I dont understand why anyone cant express their disappointment at 2K going this route. People are free to be more interested in the lifestyle of an Italian mobster over anyone else. Anyways even if I will miss the music and story of Mafia 1, I will give this a shot if it is good.
People do that out the expense of saying shit like "The Mafia isn't black or that's not what I see it as" when there has been a Black mafia. And when we finally get an attempt at a diverse main character its met with negativity. Its simple as that.
Personally I'm way more excited about this game now than any other Mafia game knowing that it's about killing racist motherfuckers and taking their shit for yourself.
People do that out the expense of saying shit like "The Mafia isn't black or that's not what I see it as" when there has been a Black mafia. And when we finally get an attempt at a diverse main character its met with negativity. Its simple as that.
People refuting the authenticity of this are obviously wrong. However I also see a complete blowback against anyone expressing their disappointment at not being able to play the life of an Italian mobster and also seeing wrongful accusations of racism etc. I do think that is wrong. I am Indian and I would for example rather play Italian Mobsters on screen then Indian mobsters. I just like that romanticized view of gangsters because of watching those kind of movies and reading those kind of books growing up.
Anyways having said that this story seems to be way way more complex than anything in Mafia 1 and 2 so I am now getting kind of excited to play this. Look forward to more detailed gameplay videos. Plus this prospect does seem exciting
Personally I'm way more excited about this game now than any other Mafia game knowing that it's about killing racist motherfuckers and taking their shit for yourself.
A black protagonist and a look at the Black Mob? As if I wasn't ready for this before, my interest in this game just skyrocketed! If it's good, I'll pick this up day 1. It's been a while since I've played a game with a black protagonist that I didn't have to create.
Personally I'm way more excited about this game now than any other Mafia game knowing that it's about killing racist motherfuckers and taking their shit for yourself.
Good OP. Personally, I think the direction 2K Games is going with Mafia III looks really interesting. I was a big fan of American Gangster when it came out, and the fact that the protagonist seems to be similar, along with the New Orleans setting, makes the game stand out for me. It's a different and interesting setting which hopefully will be explored more.
Also, loved the use of House of the Rising Sun in the trailer. Great song to use in anything involving the New Orleans underworld.
As much as I love the Italian Mafia, I think that exploring the different sides of the Mafia, and the different types of Mafia that existed is a good way to keep the series fresh. I mean, Mafia I had the classic 1930s Godfather-esque gangsters, while Mafia 2 changed it up by moving the setting to the 1950s, and I think this will end up being another good change, if they can pull it off. Hopefully, due to their inclusion in this one, we could maybe get a game featuring the Irish mob at the forefront in a sequel, since they, like the Black Mob, are a relatively untouched side of the criminal underworld. A game featuring the Russian Mob and the Jewish Mob would also be interesting (back when I played L.A. Noire, which featured Mickey Cohen as a major character, I got interested in the history of the Jewish Mob).
Though I believe race may play a part in some people's criticisms of the new protagonist, I believe for others, their criticism of it feeling out of place may have to do with the name of the franchise, which isn't really 2K's fault, since it was decided back when the original focusing on the Sicilian Mob came out, way before any of this. The thing is, the term Mafia is pretty exclusively used to refer to the Sicilian Mob, for good reason, because the word came from Sicily. Though you can argue that the term has changed to refer to several different types of Mobs over the years (ie. the Russian Mafia), when most people hear the Mafia, they usually think of the classic Italian and Sicilian crime families. Even the TVTropes page for the Mafia only refers to the Sicilian and Italian Mob, with different titles being used to refer to the Jewish Mob, the Russian Mob, and the Irish Mob. I'm not defending the criticisms, as it looks like the Italian Mob is still a big part of the game, with Vito's faction, and the Mafia being the main antagonists, so I can see how the term Mafia still fits in with this game, but that could be another place they come from.
Anyway, I'm fully supportive of the direction 2K is taking for the series, and am fully supportive of game developers telling the stories they want. Can't wait to see how it all pans out.
