outunderthestars
Banned
Is it sad that I keep opening the thread to read their inevitable project cancellation announcement?
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Retro VGS, cartridge-based retro game console now on IndieGoGo
- Thread starter Dreamwriter
- Start date
NeOak
Member
WAIT! WAIT!WAIT!WAIT!WAIT!WAIT!
I just reread your post.
Do you mean to tell me they didn't even know Kickstarter required prototypes until I told them?! They never even took a look at the Kickstarter rules? That would explain why they violated so many rules and why they invested so much into the 3D renders.
Un-fuckin' believable.
I think Dream means that Mike was considering Kickstarter bending the rules for them, until they caught wind that you and others were complaining (rightfully so), then went with IGG to avoid further backlash. The forum complaints is what was brought to their attention. I think he obviously already knew that prototypes were a normal requirement of KS.
Any clarification on this for the non-tech-minded here? Are the hardware guys truly out of touch with modern tech? I know sometimes legitimate old pros lose their touch or stick with outmoded ways.
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
Where are you seeing this?
NoFaceNico
Member
Ah, okay. Still if they think their success or failure simply comes down to being on Indiegogo, they're once again trying to pass the blame for their own failures onto someone else. Their failure has very little to do with Indiegogo or Kickstarter and much to do with themselves.
Muppet of a Man
Member
I don't understand why they didn't go with a discrete solution of some sort where the ARM core(s)/SOC and FPGA were different pieces of silicon (i.e., either the ARM core/SOC just in the console with an FPGA in each cart when needed, an FPGA "extender" cart a la a 32x add-on, or just 2 separate pieces of silicon in the console itself as in the ZYBO Zynq-7000 Development Board someone posted a link to before). The concession they would need to make is that they would be emulating previous console's hardware, but at least they could pull off custom hardware graphics acceleration with the FPGA.
NeOak
Member
Old consoles have a chip that handles the different video outputs and converts the signals. But this is a discrete component, and for example these things are integrated now in modern SoCs for cost, unless you need a specific output.
What Kevtris proposed meant using the signal that the GPU or whatever handled video be converted by the FPGA instead of having to use a extra chip. That way you could have any kind of signal output handled by the FPGA instead of being limited to what the chip can do.
Transceiver and Buffer is pulling the pixel information from the video buffer and drawing it on the screen.
If I got this wrong, please let me know.
Dreamwriter
Member
No, this morning they said this on Facebook:
RetroVGS said:
So it really was NoFaceNico's post that brought that rule to their attention.
Sorcerer
Member
He talks about it in the podcast I linked to earlier. The newest Retrogamer Roundup episode.
Its worth a listen for the hilarity of some of the things they say.
All of the quotes in my post come directly from this particular show.
Man, I used to have a lot of respect for these guys before this.
NeOak
Member
Cool.
If they use a Zynq-7000, you will know they got the idea from my post.
To be fair, that SoC has both things integrated in the same package, so only one chip.
Even Intel showed a Xeon with a FPGA in the same package.
That's terrible. My interpretation was that they're fickle and quick to change their minds. Your clarification makes them seem incompetent and too lazy to do basic research.
NeOak, thanks for explaining. It would seem they're lacking the knowledge to put a basic prototype together.
My take on the Phantasy Star is a homebrew RPG inspired by PS. They're using it as a generic term like "we have a Street Fighter and a Mario for our system." That's still highly misleading.
Sorcerer
Member
The way he says it in the podcast, he makes it seem like its an official Phantasy Star and its a done deal.
He says it in the context that game companies would love to make sequels to their 16 bit games and Retro VGS finally gives them the opportunity. I mentioned before he claims compainies are getting smaller teams together to make games for the system while bigger teams continue to focus on triple AAA development elsewhere.
He also mentions something about imagine if Final Fantasy games were on the system.
I don't know why game companies need the Retro VGS to make make retro sequels and why they are besides themselves to have them distributed on cartridge. Doesn't make sense.
Well tbh if the thing was a success I could imagine squenix republishing FF1&2 on it. It's already on everything imaginable, from the the PS store to the GBA and every type of phone imaginable, even old Java phones.
If RETRO were to be willing to swallow the costs of the cartridges and make a deal were squenix can't lose money, which I'm sure they would do, they would have Final Fantasy on their console. Instant credibility boost in the public opinion, even if it wouldn't mean much for the industry.
The mention of Phantasy Star makes no sense, as we know SEGA can be very oblivious to the potential succes of their japanese IP in the West. With a lot of stretch I could see a release of their SEGA Classics brand in some form, but a new episode, made by SEGA? Not a chance.
But not on the Virtual Console for no reason.
