Until or if they do a direct to show that there are some quality titles on its way next year for Wii U, a lot of people who are on the fence, will wait and see what NX will bring next year.

If the NX comes out next year the WiiU would be out for 4 years at that point. It's only 1 year short of a normal cycle and a long cycle for a system that sold as poorly as the WiiU. Nintendo themselves have dropped systems faster.

I feel like (not saying this about you) that a lot of people who talk like this about a system JUST coming out do that because they only JUST bought them.
 
Dreamcast was cut short because the financial loss they incurred from (wait for it) loss-leading on the Saturn, investing too much money in too many games that didn't sell because of their marketshare with the Saturn and poorer management of their console business that would even put Nintendo to shame.

Dreamcast was actually winning their marketshare and consumer confidence back since it was selling MUCH better than Saturn was year-over-year and, had its life not have been cut short out of necessity, would have likely edged either Nintendo or Microsoft into a 3rd-place position. But the writing was already on the wall for Sega after Sega CD, 32X and then the Saturn, the true nail in Sega's coffin.

Consumer confidence was on the rebound for them, but they just needed a much stronger rebound to stay in the console manufacturing arena.

No, it wasn't. Dreamcast sales were underwhelming from start to finish, especially in Japan and Europe, N64 outsold it many times by that time, and PS2's release was the nail in the coffin. You're overestimating it's performance a lot. They only sold 10.6 million in it's lifetime, which is a failure and was very unlikely they would manage to compete head on against Microsoft and Nintendo. Third-parties would probably leave the system, like Capcom starting to port it's DC titles to PS2, selling better than DC in the end, and Dreamcast became obsolete performance-wise after GCN and Xbox joined the game. It would be at best a niche system for Sega's fanboys.

Despite the amazing games it got, superior specs to anything at the time (N64 and PSX?) and a considerable third-party support, it didn't managed to grab the market.
Like you said, their awful management of their previous systems drove away costumer confidence. You talk about financial failures, but Dreamcast had, perhaps, one of the biggest ones, which was Shenmue, a game with an astronomical budget for the time and a bet to mass sell the system. I didn't work and took a massive blow into Sega's pocket.

Nintendo is not in Sega's position. Any rebound will be considered a positive one and won't put them at risk of bankruptcy like Sega did by giving it one more try. All it takes is a better approach to rebuild marketshare, "consumer confidence" is rarely based on the past and has so much more to do with the present. It might start slow, but it would at least be an improvement, and that's really what they need, ANY improvement on their market position.

Yes, they're not exactly like Sega, financially-wise, but how both managed to fucked up their systems have somewhat a ressemblance. Nintendo mismanaged Wii's later life and drove it to a premature death, Wii U's a failure. NX might be for Nintendo what Sega was for Dreamcast. They might innovate, bring amazing games, even considerable third-party support, but won't be enough, as it's image as a hardware maker is shaken and costumer confidence has been lost. They won't feel safe to buy a system aware of what happened with Wii and Wii U, so they might fear that might happen again and not buy it, at all.

Splatoon surprising sales are an indication that it's audience wants new experiences, try new things, not the same old, conservative approach Nintendo has been doing lately. They might use Wii U's remaining life time to expand their audience, keep it busy and create prospects until NX arrives. Treat it like shit and restrict to spin-off, safe game systems wouldn't be a good idea.

Again, look at Sony. They went from 150 million very happy customers in a generation where they basically gave consumers exactly what they wanted on the regular to losing almost half of that number on the next go around, most of which didn't come back until near the end of the PS3's extended life cycle. The amount of "loyal customers" a consumer electronics company has, even ones in the computer entertainment business, are closer to being a statistical anomaly than a bankable repeat market.
Basically, you say "loyal customers", I hear "hardcore niche customers".

Sony managed to bring it back some of the previous PS2 market share after they decided to slash it's monstruous 599$ price tag and redesign it with slim. Before that, it was underperforming badly against everyone. Wii and Xbox 360 were squashing it, and, in result, every single previous PS3 exclusive titles, outside MGS4 (as far as I remember) went multiplat.

Without these meassues, Sony would certainly lag behind badly against Nintendo and Microsoft, very unlikely would manage to reach it's lifetime performance on the same proportion like it actually did and there wouldn't be the same level of prospect for PS4's release. Sure it was a decision that took a massive blow into their pockets, but managed to keep them relevant and, consequently, regain the lead.

My point with both Sega and Sony examples are, that a money bleeding situation isn't necessarily bad for the company in the long-term, Nintendo might have lost more money if they slashed Wii U's price to 250, but they would probably, in a way better situation than it is right now. We can never tell, but basing on both PS3 and 3DS examples of price slashing and how effecting it turned out, they could have took the chances.

