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Escapist runs piece on Star Citizen employee woes. Disputed sources.

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The cult-like attacks on Star Citizen on NeoGAF and elsewhere enable me to take this with a lot of skepticism.

It wasn't long ago that NeoGAF was attacking The Escapist as being a garbage publication, but blind hatred isn't known for producing wisdom and sense.

This sounds dismissive

Star Citizen is an easy target with what they are trying to do and with what is happening to large kickstarter projects in the ecosystem

Instead of making arrogant responses he should probably let it lie and continue engaging with his community

I dont envy his position... I wonder if he regrets shooting for the moon right off the bat.

Instead of first walking up some steps he decided to build a damn monorail (yes I know this analogy is stupid)
 
....why the hell would you make this public voluntarily? When you're to the point where you are screenshotting Twitter, this seems just like bad PR in general.

I'm starting to be on the side that this game is going to turn out to be a scam and is never coming out. I know they had lofty goals, but given all the stories like this that have come out of the woodwork about it, it certainly seems shady. Throw on top of that the fact that this game has raised NINETY ONE MILLION DOLLARS in crowdfunding and yet still fuckall has come out of it. CIG is a fairly large developer now, at least they should be. With hundred-thousand dollar ships being sold, yeah, they have plenty of income.

Funny story, I actually talked to someone that used to work for CIG once and they claimed that Frontier (Elite: Dangerous) stole their renderer or something like that. I have no idea if there is any truth to that claim or not, and totally doubt there is.

Elite: Dangerous was born from a kickstarter, and actually came out as a satisfying game that is still being expanded upon. There were no empty promises, we got exactly what we were promised and more is on the way. Star Citizen was even more funded than Elite: Dangerous, and here we are with just the Hangar and Combat modules, with a ton of content still missing.


Yeah as much as people like to bitch about Elite I find the whole project just well managed and honest. I think Elite and Star Citizen on are complete opposite spectrum of project management.
 
I have a feeling that crowd funding is going to get some intrusive regulations before long, and this project will probably be the impetus for it.
 
okay, Derek Smart sounds like a bitter sad sociopath.

everything Chris writes sounds logical, then you visit Derek's blog - yeah Derek's a sad human being.

I don't see how you can look at Chris's response and say it's logical. The first part is basically some tinfoil conspiracy theory about Derek Smart and Gamergate connections.

Anyone with PR worth a damn never would have signed off on that. It's the Dan Gilbert letter all over again.
 

SilentRob

Member
I was ready to cry foul at Chris Roberts - but really, really, REALLY do read his response.

There are some amazing GamerGate-shenanigans going on with the article's author. Sad to see that TheEscapist is still very much part of that scene and lets it influence their reporting, even going so far as to trust anything freaking Derek Smarts says.
 

Bizazedo

Member
Derek Smart? As in the Battlecruiser 3000 or whatever guy?

Wasn't he deemed.....volatile....like 20 years ago? Like, literally two decades?
 

Jinkies

Member
I'm unfamiliar with all this drama but to me it sounds like Chris Roberts wants to make a game and Derek Smart wants attention

I doubt the development of any AAA game would look much different from Star Citizen. The only difference is the blinds are open so you can get a peek at how much of a shit show it is to make games.
Just imagine if we had this transparency during MGSV's development or virtually any R* title. Non-stop "scandal" to last a lifetime.

This is partly why many developers, especially Japanese developers, remain as opaque as possible.
 

Agremont

Member
Elite: Dangerous was born from a kickstarter, and actually came out as a satisfying game that is still being expanded upon. There were no empty promises, we got exactly what we were promised and more is on the way. Star Citizen was even more funded than Elite: Dangerous, and here we are with just the Hangar and Combat modules, with a ton of content still missing.

Except the no offline thing which was a pretty big deal to a lot of backers.
 
Just imagine if we had this transparency during MGSV's development or virtually any R* title. Non-stop "scandal" to last a lifetime.

This is partly why many developers, especially Japanese developers, remain as opaque as possible.

He doesnt get that luxury since he funded through kickstarter

maybe the social baggage is what is so distracting
 

Danthrax

Batteries the CRISIS!
I don't see how you can look at Chris's response and say it's logical. The first part is basically some tinfoil conspiracy theory about Derek Smart and Gamergate connections.

Anyone with PR worth a damn never would have signed off on that. It's the Dan Gilbert letter all over again.

And just like Dan Gilbert, no one says no to the man at the top. Chris Roberts says that he sent the letter through his director of communications, but that director apparently was unwilling to edit Roberts' stuff. I agree, it's over the top and kinda isn't a good look, but on the other hand, it's incredibly interesting to read.
 

