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Analysis: What really happened in Final Fantasy VIII (SPOILERS)

charlequin said:
What insight, precisely, are we gaining through this approach that is not present in the vanilla narrative? That Squall is an emo jerk who secretly underneath his harsh facade wishes for romantic love, familial bonds, and camaraderie? OH WAIT THAT'S ALL ALREADY IN THE GAME



Presumably someone who had a stupid theory about the game's zomg seekrit meaning and who wants people to take it halfway seriously would?

EDIT: god you guys are nitpicking the translation now wtf
:lol This is what happens to me when I'm sick and stuck in my room, trying to procrastinate work. At this point I don't believe the theory to be "true" but I'm interested to see how many consistencies can actually point to that conclusion.
 

mikeGFG

Banned
FoxSpirit said:
Sidenote: When JRPGs want you to know something really important, they'll let you.
Tragedy is made clear to you, insanity is.

This analysis goes into modern arts discussion, where a Square on a white canvas is discussed for hours. Only this is Final Fantasy.

Oh yeah, and Tidus... well, in the end even he survived being not quite real. Being dead in a japanese setting can be very non permanent. :lol

P much. subtly is lost on japanese rpgs.

What happens in the story, literally happens, there is nothing to interpret.
 

Rahul

Member
charlequin said:
What insight, precisely, are we gaining through this approach that is not present in the vanilla narrative? That Squall is an emo jerk who secretly underneath his harsh facade wishes for romantic love, familial bonds, and camaraderie? OH WAIT THAT'S ALL ALREADY IN THE GAME



Presumably someone who had a stupid theory about the game's zomg seekrit meaning and who wants people to take it halfway seriously would?

EDIT: god you guys are nitpicking the translation now wtf
Dude, you need an attitude overhaul. There's really no call for this callousness. OH WAIT NOW I'LL TYPE IN ALL CAPS. You seem to have an issue with accepting that there are different interpretations of things that may not agree with your personal view of things. I don't have a problem with that, but as long as you come in here looking down your nose at me, we're not going to get anywhere in this discussion.
 
not to derail this thread, but is there a good site to get video summarizes of games you might have missed?

I beat FF8, won't go into details about what I did or didn't like but it is what turned me off from the series
 

Rahul

Member
GodfatherX said:
not to derail this thread, but is there a good site to get video summarizes of games you might have missed?

I beat FF8, won't go into details about what I did or didn't like but it is what turned me off from the series

What do you want to see summarised? The whole thing? Check out video reviews on stuff like Gametrailers or 1up. If you want summaries of the story or something you'll probably have to find something on Youtube.
 
I didn't play the game for a few years, but I just checked the German version (done by Tetsuhiko Hara and Hirofumi Yamada) and it's translated very, very faithfully to the original Japanese.
 

Freshmaker

I am Korean.
Roto13 said:
I'd love to read a proper retranslation of FFVIII, but I'm not bothering with weeaboo bullshit like this. :lol
Judging by the discussion on the thread, they seem to be missing who Edea's addressing. Most are operating under the assumption that she's only talking to the crowd. She seems to still be talking about her own experiences and what she plans to do, but it's couched in double speak enough so that the crowd -hearing what they want to hear- cheers it thinking she's promising to use her power to make Galbria more powerful.

Basically that thread is Hakanakumono badly translating the story and trying to push his preconceptions through which is make possible only due to his insufficient knowledge of Japanese.

DaBubba's the only one in the thread who seems to know what they're talking about.
 
Freshmaker said:
Yep. It makes the story even dumber.
Because it does not lend itself to your interpretation? It doesn't disprove it either.

The game's story is open to interpretation. If you think this is Ultimecia's motivation and if it helps you enjoy the story, then this is the right interpretation. Your right interpretation.

Just as much as other people's ideas are valid if it pleases them. Anything goes! :)
 

flyover

Member
ElFly said:
I don't know if you've noticed, but ultimecia is actually hanging down from the thing.
Holy crap. To me, this is the most amazing thing in this thread (and I'm enjoying the thread). Never saw it before -- but, in retrospect, it's so obvious.
 
