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[Rumor] No Man's Sky Development / Technical Issues (Podquisition)

mike4001_

Member
This is one of those game where so much could go wrong.

I can see a 90 Metacritic but would also not be surprised if gameplay doesn´t hold up and it gets something in the 70s.

I see that they want to create something new ... but noone knows if this can hold up.

Add this to technical difficulties ...

=> Don´t preorder and wait for reviews on this one.
 

Nzyme32

Member
Unfortunately, a few places have reported on it. All citing this thread with the Soundcloud link, I messaged Sean but he's not very active on Twitter but I suspect if there's mainstream sites publishing the same silly rumour he might be more inclined to comment.

[GearNuke] - No Man’s Sky development may be in trouble, PS4 version facing considerable issues
[GamingBolt] - No Man’s Sky On PS4 And PC Rumored To Be Having Pretty Severe Technical Issues
[PlayStation Lifestyle] - Rumor: No Man’s Sky Might Be Undergoing Technical Complications
[GamePur] - No Man's Sky Being Continuously Delayed Due To Technical Issues, E3 2015 Demo Was Showcased On PC

*sigh*

These aren't exactly "mainstream" sites. These are more of the clickbaity sites. In the end anyone with some commonsense can see the rumours as they are, for an in development product. The only interesting part is providing a possible context for the launch date *if* the rumour is true in the first place. People blowing it up into dramatic proportions can freak out all they want
 
I'm guessing they may be running into severe problems with shaders regarding the generation of the geometry of a planet on console. These techniques are usually done that way and the way they are implemented and perform can vary from platform. For example, OS X isn't getting Elite's planetary landings because techniques the tech they use that aid planetary geometry generation and so on are not available on OpenGL which OS X uses.
 
So pretty much what you'd expect for such an insanely ambitious game, especially compared to their previous work. I would have a hard time believing the promises about this game from EA or Activision--just look at all the complaints leveled at Destiny for being so limited. That's a game with half a billion in backing from a major publisher made by goddamn Bungie.

No Man's Sky is promising a FAR bigger scope and is being made by a team of like 15 people. Whose previous experience was in the Joe Danger games.

It's going to be very interesting to see how this pans out.
 

Danlord

Member
I don't get how the game has been shown off multiple times, running on PC with Game Informer, running on whatever platform looking incredibly polished on the Colbert show and live demonstration at Sony's E3

The rumour

  • No Man's Sky was meant to be at a UK event called Game City as a "hands off demo", but they cancelled their appearance, apparently due to technical issues.
    Game City was postponed, not cancelled. Unknown reason for the delay so would be improper to imply technical issues, given that many times before it has been shown off.
  • Sony's E3 Press Conference demo was not on a PS4. It was running on PC.
    I don't see this as a major cause for concern, I had suspected that games would be running on PS4 devkits or similar-spec PC, I know it happened early on in the generation
  • Considerable issues getting the game to run on PS4
    I fail to see how they would have had PlayStation VR devkits since at least July 2014 and not have it running live on the PS4. After all this time. They are more than the 4 people we knew from Joe Danger fame, and work at this point had been going on for a long time.
  • Optimisation on PC has been hell
    I'm sure that with any project, that optimisation is difficult. Combine that with the procedural generation nature of the game and the unique challenges that brings, as mentioned in an interview with Game Informer but the Colbert Show demo was noticeably more optimised and polished than previous demos so if it isn't running from a PS4 devkit, then it's PC and surely that cancels out this part of the 'rumour'.
  • Lots of technical problems getting the game to run at the scale they want
    They are already running at the scale they want, this is a very vague statement and the rumour is not very clear on what this means. I personally think this is their own conjecture.

When asked to elaborate on the rumours, she "unfortunately can't say more right now.". Unless she can provide more evidence, this is just a really bad rumour she heard from ramblings from someone without any evidence and just giving their skepticism/cynicism reason to hate this game, as it's clear from this thread that even a hint of problems, it's enough for a huge dogpiling like the "aha! I knew it !" moment was discovered and the ruse that is No Man's Sky has been uncovered.
Like in incessant "But what do you do?" posts, it's now a "See, I knew this wasn't possible/going to have troubles".
 

