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[Camjo-Z]

It depends on the game, really. I'm less likely to buy/play games that I percieve are mainly about the fanservice rather than the gameplay, like Senran Kagura and other such anime games starring young girls with varying amounts of clothing, but I won't totally avoid a game just because it includes some.

 

[Suzushiiro]

I feel that when people speak out against this kind of thing, it's like telling these girls that they're wrong for pursuing this particular dream -- that they put their eggs in the wrong basket and should reconsider all their life choices.

In short... I actually feel that public disgust for things like this is, in its own way, marginalizing the hopes and dreams of these girls. It's telling them, "There is only one way a girl should conduct herself, and this is not it." And that's not something you should ever tell a kid -- especially when their dreams are giving them something to be passionate about.

To me, it's kind of like when people made fun of me in high school for playing video games too much.

I just think it's important to keep an open mind, and to understand that while Western culture teaches us that outfits like this are sexual and "wrong," Eastern culture embraces them not for objectification, but for empowerment. It's "girly," sure... but it's something that a lot of girls in Japan really look up to and aspire to emulate, and I genuinely don't think that's wrong. Anything that can bring so many girls so much joy and camaraderie isn't something I can rightfully condemn.

...So yeah, I doubt this will change anyone's mind, but I felt it was something worth sharing, to give a different perspective on things -- and maybe help you understand where I'm coming from a little, if nothing else.

Sorry for the long response!

-Tom

A++, especially the bolded part, which is one of the more horseshoe theory-ish things I've seen come out of certain branches of feminism/progressivism/whatever else you want to call it. It basically comes from a sort of full-circle overreaction to the "old" ways of thinking where male sexuality is normal and natural and "boys being boys" while female sexuality is filthy and sinful- now male sexuality is inherently gross and creepy and whatever else while female sexuality is wonderful and beautiful and empowering. So women expressing their sexuality in ways that they deem to be to the benefit of women is wonderful and anyone who disagrees is slut-shaming but women expressing their sexuality in ways that they deem to be more to the benefit of men (such as the pop idol culture you're talking about, though the more obvious examples are things like sex work) is sinful and any woman who willingly participates in/encourages it has been brainwashed by the patriarchy. Both schools of thought restrict womens' choice via shaming those who refuse to conform, only in one case it's mostly men setting the rules while in the other case it's mostly women.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

I think we're just a little prudish here in the Western world -- we see skin and we immediately say SEX. But in Japan, showing a little skin is pretty much a way of life, and is not considered a sexual thing. It's we who make a big deal out of it, and who MAKE it sexual.

-Tom

To be fair, I think Japan is a bit prudish as well if the scandals over there consist of people having sex and nothing else.

Not that I don't agree with what you've been saying of course.

 

[wyrdwad]

To be fair, I think Japan is a bit prudish as well if the scandals over there consist of people having sex and nothing else.

Yeah, "prudish" probably wasn't the right word. But you get what I was going for!

Sexuality in Japanese culture would certainly make for an interesting case study, though. I mean, this is a country where hardcore porn magazines are readily available at 7-Elevens and sometimes even in vending machines, and where openly reading porn manga on public transportation is not at all uncommon -- yet, the actual act of sex is something VERY private, almost never discussed in the open (unless you're a punk junior high kid, anyway -- and let me tell you, my kids tried using some very interesting English on me during my time in Shichigahama! No clue where they learned it, but man, they knew some choice words, to be sure).

-Tom

 

[Dice//]

I think you're entirely disregarding the fact that cultural aspects of what Tom was talking about. Applying a western lens to judge eastern culture wiffs of imperialism.

Maybe, but I don't think Japan is particularly well known for it's progressive attitudes either.

I didn't find Rise's case was very problematic (and P4's treatment of it was pretty all for exploring the good and bad of pop-life), that's not to say it shouldn't be unexamined because "kids have dreams". EDIT: That said, pop music does a good job being sexualized with both genders.

 

[diaspora]

Depends on the context of the game, no? Bayonetta and Dante are largely fine while Miranda Lawson's ass appearing in every scene with her in ME2 and 3 was ridiculously annoying.

 

[Yopis]

It's not yours to control, though. That's like someone saying they don't want 'porn' to pollute books, ignoring the fact that plenty of people read books in large part to get turned on [50 Shades, romance novels, etc] or film [sex scenes in films] or even tv shows [many, like How to Get Away with Murder, have at least 2 sex scenes per hour nowadays].

It's not 'pollution', it's part of the medium, it's part of human nature. And those hit books, hit shows, and hit films do not care if you have an issue with them.

Don't get me wrong - I desperately wish that drpgs were still 'western' -- I prefer medieval Wizardry to anime, I prefer anything over teen melodrama. I'd rather be equipping Mythril Plate instead of School Jacket. I'd rather be killing Beholders than listening to talking cats. But I also recognize that at least I'm getting the games I want to play, and had Japan not picked up and re-popularized drpgs I probably would have far fewer to play. I'm not calling for the removal of high school from all rpgs, even though I think the world would be a better place without them.

