MatrixMan.EXE
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This makes zero sense.
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Can we be proud of the British Empire?
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This makes zero sense.
JordanN
Banned
That in no way means showing pride.
Autobahns were a nazi invention, how many Germans are thanking Hitler?
When people speak of being "proud" of the empire, I always assume they are mostly referring to the achievements of the time. That's what I mean when I speak of the empire not the raj and caste system etc etc etc.
They were very much not a Nazi invention, the Nazis however did massively increase investments in it because they needed it as military infrastructure. (Although that certainly wasn't its exclusive purpose)
higgsboson1997
Member
USA isn't remotely the same as the British Empire.
higgsboson1997
Member
You can't say that India's system wouldn't have evolved in the 250 years that the Brits ruled there though. Also, they completely destroyed the Indian economy and took away vast quantities of wealth.
Sure it is. The methods are very different but the goal (extending economic power and control through economic and ideological means) are very similar.
Herp2daDerp
Neo Member
I can't talk on the behalf of other people and I can't say I'm perfect in what I'm trying to achieve, but I do my best to minimize my "reaping" of those benefits. Unfortunately it's impossible to, say, live without a phone, so I do have one. But I rather fix my phone and don't buy a new phone every year if something malfunctions in my phone or as new models are released.
I also fully support supporting refugees the best we can, even if in the long run that might affect me negatively (i.e. Less money on my healthcare)
jimbobsmells
Member
But at what cost? AT WHAT COST?
Oh it would have evolved into something else, are you convinced it would have morphed into a relatively stable constitutional democracy with representative government? It (mostly) happened in Hong Kong, but not in China. It happened in Bermuda, but not Haiti. It happened in South Africa, but not DRC. The only common theme here is that the former countries were colonised by Britain, and the latter by other countries.
It wouldn't have. Please tell you didn't listen to the Shashi Tharoor speech and think this up. I've seen too many having listened to that and buying into what he said.
If it wasn't for the British, it would've been the French and Portuguese who would've ruled India, but the British were just stronger. There was no 'India' when they came, because before the British, it was another group of Persian rulers called the Mughals who had invaded and conquered the land. There was the Sikh Empire, the Mughal Empire, the Maratha Kingdoms and many other monarchic dynasties all throughout. Thinking there would be this national unity country, super rich and wealthy is just flat out false.
Also, when the Japanese invaded Burma, their next goal was to invade India as well. If it wasn't the British, it would've been someone else. At least the Brits unified the majority of the country, tried to settle the sectarian strife that had erupted primarily amongst Muslims who wanted their own country to rule. The biggest lingering effect isn't that material wealth was stolen, or labor used to power the British economy, but that the Partition displaced 15 million people overnight and that almost 500,000 to a million died. Primarily Muslim cities were part of India, most of Sikh Punjab became Pakistani/Muslim, East Pakistan would never be unified with west because they were Bengali whereas western Pakistanis were primarily Punjabi, this in turn leads to civil strife culminating in the liberation of Bangladesh and the Indo-Pak war of 1971.
I think every group of people can acknowledge that their ancestors did terrible things, that almost all empires were built on the backs of others and that you can find anything that can cause you to not be proud. I mean why wouldn't Mongolians be proud of Genghis Khan and his dynasty despite how brutal it was?
Guerrillas in the Mist
Member
What's interesting is that, despite Ireland's frankly rubbish treatment at times, the Irish were a huge reason the Empire was able to expand.
The Highland Clearances in Scotland resulted in a huge boost in migration to Canada, and likewise the Irish, pushed out by poverty and famine in the 18th and 19th centuries did the same throughout much of the British Empire, especially in places like Australia.
Principate
Saint Titanfall
Haha South Africa. you do realise the amount of veto's the UK government, used in the support of the Apartheid government in oppression of blacks in the UN security councils, long after it gained independence.
I'm pretty sure you don't. There's a lot of crap the UK, government did in global affairs, some of which hidden by straight up lying only to be revealed after the fact.
I have every reason to have the same feelings that you guys seem to have towards our shared history. But I don't, because I don't posses irrational feelings bound to something I had no part in. I don't take pride in the fact that my society is reaping the benefits of greed fueled exploitation that was undertaken by the ruling class centuries ago.
I've only ever encountered one other brit in real life that has been vocal about such pride, he's a close friend of mine, I love him to bits but he's an absolute idiot in most cases. I was brought up in an environment that favoured freethinking, personal achivement and compassion rather than the kind of fulfillment, unwavering loyalty and pride some get from the likes of royalty and other far removed aspects of society. That's why I don't often encounter it.
Fiends, all of you.
Now that stuff was disgraceful. I could say more but it might only serve to mitigate that. Apartheid should have been condemned from day 1 right up until its death.
Its cool guys, we were there first! Which is good because then it would have been someone else pillaging your country and that would be unseemly.
I know. Answer this question then; which country would you rather live in? SA or DRC?
Principate
Saint Titanfall
The only word I could use to describe it is pure wickedness.