Nzyme32

Member
I don't get how the game has been shown off multiple times, running on PC with Game Informer, running on whatever platform looking incredibly polished on the Colbert show and live demonstration at Sony's E3

The rumour

  • No Man's Sky was meant to be at a UK event called Game City as a "hands off demo", but they cancelled their appearance, apparently due to technical issues.
    Game City was postponed, not cancelled. Unknown reason for the delay so would be improper to imply technical issues, given that many times before it has been shown off.
  • Sony's E3 Press Conference demo was not on a PS4. It was running on PC.
    I don't see this as a major cause for concern, I had suspected that games would be running on PS4 devkits or similar-spec PC, I know it happened early on in the generation
  • Considerable issues getting the game to run on PS4
    I fail to see how they would have had PlayStation VR devkits since at least July 2014 and not have it running live on the PS4. After all this time. They are more than the 4 people we knew from Joe Danger fame, and work at this point had been going on for a long time.
  • Optimisation on PC has been hell
    I'm sure that with any project, that optimisation is difficult. Combine that with the procedural generation nature of the game and the unique challenges that brings, as mentioned in an interview with Game Informer but the Colbert Show demo was noticeably more optimised and polished than previous demos so if it isn't running from a PS4 devkit, then it's PC and surely that cancels out this part of the 'rumour'.
  • Lots of technical problems getting the game to run at the scale they want
    They are already running at the scale they want, this is a very vague statement and the rumour is not very clear on what this means. I personally think this is their own conjecture.

When asked to elaborate on the rumours, she "unfortunately can't say more right now.". Unless she can provide more evidence, this is just a really bad rumour she heard from ramblings from someone without any evidence and just giving their skepticism/cynicism reason to hate this game, as it's clear from this thread that even a hint of problems, it's enough for a huge dogpiling like the "aha! I knew it !" moment was discovered and the ruse that is No Man's Sky has been uncovered.
Like in incessant "But what do you do?" posts, it's now a "See, I knew this wasn't possible/going to have troubles".

You're freaking out about this too much. By the nature of a rumour, it is dubious. People react in all kinds of ways, and often the more dramatic reactions are from those that crave it or are unwilling to pay attention to any context or prefer to take rumour as fact.

On this forum in particular and in gaming in general, that seems to be a frequent thing. Yet at the same time there are clearly people that can see the rumour as just that, and fully understand the context
 
Can we not just plug the ps4 into the xbox one's hdmi input port and use the power of both systems AND the cloud to make things like this work better?
 

Laurawesome

Neo Member
Hey all, don't often post on GAF, more of a lurker, but LauraKBuzz here. Feel free to Tweet me to confirm.

So, couple of bits of info here for context.

First up, I generally don't run new rumours (not citing another outlet as source but using my own sources) as news posts on Destructoid unless I have 100% solid confirmation that the news is legit.

Perfect example of this would be the VR On Rails FPS content Rush of Blood for Until Dawn. I had two solid, independent confirmed sources, both with verifiable evidence shown which I could backtrack outside of those sources. Once I was 100% I ran the rumour post on Destructoid, devs denied it, six days later it was announced at Paris Games Week and all info matched my leak from a week before.

When I post a rumour on Destructoid, uusing my own sources, you can be certain the thing discussed is legit.



So, why have I not run any of the info I mentioned on Podquisition as a news post on Destructoid? Because while I trust the sources on the info, I much of it comes from single sources. Many of the pieces of info I trust to be true, but I cannot verify with a separate independant source and backtrack comfortably to the devs.




"No Man's Sky was meant to be at a UK event called Game City as a "hands off demo", but they cancelled their appearance, apparently due to technical issues."

While it has now been confirmed as just a delay, my source on this spoke to me about the "cancellation" prior to it being public knowledge. The source 100% can be confirmed to have knowledge of GameCity dealings. At the time of speaking to them a replacement date had not been internally confirmed. Reason given was technical concerns. While the showing has now been rescheduled, and I should have noticed that info, my statement here on the podcast was based on info I was told prior to the removal of that appearance from the Gamecity Schedule.

Did not make a news story out of this as I only had a single source who knew it was not going to show up as planned, but cannot double source the reason for it not showing that day. If I had planned to do a news post, I would have followed up on updates and spotted the fact it was publicly afterwards referred to as a delay.





"Sony's E3 Press Conference demo was not on a PS4. It was running on PC
Considerable issues getting the game to run on PS4."