Rebochan said:
She's supposed to be immature, but I think there's still a fine line between general immaturity and sheer obnoxiousness. She couldn't have gotten as far as she did on her own if her reaction to everything was a temper tantrum and she responded to everyone with baby talk. She had a level of competency to get there, just extreme naivety and bad motivations that held her back.
My problem with the example in the quote is that the fanslator calls the original translator a poor writer, but then doesn't provide an example of what would constitute better writing, implying at glance that the literal translation = good writing.
 

Freshmaker

I am Korean.
Prime Blue said:
Because it does not lend itself to your interpretation? It doesn't disprove it either.
No, it is worse because it removes Ultimecia's motivations entirely. That's convenient if you have for some bizarre reason latched onto the idea that Ultimecia's not developed in the story at all, but it's not a better or more correct translation. It does so largely because the guy doesn't know much kanji and/or grammar.

It reminds me of my old Suikoden notes.

"Teo, why so tense?" (Kinda what they meant... The Hero's dad was just telling him to relax)

Then later in the second village where everyone's starving, I concluded a kid was saying he had diarrhea. (The actual translation: he said he was having stomach pains because he was starving to death.)

So take that spotty Suikoden translation and run wild with it mighty stallion. I hope you use it to come up with some incredible rich new meanings to the text. :lol
 

Vamphuntr

Member
Mindblown. Goodwork. This theory is really interesting. It is definitly a nice way to make sense of FF8 convoluted plot. I really liked the ending analysis.

The thing is, like you said on your site, is that if this is the truth then the writers were really not good at making this easy to understand.

The only weak part of your theory is that the dream would explain everything crazy going on : the real boss of Balamb's garden (NORG), the orphanage, moombas, the moon, the witch from the future plotline. It would be really convenient. I mean it would be really surprising they went all this way to have some sort of plot based on the flow of time with crazy plot twists only for it to be all a dream an not clearly confirm it's a dream.

Some ridiculous things also happen in the first disk before Squall's demise. For example, everyone are using GF. Some legendary beast you equip to gain mystical abilities. The headmaster gives you a lamp with some demonic GF in it. The dream sequences with Laguna also start early on. To assassinate Edea they sent a bunch of rookies. Irvine even admit to never actually shot someone before. I mean if it's a crucial mission you at least make sure to check the background of the key players. Edea is also some kind of witch right off the bat. If it's really a dream then it would mean the writers never planned to explain Edea's ''real'' background.

Squall surviving the ice spell is dumb and awkward but so are some of the thing I posted above happening before this event. Your theory at least makes a lot of sense for this event. That would explain his magically disappearing wound. At the same time since the story is kind of confusing and akward it could be like you suggested that Edea healed him maybe she was able to fight ultimecia inside her body for a quick moment or some sort of time twist took place, ie squall was warped through the time loop to another one of his tries where he was not hit by the spell and merely jailed.

The ending is really confusing too (and so is the opening FMV). I really love your explanation for the with the feather. When I played it for the first time I taught Squall died during the final battle and was dreaming of a happy ending. When I learned of the time loop theory I interpreted it as a combination of events from different loops. The weird/blurry part being from other loops and kinda distant. And now after reading your theory I have no ideas what is going on anymore.

At least we can conclude that FF8 plot was poorly written in a sense that it is impossible to be sure what the actual story is all about.
 

Freshmaker

I am Korean.
Vamphuntr said:
The ending is really confusing too (and so is the opening FMV). I really love your explanation for the with the feather. When I played it for the first time I taught Squall died during the final battle and was dreaming of a happy ending. When I learned of the time loop theory I interpreted it as a combination of events from different loops. The weird/blurry part being from other loops and kinda distant. And now after reading your theory I have no ideas what is going on anymore.
Squall being somewhat distant from his friends and the people he loved, had a hard time bringing himself back to the present. He almost died, (the weird imagery was him eroding in the time stream) but he finally managed to focus on someone important to him at the last moment, which pulled him back to the proper time period.
 
Freshmaker said:
No, it is worse because it removes Ultimecia's motivations entirely. That's convenient, but it's not a better or more correct translation. It does so largely because the guy doesn't know much kanji and/or grammar.
What guy?
 

speedpop

Has problems recognising girls
I remember this theory being thrown around awhile back, with the intent on replaying the game and taking it on board. Rediscovering it might give me enough enticement to pick it up.
 

anaron

Member
Prime Blue said:
ULTIMANIA is written by the staff of Studio Bent Stuff, not Nojima.