The mention of Phantasy Star makes no sense, as we know SEGA can be very oblivious to the potential succes of their japanese IP in the West. With a lot of stretch I could see a release of their SEGA Classics brand in some form, but a new episode, made by SEGA? Not a chance.
ElectricThunder
Member
The depths of insanity and delusion this has sunk to are maddening. "Phantasy Star"...really?
At this rate, the only thing crazier than them outright dreaming that up would've been for them to have noticed Robert at Zeboyd posting in this topic, looked up who/what, then made the most giant logical leap of all time to then conclude that it constituted Zeboyd's Interest in Support for the VGS in terms of the in dev CSH!~
I mean, if they get their hot tips for how KS works at fundamental levels from Nico on here, hell, that's not even that many degrees of crazy removed.
What if their "~150 devs" are just outfits they mass mail spammed/hit up via craigslist(I would die of laughter if BlackShellMedia were somehow involved in this) and didn't get an immediate automated bounceback from? "Hmm, no reply, no auto-block---that must mean they are deeply considering it! Put them down on the big board!"
At this rate, the only thing crazier than them outright dreaming that up would've been for them to have noticed Robert at Zeboyd posting in this topic, looked up who/what, then made the most giant logical leap of all time to then conclude that it constituted Zeboyd's Interest in Support for the VGS in terms of the in dev CSH!~
I mean, if they get their hot tips for how KS works at fundamental levels from Nico on here, hell, that's not even that many degrees of crazy removed.
What if their "~150 devs" are just outfits they mass mail spammed/hit up via craigslist(I would die of laughter if BlackShellMedia were somehow involved in this) and didn't get an immediate automated bounceback from? "Hmm, no reply, no auto-block---that must mean they are deeply considering it! Put them down on the big board!"
Ninja Scooter
Member
Sega can't be bothered to translate PSO2 for the tens of millions of English speaking PS4 owners, or won't create a new Phantasy Star for the millions and millions of people who own a 3DS, or any number of mobile devices, but the Retro VGS and it's userbase of 168 is going to make them get up and take notice? Ok guy.
Sorcerer
Member
For those who want to hear the Phantasy Star Comment go to 1:21:10 and wait until 1:21:15
http://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/3/6/c/36c46b57c796ea81/RoundUp091_2015.09.16.mp3?c_id=9843120&expiration=1443058249&hwt=075c51bf04744cae7f82f31a6bf02b6f
http://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/3/6/c/36c46b57c796ea81/RoundUp091_2015.09.16.mp3?c_id=9843120&expiration=1443058249&hwt=075c51bf04744cae7f82f31a6bf02b6f
xDUMPWEEDx
Banned
Just listened to it. It honestly sounds to me like there's a barely enunciated "if" in there, or at least a beat where there might be one. As he goes on he's saying there's a market for a system that would have that, not that this one does yet. I still think he's wrong, mind.
I'm done giving him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to oddball statements. Insanity.
Sorcerer
Member
Alright, he may be off the hook because he says "There is like a new Phantasy Star coming out on this." So that like might make the difference.
The odd thing is though in one section of the podcast, he mentions how no cores will be implemented into the system, without the permission/approval of the various console owners, Sega, Nintendo, etc. But they have no problems letting sequel clones of popular games onto the system?
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
Okay, just listened to it and the way it's phrased isn't as bad as some people are making it seem. He basically just says that they've talked to some people who have said that if there's a viable market, they might be willing to talk (which is quite possibly just a polite way of saying no thanks, stop talking to me), and then he talks about how he hopes that Retro VGS can evolve into the kind of system that could support low budget sequels to classic series like Phantasy Star. Everything I heard sounded purely speculative - IF the system is a success, we might be able to do something like this. And that's a nice dream, but if you can't convince Sega to make a cheap Phantasy Star V on a popular platform, good luck convincing them to make one for an unpopular one.
I hope that when our game comes out, it'll prove that there is a viable market for stuff like a Phantasy Star V or a Lunar 3 or other new entries in classic RPG series. Of course, that viable market would be PSN, Steam, Xbox Live, etc. and not an expensive cartridge-based niche system.
jhmtehgamr20xx
Banned
Those 168 are the Chosen Ones™. The life of just one of them are worth more than the entire population of Boston, New York, and Las Vegas combined. They have direct psychometric connections with the Space Moor Football King, and each bestowed with a golden football in their precious bellies.
We are nothing compared to them.
We are nothing compared to them.
That doesn't even grammatically make sense. You're representing a supposedly professional corporation in a public interview and can't even get your grammar straight? And you want my money? FOH.