EDIT: Also, I disagree with the idea presented in one of the OP's quotes that talk about how the Mafia games romanticize the image of the Italian Mob. In my mind, the Mafia games always did a good job of showing the downsides of the criminal life. I mean, the first game ended
with the main character fearing for his life from his boss, leading to him testifying against them, putting them into prison before he ends up being gunned down years later
, and Mafia II had
you getting caught and going to prison, having years of your life taken away, ending with your best friend being killed so you don't have to die.
I think saying that Mafia III will be the first game in the series to look at the downsides of the criminal underworld is a disservice to the previous two games.
I'm actually more interested in the game because of the interesting discussion it has spawned, in how it will deal with the topic it brought in the first trailer.
I hope they don't shy away from those problematics, since the gameplay seems quite changed from previous games.
EDIT: Also, I disagree with the idea presented in one of the OP's quotes that talk about how the Mafia games romanticize the image of the Italian Mob. In my mind, the Mafia games always did a good job of showing the downsides of the criminal life. I mean, the first game ended
with the main character fearing for his life from his boss, leading to him testifying against them, putting them into prison before he ends up being gunned down years later
, and Mafia II had
you getting caught and going to prison, having years of your life taken away, ending with your best friend being killed so you don't have to die.
I think saying that Mafia III will be the first game in the series to look at the downsides of the criminal underworld is a disservice to the previous two games.
I don't think that was point of the post though. Mafia hasn't shied from doing that, but 3 will be a further de-romanticizing of the mob, with how it has treated minorities.
● That it does not make sense to have a black protagonist in such a series.
● That the themes handled in the Mafia series cannot be adequately handled by focusing on the Black Criminal Underworld.
● That historically it would not make sense to have a black man so intimately dealing with the Italian Mafia, especially in light of their extreme vitriolic racism toward this same community.
Work its been a bit intense of late, haven't really check the reactions for this game.
But lord jebus christ if some people are actually saying that... fuck those people! seriously...
The implications are ignorant and racist to say the least:
- Implying organised crime is an Italian trade mark
- Implying other ethnic crime groups do not have "thematic" implications that can be explored
- Implying the black criminal underworld is not worth exploring
Beside we don't really know if the main character is really intimately dealing with the Italian mafia
Personally, this game is games-con most pleasant surprise , never thought they would dare to take this series into something else than a cookie cutter (alternate trademark) Godfather game. Props for 2K, will be buying.
I'm glad I'm not the only one feeling this way. It too slipped my mind when I was watching the trailer. Nothing about it phased me in a negative or controversial perspective. I can't really fathom those opinions. I will say that I was slightly interested in Mafia III after enjoying II, but that trailer got me a lot more hyped.
I'm glad I'm not the only one feeling this way. It too slipped my mind when I was watching the trailer. Nothing about it phased me in a negative or controversial perspective. I can't really fathom those opinions. I will say that I was slightly interested in Mafia III after enjoying II, but that trailer got me a lot more hyped.
It's really not a big deal. At the end of the day, the devs are telling the story they want to, and that story happens to have a black protag. I'm guessing they feel that going that direction serves the story better. More power to 'em.
Feel exactly the same. Everything regarding the game's settings and characters it just too unique to ignore. Said this in the other thread, but the south and it's culture/style is pretty rarely seen in games, so for someone from New Orleans it's super exciting.
Imru’ al-Qays;174294495 said:
I'm pretty interested to see how this game comes together. Can't say I'd feel the same way if it were just another Italian mob game.
While I'm really looking forward to 3, for me personally, there really aren' that many Italian mafia games (in the style I want at least) for me to be upset if 3 were in fact just another cool looking white dude in a suit in New York.
Is the protagonist based on a real person? He has a very unique look on him that not even the other lieutenants have.
And yeah, that reveal thread was the current day version of the San Andreas thread, racism is still a thing, but its harder to recognize when it has evolved so much, we live in a culture where its wrong to say the n-word but you can talk about lazy thugs, Obama being a muslim,etc as much as you want, there are levels of racism that are allowed by society.
The language behind it has become vague with just enough wiggle room to argue that its not about intolerance but in fact you are just talking about Man's rights/Italian Mafia/States Rights/Ethics In game journalism, but some actually its rooted in the same irrational perception that minorities getting recognition means the eventual downfall of the majority.