I think their "bankrupt" will be inevitable if they don't change their mentality quickly, because it won't manage to miraculously convince everyone to buy NX given their recent fuck ups with Wii and Wii U. They might try to a least show an indication of change with Wii U's last days of life, so it can build confidence for NX's future.
 
How much space/energy would ditching the disc drive save?

EDIT: Just looking at the Wii U the disc drive must take up around 2/3 of the space inside.

A good deal of space, indeed. The problem there is that it then leaves basically two options: game cards and digital only. Game cards are easy to lose, a hassle to carry, and expensive to manufacture (i.e. not very developer friendly). Custom Blu-Rays can hold more and at the cost of pennies.

I don't want to see Nintendo go digital only at this point, because I am poor and the bargain bin/deep Amazon discounts are my salvation.
 

Oregano

Member
A good deal of space, indeed. The problem there is that it then leaves basically two options: game cards and digital only. Game cards are easy to lose, a hassle to carry, and expensive to manufacture (i.e. not very developer friendly). Custom Blu-Rays can hold more and at the cost of pennies.

I don't want to see Nintendo go digital only at this point, because I am poor and the bargain bin/deep Amazon discounts are my salvation.

It depends whether they plan on using the same media across handheld/console too though.

I think it would be interesting to see them go digital only and be a lot more aggressive on pricing but I'm not sure that is feasible or like Nintendo.
 
Splatoon surprising sales are an indication that it's audience wants new experiences, try new things, not the same old, conservative approach Nintendo has been doing lately. They might use Wii U's remaining life time to expand their audience, keep it busy and create prospects until NX arrives. Treat it like shit and restrict to spin-off, safe game systems wouldn't be a good idea.

But that's what's happening. Otherwise, there would have been a crumb, a drip of info about any of the alleged suite of Garage games Miyamoto mentioned were happening.

Metroid U might have been a stretch, but not these, especially since these are lower-budget games and Splatoon went from announcement to release in less than a year. One of those would certainly make the Wii U's 2016 seem less like impending doom.
 

Chaos17

Member
Just like their Pre-E3 show, Tree house was cool to watch and really warmed us toward the games they showed in the direct.
They were pretty decent/good quality/interesting.

Doesn't really matter, they were still big moments at the conference, and were aspects of what made the conference good.
So the whole point of this argument is : "bouhhh, Nintendo didn't make me dream like others did!"
Is that why people are fine with artworks trailers now ? :p
 

Overside

Banned
I'm saying not having amiibos wouldn't be making those games more numerous or better. The thing holding Metroid Prime 4 back isn't that amiibos exist.

This is true, the thing holding metroid prime 4 that nintendo no longer has any clue whatsoever, what the factors are, that makes metroid, metroid, to its fan base of 1-3 million.

And Tanabe is NOT helping constantly spouting off about the garbage that caused the loss of focus that ultimately ruined the series, like talking about how we are going to flesh out the federation, and Sylux's complicated relationship with samus, "Theres definately something going on there", It doesnt matter what it is, its not world design, and its not going to make up, for the lack of design metroid has been suffering from. Or another garbage echoes gimmick that seriously crippled the design and pacing of the second game compared to prime (The ONLY way this will not end up being garbage is if it is something that is completely under player control, like a beam or bomb that reverses or advances time in preciely the location the player uses it, skyward sword time stone style, but it will be another bullshit portal set up, which will just be garbage we will have to endure to find the occasional peanuts of metroid goodness still occasionally sprinkled within)...

Instead of instilling confidence by talking about a game world designed around a host of innovative new abilities, which, upon aquiring, changes the players perspective on how he once viewed the places he hass been to, and opens up new venues for critical thinking and problem solving for progression in the game, leading to an immense feeling of triumph and satisfaction upon discovering a new place to go, and the anticipation and excitement that comes with seeing what then lies beyond the next turn or door. IE METROID.
 

Terrell

Member
No, it wasn't. Dreamcast sales were underwhelming from start to finish, especially in Japan and Europe, N64 outsold it many times by that time, and PS2's release was the nail in the coffin. You're overestimating it's performance a lot. They only sold 10.6 million in it's lifetime, which is a failure and was very unlikely they would manage to compete head on against Microsoft and Nintendo. Third-parties would probably leave the system, like Capcom starting to port it's DC titles to PS2, selling better than DC in the end, and Dreamcast became obsolete performance-wise after GCN and Xbox joined the game. It would be at best a niche system for Sega's fanboys.