But that doesn't mean there is anything inherently wrong with getting, or wanting to get, turned on. And just as you say -- it's the medium you 'consume'. Do you not get that some people want to be turned on by the medium they 'consume'? That they might find that preferable to kicking it over to the internet? That they too, know "where to find it", and for them that means an interactive medium like gaming?

It's not 'pollution'. It's the recognition that gaming is an artistic medium, and as with any medium that allows humans to 'converse' with one another through the creative process, we're going to get a bit of everything, and that includes scantily clad buxom lasses, sweaty muscular adonis', and everything in between and over to the side. Plus drama, intrigue, betrayal, murder, adultery, demons, torture and everything else that our sick twisted minds can shove into the stories we tell each other.

Worrying about what turns others on is a waste of time. Arguing that something should be sterilized because it doesn't happen to hit your kink button in the right place is even worse -- it's ridiculously egotistical to assume everything out there should be made not to offend you, let alone tailor made to your liking.

The future is here: Press X to porn.

Great post.

 

[Suzushiiro]

Wanting to be a pop star is a "warped ideal" now? We're not talking about people aspiring to join ISIS or something here. Wanting to be an idol because they found what they saw on TV cute shouldn't be enough to give a stern lecture to on the danger of gender norms in a modern progressive society. It's just kids being kids, and I certainly wouldn't go up to them and crush their dreams based on my own viewpoints. It's a dick move and exactly what people mean when they talk about PC culture going out of control.

Pretty much- "political correctness" is fundamentally the idea that certain words, ideas, and practices should be made taboo in mainstream culture/discourse due to them being offensive/harmful to certain groups of people, which is completely fine when talking about things that the vast majority of members those groups agree is offensive/harmful. It goes off the rails when it starts creeping into things that a vocal minority considers to be problematic but the vast majority of the supposedly harmed group isn't bothered by or even enjoys, such as the subject at hand.

I think you're entirely disregarding the fact that cultural aspects of what Tom was talking about. Applying a western lens to judge eastern culture wiffs of imperialism.

Yeah, much like how America's standards of how race should be treated is different from most other places because of its unusually high racial diversity, America's standards of how sexuality should be treated is different from many other places because of the fact that it was founded by people who followed some of the more conservative schools of thought of the 1500s-1700s. It's completely fair game to have discussions of the pros and cons of differing cultures' views of this stuff, but straight-up declaring that your culture's point of view is the objectively correct one and anyone who fails to agree is a bad person is generally* pretty shitty.

*asterisk here because obviously when you get into extreme cases where said other culture's differing standards results in actual physical harm happening to people, ie sentencing women to death for premarital sex or whatever else, that's fair game to shit on all you like because fuck that noise.

 

[Ralemont]

The only time it annoys me is when it seems to run counter to who the character is.

Morrigan wearing her sultry witch robes in Origins: good. To her sex appeal is a form of power.

Samara not zipping up her Justicar armor: bad. Serves no practical purpose and her character is uninterested in sex appeal.

 

[DamonForever]

I haven't read the whole thread, but in general I don't care. It will depend on the game. If the game isn't trying to sell a story, I'll care less. If a game IS however, it can ruin the whole thing,

An example would be Resonance of Fate. Great and unique gameplay that was hard. I wanted story rewards from completing missions, instead I got horrendous fanservice that did nothing for the plot. And it just kept going on and on. So I dropped it. It was hard, but I was pushing through difficulty-wise. In the end I didn't drop it because of how difficult it was, but because the crap fanservice destroyed my desire to conitnue on.

 

[kswiston]

Hmm, must have been Japan only then. IIRC, Shadow Dragon was a mega bomb everywhere else.

Shadow Dragon outsold Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn in the US as well. The GC/Wii games were between 160k-190k IIRC, while Shadow Dragon topped out around 250k I believe. This is from memory, but a Gaffer gave us NPD numbers on the series a few years ago.

It is possible that Shadow Dragon relied more heavily on fire sales than the other two though. Not sure.

 

[theprodigy]

Shadow Dragon outsold Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn in the US as well. The GC/Wii games were between 160k-190k IIRC, while Shadow Dragon topped out around 250k I believe. This is from memory, but a Gaffer gave us NPD numbers on the series a few years ago.

It is possible that Shadow Dragon relied more heavily on fire sales than the other two though. Not sure.

edit: screw it I can't refind the source, the commonly known PoR number is like 225k or something though

 

[Dice//]

I haven't read the whole thread, but in general I don't care. It will depend on the game. If the game isn't trying to sell a story, I'll care less. If a game IS however, it can ruin the whole thing,

An example would be Resonance of Fate. Great and unique gameplay that was hard. I wanted story rewards from completing missions, instead I got horrendous fanservice that did nothing for the plot. And it just kept going on and on. So I dropped it. It was hard, but I was pushing through difficulty-wise. In the end I didn't drop it because of how difficult it was, but because the crap fanservice destroyed my desire to conitnue on.