It wouldn't surprise me, but in terms of uniqueness the others IMO don't look anymore or less unique. Hell, the scary looking on the far left with the dorky shirt looks about the most realistic of the bunch IMO.
Wonderful write-up as always, Amir0x, thank you for sharing. I'm pleasantly surprised by where the devs are going with it - a mixed race protagonist plus 60s mid/post Vietnam War is a pretty compelling combination. I can't wait for this, actually.
It's not realistic unless you get treated as white when being treated as black wouldn't be a negative thing (like how Obama is black until he says the n-word, then he's half-white).
It's not realistic unless you get treated as white when being treated as black would be a positive thing (like how Obama is black until he says the n-word, then he's half-white).
So a half-black, half-white person is generally treated like a black person because race judgements are generally made at face value like that. But the second someone (read: racists) think they can get an edge in a discussion by invoking their opponent's mixed heritage that card is on the table before you can blink. The most recent example I can think of is the Obama thing I mentioned. For 8 years people (read: racists) are giving him shit because he's black, the second he says the n-word in public he's mixed race again (to racists) and it's not on.
It'd be interesting to see the game throw a few of those situations at people
So a half-black, half-white person is treated like a black person instead of mixed-race. But the second someone (read: racists) think they can get an edge in a discussion by invoking their mixed heritage that card is on the table before you can blink. The most recent example I can think of is the Obama thing I mentioned. For 8 years people (read: racists) are giving him shit because he's black, the second he says the n-word in public he's mixed race again (to racists) and it's not on.
Oh ok, but that's only if you know their heritage. Random people on the street won't know about Lincoln's parents.
For instance, my cousin's boyfriend in Australia is as white as can be, but he's got an Aboriginal dad who's as black as can be. You wouldn't know it just by looking at him.
Great write up! Seems like an interesting direction to go in and it's nice seeing something get covered in a game that seems to rarely get covered in media period, though I'm personally not too interested in the game since I never enjoy these kinds of sandbox GTA-type games.
I really like the direction the game is going. I loved Mafia 2, and I've kind of always had an interest in the organized crime of early to mid 1900's. Specifically the Italian Mafia because of my being part Italian.
I think the race of the character and the addition of other mob groups is a great idea. It's definitely giving the game a more diverse cast, which is something I don't see a problem with.
Is it just me though, or does the main character kind of remind me of Denzel Washington? I mean, he kinda looks a little bit like a younger version of him, and I kept getting Man on Fire vibes from him.
I don't care which color the protagonist is, he can be a green Martian for all I care. As long as the game plays well, and is imteresting with a variety of missions, I don't care about the politically correct context of it, I am not American so there is no constant PC pressure on people.
I don't care which color the protagonist is, he can be a green Martian for all I care. As long as the game plays well, and is imteresting with a variety of missions, I don't care about the politically correct context of it, I am not American so there is no constant PC pressure on people.
What is "PC" about seeing different perspectives and experiences?
Regardless I think Salsa is right that they're not going to really to be in your face about it much considering this quote from the Gameinformer (I think) reveal earlier today.
As that earlier interaction with the police and broadcast hinted at, the games setting and time period are filled with volatile subject matter, particularly when it comes to race in America. Thats something that the developers arent erasing from their story, and there were certainly a few instances where characters used language likely to start fistfights today.
Its 1968, its part of the world, and were not going to shy away from it but were also not going to be getting up on a soapbox, Blackman says. The language is going to be the language of the time, but the players reactions to that are going to be the players reactions to that were not going to be prescriptive on that. Were not forcing Lincoln to do anything specific based on whats going on in the time period. I would also add that while race is one of the things thats part of Lincolns identity, its not the only thing that defines him. Its an important thing, make no doubt about it, but hes also defined by the fact that hes an orphan, by the fact that hes loyal, that hes a Vietnam vet and all of those relationships.
I think this is a great direction they are going here. From this angle they can explore some pretty heavy issues like race and make it more personal this way. I hope they can pull it off. A lot of movies about the Italian mob never really touch on racism outside of dropping some N bombs here and there. If they could make this lead character into a black Frank White, that would be amazing. American Gangster was a great movie and King of New York is one of my all time favorites. I'm super excited for this game.