It outsold Saturn in half the time. Yes, it was still a failure, but it's pretty clear that "consumer confidence" was seeing a modest rebound after the Saturn. But a modest rebound couldn't sustain Sega, they were hoping against hope for a much better performance out of it. I'm not overestimating anything, I even said it was a very modest increase in their market share over Saturn.

Yes, they're not exactly like Sega, financially-wise, but how both managed to fucked up their systems have somewhat a ressemblance. Nintendo mismanaged Wii's later life and drove it to a premature death, Wii U's a failure. NX might be for Nintendo what Sega was for Dreamcast. They might innovate, bring amazing games, even considerable third-party support, but won't be enough, as it's image as a hardware maker is shaken and costumer confidence has been lost. They won't feel safe to buy a system aware of what happened with Wii and Wii U, so they might fear that might happen again and not buy it, at all.

And, as I just demonstrated, leaning on "consumer confidence" like you are and using Dreamcast as your example is false when they can outsell your previous hardware in half the time after your worst failure ever.

Splatoon surprising sales are an indication that it's audience wants new experiences, try new things, not the same old, conservative approach Nintendo has been doing lately. They might use Wii U's remaining life time to expand their audience, keep it busy and create prospects until NX arrives. Treat it like shit and restrict to spin-off, safe game systems wouldn't be a good idea.

Splatoon's surprising sales are an indication that Splatoon is a great game. Mario Kart is still likely to outsell it, and that's part of the "same old" mentality you just derided.
People want great games to buy a system for, but they're not willing to wait until a year or two after launch for them to appear. Consumers aren't required to be patient that way. So why would you risk a scenario where you're pleasing your small user base at the potential expense of having less to offer to a potentially larger user base for new hardware? In either scenario, you're robbing Peter to pay Paul, so if you're going to do that, do it in the way that offers the better option.

Without these meassues, Sony would certainly lag behind badly against Nintendo and Microsoft, very unlikely would manage to reach it's lifetime performance on the same proportion like it actually did and there wouldn't be the same level of prospect for PS4's release. Sure it was a decision that took a massive blow into their pockets, but managed to keep them relevant and, consequently, regain the lead.

My point with both Sega and Sony examples are, that a money bleeding situation isn't necessarily bad for the company in the long-term, Nintendo might have lost more money if they slashed Wii U's price to 250, but they would probably, in a way better situation than it is right now. We can never tell, but basing on both PS3 and 3DS examples of price slashing and how effecting it turned out, they could have took the chances.

It's really not for us to say that it was a guaranteed winner. Hell, we have people on GAF alone who wouldn't by a Wii U at the refurbished price, which is actually lower than the $250 you suggested. So I feel like you're overselling the price point as the thing that's keeping people away from the platform.

I think their "bankrupt" will be inevitable if they don't change their mentality quickly, because it won't manage to miraculously convince everyone to buy NX given their recent fuck ups with Wii and Wii U. They might try to a least show an indication of change with Wii U's last days of life, so it can build confidence for NX's future.

But why change their mentality NOW, on a platform that people aren't really paying any attention to? It's not like a few extra big games is going to magically turn things around. They might have had a better E3, but having a better E3 last year certainly hasn't turned things around for them so far, has it? People liking them better for it isn't translating into people buying the hardware in any significant numbers, so you have to ask: what's the point? If you're not going to get a current sale and no one is even paying attention, what does it matter?
Again, Sega cut the Saturn's life short, released the Dreamcast and, again, while it didn't do GREAT, it still outsold Saturn in half the time.
Consumer confidence is not some big deal that you're making it out to be.
 

Cheerilee

Member
I'm a huge fan of your posts, but this time I can't agree. Sony did a similar maneuver with PS3 when they knew it was a disaster and the only way to turn around was slashing the price and sacrifice their bank roll to keep it's market relevance. Sure, they bleed a hell lot of money, but in return they managed to keep it's market share and consumer trust intact. No secret why PS4's expectations and sales got so high. And they're making a profit on it.

Nintendo might kept their bank roll safety, but at the cost of a failed system, third-party support mass abandonment, shaken credibility and alienated userbase. It's definitively not a wise move to choose financial stability at expense of it's credibility, image and appeal. Sometimes you need to spend money to make money, austerity driven policies aren't always the right path.

Here's some VERY loose math that I like to rely on.

In the Atari 2600 era, videogame machines made money on both the hardware and software. Then Nintendo invented the lockout chip and found that they could break even to push hardware, because they controlled the software profits. The NES and SNES were break-even consoles.

But if a console sells 5-10 games, and the hardware maker gets $10 per-game in royalties, then an aggressive competitor can safely do more than break even to push consoles, they can lose $50 per-console to try and stay ahead of the other guy. Sony realized this and they subsidized a CD drive in the PSX. Nintendo was conservative/arrogant, so the N64 was stuck with carts (and it really gets my goat that Nintendo could've matched the CD drive and had an all-around superior console, even while being conservative/arrogant, but they thought that they needed a price advantage on top of a profit advantage).