While this first piece of info is now several months old, while at E3 itself I was told this by two separate sources. One on the journalism side and one on the dev side, but not from Hello Games. One source told me the info while at the Sony conference. One told me while at the PC show. Both sources asked for me not to report on it at the time, but did tell me the source on their info.

The fact it wasn't running on PS4 wasn't entirely surprising at the time, but an unsubstantiated rumour from one of my sources, not backed up by the other, stated that the reason at the PC show it was announced that PC launch would be the same date as PS4 launch is they were very confident PS4 version would be the hold up.





"Optimisation on PC has been hell"

Came from the same source I spoke to at the PC show at E3, a few months later on. I know their source and can confirm they were in direct contact with HG, but I cannot source a second person to back up this info. Nothing concrete enough for me to cross check actual data points from person to person. Confident in my sources and where there is smoke, there is fire, but I won't run it on Dtoid until I have hard numbers confirmed by more than one source independently.





"Lots of technical problems getting the game to run at the scale they want"

Again multiple sources here, but nothing numbers based enough for me to cross check between sources. One source has stated VERY high PC specs currently required to run the game properly, which would explain how it's getting public appearances but not ready to run at expected levels on standard gaming rigs or PS4. I have not been able to cross check those alleged specs with a second source yet.



So, basically I have heard a lot of things from sources I personally trust, and I'm happy to informally talk about what I've heard on a podcast, but I'm not ready to run as a news story. As pointed out at the beginning of this post I earlier this month ran a single rumour on Dtoid, the news of Rush of Blood, six days before it was formally announced. I know how to do professional sourcing, I know when something sounds legit, and I know when I have solid enough sources that I can run a formal news story, confident in the knowledge it will be proven true in a reasonable amount of time.

Totally get the skepticism, I still have some of my own hence not running a formal story yet. Still, I know how to do news sourcing on unnanounced info. I'm telling you the spoke I saw and the reports of fire. I'm not ready to say the fire is real, but I see smoke and a lot of folk I trust say fire.

Oh, fun bonus - For the Until Dawn Rush of Blood news I broke 6 days early, both sources were UK gamers in the content's target demographic, invited by an outside market research firm to test the software in late August. I saw emails from the market research firm to both, as well as travel documents showing they went to Sony R&D on the days they claimed. I know enough people were invited that they can't be picked out based on that info.

Both described the content, both gave the name Rush of Blood, and one was able to show an image containing the name. The name linked up with an interview that had appeared a few weeks prior.

Both were able to confirm several bits of key info independantly, including what controller options were available, how many times they played the demo, what questions they were ask.

That's the level of confirmation I look for before running a news post :p
 

Laurawesome

Neo Member
Also, to clarify the "what do you actually do in NMS" comments on the show, they are largely playing up to a bit of an on show snarky persona. I understand the idea of explore worlds, label them and move on toward the centre of the universe.

My current concerns are more A) What's to stop you flying straight to the centre? Are you collecting resources on planets to get there? Are those resources you can trade or aquire from other players? What level of interaction do you have beyond observing the world?

Right now a lot of that is unanswered info about the core gameplay loop of No Man's Sky, and info I feel like has been consicuously absent up until this point.
 

Roshin

Member
Not to be dismissive or anything, but game development frequently does include dealing with technical issues. ;D
 

S1kkZ

Member
My current concerns are more A) What's to stop you flying straight to the centre? Are you collecting resources on planets to get there? Are those resources you can trade or aquire from other players? What level of interaction do you have beyond observing the world?

pretty sure most (if not all) of the stuff has been answered in some inteviews (ign first) and the gameinformer(?) issue that had nms on the front.
 

Nzyme32

Member
Hey all, don't often post on GAF, more of a lurker, but LauraKBuzz here. Feel free to Tweet me to confirm.

So, couple of bits of info here for context.

First up, I generally don't run new rumours (not citing another outlet as source but using my own sources) as news posts on Destructoid unless I have 100% solid confirmation that the news is legit.

Perfect example of this would be the VR On Rails FPS content Rush of Blood for Until Dawn. I had two solid, independent confirmed sources, both with verifiable evidence shown which I could backtrack outside of those sources. Once I was 100% I ran the rumour post on Destructoid, devs denied it, six days later it was announced at Paris Games Week and all info matched my leak from a week before.