Huh?? What aspect? There's one ridiculous chick, treated as such, that was silly for fan service. Leanne had a ridiculously over-priced skirt that let you see her panties (optional purchase)... I didn't think it was the WORST OFFENDER of fan-service, especially for a person confessing the topic doesn't matter much to them.

If anything, I thought their approach to "lingerie outfits" was brilliant and worked for both genders:

#avatarquote

 

[ref]

Absolutely.

MGS4 is a good example of wayyyyyyy too much fanservice.

 

[RM8]

Shadow Dragon outsold Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn in the US as well. The GC/Wii games were between 160k-190k IIRC, while Shadow Dragon topped out around 250k I believe. This is from memory, but a Gaffer gave us NPD numbers on the series a few years ago.

It is possible that Shadow Dragon relied more heavily on fire sales than the other two though. Not sure.

Fire Emblem is one of the saddest things in gaming, for me Being a veteran fan, and seeing one of my absolute favorite series change so drastically in tone. I'm glad FE is alive, but... eh. This truly harms a game for me.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

Shadow Dragon outsold Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn in the US as well. The GC/Wii games were between 160k-190k IIRC, while Shadow Dragon topped out around 250k I believe. This is from memory, but a Gaffer gave us NPD numbers on the series a few years ago.

It is possible that Shadow Dragon relied more heavily on fire sales than the other two though. Not sure.

Alright then, completely disregard my point in that case.

 

[Boss Doggie]

yeah, the complete irony (or hypocrisy?) of saying what "women should wear" ultimately turns them into the same creatures they are fighting against

And yeah people don't know much about idol stuff. It's actually "cleaner" than most Western groups by virtue that they are so keen about idol purity.

I haven't read the whole thread, but in general I don't care. It will depend on the game. If the game isn't trying to sell a story, I'll care less. If a game IS however, it can ruin the whole thing,

An example would be Resonance of Fate. Great and unique gameplay that was hard. I wanted story rewards from completing missions, instead I got horrendous fanservice that did nothing for the plot. And it just kept going on and on. So I dropped it. It was hard, but I was pushing through difficulty-wise. In the end I didn't drop it because of how difficult it was, but because the crap fanservice destroyed my desire to conitnue on.

but the only fanservice it had was the specific costume for leanne

leanne herself thinks the outfit is silly

 

[kswiston]

edit: screw it I can't refind the source, the commonly known PoR number is like 225k or something though

Ya, I can't find the post I am thinking of either. I thought it Anihawk who shared the data 3-4 years ago, but I might be thinking about the Suikoden series.

I wish NPD was more like Media Create/Famitsu.

 

[KirbYuuYuu]

Fire Emblem Fates is such a weird position for me. I have never felt so at odds at a game for a variety of reasons, from doubling down on aspects I was not expecting, to even having this 2 version thing going on.

There's so many odd choices that my heart is in my throat for it. Like no matter what, doing anything to it may as well be a loss. Like I fear IS just got too ballsy, and they're hoping to pay off with it. I haven't really kept an eye on JPN sales for a while beyond knowing it outdid Awakening's launch.

A bit off of that, but one fanservice argument sort of reminds me of some of the resentment against cinematics and story in games.

 

[HK-47]

yeah, the complete irony (or hypocrisy?) of saying what "women should wear" ultimately turns them into the same creatures they are fighting against

And yeah people don't know much about idol stuff. It's actually "cleaner" than most Western groups by virtue that they are so keen about idol purity.



but the only fanservice it had was the specific costume for leanne

leanne herself thinks the outfit is silly

Thats part of the reason I hate idol culture. Also just a different kind of misogyny.

 

[kswiston]

I can't not get Fire Emblem Fates... I have beaten the last 8 games (plus the fourth one), and it's one of the very few rpg series where I will replay games. I'm giving Intelligent Systems a shot, even if I am not a huge fan of the game coming in two versions, and have heard that VITA style character touching factors into this in some way (hopefully I can skip that and still get character support levels).

 

[Dice//]

Thats part of the reason I hate idol culture. Also just a different kind of misogyny.

I'm sort of confused, what do you mean? (I wasn't sure with what you were quoting either -- I'm super tired though)

I can't not get Fire Emblem Fates... I have beaten the last 8 games (plus the fourth one), and it's one of the very few rpg series where I will replay games. I'm giving Intelligence Systems a shot, even if I am not a huge fan of the game coming in two versions, and have heard that VITA style character touching factors into this in some way (hopefully I can skip that and still get character support levels).

I think my issue with Fates isn't so much it's "bad" just...super tacky imo. :/

 

[cosmicblizzard]

Thats part of the reason I hate idol culture. Also just a different kind of misogyny.

Perfectly valid, but did you read Tom's post a page back (on 50 PPP)? Not to change anyone's mind, just wondering as I'm no proponent of idol culture either, but that did make me look at it a bit more positively.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

I can't not get Fire Emblem Fates... I have beaten the last 8 games (plus the fourth one), and it's one of the very few rpg series where I will replay games. I'm giving Intelligence Systems a shot, even if I am not a huge fan of the game coming in two versions, and have heard that VITA style character touching factors into this in some way (hopefully I can skip that and still get character support levels).