The GameCube remained roughly break-even (so stupid) and the Wii was profitable (being stubbornly conservative can really pay off for the hardware maker, when it works), while the PS3 pushed losses to a reckless level.

The 3DS was saved by pushing it down from "profitable" into losses that didn't go crazy. Iwata had a reality check and realized 3DS was in trouble and it was time for aggression, not greed. Also note, the lack of 3DS profits made Nintendo unable to instantly absorb Wii U losses (they'd have to break the piggy bank).

The Wii U started with "not too crazy losses". A $100 price drop on top of that is absolutely reckless, and I'm saying that as someone who thinks Nintendo is 20 years behind in embracing "selling at a loss". The Wii U is the wrong console to be doubling-down on. Nintendo can admit that they screwed up. It wouldn't be the first time. Virtual Boy, anyone? They don't need to sink billions into saving face, when they could spend those billions (who am I kidding, they won't) making sure NX gets things right from the start. The Virtual Boy's widely-mocked failure didn't hurt the GameBoy Color, because people knew the difference. The Virtual Boy was Nintendo being weird and experimental, the GameBoy Color was Nintendo being simple and giving gamers what they wanted. And the Wii U has so-far done a pretty great job of saving face by keeping up the flow of quality games. It's no Virtual Boy.

The PS3 lost a ton of money thanks to things like Blu-Ray and Cell, and Ken Kutaragi was fired over that, but then Sony made a realistic plan to climb out of the hole (mixing various price drops and price increases with bumping up the size of the rapidly-cheaper hard drive, until the Slim cut a lot of costs from the unit). The Wii U failed because it was a last-gen console (more or less) with a tablet controller, but your plan is to get Nintendo out of failure by digging a much deeper hole.
 
It outsold Saturn in half the time. Yes, it was still a failure, but it's pretty clear that "consumer confidence" was seeing a modest rebound after the Saturn. But a modest rebound couldn't sustain Sega, they were hoping against hope for a much better performance out of it. I'm not overestimating anything, I even said it was a very modest increase in their market share over Saturn.

And, as I just demonstrated, leaning on "consumer confidence" like you are and using Dreamcast as your example is false when they can outsell your previous hardware in half the time after your worst failure ever.

Dreamcast outsold Sega Saturn by only a million margin, which is, almost, a tie, as the difference is minimal. DC sold 10.6M vs. 9.5 from SS. You talk like Dreamcast outsold SS by a significant margin, it didn't. Anyway, despite how great DC was, Sega never managed to recover their market share at it's prime with Genesis, which sold 40 million.

Splatoon's surprising sales are an indication that Splatoon is a great game. Mario Kart is still likely to outsell it, and that's part of the "same old" mentality you just derided.
People want great games to buy a system for, but they're not willing to wait until a year or two after launch for them to appear. Consumers aren't required to be patient that way. So why would you risk a scenario where you're pleasing your small user base at the potential expense of having less to offer to a potentially larger user base for new hardware? In either scenario, you're robbing Peter to pay Paul, so if you're going to do that, do it in the way that offers the better option.

I didn't said they should stop investing into their legacy titles, but give more room for new IPs and genres, which is demonstrating results when they put and effort in both quality and advertising, as Splatoon, a great game indeed, plus an investment into a new genre which Nintendo never tried to invest before, making fresh and attractive for new audiences. Sure, Mario, Zelda, Smash, Pokemon etc, can stay relevant as always, but not at cost of library diversification with countless spin-offs and safe games related to these IPs.

But why change their mentality NOW, on a platform that people aren't really paying any attention to? It's not like a few extra big games is going to magically turn things around. They might have had a better E3, but having a better E3 last year certainly hasn't turned things around for them so far, has it? People liking them better for it isn't translating into people buying the hardware in any significant numbers, so you have to ask: what's the point? If you're not going to get a current sale and no one is even paying attention, what does it matter?
Again, Sega cut the Saturn's life short, released the Dreamcast and, again, while it didn't do GREAT, it still outsold Saturn in half the time.
Consumer confidence is not some big deal that you're making it out to be.

Yes, NOW, on Wii U. Yeah, Wii U is doomed and there's no way to turn things around at this point right now. Price slashing at this point would be worthless as the damage is already made. But there's room for investment, as Splatoon demonstrated. Even on a "doomed platform" they can still manage to succeed at creating new IPs and expand their audience, something they should do more instead of fatigued spin-offs and safe games that no longer fire it's fanbase, as this E3 demonstrated.