When I post a rumour on Destructoid, uusing my own sources, you can be certain the thing discussed is legit.



So, why have I not run any of the info I mentioned on Podquisition as a news post on Destructoid? Because while I trust the sources on the info, I much of it comes from single sources. Many of the pieces of info I trust to be true, but I cannot verify with a separate independant source and backtrack comfortably to the devs.




"No Man's Sky was meant to be at a UK event called Game City as a "hands off demo", but they cancelled their appearance, apparently due to technical issues."

While it has now been confirmed as just a delay, my source on this spoke to me about the "cancellation" prior to it being public knowledge. The source 100% can be confirmed to have knowledge of GameCity dealings. At the time of speaking to them a replacement date had not been internally confirmed. Reason given was technical concerns. While the showing has now been rescheduled, and I should have noticed that info, my statement here on the podcast was based on info I was told prior to the removal of that appearance from the Gamecity Schedule.

Did not make a news story out of this as I only had a single source who knew it was not going to show up as planned, but cannot double source the reason for it not showing that day. If I had planned to do a news post, I would have followed up on updates and spotted the fact it was publicly afterwards referred to as a delay.





"Sony's E3 Press Conference demo was not on a PS4. It was running on PC
Considerable issues getting the game to run on PS4."

While this first piece of info is now several months old, while at E3 itself I was told this by two separate sources. One on the journalism side and one on the dev side, but not from Hello Games. One source told me the info while at the Sony conference. One told me while at the PC show. Both sources asked for me not to report on it at the time, but did tell me the source on their info.

The fact it wasn't running on PS4 wasn't entirely surprising at the time, but an unsubstantiated rumour from one of my sources, not backed up by the other, stated that the reason at the PC show it was announced that PC launch would be the same date as PS4 launch is they were very confident PS4 version would be the hold up.





"Optimisation on PC has been hell"

Came from the same source I spoke to at the PC show at E3, a few months later on. I know their source and can confirm they were in direct contact with HG, but I cannot source a second person to back up this info. Nothing concrete enough for me to cross check actual data points from person to person. Confident in my sources and where there is smoke, there is fire, but I won't run it on Dtoid until I have hard numbers confirmed by more than one source independently.





"Lots of technical problems getting the game to run at the scale they want"

Again multiple sources here, but nothing numbers based enough for me to cross check between sources. One source has stated VERY high PC specs currently required to run the game properly, which would explain how it's getting public appearances but not ready to run at expected levels on standard gaming rigs or PS4. I have not been able to cross check those alleged specs with a second source yet.



So, basically I have heard a lot of things from sources I personally trust, and I'm happy to informally talk about what I've heard on a podcast, but I'm not ready to run as a news story. As pointed out at the beginning of this post I earlier this month ran a single rumour on Dtoid, the news of Rush of Blood, six days before it was formally announced. I know how to do professional sourcing, I know when something sounds legit, and I know when I have solid enough sources that I can run a formal news story, confident in the knowledge it will be proven true in a reasonable amount of time.

Totally get the skepticism, I still have some of my own hence not running a formal story yet. Still, I know how to do news sourcing on unnanounced info. I'm telling you the spoke I saw and the reports of fire. I'm not ready to say the fire is real, but I see smoke and a lot of folk I trust say fire.

Oh, fun bonus - For the Until Dawn Rush of Blood news I broke 6 days early, both sources were UK gamers in the content's target demographic, invited by an outside market research firm to test the software in late August. I saw emails from the market research firm to both, as well as travel documents showing they went to Sony R&D on the days they claimed. I know enough people were invited that they can't be picked out based on that info.

Both described the content, both gave the name Rush of Blood, and one was able to show an image containing the name. The name linked up with an interview that had appeared a few weeks prior.

Both were able to confirm several bits of key info independantly, including what controller options were available, how many times they played the demo, what questions they were ask.

That's the level of confirmation I look for before running a news post :p

Thanks for the additional info and clarification. Hope this thread hasn't caused you any much hassle.
 
Also, to clarify the "what do you actually do in NMS" comments on the show, they are largely playing up to a bit of an on show snarky persona. I understand the idea of explore worlds, label them and move on toward the centre of the universe.

My current concerns are more A) What's to stop you flying straight to the centre? Are you collecting resources on planets to get there? Are those resources you can trade or aquire from other players? What level of interaction do you have beyond observing the world?