Sorcerer
Member
He could be talking about a clone, but its more powerful to invoke the name Phantasy Star, without actually saying Phantasy Star is actually coming. He fooled me until I listened back more carefully.
Anyway why would anyone commit to anything before the crowd funding campaign even started? This was a few days before.
I am sure they are not as optimistic as they were when they recorded this podcast.
Vipershark
Member
What bothers me the most about this is that he says "there's no platform for these 16-bit era looking games"
Emphasis on "looking".
Nobody is going to buy a console specifically for Shovel Knight and VVVVVV.
closer013
Member
I would if the price was reasonable. i.e. NOT 300 - 400 dollars.
panda-zebra
Member
Sampled it and replayed over and over "you know, if there's a new Phantasy Star coming out on this..."
This link might work but never used it before, sample with specific part repeated.
NoFaceNico
Member
You guys are barking up the wrong tree. Before you start analyzing that Phantasy Star quote under a microscope listen to a few of the other podcast interviews. He brings up the "if this gets big enough we might get sequels to your favorite retro games" pitch very often. It's part of his schtick. I know he even specifically brings up Phantasy Star more than once. Each time it's definitely in the context of hoping the VGS gets big enough to attract big IPs. It's another way for him to say- if you help me sell this thing then anything is possible.
pots and pans
Member
Very minor thing I noticed, but still amusing - the whole point of this console is basically to go back to the way things were in the "good ol' days", which includes doing without anything that involves that pesky internet. Yet every reward tier except for the highest one gets you a DIGITAL subscription to their magazine. Not very retro, guys.
Joking aside, I have no strong feelings on this system one way or another. I'm not going to wish failure upon them, but I'm not backing it either.
Joking aside, I have no strong feelings on this system one way or another. I'm not going to wish failure upon them, but I'm not backing it either.
If he does manage to fund his console, then I'll believe anything is possible indeed.
I wasn't super-invested in this project, but I was mildly curious about it if they could keep the price low and get a decent amount of games announced at launch. Now that the price has ballooned to that of a current-gen console price and that the only official title announced that's worthwhile is Gunlord? Yeah, my curiosity is pretty much maxed-out at this point.
Vipershark
Member
Fund the console *in its current form.
...
"form"
I'd still be up for buying it if he actually fixed all the issues with the campaign and its priorities and relaunched later.
Sorcerer
Member
Well thanks for that, I hear the IF now. Case closed. There is no Phantasy Star coming out for the Retro Vgs. Not that the Retro Vgs is coming out anyway so its a non-issue regardless.
panda-zebra
Member
Vipershark
Member
straight for the throat, ouch
outunderthestars
Banned
Not really on topic, but just wanted to say that you have my money on day one.
xDUMPWEEDx
Banned
Just checked the IGG to see the numbers:
-195 backers (164 backers buying the actual console)
-$68,128 USD raised of $1,950,000 USD.
I know a lot of 3rd party outlets are trying to push this system on YouTube, FB, etc., and it's certainly gotten them a few more backers. The problem is that only a few of these new backers are buying the actual console, with the majority of them only backing the $10 or $25 tier.
-195 backers (164 backers buying the actual console)
-$68,128 USD raised of $1,950,000 USD.
I know a lot of 3rd party outlets are trying to push this system on YouTube, FB, etc., and it's certainly gotten them a few more backers. The problem is that only a few of these new backers are buying the actual console, with the majority of them only backing the $10 or $25 tier.
Dreamwriter
Member
I would think that would be the norm on IndieGoGo, though - since it takes the money up front, for many people it would be best to pledge a few bucks now to get updates and reminders and then wait until the end and pledge the rest then.
xDUMPWEEDx
Banned
I really don't like that style compared to KS. I think it really hurts the amount of backers.
If people didn't have to immediately part with their money, many more would have backed this already resulting in a much more positive outlook and a ton more hype.
Since the IGG is progressing so slowly with a zero chance of success, why would someone want to deposit $350+ just so IGG can hold onto your money for another 41 days before giving it back to you? It's an absolutely unnecessary extra step and inconvenience.
If people didn't have to immediately part with their money, many more would have backed this already resulting in a much more positive outlook and a ton more hype.
Since the IGG is progressing so slowly with a zero chance of success, why would someone want to deposit $350+ just so IGG can hold onto your money for another 41 days before giving it back to you? It's an absolutely unnecessary extra step and inconvenience.
Kawika
Member
To be honest, I tried to go back and play those old PS games and I don't think they've aged that well. On the other hand, I've really enjoyed your games. So maybe this is for the best.