This is still Nintendo and IS we're talking about, so I can't imagine it's something too alienating and obtrusive. The fact it's a minor skinship thing and not full on Vita should definitely make it easier to swallow, even if it is relatively important for support levels (I don't actually know if it is).

 

[KirbYuuYuu]

This is still Nintendo and IS we're talking about, so I can't imagine it's something too alienating and obtrusive. The fact it's a minor skinship thing and not full on Vita should definitely make it easier to swallow, even if it is relatively important for support levels (I don't actually know if it is).

I don't think it was.

 

[Boss Doggie]

Thats part of the reason I hate idol culture. Also just a different kind of misogyny.

While I'm not too fond of idol culture I feel like that's more of a business thing than anything else, along the lines of "you wouldn't talk shit about your company you're working for". And generally from what I heard it's still more of a fun fulfillment with the shit stuff being on the extreme side.

 

[SeanTSC]

I'm sick of fanservice. It's only there to give horny teenagers something to look at, which completely breaks my immersion. I'm also worried because I feel it has become more and more mainstream in Japanese media. You can hardly find anime without some kind of panty shot in it anymore. Anime fans like me basically have no choice but to put up with it these days.

It's a shame it has also been creeping into games. Games already have a long history of sexualized characters, but now they get the special brand of modern Japanese fanservice on top of that. Fire Emblem and Persona got more and more anime-stylized in recent entries, but why did they have to adopt the fanservice too? Ugh.

Well, at least Persona 5 looks normal. Dancing All Night and Illusory FE are clearly pandering though.

Reposting one of my first posts in the thread, because I think this line of thought is absurd. T&A and sex and smut isn't just for "horny teenagers" and "basement dwelling Otakus", etc. Sex sells to both genders and everyone from teenagers to grandmothers:

Since when is smut childish and since when does "being an adult" mean you stop liking sexual things? That's just baffling to me.

My 65 year old mother openly listens to straight up extremely descriptive Romance Porn audiobooks on her iPad Air. My 37 year old girlfriend openly reads Doujinshi Erotica and loves watching Informative Murder Porn. And my 32 year old self loves all things fanservicey and smutty with games and anime. Boobs are awesome.

 

[HK-47]

I'm sort of confused, what do you mean? (I wasn't sure with what you were quoting either -- I'm super tired though)



I think my issue with Fates isn't so much it's "bad" just...super tacky imo. :/

I was referring to purity in idol group members.

 

[RM8]

Reposting one of my first posts in the thread, because I think this line of thought is absurd. T&A and sex and smut isn't just for "horny teenagers" and "basement dwelling Otakus", etc. Sex sells to both genders and everyone from teenagers to grandmothers:

Since when is smut childish and since when does "being an adult" mean you stop liking sexual things? That's just baffling to me.

My 65 year old mother openly listens to straight up extremely descriptive Romance Porn audiobooks on her iPad Air. My 37 year old girlfriend openly reads Doujinshi Erotica and loves watching Informative Murder Porn. And my 32 year old self loves all things fanservicey and smutty with games and anime. Boobs are awesome.

I personally don't have any issues with other people enjoying it, I only hate when it infects stuff I like. I'd never whine that DOA or Senran Kagura are fanservice-y, but stuff I have been following for ages? Yeah... nope.

 

[VanillaCakeIsBurning]

This is still Nintendo and IS we're talking about, so I can't imagine it's something too alienating and obtrusive. The fact it's a minor skinship thing and not full on Vita should definitely make it easier to swallow, even if it is relatively important for support levels (I don't actually know if it is).

Clicking on a guy's face and having him say "I will always be by your side" is pretty bad. That's pretty much sex isn't it?

 

[RM8]

Clicking on a guy's face and having him say "I will always be by your side" is pretty bad. That's pretty much sex isn't it?

Is that truly as bad as it gets? I mean, outside of the swimwear stuff.

 

[demidar]

Clicking on a guy's face and having him say "I will always be by your side" is pretty bad. That's pretty much sex isn't it?

That's how babies are made, yes.

 

[KirbYuuYuu]

I personally don't have any issues with other people enjoying it, I only hate when it infects stuff I like. I'd never whine that DOA or Senran Kagura are fanservice-y, but stuff I have been following for ages? Yeah... nope.

I think I might comment on this, as I've grasped what is being said.

I mean... I ultimately get it, in where aspects that people don't like get into games that people like. I mean though, this pertains to many things. Fanservice, like you put it, or even cinematics or story in a game where you do not feel where it belongs. I think we have all been there.

I mean in general, I've grown to be rather... lenient, because as much as I like games, they're ultimately a small part of my life, and as such, I choose to move on as I see fit. Whether it's purchasing something or not. I think Valkyria Chronicles is definitely an example, where for example, went to PSP. And then you have the extensive Selveria exposure and yeah. I mean, I totally get that.