Which is approved by Square.

If it wasn't correct, it wouldn't be approved.

But since people keep bitching about how we can't use the Ultimania as a source(hahaha) then here is an example: Adel clearly is searching for girls to rule over, why would she do that if she were immortal?

I killed Ultimecia with Angelo's Counter, after spamming dozens of Renzokukens. That dog was the real fated SeeD!

:lol

Himoru said:
- It is not said why the Esthar soldiers want little girls, but this is busted open later on it is revealed that in Ultimecia's timeline Junction Machine Ellone (god I feel embarrassed typing all of this) has evolved into a highly technically advanced machine. Ultimecia, who had at the time, control of Adel, wanted Ellone for her power.

I thought it states in the game that Adel is searching for girls to rule over in her place? and that when she heard of Ellones power, decided she would be the best suitable.

Also I'm gonna agree with Elfy, I think Ellone has a piece of hynes power.
 

Freshmaker

I am Korean.
Prime Blue said:
I assumed you followed our thread... :(
I made the silly assumption that your reply to my post had something to do with my post. (The part you quoted was talking about the Gamefaqs translation.) Stupid me.

If you want to have an actual discussion on some topic, feel free to explain what the heck it is you're trying to say. If you're accusing me of posting on GameFAQs... (Shiver) Forget it. I haven't been on a GF forum in years.
 

ElFly

Member
Linking to gamefaqs only brought problems! Who would have guessed that?! :lol

The important point is that Squall doesn't say "..." all the time in the original.
 

konstarGAF

Neo Member
first say that english isn't my language so sorry for the possible errors.

Read the article, and the posts in this thread but i think there's somethings that are important that you don't mention, Rahul.

First one is the flower field, something that appears in the opening, during the game and in the ending. It's the place where Rinoa is searching for Squall, the place where the castle of Ultimecia was, the place where Rinoa told Squall that if they were lost, they will reunite there, the place where he will find her.

It's the place where Rinoa grabs a flower petal and transform it to a feather that later Squall find.

Second thing is what that feather shows him. What it made him realise to wake up. You say it told him that he was dead, but you don't mention these images:
20zr43l.png

67t79j.png

It looks like Rinoa possessed by Ultimecia.

Watching the ending it seems what Rinoa wanted to tell Squall that she'll become Ultimecia if he doesn't wake up and lives.

Looks that Rinoa knows what is going to happen, that Squall will be lost in that dimension and die, tell him to meet at the flower field if he is lost and uses the feather to tell him that if he doesn't wake up and lives Rinoa will convert to Ultimecia, losing Rinoa and their love.

When he grabs the feather he sees Rinoa, he knows it's her but her face is blurred. Looks like Rinoa but seem that it isn't her but another person. That's when he's trying to remember her and the image of Rinoa being Ultimecia appears, showing what will happen.
The following images are memories of the time with Rinoa with a last image of Rinoa disappearing because she will be Ultimecia.

The faceless Squall and the last image means that Squall will be empty and that emptiness is Rinoa dying and their love, represented by the two rings breaking and disappearing. He realises this, cry and wakes up.
The secuence we see then is Rinoa finding Squall in the flower field, to me this happens the moment Squall grabs the feather. While he is ahving that vision Rinoa hug him, and the feather falling in that white space is the ray of light that goes through the clouds and illuminates Squall finally waking up.

For what you say of this being a dream, it seems like while dreaming he forgets that it's a dream, Ultimecia knows that it's a dream and Rinoa too. Rinoa is the one who tell him and gives him heaven.
I doubt that is posible, for that he needs an external help or power that influences him and help him to have that dream and what happens in it. It is like in the two movies that you mention and you think it's a bad thing they told that an external power is helping them having that dream. But without that, they will never be dreaming.

It looks like Edea with her hate for the Seed when she kills them, make their soul be in a state of dreaming where they forget that are dying, to make his dreams come true and in the end when they beat Ultimecia to be in Hell. That desolate place Squall wanders to be lost and alone. But at the same time the good part that is still inside Ultimecia doesn't want this, it takes the form of Rinoa telling him about the flower field and sending him the feather and telling him the truth and giving him Heaven, a happy ending where he is happy with Rinoa and friends.... i don't think so.