NoFaceNico
Member
We know the RVGS team is hoping to be picked up by a big news site, which could hopefully make it "go viral" and funnel in backers. But I was thinking about it and I don't believe big sites would pick up the story. Or at least it won't be the glowing piece of free advertising they hoped for.
Think about it this way- car news sites would report about a remodeled Corvette as soon as they can get the scoop. But they don't make a new story when preorders for it are announced. Or when they show up on dealer lots. Even though I'm sure GM would wish they would report on that, it's simply not news.
So in other words, I think the sites that have/had an interest in the VGS already covered it. When the IGG campaign went live there's no real story there, we've known they were going to crowdfunding for over half a year. I think this is a mistake that many crowdfunding project creators fall into because I've seen it before. They think their idea is novel and so of course it'll get reported on every step of the way, right? And that's all free advertising for them, right? Notice that the RVGS team plans to spend 4% of total funding on rent while advertising only gets half of that because of course this thing advertises itself so you never even have to worry about one of the biggest problems with developing a product. Meanwhile, the news is reporting on the latest cartridge story...
Finally, game cartridges you can plug in to your smart phone
Maybe this one will go viral.
Think about it this way- car news sites would report about a remodeled Corvette as soon as they can get the scoop. But they don't make a new story when preorders for it are announced. Or when they show up on dealer lots. Even though I'm sure GM would wish they would report on that, it's simply not news.
So in other words, I think the sites that have/had an interest in the VGS already covered it. When the IGG campaign went live there's no real story there, we've known they were going to crowdfunding for over half a year. I think this is a mistake that many crowdfunding project creators fall into because I've seen it before. They think their idea is novel and so of course it'll get reported on every step of the way, right? And that's all free advertising for them, right? Notice that the RVGS team plans to spend 4% of total funding on rent while advertising only gets half of that because of course this thing advertises itself so you never even have to worry about one of the biggest problems with developing a product. Meanwhile, the news is reporting on the latest cartridge story...
Finally, game cartridges you can plug in to your smart phone
Maybe this one will go viral.
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
Which one's did you play? Phantasy Star 2 & 3 haven't aged all that well, but I think 4 is still highly playable even today.
Crash55118
Member
At least they detailed their plans before launching to give people time to really analyze the situation instead of throwing money at it during a surprise announcement.
Honestly this may have succeeded if they launched the campaign right when they started talking about it.
Honestly this may have succeeded if they launched the campaign right when they started talking about it.
Sorcerer
Member
You also have to factor in that all the early promotion was talking about a relatively different product at a different price point. Changing to a more grandiose idea near the end of that promotion and more towards the beginning of the indiegogo campaign probably did them no favors and confused the situation.
They only ever had a Jaguar shell, then and now, no prototype. Nothing to get excited about. The theoretical specs are all on paper if that.
xDUMPWEEDx
Banned
I completely agree. At the $149-199 range it is practically impulse buy territory. Also a simpler hardware design would have been a much more realistic option for such a small team.
Everything shown about this project, except for the Jaguar mold, has been nothing but smoke and mirrors. The only form any actual hardware exists on is some specs written on the back of a Domino's pizza napkin. At $149, I trust Mike enough that I am fine with this fact. Hell, even $199 for a high quality system would be cool.
But $299/$350 + $40 shipping + $40-60 per game is just too much money for what they currently have, which is basically nothing more than hopes and dreams.
Damnit. I really wanted this console too. I've been looking forward to the Kickstarter for months. Fuck.
NoFaceNico
Member
That's part of the charm of this project.
But for $149, even though I'd be interested, I still wouldn't trust them without showing a prototype. At a lower price point, I still wouldn't trust them to make a prototype down the road. They've kinda dug themselves into a rut by launching without one.
ultrazilla
Member
Wow. I'm all for mild jabs and such but this is pretty sickening. Parody or not.
Teaming up with ISIS? Seriously? That's just bottom of the barrel and not funny.
Reading their visitor comments section, one of their main vocal supporters/backers has pulled his pledges.
This is a trainwreck Mike. Pull the campaign and try to salvage any image you have left.
Hero_of_the_Day
Member
As soon as my SCART cable shows up for Genesis I am getting on Phantasy Star IV. I played the fuck out of it back in highschool, but never finished it for some reason. I absolutely loved what I played, need to get back on it. The cinematics were crazy to me back then.
xDUMPWEEDx
Banned
I would agree if I didn't know anything about Mike. While I don't know him in person, I thought he did a great job on the 1st year of RETRO magazine. He also
comes off as a genuine person and hardcore game fan in interviews.
I've been so critical of this project lately because I feel a few late lapses in judgement has permanently killed off the Retro VGS, a console I've been following since it was announced.