The 3DS was saved by pushing it down from "profitable" into losses that didn't go crazy. Iwata had a reality check and realized 3DS was in trouble and it was time for aggression, not greed. Also note, the lack of 3DS profits made Nintendo unable to instantly absorb Wii U losses (they'd have to break the piggy bank).

The Wii U started with "not too crazy losses". A $100 price drop on top of that is absolutely reckless, and I'm saying that as someone who thinks Nintendo is 20 years behind in embracing "selling at a loss". The Wii U is the wrong console to be doubling-down on. Nintendo can admit that they screwed up. It wouldn't be the first time. Virtual Boy, anyone? They don't need to sink billions into saving face, when they could spend those billions (who am I kidding, they won't) making sure NX gets things right from the start. The Virtual Boy's widely-mocked failure didn't hurt the GameBoy Color, because people knew the difference. The Virtual Boy was Nintendo being weird and experimental, the GameBoy Color was Nintendo being simple and giving gamers what they wanted. And the Wii U has so-far done a pretty great job of saving face by keeping up the flow of quality games. It's no Virtual Boy.

The PS3 lost a ton of money thanks to things like Blu-Ray and Cell, and Ken Kutaragi was fired over that, but then Sony made a realistic plan to climb out of the hole (mixing various price drops and price increases with bumping up the size of the rapidly-cheaper hard drive, until the Slim cut a lot of costs from the unit). The Wii U failed because it was a last-gen console (more or less) with a tablet controller, but your plan is to get Nintendo out of failure by digging a much deeper hole.

Yes, you demonstrated how badly Iwata fucked up with his price policy, his bet on 3D as selling point and further reason to overprice 3DS, and in result put the entire company's financial health, even market share, at risk, which actually happened in the worst way possible.

Still, your Virtual Boy example doesn't hold up for my argument because Nintendo was after a completely new market and different approach from the home console and portable they were already in. Virtual Boy was never made to be GameBoy's successor, it was mostly an epic fail attempt to be what Oculus VR wants to be in the future. That's why Nintendo's image left unnarmed on their home console and portable front, because Virtual Boy wasn't an investment into those segments. They fucked up Nintendo's plans to stablish a VR market, instead.

Anyway, my opinion keeps on, Nintendo should have slashed the price to 250 in mid 2013 when Wii U still had the 1 year gap over PS4 and XBO. They would loose a lot of money? Hell yeah, they certainly would, but probably would boost Wii U sales significantly in a time when was still hope for a turn around, expectations for it's major prospects and being the only "next-gen" system avaliable on the market when PS3/360 was already showing it's age and PS4/XBO would arrive later in the year. Not only it could double up hardware sales as software sales as well, a very important source of income (remember GCN managed to be profitable thanks to software sales which managed to cover hardware losses?). Even third-party games could have gained a (somewhat) boost and the mass abandonment situation could have been avoided. Anyway, it would be enough to force Nintendo to change it's fucked up casual/family-friendly approach they tried at Wii U's launch with Nintendoland and NSBMU as their bets for this audience (and failed badly at that), thereof making them loose a lot of money.

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree it would hurt them badly short term. But, as a long term strategy, it would work and they could recover the losses in time. Even on a doomed Wii U and underwhelming 3DS situation, they managed to be profitable in the last fiscal year, being the amiibo strategy a major contribution. Wii U would bleed money in my 100$ price cut solution, no doubt, but would bring better software and amiibo profits with a bigger userbase in result, and given how Nintendo managed to recover it's profits with such adverse situation it's facing right now, they could recover the profits faster than you believe. It would definitively create a better scenario for a successor, reduce the doubts and uncertainty sparked on the current situation and build the ground for NX. PS4 got a very successful release thanks to how well Sony managed to turn around PS3 and keep it's image and confidence intact, despite the massive financial blow they had with it.

You often hear many fanboys claiming Nintendo should keep it's current direction, avoiding third-parties and bet on it's first-party titles only, because they "can't compete". Not only this would be toxic, as being isolated isn't being of any help on their current position, as would be a death wish for the company. They can't survive by themselves. This results from alienation and skepticism generated from Wii U's failure and Nintendo's mismanagement. Prior to this, on Wii days, even if you had a valid criticism toward Nintendo, you would be shot down by fans under the excuse of profits, now the speech changed completely.
 

disap.ed

Member
A good deal of space, indeed. The problem there is that it then leaves basically two options: game cards and digital only. Game cards are easy to lose, a hassle to carry, and expensive to manufacture (i.e. not very developer friendly). Custom Blu-Rays can hold more and at the cost of pennies.