Toxi

Banned
I'm confused, is Chris Roberts' really naive enough to think Gamer Gate is about Ethics in Games Journalism? I thought maybe he was taking the piss on this one but then he kind of kept going with it.
No. Read the entire letter. His employees have been harassed by the movement and he's criticizing the Escapist's shitty journalism considering that website has been sucking up to a movement that claims to be about "ethics in video games journalism."
 

Hylian7

Member
I was ready to cry foul at Chris Roberts - but really, really, REALLY do read his response.

There are some amazing GamerGate-shenanigans going on with the article's author. Sad to see that TheEscapist is still very much part of that scene and lets it influence their reporting, even going so far as to trust anything freaking Derek Smarts says. I mean, jesus christ.

Honestly I think they are both scumbags. Derek Smarts is no doubt a scumbag, but at the same time this response by Roberts reads like a stupid smear campaign. It was fine to mention the thing about Line of Defense, but then you throw in "OH HE'S A GAMERGATER TOO, AND HE KICKS PUPPIES!" and it just seems like it's a smear campaign and that's it. Don't get me wrong, Gamergate is a hive of scum and villainy, complete and total garbage, but I don't see how it relates to this whole thing at all. It's not really something your company should be writing about someone, as it's just bad PR.
 

Fractal

Banned
In all honestly, I believe Star Citizen is shaping up nicely to be a massive disappointment. Space sims aren't exactly my type of games so I don't follow this whole thing too closely, but I'm not getting the impression of the development going smoothly. Unchecked ambition and a lot of money are a dangerous combination.

I'd love to see a new "Crysis", but here I'm rather skeptical.
 
No. Read the entire letter. His employees have been harassed by the movement.

I did, that's why I'm confused.

The whole thing is dumb anyhow. We have two dudes who haven't made shit in over a decade fighting over who is the bigger scam artist.
 

Raticus79

Seek victory, not fairness
I dunno but he is getting more defensive than usual in that response

Criticism fatigue setting in?

He was also up until 5AM writing it.

"I would like to point out that ever since I got your email from David I have been working on this response. I worked on this until 5am last night, and a couple more hours this morning in the UK, where I am currently am in preparation for CitizenCon in a week from Saturday. Conservatively it’s taken me about eight hours to write. This is time I could have spent working on the game instead of dealing with a Derek Smart instigated drama. And this is really what annoys me – that his silly rantings occasionally gain traction and pull me away from the very thing I prefer to do and the very thing everyone wants me to do and the very thing Derek Smart accuses me of not doing – FINISHING THE GAME! By constantly tweeting, writing blogs and soliciting journalists in the background to report his “findings” he’s waging guerrilla warfare on my time, the time of other key executives, and the peace of mind of our employees and backers."
 

Hylian7

Member
Except the no offline thing which was a pretty big deal to a lot of backers.

And they were pretty honest about how that had to change. I mean I totally understand the backers being upset about that one, but they did offer refunds over that. I get why they didn't keep the offline play: Mainly because that everything you do effects the game world globally, and to actually do that you have to be online, other things are going to be completely out of sync for you.
 

Jinkies

Member
He doesnt get that luxury since he funded through kickstarter

maybe the social baggage is what is so distracting
I think it's a very good thing that CIG is so transparent. It's challenging conventional game development, and it's a lot of fun for the fans, which has been Chris Roberts' stated intention since the beginning. But it also makes the attackers louder than they would be for any other project.

"Look, look! They had to redo these assets! The project is a scam! And here are some other things that I have no proof for, which you should believe because the game is taking so long!"
 
In all honestly, I believe Star Citizen is shaping up nicely to be a massive disappointment. Space sims aren't exactly my type of games so I don't follow this whole thing too closely, but I'm not getting the impression of the development going smoothly. Unchecked ambition and a lot of money are a dangerous combination.

I'd love to see a new "Crysis", but here I'm rather skeptical.

It bums me out that Chris is aware that it makes more sense to aim lower and shoots for the moon anyway and justifies it as a way to appeal to fans and supporters

I dunno... I see a lot of criticism form the outside but until those on the inside revolt I really dont see a story here
 

Ralemont

not me
I'm unfamiliar with all this drama but to me it sounds like Chris Roberts wants to make a game and Derek Smart wants attention

I doubt the development of any AAA game would look much different from Star Citizen. The only difference is the blinds are open so you can get a peek at how much of a shit show it is to make games.