What is "PC" about seeing different perspectives and experiences?
Regardless I think Salsa is right that they're not going to really to be in your face about it much considering this quote from the Gameinformer (I think) reveal earlier today.
Which, sounds to me if I can quote myself a bit like "don't worry, we won't focus too much on race (for those of you made uncomfortable by that)"
Or if I can play devil's advocate, maybe they don't want the story to be about race, but rather about the man's "family" struggle as is suggested so much by the trailer. Perhaps race is just an aspect of his struggle rather than the main cause. But again you might be right. It doesn't matter, at least they are being fairly upfront about it, more so than pretty much any other game I can think of.
I don't care which color the protagonist is, he can be a green Martian for all I care. As long as the game plays well, and is imteresting with a variety of missions, I don't care about the politically correct context of it, I am not American so there is no constant PC pressure on people.
I get your message but that ain't strictly true, i.e look at Gears 4 character art thread and all the comments about another boring whitey. Complaining and speaking out about lack of diversity is probably a major reason we got mafia 3 how it is now.
I stopped reading Youtube comments after one time where I read comments for an episode of the cartoon "Recess". Nothing but insults and racist slurs. There are too many sad people on the internet.
I get your message but that ain't strictly true, i.e look at Gears 4 character art thread and all the comments about another boring whitey. Complaining and speaking out about lack of diversity is probably a major reason we got mafia 3 how it is now.
Vast majority of people are simply complaining about his overall design, not specifically because he's white. Where as here people are complaining specifically because the character is black regardless of design. If people were simply complaining about his design then words like political correctness wouldn't be used.
I can understand why fans of the Mafia franchise are disappointed, and it is justified to some degree. The past two games have both had Italian American roots and the stories have heavily revolved around the idea of an Italian American mob. If I was a fan of the series, I think I would be disappointed too.
Earlier I was thinking 'Maybe Mafia III would be better suited as a spin-off' due to the previous titles and how similar they were to eachother, but then it pretty much clicked. There's many other different Mafia groups outside of the Italian American one. So I'm even more open to the idea now then I was before. It doesn't go against the title at all, contrary to what some people have said.
Personally, I absolutely adore the direction they've taken for Mafia III. The 60s, and New Orleans are two elements that are heavily under represented in video games, and on top of that we have a black protagonist to boot, which will likely show us an entirely different side of history which too, is very under represented in all types of media, let alone video games. It's so refreshing! It honestly is, and I'm very excited to see how this plays out.
To be honest though, I actually think by making him mixed race, the devs are playing it a bit too safe. I was a little disappointed that he wasn't 'more black' for lack of a better term.
Vast majority of people are simply complaining about his overall design, not specifically because he's white. Where as here people are complaining specifically because the character is black regardless of design. If people were simply complaining about his design then words like political correctness wouldn't be used.
Then words like "racists" would probably be used anyway lol
You're right, I don't think I'm necessarily wrong though. I don't see how a characters hair cut or beard affects the character themselves. It's not like Lincoln is really a well-designed character in terms of visuals, he looks like a normal dude. Maybe I'm wrong, but if the main protag of Gears 4 were anything but white I doubt the same complaints would come in. Again we wouldn't know, but that series in particular has always been revolved around jughead morons, and the new guy looks like he fits the bill.
I can understand why fans on the Mafia franchise are disappointed, and it is justified to some degree. The past two games have both had Italian American roots and the stories have heavily revolved around the idea of an Italian American mob. If I was a fan of the series, I think I would be disappointed too.
Earlier I was thinking 'Maybe Mafia III would be better suited as a spin-off' due to the previous titles and how similar they were to eachother, but then it pretty much clicked. There's many other different Mafia groups outside of the Italian American one. So I'm even more open to the idea now then I was before. It doesn't go against the title at all, contrary to what some people have said.