CadetMahoney
Member
Pretty much. I'm still hearing all this talk about "benefitting the world" and "people should be grateful" and talk about "achievements". Achievements which where selfish in nature just becaue you could exploit lesser advanced countries?
All I get it "they opened trade routes" as the best they got for something positive which "benefited the world" and that is hardly an altruistic endeavour.
Principate
Saint Titanfall
For Black people in many respects yeah. You do realise blacks were only allowed to even go to university in South Africa 20 years ago, before that they were straight up banned. That means the education levels of the Black populace in South Africa is dire, worse than many African countries. Literally imagine almost the entire population of South African blacks who our age 18+ parents having never been to university or college. Imagine it.
As an African not South Africa that's for fucking sure.
I'm not going to be grateful when they exploited one of my home countries up until the recent past and left it to shoddily fend for itself, and destroyed much of the native population in the distant past in my second home country. As well as my first now that I consider it.
It is a straight up "no" regarding pride. I don't take pride in the achievements of some empire.
There is a certain distilled respect. An interest perhaps. Even awe at how a small island nation could accomplish so much devastation and inventions in a relatively short time period.
But pride in its achievements? No.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
This thread is somewhat less distasteful if you imagine the manifest destiny crowd all having bushy mustaches like the thin guy in Disney's The Sword and the Stone
Sumio Mondo
Member
As a Brit? No. As a human being? Hell no.
Ask the natives how much of a success story Australia is.
I'm proud of Germany facing its dark past.
I'm proud of Greece's achievements in science, art etc.
I'm fascinated by the empires of former super powers, but I don't think I could be proud of them.
That's not a nice thing to say to Luxembourg. We know you guys are the US of Europe, but don't overdo it.
That reminds me, LIDL's British Week starts tomorrow! They have like baked beans and shortbread and stuff. I need to try some of that stuff out.
I'm proud of Greece's achievements in science, art etc.
I'm fascinated by the empires of former super powers, but I don't think I could be proud of them.
That's not a nice thing to say to Luxembourg. We know you guys are the US of Europe, but don't overdo it.
That reminds me, LIDL's British Week starts tomorrow! They have like baked beans and shortbread and stuff. I need to try some of that stuff out.
I am not talking directly about being proud of the British Empire, but just in general. I've never understood being "proud" of where you're born or live or from. You could've been born anywhere else in the world if things were different with your family and parents.
I live in the UK and never felt anything, its just where I live. No big deal. Some people get so crazy about being British and proud! or English and proud (I live in England). It's kinda stupid to me.
I am a citizen of Earth and I reside in the England.
¯\_(ツ
_/¯
I live in the UK and never felt anything, its just where I live. No big deal. Some people get so crazy about being British and proud! or English and proud (I live in England). It's kinda stupid to me.
I am a citizen of Earth and I reside in the England.
¯\_(ツ
_/¯No, because the final form of your failed experiment lead to this.
CNN poll : Donald Trump now competitive in general election
Thanks British Empire!
CNN poll : Donald Trump now competitive in general election
Thanks British Empire!
It's an interesting case. The Dutch who were at the time the main competitor to the British, for the largest part didn't really colonize, aside from a trade post or two. It's the reason they were the only western power allowed to trade with Japan, because they didn't seem to have any interest in subjugating or converting them. Instead everything was done by the East Indies (and later West Indies) Company. The British much more forcibly took control of the entire country. The Dutch approach by current standard seems more benign (comparatively of course, the company had a private military that rivaled any state's, and put it to use), but for instance Malaysia seems a lot better off than Indonesia, perhaps partially because Britain was able to enforce a political system for much longer.
(then again can you really compare? Indonesia is wealthier p.c. than India)
As for the pride, I don't think it's befitting to be proud of something you had no part in, though you do inherit certain privileges and responsibilities, and in that sense awe, respect, duty and gratefulness might play a part in it.
And I don't think we need to feel too guilty (if you can feel such a thing for something you had no part in) for the terribleness of western colonialism, Malaysia is a good example of how Britain was just one in a very long line of foreign powers vying for a piece of land. Everyone did it basically, we're just focused on the last empires because it's recent memory.
whatsinaname
Member
"Bringing democracy"? Is that why the Empire existed? How altruistic. Maybe that's why "No taxation without representation" started. The locals were happy with the democracy they got. Maybe that's why the first government representation in India wasn't until 1910, with the first elections in 1920 (60 years after the Raj started). Guess they were "preparing" the natives. And that council had a lot of power! The Indian members could ask questions even!
Honestly, a lot of your rhetoric reads like one of those people who believe slavery was the best thing to happen to a lot of Africans because it brought them prosperity and wealth compared to those who were left behind in Africa.