I don't want to see Nintendo go digital only at this point, because I am poor and the bargain bin/deep Amazon discounts are my salvation.

I actually thought about game cards as well. As digital distribution will become more and more common, it may actually make sense.
I don't know what are the biggest 3DS cards right now (4GB?), but I could absolutely see 32GB cards (or later even up to 64GB) as a possibility with the cheapest 32GB SD-Cards selling right now at around 10€. Most of the games won't even need such big cards anyway (8 and 16GB will be much more common I guess).
Sure, it would still be a lot more expensive than disks, but so it does on the 3DS and as I wrote above it will become less and less of a factor with DD.
Nintendo would however save a lot of money on every device sold without a disc drive and because of the smaller packaging possible because of it.
If NX will indeed come in a handheld and a console version the game card could work on both, a pretty neat USP.
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
Nintendo really needs to create more studios or buy some studios that's capable on working on 2-3 games at a time.

They could just buy platinum. Those guys make like 10 AAA games a year.
 

xaszatm

Banned
You know, I still think Nintendo had an overall excellent showing this E3...except for the Digital Event, which was unfortunately the only thing that mattered. I mean, if we look at this entire week, we had a Smash Direct that revealed 2 returning members of Smash plus an all new character and new stages, the NWC which was one of the best advertising campaigns I've seen for a video game since the last NWC, and three days of Nintendo Treeehouse Streaming that, asides from the one game that shall not be mentioned, was generally well received. It was a shame that the one thing that mattered was the one where they dropped the ball on most because that blemish is the only thing people are talking about.
 

JoeM86

Member
Nintendo really needs to create more studios or buy some studios that's capable on working on 2-3 games at a time.

Nintendo actually have a craptonne of studios that do work on 2-3 games at a time. In the last 5 years (2011 to end of 2015), Nintendo have/will have published/funded

36 Wii U Retail titles
10 Wii U Download titles
17 Wii titles
7 DS titles
59 Nintendo 3DS retail titles
30 Nintendo 3DS download titles

That's a total of 159 titles developed or paid for (with those games, Nintendo SPD typically have oversight and aid in development, too) by Nintendo in four years. Care to state they don't do enough again?
 

xaszatm

Banned
Nintendo actually have a craptonne of studios that do work on 2-3 games at a time. In the last 5 years (2011 to end of 2015), Nintendo have/will have published/funded

36 Wii U Retail titles
10 Wii U Download titles
17 Wii titles
7 DS titles
59 Nintendo 3DS retail titles
30 Nintendo 3DS download titles

That's a total of 159 titles developed or paid for (with those games, Nintendo SPD typically have oversight and aid in development, too) by Nintendo in four years. Care to state they don't do enough again?

No, you don't get it, until they make the game I want, they make no games. Plain and simple. /s
 

Laughing Banana

Weeping Pickle
No, you don't get it, until they make the game I want, they make no games. Plain and simple. /s

It wouldn't be a problem if there's only one guy saying this.

It would be a problem if hundreds of thousands of people are saying this. And judging by the anemic condition of the WiiU and the response to their E3, this might seem be the case.
 

devonodev

Member
You know, I still think Nintendo had an overall excellent showing this E3...except for the Digital Event, which was unfortunately the only thing that mattered. I mean, if we look at this entire week, we had a Smash Direct that revealed 2 returning members of Smash plus an all new character and new stages, the NWC which was one of the best advertising campaigns I've seen for a video game since the last NWC, and three days of Nintendo Treeehouse Streaming that, asides from the one game that shall not be mentioned, was generally well received. It was a shame that the one thing that mattered was the one where they dropped the Blast Ball because that blemish is the only thing people are talking about.
FTFY ;)
 

E-phonk

Banned
It would be a problem if hundreds of thousands of people are saying this. And judging by the anemic condition of the WiiU and the response to their E3, this might seem be the case.
I'd say the problem is that they are the only one releasing games for the platform.

Afaik Sony has released 3 first party retail game for PS4 this year (Bloodborne, MLB15 & The Order) and will release 3 more (Until Dawn, Tomorrow Children, Tearaway) in 2015.
To compare, for 2015 Nintendo has splatoon, kirby, yoshi, mario maker, mario party 10, xenoblade, devils third, that AC thing, star fox, (and SMTxFE in JPN). So it's not like they aren't releasing stuff, and this is just the WiiU, without 3DS.

Edit: added MLB 15
Edit 2: removed Mario vs Donkey Kong, as it's only retail in japan.
 

JoeM86

Member
I'd say the problem is that they are the only one releasing games for the platform.