Personally, I absolutely adore the direction they've taken for Mafia III. The 60s, and New Orleans are two elements that are heavily under represented in video games, and on top of that we have a black protagonist to boot, which will likely show us an entirely different side of history which too, is very under represented in all types of media, let alone video games. It's so refreshing! It honestly is, and I'm very excited to see how this plays out.
To be honest though, I actually think by making him mixed race, the devs are playing it a bit too safe. I was a little disappointed that he wasn't 'more black' for lack of a better term.
I think it makes the message stronger. There's a great quote from a movie I remember seeing from a mixed-race guy, can't remember the title, something along the lines of "I'm not a donkey, but I'm not a horse, I'm a mule". Doesn't matter if Lincoln has a white parent, he's got dark skin, he's automatically at the bottom.
Or if I can play devil's advocate, maybe they don't want the story to be about race, but rather about the man's "family" struggle as is suggested so much by the trailer. Perhaps race is just an aspect of his struggle rather than the main cause. But again you might be right. It doesn't matter, at least they are being fairly upfront about it, more so than pretty much any other game I can think of.
Hey you might be right too, I can't help but be cynical. Either way the point is more this may be much ado about nothing; anyone hoping for (or afraid of) a deconstruction of societal mores, segregation and race politics is most likely going to be disappointed (or relieved, as it were) when it's just threadbare, easily overlooked commentary at most. Baby steps at least I guess.
To be honest though, I actually think by making him mixed race, the devs are playing it a bit too safe. I was a little disappointed that he wasn't 'more black' for lack of a better term.
Fantastic OP, Amir0x. From the Gamespot article, Peter Brown asked that are the writers ready to be scrutinised on how they deal with these themes especially with what's been happening since the last year. It seems the devs, even though they're mostly white, are doing the research and "learning what you don't know" as Shawn Allen (Treachery in Beat down City) in a Giantbomb interview put it about tackling race issues in games by white writers. Time will tell if it's tastefully handled or insensitive in portrayals. I hope it's good, cause if Swedish devs like Machine games in Wolfenstein The New Order can do it, then why not?
I'm just happy there's a black protagonist and a more interesting and risky subject matter than just Italian gangsters which has been done to death. Having Lincoln intersect with characters of previous games should be interesting.
To be honest though, I actually think by making him mixed race, the devs are playing it a bit too safe. I was a little disappointed that he wasn't 'more black' for lack of a better term.
I think if he was half Sicilian and half African American, it could make for some interesting back story. It could also give him questions about his allegiances or influence his level acceptance from either race. If done right, I think its a great move.
The parallels to San Andreas are fitting enough. San Andreas came from Italian-American organised crime and moved on to black-American organised crime.
I must admit it made me re-evaluate some beliefs of myself as well at the time. The Italian mob had been glamorised and romanticised in fiction for many years, much like piracy or spying. Then San Andreas came along and used imagery and music that I was old enough to remember from my teenage years. It had the potential of feeling a bit too real to me, since that was the type of stuff I saw on the news. It took them turning it into the goofiest and most content rich game of the time game ever made to counter-act it. I had a lot of discussions on whether or not my initial feelings of discomfort had a racial element to it, and my soul-searching made me conclude that I was a hypocrite at the very least. I could not deny that Vice City slipped under my radar. GTA4 was the final straw for me. It only brought the era closer, and dialled the silliness back to try and tell a more earnest story. It contained the exact stuff that San Andreas's reveal made me uncomfortable. Needless to say, 4 was last GTA game I've played.
The point I'm getting at is that Vice City was a real blind spot for me, and I think Mafia may enjoy that same luxury from others. Pop culture framing can be a powerful force in a person. If you're ok with one and not the other, it's probably time to start thinking about why you feel that way, and maybe update some of your feelings. There is no reason why other mobs couldn't be functionally or thematically the same as the Italian one, as much as the Italian one feels more fictional due to your exposure.
About the game itself, it kind of passed me by entirely, I didn't really pay attention to these types of games any more. Contrasting a black protagonist with the Italian Mafia is a smart move. It makes enough historical sense and could bring an interesting ripple to an otherwise stagnant type of story. They even made him half-Scicilian apparently, which should make it all the easier to accept.