To me it looks that in an alternate time they beat Ultimecia, Squall died, Rinoa is being controlled by Ultimecia which goes back in time, posses Edea but she still has a part of Rinoa inside. When all that happens at the end of Disc 1, is when that part that is inside Edea leaves her to go inside Rinoa. That would explain that Rinoa starts taking interest in Squall and falling in love with him and the reason that she knows what will happen and what she tell him in the flower field. The Rinoa from the future is inside the Rinoa from the present.

I personally don't believe that, it's not strange to maybe be in love of someone, in this case Seifer, but when she saw he was with Edea, tries to kill her, Squall saves her from the monsters and tried to kill the one that saved her.... the feelings she had for Seifer will surely change. Just look at the face of Rinoa screaming when Squall is hit by the "icy spear". She just starts falling in love with Squall.
For the theory of Rinoa future being inside Rinoa present and that sequence in the flower fields, i really need to play the game again. I don't remember if this was before or after they were in the moon. I remember that in the moon Rinoa told Squall about her love to him, and later she leaves and Squall goes rescue her. That scene where they hug... so maybe if this is after Rinoa being rescued that's when she knows what will happen or not.

Either way i need to play the game again, i didn't catch that Rinoa=Ultimecia thing, or Laguna is Squall father te first time... but understood what happened in the ending. Rinoa disappearing, Squall will lost her and your love and he cries because of this and wakes up in the place Rinoa told him. Even if you include that faceless Squall it still means Squall is empty and not dead, just look how the camara goes through the hole to show Rinoa in space.

The thing about Squall dying at the end of disc 1 and the reason to him saying "no wound" is becouse is soul leaves his body to enter Laguna body in the past thanks to Ellene, so she is the one that saves him.
 

Rahul

Member
konstarGAF said:
first say that english isn't my language so sorry for the possible errors.

Read the article, and the posts in this thread but i think there's somethings that are important that you don't mention, Rahul.

(wall of text)

I am aware of this theory and my GF and I don't agree with it because we feel there is no real evidence in place to support it. I understand that that's a criticism of our very own theory as well, but we both believe that there is more in the game to warrant the belief in Squall's Dead than R=U. R=U seems to be based on reading into things like the fact that the CG model of Ultimecia happens to look sort of like Rinoa, which is probably more related to Square's limited modeling techniques in 1998 than it is to any subtle story designs.

Thanks for taking the time to write up your response, however. I appreciate it!
 

hamchan

Member
Rahul, I support your theory. I think that your theory makes sense and makes the FFVIII story much more enjoyable to me.
 

Lord Phol

Member
Well basically we can all agree that Disc 1 was AWESOME and the rest just WTFBad.
Never got around to finnish it because of all the bullshit it threw out. First you have this great loveable and memorable game, then you change disc expecting to be drowned in awesomesauce but are instead punched in the face.

The Laguna parts are always great though, and I still have some very fond and great memories with the game..aaah.. *wanders off into nostalgia*
 
Lord Phol said:
Well basically we can all agree that Disc 1 was AWESOME and the rest just WTFBad.
Never got around to finnish it because of all the bullshit it threw out. First you have this great loveable and memorable game, then you change disc expecting to be drowned in awesomesauce but are instead punched in the face.

The Laguna parts are always great though, and I still have some very fond and great memories with the game..aaah.. *wanders off into nostalgia*


What ISN'T awesome about quantum leaping time-sorceresses? Screw the haters.

quantum-leap-1.jpg
 

ElFly

Member
anaron said:
Which is approved by Square.

If it wasn't correct, it wouldn't be approved.

Man, there's lot of official stuff out there that clearly contradicts the original source.

But even if it was written by the game director himself, at the same time of the making of the game, it's still not part of the game.
 

Freshmaker

I am Korean.
ElFly said:
Linking to gamefaqs only brought problems! Who would have guessed that?! :lol
New Criticism suffers yet another setback. :lol

The important point is that Squall doesn't say "..." all the time in the original.
He is far too polite. He shouldn't be rude. Just painfully shy! Also, "Talk to a wall" is too abrupt.
 

konstarGAF

Neo Member
Rahul said:
I am aware of this theory and my GF and I don't agree with it because we feel there is no real evidence in place to support it. I understand that that's a criticism of our very own theory as well, but we both believe that there is more in the game to warrant the belief in Squall's Dead than R=U. R=U seems to be based on reading into things like the fact that the CG model of Ultimecia happens to look sort of like Rinoa, which is probably more related to Square's limited modeling techniques in 1998 than it is to any subtle story designs.