Afaik Sony has released 3 first party retail game for PS4 this year (Bloodborne, MLB15 & The Order) and will release 3 more (Until Dawn, Tomorrow Children, Tearaway) in 2015.
To compare, for 2015 Nintendo has splatoon, kirby, yoshi, mario maker, mario party 10, xenoblade, devils third, that AC thing, star fox, (and SMTxFE in JPN). So it's not like they aren't releasing stuff, and this is just the WiiU, without 3DS.

Edit: added MLB 15
Edit 2: removed Mario vs Donkey Kong, as it's only retail in japan.

It was retail in Europe

And yeah, that's my point. Nintendo's first party support for their platforms has been off the scale in quantity and quality, especially compared to the others. Yet people make the claim Nintendo can't handle supporting two platforms. It's far from the truth. What they can't do is solely support a platform and they need third parties, but Nintendo themselves are doing amazingly, all things considered.

Whenever I bring this up on another forum, it's always met with "Yeah but Sony has third parties so they don't need to release more software themselves" which is a sad statement of the industry :/
 
It was retail in Europe

And yeah, that's my point. Nintendo's first party support for their platforms has been off the scale in quantity and quality, especially compared to the others. Yet people make the claim Nintendo can't handle supporting two platforms. It's far from the truth. What they can't do is solely support a platform and they need third parties, but Nintendo themselves are doing amazingly, all things considered.

"They can't support two platforms" and "They can't solely support a platform and need third parties" are the exact same statement, just worded differently. (and one is about 2 platforms, I guess, but the point of the statement is the same either way)

What point were you trying to make other than going round in logical circles?
 

JoeM86

Member
"They can't support two platforms" and "They can't solely support a platform and need third parties" are the exact same statement, just worded differently.

What point were you trying to make other than going round in logical circles?

That really isn't the exact same statement.
They can support two platforms. On average, there has been one retail game published by Nintendo each month on both their formats.

Nintendo can support platforms, they just need third party support to fill the gaps. Just because they don't have third parties doesn't mean they cannot support the platforms and that's why this statement of "Nintendo need to drop one of them as they can't support both" is ridiculously erroneous.
 

gconsole

Member
Final Fantasy XV was first shown at E3 2006 and it's still not out yet 9 years later. Who knows when FF7 remake and Shenmue 3 are coming out.

If you dont know the different between original FFXV circumstance and now and what have been changed within SquareEnix. You should not say anything here. Seriously.
 

AniHawk

Member
It wouldn't be a problem if there's only one guy saying this.

It would be a problem if hundreds of thousands of people are saying this. And judging by the anemic condition of the WiiU and the response to their E3, this might seem be the case.

the response was really to two games from what i understand: metroid prime not being metroid prime (OH THE IRONING), and animal crossing not being animal crossing. i guess zelda angered a couple people but for the most part i guess it's seen as harmless since a console game is known to be on the way.

people who think that these two games signal no more animal crossing games or no more metroid prime games are being unreasonable (well, more towards the former than the latter). those who are pissed that the wii u's last year is 2016 simply weren't paying attention, and really can't be faulted for that.
 
Nintendo develop, produce and collaborate on a huge number of games. The problem has never been the scale of their output, it's that:

-- With no third parties on Wii U - and in previous gens, weak support on N64/GCN, and mixed on Wii - and the disappearance of Western third parties on handhelds this generation, there's less software to fill up the schedules and even when Nintendo are churning games out as fast as they can, it's still not enough.

-- Because they have to manage two separate target platforms and users expect them to provide installments in ongoing franchises for those platforms, there is great deal of redundancy - Mario Kart 7 and Mario Kart 8, for example - that means that key teams are often tied up in producing new versions of classic franchises, rather than striking out for the next big thing. That doesn't mean there's no innovation or quality in those games - they aren't annualised messes by any means - but it does mean that something like a Splatoon, Wii Sports or Pikmin is far rarer than it should be.

I think it's at the point where Nintendo's ongoing unification of development, talk about hardware "brothers" and mention of iOS/Android is pointing at a single Nintendo software platform with multiple hardware builds (handheld, home etc. etc.). If they can't rely on third parties to fill gaps, and if they can't rely on a dedicated audience to float their two separate platforms at a certain level on their games alone, then I think the iOS model of having a single ecosystem that different levels of hardware can access, with shared software and accounts, is the most sensible.

That really isn't the exact same statement.
They can support two platforms. On average, there has been one retail game published by Nintendo each month on both their formats.

Nintendo can support platforms, they just need third party support to fill the gaps. Just because they don't have third parties doesn't mean they cannot support the platforms and that's why this statement of "Nintendo need to drop one of them as they can't support both" is ridiculously erroneous.