I think if he was half Sicilian and half African American, it could make for some interesting back story. It could also give him questions about his allegiances or influence his level acceptance from either race. If done right, I think its a great move.
I agree... This is about a mixed race man in the 1960s, which could lead to a more interesting story than if he was just black. For example, if his white parent is a member of the Italian Mafia, that is definitely going to affect his revenge against the Italian Mafia.
All in all, after reading the summary, this could very well be a very great story and social commentary. However, the developers need to follow through on the potential of the character and setting.
Gamespot article that I linked above said only Lincoln is playable. That would have been cool though, different character perspectives for like different chapters.
The story and setting definitely has me intrigued, I love movies/games that try to tackle lesser used settings and eras.
I just wish the gameplay didn't look so arcadey, with cars flying up into the air and the main character rolling out of a car at high speed with no damage.
I mean this is a game that used to have speed limits/traffic laws that affected how you played, not to mention taking dmg from hitting things (as in your character took damage if you ran into an object while driving, not simply the car itself) .
● That it does not make sense to have a black protagonist in such a series.
If you watch the commentary and pay attention, they've already revealed exactly how a mixed race protagonist fits this game pretty much perfectly.
● That the themes handled in the Mafia series cannot be adequately handled by focusing on the Black Criminal Underworld.
There has been no mention of the black criminal underworld being the focus. There are several criminal organizations at play in the game.
● That historically it would not make sense to have a black man so intimately dealing with the Italian Mafia, especially in light of their extreme vitriolic racism toward this same community.
Again, from the commentary and trailer, it makes great sense story-wise so I don't see why anyone has an issue with Clay Lincoln being the protagonist unless you're racist.
● That it does not make sense to have a black protagonist in such a series.
If you watch the commentary and pay attention, they've already revealed exactly how a mixed race protagonist fits this game pretty much perfectly.
● That the themes handled in the Mafia series cannot be adequately handled by focusing on the Black Criminal Underworld.
There has been no mention of the black criminal underworld being the focus. There are several criminal organizations at play in the game.
● That historically it would not make sense to have a black man so intimately dealing with the Italian Mafia, especially in light of their extreme vitriolic racism toward this same community. Again, from the commentary and trailer, it makes great sense story-wise so I don't see why anyone has an issue with Clay Lincoln being the protagonist unless you're racist.
Again, I wanna play Devil's advocate, some people really just wanna play the glamorized traditional Italian mafioso with the cool suits, greased hair, and slick cars. I don't know if it's super fair to classify them immediately as racists. Now if they are flat out denying the game based on the first two points, fair enough, there are probably some issues there.
As huge fan of the Mafia series (Yes I even loved the 2nd one) I am quite disappointed, I just wanted more of the same, not this giant shift into something else. If this would have been a spin off and called Black Mafia, I don't think most people would have an issue with it (including myself, because the hope would be that my "more of the same style game" could arrive sometime in the future).
I've also been reading comments on other sites etc. as well, and the way I perceive it, is that while some are definitely racist, I've seen plenty of people jumping on other peoples throats for being racist just because they are disappointed with the protagonist, or the game itself.
I feel that 2K is doing the same mistake as with Max Payne 3, the change was just to big for the fans compared to the earlier Max Payne games. The people who seem to be excited about this game are mostly the ones who want change or the ones that haven't played the previous two games. For me, I thought the game play looked kinda generic so I am going to wait and see.
A side note: A quote that I read, forgot if it was here or somewhere else, was that the three supporting characters look a lot more interesting to play than the main protagonist. I actually agree at this point in time.
The term was originally applied to the Sicilian Mafia, but has since expanded to encompass other organizations of similar methods and purpose, e.g. "the Russian Mafia", "the Japanese Mafia", "the Albanian Mafia" or "Maltese Mafia". The term is applied informally by the press and public; the criminal organizations themselves have their own terms (e.g. the Sicilian and American Mafia call themselves "Cosa Nostra", the Mexican Mafia calls itself La Eme and the "Japanese Mafia" calls itself yakuza).
When used alone and without any qualifier, "Mafia" typically refers to either the Sicilian Mafia or the Italian-American Mafia.
lol