If bosses are rolling around every AAA dev process calling people faggots and saying "We aren't hiring a black girl," then surely it's still a problem?
 

inm8num2

Member
I gave $1 to the Star Citizen kickstarter, just for the hell of it. I haven't really followed anything in the past couple years, but it's crazy how big this project has become. Maybe that's worked against the team's best interests...maybe Roberts should have cut off funding after a certain amount was raised. I don't know, just talking out of my ass. Either way it's never healthy to have this kind of interpersonal drama on a project that's already facing some heat for taking too long.
 

joecanada

Member
I'm unfamiliar with all this drama but to me it sounds like Chris Roberts wants to make a game and Derek Smart wants attention

I doubt the development of any AAA game would look much different from Star Citizen. The only difference is the blinds are open so you can get a peek at how much of a shit show it is to make games.

If the writer has several sources regarding the inhumane treatment of employees, its unlikely to be completely false, maybe exaggerated a little... doesn't sound like any other successful company to me.

also this " intended to allow them to meet a November 2014 release date while still adding the additional content."

sounds like a few AAA releases but not many successful ones.

Worst case scenario: Game doesn't come out at all, lawsuit under new crowdfunding controls

My estimation: game comes out and is a buggy mess and a shell of what people expected, as budgets these days are wayyy more than CR is aware of, see Kingdoms of Amalur.... even the most minor red flags in this story if remotely true point to an incomplete product or vastly scaled down project.

Best Case: ??
 

Shadownet

Banned
Man I feel Star Citizen is going to crash and burn..

If all of these allegations are true than it's probably as bad as working for Konami. Using company funds for your mansion and vacations? Come on..
 

Fehyd

Banned
Everything is sunshine and roses in the other thread.

Tbh the rebuttal almost sounds borderline unhinged to me.
 

JackHerer

Member
I don't believe this game will come close to realizing its vision but I hope I'm wrong. I don't know what to believe anymore and it seems like Roberts is trying a bit too hard to sling some mud himself rather than adequately refuting the claims being made. That doesn't look too good. Still, no way of knowing what's BS and what isn't here so perhaps those are all lies and he is just letting his frustration get the better of him.
 

jschreier

Member
I'd believe it more if it was Kotaku doing it. Who knows, maybe they are working on something too.
Yeah, we've been hearing from and talking to various current and former employees at CIG for a while now. I've spent a ton of time editing and working with others on the team and we've published a couple of things so far. Part of our job is to determine what's relevant, concrete information that's actually worth reporting and what's just gossip from employees who are angry for one reason or another.

FWIW, this is one of the most disgusting pieces of reporting I've ever seen, and I'm legit shocked that any professional website would publish something like "It was also claimed that Gardiner used race as a determining factor in selecting employees, allegedly once saying 'We aren't hiring her. We aren't hiring a black girl'" without crystal-clear sourcing and evidence (and without giving the person in question a chance to defend herself).

What's really ironic is that the Escapist article's author is a huge figure of GamerGate, a movement about ethics in journalism.
 

AwShucks

Member
Personally think this should be less about any "project woes" and more about what a horrible person Derek Smart seems to be and why a supposedly professional site like The Escapist would go about things this way.
 
Everything is sunshine and roses in the other thread.

Tbh the rebuttal almost sounds borderline unhinged to me.

He would have been better off not responding

I dunno man

I feel like "Open development/Early Access" style games need to be small scale and experimental

At least at that level the turn around between playable near complete versions of the game is short and you can go through many builds relatively quickly

This looks like something so much bigger.... it doesnt seem achievable... too many cooks, cogs, distractions

AAA studios with set budgets and deadlines are struggling right now... even the BIG guys
 

Fractal

Banned
It bums me out that Chris is aware that it makes more sense to aim lower and shoots for the moon anyway and justifies it as a way to appeal to fans and supporters

I dunno... I see a lot of criticism form the outside but until those on the inside revolt I really dont see a story here
I believe the biggest danger here is the record amount of money they got through their crowdfunding campaign, which pretty much exceeded all expectations. It's possible it diluted their original vision and made them want to do everything, and that's not a healthy approach to game development.

I have no idea who this "employee" is or how much can he be trusted, but what he describes does sound like a troubled crowdfunding project lacking restraint and a clear direction... if I were a backer, it would definitely raise some suspicions.
 
I think it's really weird how he handwaves the racism/sexist allegations as just a "private HR issue". He had no problem refuting or explaining everything else, but that's a private issue?

Makes me believe there is some truth to that.
 

Jinkies

Member
Do people not realize that this game had alphas for every module they do?
Hell they've even created awesome issue tracker for community to post the bugs. They have the most awesome tools to catch the bugs before going fully live.
Of course they don't realize this. :)

People who follow the development and watch as the game becomes more mature and complete are not worried about its current status. However, it will be 2-3 years before everything promised is completed, that much is clear.
 