They can support two platforms right now, but I think it's clear that they can't offer the breadth of software that audiences are looking for alone across two platforms. They need third parties for that, and even if they can survive without, they won't thrive.
 
That really isn't the exact same statement.
They can support two platforms. On average, there has been one retail game published by Nintendo each month on both their formats.

Nintendo can support platforms, they just need third party support to fill the gaps. Just because they don't have third parties doesn't mean they cannot support the platforms and that's why this statement of "Nintendo need to drop one of them as they can't support both" is ridiculously erroneous.

Either Nintendo can support a platform alone, or they need third parties to help out. Make up your mind which way you want to argue, because repeatedly posting that both sides of the argument are true is silly.

They "can" develop software to release on two platforms, yes.
What they can't do is develop enough or the type of software that actually makes people buy two pieces of hardware.
 

jimi_dini

Member
No, you don't get it, until they make the game I want, they make no games. Plain and simple. /s

No, no. That's not it.
All of those games simply do not count at all. Because of #reasons.
46 Wii U games? 159 games in total? More like 159 of nothing. See 159 * 0 is 0. So literally nothing. Yeah that's it.

New Nintendo IPs also don't count.
And Nintendo-owned studios don't count unless they are called "Nintendo something" like Nintendo EAD. "Nintendo Retro Studios" would count. "Retro Studios" doesn't. "Nintendo Monolith" would count. "Monolith software" doesn't.

Isn't that so difficult to grasp?

/s
 
They "can" develop software to release on two platforms, yes.
What they can't do is develop enough or the type of software that actually makes people buy two pieces of hardware.

Bingo.

Again - and beating this drum is probably rather boring by now :) - if they move to an iOS model, it doesn't stop them releasing different levels of hardware, or targetting specific titles at specific platforms (a "Pokemon NX" might run on your "Nintendo NX Home", but perhaps it's a title geared more toward a handheld playstyle of short bursts, or social interaction, for example so you buy it but end up playing it most on the go) but it does mean they no longer have to use their limited resources developing - essentially - multiple versions of the same game.
 
Bingo.

Again - and beating this drum is probably rather boring by now :) - if they move to an iOS model, it doesn't stop them releasing different levels of hardware, or targetting specific titles at specific platforms (a "Pokemon NX" might run on your "Nintendo NX Home", but perhaps it's a title geared more toward a handheld playstyle of short bursts, or social interaction, for example so you buy it but end up playing it most on the go) but it does mean they no longer have to use their limited resources developing - essentially - multiple versions of the same game.

That's the overall plan.
 
I'd say the problem is that they are the only one releasing games for the platform.

Afaik Sony has released 3 first party retail game for PS4 this year (Bloodborne, MLB15 & The Order) and will release 3 more (Until Dawn, Tomorrow Children, Tearaway) in 2015.
To compare, for 2015 Nintendo has splatoon, kirby, yoshi, mario maker, mario party 10, xenoblade, devils third, that AC thing, star fox, (and SMTxFE in JPN). So it's not like they aren't releasing stuff, and this is just the WiiU, without 3DS.

Edit: added MLB 15
Edit 2: removed Mario vs Donkey Kong, as it's only retail in japan.

Except people aren't buying PS4's just for Sony's first party output. People will buy it for Star Wars Battlefront, for Metal Gear Solid V, for COD, for Persona 5 etc.

Meanwhile, the WiiU, all it has is first party support.
 
Except people aren't buying PS4's just for Sony's first party output. People will buy it for Star Wars Battlefront, for Metal Gear Solid V, for COD, for Persona 5 etc.

Meanwhile, the WiiU, all it has is first party support.

People aren't buying ps4s for bloodborne and uncharted? Okay.
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
Except people aren't buying PS4's just for Sony's first party output. People will buy it for Star Wars Battlefront, for Metal Gear Solid V, for COD, for Persona 5 etc.

Meanwhile, the WiiU, all it has is first party support.

Looking at the 1st party games sales on PS4 I would say that people buy PS4 mostly for 3rd party games.
 

KingBroly

Banned
Bingo.

Again - and beating this drum is probably rather boring by now :) - if they move to an iOS model, it doesn't stop them releasing different levels of hardware, or targetting specific titles at specific platforms (a "Pokemon NX" might run on your "Nintendo NX Home", but perhaps it's a title geared more toward a handheld playstyle of short bursts, or social interaction, for example so you buy it but end up playing it most on the go) but it does mean they no longer have to use their limited resources developing - essentially - multiple versions of the same game.

I could see where, because they don't need/have to do something like that, they don't have as many collaborative projects because of the NX ecosystem. Right now, they're doing them to help fill in software gaps (along with spin-offs people would never ask for) on their systems, Wii U in particular.
 
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