I think though, ultimately, fanservice to me, may as well be the small bits that either I can avoid, or it's not there very much, given that I feel it has the smaller impact on whether a game is good based on its entire merits.

 

[Henkka]

Fan service should ideally have some meaning in the story or be somehow humorous and witty. Big Boss staring at Eva's boobs is a good example. It's partly hidden, makes sense for the characters and is pretty funny.

I'm fine with unlockable easter eggs too, like Meryl in her underwear in MGS1.

Quiet, on the other hand, is just the worst. There's just no point to it. It's excessive, doesn't make sense for the character, isn't funny or interesting in any way.

 

[SeanTSC]

I personally don't have any issues with other people enjoying it, I only hate when it infects stuff I like. I'd never whine that DOA or Senran Kagura are fanservice-y, but stuff I have been following for ages? Yeah... nope.

That's completely fair to hate it in stuff you like if you're uncomfortable with sexuality, but sex and smut is in every form of media, especially TV and movies - even the best of them. I think it's great that it's in games too. Yeah, it sucks when it's completely out of place and ruins a moment no matter what you're watching or playing, but I don't think innocuous random bits of it here and there hurts anyone.

It's not an "infection", it's part of life. Games aren't some "purer" form of media that it should be kept out of. It's like complaining that something like Game of Thrones has T&A. Some boobs and butts here and there doesn't make a game a lesser piece of work because of it. This isn't a knock against you specifically, but I think it's weird that so many American adults readily embrace it or mindlessly give it a pass in many of shows and movies that they watch and then kinda freak out when it's in a video game.

 

[Shaanyboi]

Well, that was sort of my point: what makes these ideals "warped" other than our Western perception of them? I don't see them being inherently sexist, since boy idols are very much a thing as well, and I don't really see there being any sort of societal harm whatsoever in people wearing outfits that they think are cute and singing songs that they enjoy. In general, the idol world in Japan seems far more open and less likely to corrupt or ruin someone's life than the performance world of North America, as idols aren't even particularly controversial in Japan -- they're just a part of life, and people almost universally love them over there. There's no TMZ running around sniffing for scandals every other second, and no real call for teen idols to start getting daring and pulling a Wrecking Ball in order to capture the media's waning attention (rather, the media's attention will just naturally wane and there's pretty much not a damned thing anyone can do to stop it -- which is a whole other story, but still preferable to the "shock culture" that pervades here in the West IMHO).

There are sex scandals, but there are always sex scandals in show business -- and the sex scandals in the idol world are literally that PEOPLE ARE HAVING SEX. As opposed to cheating, rape, and other much more severe scandals that seem to headline entertainment news here in the U.S.

The idol world is shockingly innocent compared to the music scene anywhere else in the world. The most scandalous thing about it is probably the outfits, and honestly, I don't see what the big deal is there. People should be allowed to wear what they want, and I've never heard of a Japanese pop idol who wasn't ALL ABOUT wearing his/her outfit, no matter how skimpy or outlandish it may have been.

I think we're just a little prudish here in the Western world -- we see skin and we immediately say SEX. But in Japan, showing a little skin is pretty much a way of life, and is not considered a sexual thing. (Remember, this is the land of public baths and hot springs -- which are, BTW, an experience I'd urge everyone to have at some point in their lives, because Japanese hot springs feel *AMAZING*.) It's we who make a big deal out of it, and who MAKE it sexual.

-Tom

This makes Idol culture gross enough on its own, and not because of the outfits but rather the attitude towards the entertainers themselves. It's the incredibly creepy "ownership" some fans seem to think they have over people they don't even know that is poisonous. A pop star shaving her head in "shame" for having a boyfriend is disgusting. The message it sends is that apparently it's totally fine for these girls to display their sexuality to satiate the desires of their fanbase, utilizing it purely for others' own entertainment. But embracing it for themselves? That's a no-no.

You say that you think about the girls in your old class and not wanting to stamp on their dream... I'd say it's a pretty fucked up dream when you consider the greater context. Yes, they should be able to wear whatever they want, do what they want, etc. But that's not what they're allowed to do. Instead their sexual identity is apparently owned by their fans.


Bringing this back around to videogames, I see the same problem. I don't take issue with a character like Bayonetta - a character that's unapologetically boisterous about her sexuality. In fact I find her wholly entertaining. Obviously, Bayonetta isn't real - she doesn't make her own choices. She's the result of multiple creative people all piecing together the performance we see in-game. But atleast the way she's presented visually lines up with her personality. The same would go for a character like Eva in MGS3 - an obvious throwback the Bond-girl archetypes of the 007 series, all the while, she manipulates Snake into getting close to her.