Right now a lot of that is unanswered info about the core gameplay loop of No Man's Sky, and info I feel like has been consicuously absent up until this point.

As others have said "a game in development is in development" tech issues are a giving.
 

Seiniyta

Member
pretty sure most of the stuff has been answered in some inteviews (ign first) and the gameinformer(?) issue that had nms on the front.

Yeah, from what I've gathered, it's gated by needing resources to build better eqiupment for your stuff which allows you to travel deeper into the galaxy. The game also has Minecraft like crafting where they won't tell what the recipees of stuff is.

I think by now what you do in the game is pretty clear actually. It's just that the info is scattered all over the place.
 

RoadHazard

Gold Member
Comes with the territory on such an ambitious title. Especially for just 4 people.

This little nugget och misinformation just won't die, will it? They're not just 4 people. The "core group" that started up the development was, but now they're 10+ people working on it. Still a very small team for such an ambitious game, of curse.
 

Laurawesome

Neo Member
If that info is out there that's cool. I'd not seen anything about equipment gating or crafting mentioned. If that info is out there and I have missed it, that's more a failure of unified messaging than the game itself.
 

xrnzaaas

Member
Yeah 4 people working on a game of that size... it would be surprising if they didn't have any problems. Looks like they're going to scale back on their project, hire additional people or beg Sony to help out.
 

bryanee

Member
Yeah 4 people working on a game of that size... it would be surprising if they didn't have any problems. Looks like they're going to scale back on their project, hire additional people or beg Sony to help out.

They have more than four people now.
 

DOWN

Banned
Yeah 4 people working on a game of that size... it would be surprising if they didn't have any problems. Looks like they're going to scale back on their project, hire additional people or beg Sony to help out.
SONY is helping out. Well over 4 people supporting now.
 

Danlord

Member

Well as I said on Twitter, thanks for at least elaborating on how it came to be. It makes sense if you've not done a formal article doubling down on the rumour and the nature of discussion forums such as GAF being informal can bring up such discussions in a widely public setting.

My current concerns are more A) What's to stop you flying straight to the centre? Are you collecting resources on planets to get there? Are those resources you can trade or acquire from other players? What level of interaction do you have beyond observing the world?
As for actual No Man's Sky gameplay, nothing is stopping you from flying straight to the centre other than the huge distance required to do so. The "goal" is to get to the center of the galaxy and to do so crossing vast distances of space requires you to mine resources, discover planets and creatures which is information is sold for "credits" to get better ships with larger hyper-drive capabilities to help jump further distances until eventually you can reach the center.

Regarding the resource mining, there is a crafting mechanic that hasn't been shown but is confirmed and so far, at least we know it's to do with upgrading your multi-tool adding more capability although it's unknown if this is solely for that mechanic, which I doubt. (Creating their own fictional periodic table just to upgrade your multi-tool seems overkill, I personally feel there's more crafting that can be done that he's not said).
For some, the core exploration of the game is enough for some people. For others, there's ship combat between 2 factions throughout the galaxy. Sean Murray has been tight-lipped about other gameplay elements and I hope for those on the fence that he elaborates more.


The Game Informer coverage of No Man's Sky had a lot of detail, moreso than the recent IGN First so if you want to brush up on some known stuff, the bulk of the known information is within Game Informer so that's your best bet.
 
Hey all, don't often post on GAF, more of a lurker, but LauraKBuzz here. Feel free to Tweet me to confirm.

So, couple of bits of info here for context.


From reading this it appears to me as though we can put all the rumors under one banner "it only runs on a high-end PC".

They would have known early on CPU usage, they had a demo universe when they announced the game, I don't think Sean Murray would put himself through a partnership with the PS4 if it was out of its CPU league.
 
Comes with the territory on such an ambitious title. Especially for just 4 people.

I mean, it's only 4 people working on this game. It's not surprising that they have and will continue to hit issues. No rush. Get the game where it needs to be and then release. Hopefully Sony is giving them the time and resources to make this game something worth buying a system for.

I mean, I think they started out at 4 people, but the team size grew considerably after development on NMS fully kicked into gear. Although whether those are contractors or permanent staff I don't know, as the website seems to only list the four founders as current staff.
 