Thanks for taking the time to write up your response, however. I appreciate it!
But what about the first thing, the flower field. Isn't that important enough?.
How Ultimecia knows that Squall is dying and is going to hell and Rinoa knows this too, saving Squall sending him the feather and telling him that he is dead and giving him heaven.

You say in "One last thing" about the movie Vanilla sky:
"in the final moments of the film as a character carefully explains to the protagonist, and the audience, that the whole movie was really just a dream.
Maybe the only real difference between Final Fantasy VIII and Vanilla Sky is: they just never told us what really happened. In Final Fantasy VIII, they let us live in the dream as Squall did and we never know the difference."

But even if nobody tell us in FF8, like in Vanilla Sky an external force/power help us have that dream and even appears in the game as Ultimecia and the Rinoa in the flower field, knowing the fate of Squall and saving him from Hell to give him Heaven.

I think your theory isn't correct because of this, you are forgetting the external force. Even thinking that way or R=U, what is true is that U and R knows what will happen to Squall and Rinoa tries to prevent this. I would like you to explain why they know this.

An sincerily, that U=R isn't correct because
Rahul said:
CG model of Ultimecia happens to look sort of like Rinoa, which is probably more related to Square's limited modeling techniques in 1998 than it is to any subtle story designs.!
Really? even if that explains the plot or even why Rinoa knows what will happen to Squall and all that.

Why can't be the reason to "no wound" that Ellene saves him?. After he is impaled, he goes back in time to the body of Laguna. Like time is compressing and Ellene is using this too to help Squall.
 
Freshmaker said:
I made the silly assumption that your reply to my post had something to do with my post. (The part you quoted was talking about the Gamefaqs translation.) Stupid me.

If you want to have an actual discussion on some topic, feel free to explain what the heck it is you're trying to say.
You're mean. MEANY!

Honestly, though.

anaron said:
Which is approved by Square.

If it wasn't correct, it wouldn't be approved.
I just don't think the original scenario writer proofreads outsourced guide books. That's not to mean that witches were meant to be immortal, but basing it off the ULTIMANIA is not the best way to disprove it.

anaron said:
I thought it states in the game that Adel is searching for girls to rule over in her place? and that when she heard of Ellones power, decided she would be the best suitable.
Yeah, it was stated that Esthar was searching for a girl to become the successor of their ruler, the witch Adell. This is actually one of the more confusing points in the story, especially since there were two Esthar girl hunts: One when Ellione was two years old (there, her parents were killed and she was taken in by Raine...why wouldn't they capture her then?), then another when Laguna was around. They took her to Esthar and there, Dr. Odine began to research her powers.

The confusing part is why Esthar would look for a successor to Adell. That would seem very considerate for a tyrant like her. And then, why would they just lock her up and perform research instead of Adell going all brain-washy on her? And Adell doesn't look anywhere near death either. Nor is she more than a decade later. Or is the witch coffin cryogenic? Why make it cryogenic in the first place when you can just lock her up and watch her die, problem solved? Aaaaaaah!

Rahul said:
R=U seems to be based on reading into things like the fact that the CG model of Ultimecia happens to look sort of like Rinoa, which is probably more related to Square's limited modeling techniques in 1998 than it is to any subtle story designs.
I don't know, I think she looks completely different. Not anything like Rinoa.

2wmkivl.png
 

Rahul

Member
konstarGAF said:
But what about the first thing, the flower field. Isn't that important enough?.
How Ultimecia knows that Squall is dying and is going to hell and Rinoa knows this too, saving Squall sending him the feather and telling him that he is dead and giving him heaven.

You say in "One last thing" about the movie Vanilla sky:
"in the final moments of the film as a character carefully explains to the protagonist, and the audience, that the whole movie was really just a dream.
Maybe the only real difference between Final Fantasy VIII and Vanilla Sky is: they just never told us what really happened. In Final Fantasy VIII, they let us live in the dream as Squall did and we never know the difference."