Who's 'we'? Also, it was in reference to the person saying if the British didn't come, India wouldn't be so poor, exploited, and would be super rich and whatnot. My point was that at that point in time, large parts of India were already under the rule of foreign rulers from Persia who founded the Mughal Empire, not to mention that the Dutch, French and Portuguese all had started trading posts and starting to colonize large parts of the land. It was the eventual dominance of the British that made sure they eventually took most of India. Portuguese colonization ended with the annexation of Goa in 1961 when Indian forces stormed the small state and finally ended centuries of rule there. The point was to highlight it was a fallacy to think there was a unified India before the British came.
I think there is a lot to be proud of when it comes to the BE. Thing is though as a German my impression is that the British already glorify their imperial past to the max. It would really suit them to find something more contemporary to be proud of. Britain is kinda on its way to a massive open air folklore museum.
If you need a tip: being the worlds evil superpower for a couple of decades will cut you nicely off of your complete history for the decades following. It's tested and approved.
If you need a tip: being the worlds evil superpower for a couple of decades will cut you nicely off of your complete history for the decades following. It's tested and approved.
We asked nicely.
We do have a constitution, actually, it's just more....theoretical. The British Constitution actually consists of all laws governing how the state and the person interact.
Also, I'm getting slightly narky here.
England is not the "Empire". It was the British Empire, and had major figures across its history from all corners of both the Home Nations, and abroad. If you're going to go off where it was ruled from you might as well call it London's Empire.
To a certain extent yes. One can recognise that while in many ways the Empire was an unpleasant thing, it is reasonable to proud of the fact that our country was the most powerful and important in the world for a period of time. In that respect, I think a lot of pride in the empire is not for the empire itself, but rather the might and glory that it represented.
It does have a constitution, it's just not a single easily accessible document. It's actually a series of legislative instruments, documents and other sources which when taken together make up the constitution of Great Britain.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
This isn't true. The UK has a very old constitution that stretches back in part to as far as 1267. It's just not codified in a single document.
EDIT: Beaten like a British subject.
ScHlAuChi
Member
Yep there is plenty of reasons to be proud for inventing concentration camps and killing over 30 million indians!
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/apr/23/british-empire-crimes-ignore-atrocities
https://www.opendemocracy.net/article/globalisation/visions_reflections/british_empire
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/apr/23/british-empire-crimes-ignore-atrocities
https://www.opendemocracy.net/article/globalisation/visions_reflections/british_empire
Interesting one that.
Books like 'Empire: Blah blah bullshit (can't remember the dreary subtitle)' by Niall Ferguson are so widely read you'd think we did. Also didn't help when Michael Gove decided to dabble around in things he didn't understand and his comical conservative redrafting of the history curriculum might give the impression we are all triumphalist maniacs.see: Richard Evans for further Goveian foolery
While there has been very patriotic and (some) would say misguided histories of the Empire written in the past it has, and always will, be a ferociously debated topic.
Certain (in my view) the school curriculum doesn't deal enough with our colonial past on any level, never mind exposing our blatant acts of terror. There are plenty of historians who have written about the shameful nature of our actions, and many more have written counter histories trying to put forward the voice of the other.
However, yougov polls have found that by 3:1 Brits are proud of the Empire, and 1/3 want it still to exist. I think this comes down to a concoction of a lack of education about the acts carried out, a continued patriotic triumphalism from certain sects of the establishment and a lack of proliferation of counter narratives.
jimbobsmells
Member
I was never taught about the empire at school. I remember history lessons being approx 50% Henry 8th and his wives (plus a bit of Hastings), and 50% world war 2 and how awesome we were at kicking Nazi arse.
But then I did go to a really shite school.
Education is the key here, but not a shaming 'everyone be horrified at how evil we were' curriculum. Just lay the facts out, good and bad.
But then I did go to a really shite school.
Education is the key here, but not a shaming 'everyone be horrified at how evil we were' curriculum. Just lay the facts out, good and bad.
Sure, I'm not proposing some shame fest, apologies if I came across as some wooly liberal apologist idiot. There our far more favourable episodes, suffragettes, our role in the abolition of slavery. But there should be a shift in our historical curriculum as a chronicle of british military victories to something more balanced.
Also it shouldn't simply be a fact-fest, the historical approach/thinking should be taught as well as basis of fact.
recommend this short sunday politics bit from Richard Evans/Starkey (apologies in advance) and if you have some more time; Evans again debating Ferguson about what history british children should be taught
See, this is the kind of shit I'm talking about. You think Genghis Khan let Mesopotamia go because the Turks asked nicely? That's not how empires work!
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
British Empire vs. Soviet Union, go.
ScHlAuChi
Member
I think what we see here, is the UK suffering from an inferiority complex. In a globalized world where they sem to become more and more irrelevant, they turn to isolation and cling to their past glory when Britain was king of the world. This can be evidenced by the rather large nationalistic tendencies with UKIP & Co (Britain first etc)
This is rather disturbing - I bet most of those Brits that said they are proud of it, dont know they invented concentration camps (and not the Germans) and that the empire killed waaaay more people than Hitler ever did. Then again, they might just claim thats all lies, and who can blame them if all they learn in school is how good the empire was.
Z..
Member
No shit... -.-'
jimbobsmells
Member
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