The stuff I do take issue with is when the fan-service comes out of nowhere. It's irrelevant to the character, the tone, the story... The creepy sexualization of characters that conflicts with the characters themselves. Why in Lost Planet, on a hellish ice world, does the only female character have her jacket zipped down to expose her cleavage? Why is the shy young girl given an enormous chest and a short skirt? Why is Miranda's ass CONSTANTLY put in the foreground of a shot? Or a character in an RPG wearing a bikini while those around her wear suits of armor? Hell, Tales of Vesperia (while being a game I love) introduces June in a full suit of plate armor, only for her to discard it for little more coverage than a bikini. They even have a line of dialogue about it, claiming it's "for movement" which the plate armor didn't allow for... Hell, even if she'd just said "it's so I can move more, and besides, I think I look damn good in it," I'd be less put-off by how lame and obvious it was.

Don't even get me fucking started on Quiet in MGSV. Kojima had the fucking gall to try and claim that the reasoning for Quiet's design was totally noble and narratively justified. Instead, the camera creepily lingers and pans around on her chest and ass as she holds consistently suggestive poses. Her outfit, while supposedly being justified by the narrative, instead wholly contradicts it based on the logic for previous characters who suffer the same "affliction" she does. Even in scenes of violence or torture, Quiet having a bag over her head doesn't stop the camera from being sure to have her exposed cleavage prominently displayed in the frame.

Hell, even the Ghost in the Shell series, Motoko is a tough, calculating leader, though she doesn't ever play herself as flirty or hypersexual or anything... while also wearing no pants. And even when she does, even in the middle of a tense action scene where everything is super serious, the still shove in a gratuitous close up of her ass. It's ridiculous and takes you out of the whole thing.

Resident Evil Revelations 2's dumb alternate costumes... Or how the latest Fatal Frame had a bikini costume which totally makes sense in the context of the story, displaying the uncomfortable and tragic exploitation of one character, only to later go "HEY, NOW YOU CAN PLAY IN HER BIKINI! OH AND DON'T WORRY, EVEN THOUGH IT DOESN'T APPEAR IN THE STORY, HERE'S SOME LINGERIE FOR YOUR OTHER CHARACTER. BECAUSE REASONS!" Yeahhhh fuck that shit.

 

[KirbYuuYuu]

This makes Idol culture gross enough on its own, and not because of the outfits but rather the attitude towards the entertainers themselves. It's the incredibly creepy "ownership" some fans seem to think they have over people they don't even know that is poisonous. A pop star shaving her head in "shame" for having a boyfriend is disgusting. The message it sends is that apparently it's totally fine for these girls to display their sexuality to satiate the desires of their fanbase, utilizing it purely for others' own entertainment. But embracing it for themselves? That's a no-no.

You say that you think about the girls in your old class and not wanting to stamp on their dream... I'd say it's a pretty fucked up dream when you consider the greater context. Yes, they should be able to wear whatever they want, do what they want, etc. But that's not what they're allowed to do. Instead their sexual identity is apparently owned by their fans.

I don't think this is exclusive to idol culture, as mentioned earlier in the thread.

 

[Phocks]

I'd just prefer the game to be as close to the original has localization allows.

 

[SeanTSC]

Resident Evil Revelations 2's dumb alternate costumes... Or how the latest Fatal Frame had a bikini costume which totally makes sense in the context of the story, displaying the uncomfortable and tragic exploitation of one character, only to later go "HEY, NOW YOU CAN PLAY IN HER BIKINI! OH AND DON'T WORRY, EVEN THOUGH IT DOESN'T APPEAR IN THE STORY, HERE'S SOME LINGERIE FOR YOUR OTHER CHARACTER. BECAUSE REASONS!" Yeahhhh fuck that shit. Hell, even the Ghost in the Shell series, Motoko is a tough, calculating leader, though she doesn't ever play herself as flirty or hypersexual or anything... while also wearing no pants. And even when she does, even in the middle of a tense action scene where everything is super serious, the still shove in a gratuitous close up of her ass. It's ridiculous.

Bitching about unlockable Alternate Costumes is something I'll never wrap my head around. Those are there for the people that want it and you never have to play the game wearing them. It's not wrong to give that kind of thing to people to play around with. They're not forced upon you. Optional Smut is great for those that want it and it doesn't hurt you or the game because it's there. People love smut, men and women love smut, grandmothers and grandfathers love smut, I love smut.

 

[RM8]

That's completely fair to hate it in stuff you like if you're uncomfortable with sexuality, but sex and smut is in every form of media, especially TV and movies - even the best of them. I think it's great that it's in games too. Yeah, it sucks when it's completely out of place and ruins a moment no matter what you're watching or playing, but I don't think innocuous random bits of it here and there hurts anyone.

It's not an "infection", it's part of life. Games aren't some "purer" form of media that it should be kept out of. It's like complaining that something like Game of Thrones has T&A. Some boobs and butts here and there doesn't make a game a lesser piece of work because of it. This isn't a knock against you specifically, but I think it's weird that so many American adults readily embrace it or mindlessly give it a pass in many of shows and movies that they watch and then kinda freak out when it's in a video game.

I just don't think it belongs everywhere - like in other mediums. I don't see what it adds to Fire Emblem, and if the addition of pandering was indeed done to attract the otaku money, then I dislike the change even more. It's tacky, tasteless, off putting, and it sucks because it was shoehorned into something I really love. Why do I need to see my units in swimwear? What's the point of the face rubbing mini game, exactly? I just don't see the point.