But even if nobody tell us in FF8, like in Vanilla Sky an external force/power help us have that dream and even appears in the game as Ultimecia and the Rinoa in the flower field, knowing the fate of Squall and saving him from Hell to give him Heaven.

I think your theory isn't correct because of this, you are forgetting the external force. Even thinking that way or R=U, what is true is that U and R knows what will happen to Squall and Rinoa tries to prevent this. I would like you to explain why they know this.

An sincerily, that U=R isn't correct because
Really? even if that explains the plot or even why Rinoa knows what will happen to Squall and all that.

Why can't be the reason to "no wound" that Ellene saves him?. After he is impaled, he goes back in time to the body of Laguna. Like time is compressing and Ellene is using this too to help Squall.

Like I said, you can go with that theory if you want. I don't see much point in us sitting here trying to explain away each other's theories; we obviously both believe in a particular one.

Prime Blue said:
I don't know, I think she looks completely different. Not anything like Rinoa.

Yeah, so do I - but it seemed like konstarGAF felt that way.
 

ElFly

Member
Prime Blue said:
You're mean. MEANY!

Honestly, though.


I just don't think the original scenario writer proofreads outsourced guide books. That's not to mean that witches were meant to be immortal, but basing it off the ULTIMANIA is not the best way to disprove it.


Yeah, it was stated that Esthar was searching for a girl to become the successor of their ruler, the witch Adell. This is actually one of the more confusing points in the story, especially since there were two Esthar girl hunts: One when Ellione was two years old (there, her parents were killed and she was taken in by Raine...why wouldn't they capture her then?), then another when Laguna was around. They took her to Esthar and there, Dr. Odine began to research her powers.

The confusing part is why Esthar would look for a successor to Adell. That would seem very considerate for a tyrant like her. And then, why would they just lock her up and perform research instead of Adell going all brain-washy on her? And Adell doesn't look anywhere near death either. Nor is she more than a decade later. Or is the witch coffin cryogenic? Why make it cryogenic in the first place when you can just lock her up and watch her die, problem solved? Aaaaaaah!


I don't know, I think she looks completely different. Not anything like Rinoa.

[I
MG]http://i50.tinypic.com/2wmkivl.png[/IMG]


IIRC, the two "hunts for a successor" happen with Adel in power, so even if they hated Adel, they had to do it because Adel is fricking scary.

Remember that in the second one they capture Ellone, and then Laguna sets off to Esthar, and then he throws Adel into the space fridge, so Esthar is finally free from the witch.



Freshmaker said:
New Criticism suffers yet another setback. :lol

:lol
 

dierat

Member
This just in - Ellone is Ultimecia!!

67t79j.png
080110022214291tj1.jpg





konstarGAF said:
But even if nobody tell us in FF8, like in Vanilla Sky an external force/power help us have that dream and even appears in the game as Ultimecia and the Rinoa in the flower field, knowing the fate of Squall and saving him from Hell to give him Heaven.
If I understand what you're saying correctly, you mean there has to be an external force in the game that makes Squall have the dream, like in Vanilla Sky? There doesn't need to be an external force. Anyone can have a dream; you don't need someone to create that dream for you. There was an 'external force' in Vanilla Sky, but they didn't create his dream. They just put him to sleep, but they had to intervene because his dream became.. twisted.

And, just out of curiosity, why was Squall going to hell exactly?
 

ElFly

Member
Ellone being Ultimecia would be really awesome.

She couldn't send herself back in time, so she needed to kidnap herself. From the future.
 

Nemo

Will Eat Your Children
Eh it's obviously Zell, look at that tat

Jason's Ultimatum said:
I think I'm going to play FF8 again. Being poor sucks, so it isn't like I can go out and buy all the latest AAA gamses I want. :lol
But now you get to play an AAAA game anyway so it's all good =)
 
ElFly said:
IIRC, the two "hunts for a successor" happen with Adel in power, so even if they hated Adel, they had to do it because Adel is fricking scary.
That's not disputed, the general reasoning behind it is.

Freshmaker said:
I have explained why I don't think much of that translation.

That aside, I still don't get how that's supposed to be "better". It manages to be even more meaningless.
Okay, so you constantly referred to the GameFAQs translation and now you're saying you referred to the translation I posted?
 
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