Amir0x

Banned
Yeah, we've been hearing from and talking to various current and former employees at CIS for a while now. I've spent a ton of time editing and working with others on the team and we've published a couple of things so far. Part of our job is to determine what's relevant, concrete information that's actually worth reporting and what's just gossip from employees who are angry for one reason or another.

FWIW, this is one of the most disgusting pieces of reporting I've ever seen, and I'm legit shocked that any professional website would publish something like "It was also claimed that Gardiner used race as a determining factor in selecting employees, allegedly once saying 'We aren't hiring her. We aren't hiring a black girl'" without crystal-clear sourcing and evidence (and without giving the person in question a chance to defend herself).

What's really ironic is that the Escapist article's author is a huge figure of GamerGate, a movement about ethics in journalism.

It really is gross. I'm not even all that confident about Star Citizen myself and I still think it's gross. Escapist is terrible, Gamergate is terrible, the author is terrible, and I feel worse for having spent the time to even read part of it. Thanks for wasting my time yet again, Escapist. Shitty fucking website.
 
Of course they don't realize this. :)

People who follow the development and watch as the game becomes more mature and complete are not worried about its current status. However, it will be 2-3 years before everything promised is completed, that much is clear.

ouch

I mean thats on the long side for development but its not like this is a traditional project

im legit amazing at the community support and dedication considering how harsh many other communities are
 
It was also alleged that Roberts' wife and Cloud Imperium Games Vice President of Marketing Sandi Gardiner enforced discriminatory hiring practices. CS1 reported that they were instructed to, first, check the education field on a prospective employee's resume. If too much time had passed, Gardiner reportedly informed people not to hire them, because "they may be over 40, which makes them a protected class and harder to fire." It was also claimed that Gardiner used race as a determining factor in selecting employees, allegedly once saying "We aren't hiring her. We aren't hiring a black girl."

Sources indicate that multiple complaints have been taken to the Human Resource department against Gardiner, with little assistance on the matter - HR, after all, ultimately answers to Roberts and Gardiner.

"She would write emails with so much profanity. She would call people stupid, retard, faggot. Accuse men of not having balls. And she was incredibly hostile to other female employees," CS4 stated. "Sandi is very jealous. She has to be the queen bee at the company. Whenever I was around her, I felt like I was in the presence of a cobra who, at that moment, might not have been inclined to strike but was completely willing to. You don't get on her bad side," CS3 added. "There were two things you were told, when you were hired. One, you don't talk about [Roberts and Gardiner] being married, to anyone. Ever. And two, you don't make Sandi mad."

The fuck is going on in that company?
 

Fehyd

Banned
I find it weird that the rebuttal is basically "It was Derek Smart Allll Aloooong!"

Those 7 sources you talked to and that you vetted and independently corroborated? All of them were Derek Smart.

This 2 full anonymous ones too? Derek Smart.

The writer knows Derek Smart? DEREK SMART.


Seems like people are anxious to pin everything on Smart, barring logic.
 

Jinkies

Member
ouch

I mean thats on the long side for development but its not like this is a traditional project

im legit amazing at the community support and dedication considering how harsh many other communities are
Similar to ARK, the majority of Star Citizen will be in the hands of backers before it is "done." I think that softens the wait considerably for many fans.
 

Raticus79

Seek victory, not fairness
It's a good thing they have Citizencon coming up on Oct 10. It'll help to have some signs of progress.
 

Dr.Acula

Banned

I read this, and while it's a little ranty (owing to the admission that he stayed up all hours to write it in order to meet The Escapist's 'deadline' for publication -and this response was ignored by The Escapist anyway, apparently), it seems pretty honest.

And wow, this being linked to Gamer Gate as well. I can't believe how far GG's filth has extended.

The worst part about crowd funding is that people really do not understand game development at all. I'm not in games myself, but imagine if The Witcher 3 or GTA V were crowd funded. Imagine if 3 years into their development (SC KS Oct. 2012) people started ranting about how W3 and GTAV were pyramid schemes and vapourware.
 
Everything is sunshine and roses in the other thread.

Tbh the rebuttal almost sounds borderline unhinged to me.

Yeah, this whole situation stinks--Smart (obviously), the anonymous but serious allegations from Escapist, Roberts' unprofessional response.

Yeah as much as people like to bitch about Elite I find the whole project just well managed and honest. I think Elite and Star Citizen on are complete opposite spectrum of project management.

Honestly, in a weird way, this whole thing almost makes me feel warm and fuzzy about FD's somewhat conservative approach to Elite.
 
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