 

[SeanTSC]

I just don't think it belongs everywhere - like in other mediums. I don't see what it adds to Fire Emblem, and if the addition of pandering was indeed done to attract the otaku money, then I dislike the change even more. It's tacky, tasteless, off putting, and it sucks because it was shoehorned into something I really love. Why do I need to see my units in swimwear? What's the point of the face rubbing mini game, exactly? I just don't see the point.

Well, just because it's tacky and tasteless to you doesn't mean it is to everyone. Yeah, I think the face rubbing stuff is really weird too - and that's probably an instance where it's really out of place. I'm not totally up to date on details on the new Fire Emblem game, is the swimwear stuff totally optional? If so, it doesn't hurt you. Though also, it's just swimwear. Maybe it's different for people who didn't grow up on a coast, but that's totally normal stuff to me.

 

[KirbYuuYuu]

Well, just because it's tacky and tasteless to you doesn't mean it is to everyone. Yeah, I think the face rubbing stuff is really weird too - and that's probably an instance where it's really out of place. I'm not totally up to date on details on the new Fire Emblem game, is the swimwear stuff totally optional? If so, it doesn't hurt you. Though also, it's just swimwear. Maybe it's different for people who didn't grow up on a coast, but that's totally normal stuff to me.

It is optional. Facerubbing sounds optional as well. It's there and not really necessary for anything important.

EDIT: I feel like we've been over this in this thread, but I know it's been brought up before. Given the significent boost to FE:A, even if it got a boost from "otaku", the amount of popularity it gained is far larger than what I would expect from a game specifically aimed to them.

 

[Crossing Eden]

That's completely fair to hate it in stuff you like if you're uncomfortable with sexuality, but sex and smut is in every form of media, especially TV and movies - even the best of them. I think it's great that it's in games too. Yeah, it sucks when it's completely out of place and ruins a moment no matter what you're watching or playing, but I don't think innocuous random bits of it here and there hurts anyone.

It's not an "infection", it's part of life. Games aren't some "purer" form of media that it should be kept out of. It's like complaining that something like Game of Thrones has T&A. Some boobs and butts here and there doesn't make a game a lesser piece of work because of it. This isn't a knock against you specifically, but I think it's weird that so many American adults readily embrace it or mindlessly give it a pass in many of shows and movies that they watch and then kinda freak out when it's in a video game.

The thing is that people rarely are legitimately uncomfortable with sexuality, especially not in life, and it's absolutely not part of life the way "sexuality,"( as in the costume designers and camera men being creepy AF), is portrayed in games. It's thematically appropriate in Game of Thones a shit ton more often than it is in games.

 

[SeanTSC]

It is optional. Facerubbing sounds optional as well. It's there and not really necessary for anything important.

Totally optional swimwear? Great, then it doesn't hurt you. Also, again, swimwear is no big deal. I think waaaaaaay too much of America has never been anywhere warm or near water in their life. That stuff is completely normal every day attire for a lot of areas so seeing it in a game, no matter the setting, never bugs me in the least. Optional Facerubbing is still weird, but if you don't have to do it, then don't and stop worrying about it.

Also, people need to stop with the "Otaku money" stuff. They're not the only demographic that likes that kind of thing.

 

[SeanTSC]

The thing is that people rarely are legitimately uncomfortable with sexuality, especially not in life, and it's absolutely not part of life the way "sexuality,"( as in the costume designers and camera men being creepy AF), is portrayed in games. It's thematically appropriate in Game of Thones a shit ton more often than it is in games.

Boy is that one of the most blatantly untrue things I've ever heard in my life. America is crazy uncomfortable with it on the whole, especially admitting that they like those kind of things openly, and with acknowledging the sexual preferences of other people. I don't know how you can say that kind of thing with a straight face with how big an of an issue bigotry and gay rights still are.

 

[KirbYuuYuu]

The thing is that people rarely are legitimately uncomfortable with sexuality, especially not in life, and it's absolutely not part of life the way "sexuality,"( as in the costume designers and camera men being creepy AF), is portrayed in games. It's thematically appropriate in Game of Thones a shit ton more often than it is in games.

This assumes that sex is generally used in a thematically appropriate manner in any given situation, which it's not.

Totally optional swimwear? Great, then it doesn't hurt you. Also, again, swimwear is no big deal. I think waaaaaaay too much of America has never been anywhere warm or near water in their life. That stuff is completely normal every day attire for a lot of areas so seeing it in a game, no matter the setting, never bugs me in the least. Optional Facerubbing is still weird, but if you don't have to do it, then don't and stop worrying about it.

Also, people need to stop with the "Otaku money" stuff. They're not the only demographic that likes that kind of thing.

A bit baseless on guessing where people live. At best, I live in AK, where warm weather is kinda rare until the summer, so I'm boned anyway. No real beaches either.