They would have known early on CPU usage, they had a demo universe when they announced the game, I don't think Sean Murray would put himself through a partnership with the PS4 if it was out of its CPU league.

I think that depends on what Sean believed he'd be able to do after seeing the money Sony was willing to put in.
 

Head.spawn

Junior Member
I don't know, we have a few examples of where games even after long delays were still pretty terrible.

It's really only relevant if you have Miyamoto on your dev team, and he certainly isn't working on this game and no disrespect to Sean, but someone would have to be out of their mind to put them in the same breath based on released titles.
 

phanphare

Banned
I had no idea that they planned for 2015. Interdasting.

But even then, I still think a game in dev is a game in dev. If this was like a month before launch and we heard this, I would be skeptical... but they have quite a lot of time.

oh yeah for sure, the OP merely wanted to provide context for the delay

especially with those surprise release rumors that were going around

they've got time, I'm optimistic about the game
 

Future

Member
Well out of all the games out there, this is the one I'd expect to hit some snags in development. You know, with that whole infinite unique world thing going on
 

Orbis

Member
None of this, if at all true, seems to be particularly concerning given that the game is still some way from release.
 

SpotAnime

Member
Based on what I'm reading, Sony would benefit from some cloud computing architecture like Microsoft has. The computations required to scale the universe sounds like that's the big draw on system resources and could be offloaded to free them up.
 

oneils

Member
This all sounds like rumors, to be honest.

I think that the flood wiped out any chance of a 2015 release for "No Man's Sky" and yet the team was still pushing for that release window anyway.

Now, with Sony's backing, Hello Games has the opportunity to add-in all those features for release day that would have been DLC/update content much later on. That and polish the shit out of the game code, so that it runs like hot butter on PS4 and PC.

I'm all for the delay.

1). It's only 7 months.

2). Miyamoto said it best:

C8h1eGr.png

I'm pretty sure George Washington said this. Dude, at least get it right.
 
If that info is out there that's cool. I'd not seen anything about equipment gating or crafting mentioned. If that info is out there and I have missed it, that's more a failure of unified messaging than the game itself.

Info is definitely scattered.

There are two things preventing you from going straight to the center in one go:
You use fuel to travel across galaxies, and, to get fuel, you need to collect and sell resources. There are resources that are harder to find and are worth more, so exploring makes traveling quicker.
The other is that the planets become increasingly dangerous, so, to be able to explore planets closer to the center, you will have to upgrade your suit, your ship and your gun, or else you might die from radiation, or dangerous creatures or anything like that. I think they even mentioned that some resources can only be gathered with an upgraded gun.

I hope I haven't misremembered this info.

--
Regarding development, I hope Sony put some people to help them technically. Not that I have much hope, considering they haven't even bothered helping From with frame pacing in Bloodborne, but everybody would win with that.
 

RedSwirl

Junior Member
Also, to clarify the "what do you actually do in NMS" comments on the show, they are largely playing up to a bit of an on show snarky persona. I understand the idea of explore worlds, label them and move on toward the centre of the universe.

My current concerns are more A) What's to stop you flying straight to the centre? Are you collecting resources on planets to get there? Are those resources you can trade or aquire from other players? What level of interaction do you have beyond observing the world?

Right now a lot of that is unanswered info about the core gameplay loop of No Man's Sky, and info I feel like has been consicuously absent up until this point.

You can only travel so far in a single hyperspace jump depending on what kind of ship you have. The demos shown thus far have been on debug code where they could go anywhere, but I think those lines on the star map indicated how far the ship would normally be able to jump -- basically the next few adjacent star systems. You need fuel for hyperspace jumps, fuel costs money. Hello Games suggested that fuel is quite expensive, so when you warp into a system you'll be stuck there for a while -- however long it takes you to make enough money to buy enough fuel for another hyperspace jump.

You can get money in several ways. You can sell the information you gather on planets (undiscovered species, planets themselves, etc.). You can kill other space ships and steal whatever they drop. You can mine rocks. You can also buy and sell random loot. It seems like most or all systems will have trading stations where all this happens. Loot will be priced differently in different systems, so in doing this you'd be encouraged to buy loot in one system where it's low-priced, and sell in a system where that same loot is more expensive to make a profit. However you make money, you'll eventually be able to buy better ships and gear, which you'll need in order to survive the more dangerous planets near the center.
 
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