EDIT: Probably should just drop out for now. It's too late and I'm not sure if this will still be here for postage.

 

[Shaanyboi]

Totally optional swimwear? Great, then it doesn't hurt you. Also, again, swimwear is no big deal. I think waaaaaaay too much of America has never been anywhere warm or near water in their life. That stuff is completely normal every day attire for a lot of areas so seeing it in a game, no matter the setting, never bugs me in the least. Optional Facerubbing is still weird, but if you don't have to do it, then don't and stop worrying about it.

Also, people need to stop with the "Otaku money" stuff. They're not the only demographic that likes that kind of thing.

Considering Fatal Frame's swimsuit exists for a pretty fucking negative context in the game's story, turning around once you've completed the story and going "GOOD JOB! NOW YOU GET TO CHECK HER OUT IN THIS BIKINI OUTFIT!" feels completely fucking tone deaf to their own message.

 

[Li Kao]

There is a thing that has annoyed me tonight, a point where my mind got all does not compute on me and I would like input on it.
NOW keep in mind that my post is totally, how to put it, candid ? Naive ? I have in no way the desire to derail the thread so if answering me does that, please don't answer. And no, I am not writing this to attack people, whoever they may be.
That being said I have a problem with Rise.
You might say that her attire is a little on the sexy side, but overall I do think you could see people wearing this costume. And when I see her my first thought is that I am seeing a perfectly healthy empowered young lady.
So here's what I genuinely don't understand: is the whole empowerement thing just the empowerement to hide oneself body ? Surely not. I mean what I can't grasp here is that at some point about Rise we enter a bizarro world were feminism would critisize the costume for being too sexy when what I think is one of the whole point of female empowerement is being able to wear what you want without being judged by men. That you can be sexy without willing to be seen as a sexual object.
And I have nothing against it, it's a noble cause. And then people go and say that Rise show too much skin.
Again, a very candid post, I have trouble processing that people that want female empowerement are rejecting the image of what to me is a fine young lady.

 

[Nanashrew]

I'm a bit of a sexual deviant and love a lot of smut but geeze. I'll find myself rolling my eyes at most types of fan service because of how clear it is with what they're doing. Fan service isn't a requirement or a necessary tool in most things. It's not about having an issue with sex, it's more of how often it's so incredibly stupid, shallow, unfulfilling and pointless most of it is that it serves no purpose in a majority of works that it's tone deaf and makes me criticize the artist more because their vision is a mess with no clear focus.

"Artist's vision" can also be a dumb argument because even an artist can have a blurry vision with no meaning behind it and they'll be the ones to often double down on stupid crap.

EDIT: And yes, I do know sometimes things don't need a meaning behind it, but those that put meaning behind it with stupid stuff are the ones with blurry vision. I also still think the meaning behind the black clothes in FF15 is stupid when it didn't need a meaning other than "they look cool," but then again FF15 has gone through so many changes and gotten new people, what even is the artist's vision of it? It just further illustrates the artist can be wrong and not have a proper vision for something or tries to force a meaning behind something and people will eat it up.

 

[wyrdwad]

"Artist's vision" can also be a dumb argument because even an artist can have a blurry vision with no meaning behind it and they'll be the ones to often double down on stupid crap.

Still their vision, though! No matter how stupid it is, it's not really in our place to say, "Nope, sorry, that's not acceptable art. We're going to have to remove that for you, because we know better."

(My issue is only with the censorship of artistic content during localization; criticism is completely fine and in fact highly encouraged, I just hate when people take it that one step too far and decide that they know better than the game's creator.)

You say that you think about the girls in your old class and not wanting to stamp on their dream... I'd say it's a pretty fucked up dream when you consider the greater context.

Key words bolded.

"You'd say."

The problem is, I wouldn't. I don't think there's anything wrong with that dream at all, because like I said... it makes them happy. It's a choice on their part, and one that brought them together with a group of close friends, helped them work up the courage to take vocal lessons and learn complex choreography, take up sewing and costume design, and basically thoroughly enjoy their childhoods through an interesting and highly social hobby that also has the added benefit of helping them connect with others, and could even prove extremely lucrative for them in the future.

I don't like every part of idol culture either, but its benefits FAR outweigh its drawbacks, and it's probably the healthiest "fame culture" of any country in the world.

And if people want to be a part of it, I think that should be encouraged. They know what they're getting into, and they aren't just willing, but eager to get into it.

You find it distasteful, and I don't fault you for that -- it has its seedier elements, to be sure. But look at the bottom line: no one is forcing anyone to become a part of this lifestyle, nor do or say or wear anything they aren't 100% willing and eager to do or say or wear. It's all personal choice, and the vast majority of people who choose it choose it because they LOVE it.

And that's just not something I can realistically oppose. Even if parts of it are seedy, the alternatives are all SO MUCH WORSE. And pop idols can (and do) do so much good, helping with charity work and children's specials and such on a regular basis.

They're one of those contradictions in Japanese culture that's hard to comprehend if you haven't seen it first-hand... but if you have, it's hard to hate.

-Tom