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[LordOfChaos]

re: Trueaudio

Digital Foundry: Is there dedicated audio processing hardware within the PlayStation 4? What can it do?

Mark Cerny: There's dedicated audio hardware. The principal thing that it does is that it compresses and decompresses audio streams, various formats. So some of that is for the games - you'll have many, many audio streams in MP3 or another format and the hardware will take care of that for you. Or, on the system side for example, audio chat - the compression and decompression of that.

While it's not explicitly saying it's already enabled, it sure seems to imply it. There's no indication of "it's there but we're going to not use it for two and a half years for reasons". Unless there's evidence that TrueAudio/equivalent is not yet used by developers I'm not sure where any of that from the last page is coming from.

 

[Negotiator]

re: Trueaudio



While it's not explicitly saying it's already enabled, it sure seems to imply it. There's no indication of "it's there but we're going to not use it for two and a half years for reasons". Unless there's evidence that TrueAudio/equivalent is not yet used by developers I'm not sure where any of that from the last page is coming from.

Party Chat already uses TrueAudio for VoIP encoding/decoding, IIRC.

 

[c0de]

It raises a fair point though - what exactly defines current gen consoles as more PC like - we've had full blown x86 built with off-the shelf parts 15 years ago, and any console since at least DC was a fully functional PC with the right software.
And more importantly why would that make "upgrade revisions" easier to make (other hw that isn't PC like at all like portables, has been doing it for years).

Oh yes, what exactly is a pc is an interesting question.
Is it just a home computer? Or the IBM “Personal Computer“ which more or less defined the abbreviation?
I mean assuming you can boot an x86 os and you have the appropriate drivers, you can apparently run x86 binaries on a ps4. Without emulation. It's x86 compatible. Does this mean future upgrades will be automatically compatible? No but it's likely. Given Sony and MS both keep the isa and AMD gpus, who would expect anything different?

 

[c0de]

Even if they pull it off, Windows will run like ass on that architecture. You need a stripped-down -optimized for the Jaguar cores- Windows version (like the XB1 OS).

Even DX11 games will run like ass on the custom Radeon GPU...

Why that? Windows 10 is light on resources. The problem will be that there won't be any drivers. Also I don't see Windows running on a ps4 because most probably you can't boot it. What you will be able to do probably is start VirtualBox and install Windows from Linux. But yes, that's cheating.

 

[Negotiator]

Why that? Windows 10 is light on resources. The problem will be that there won't be any drivers. Also I don't see Windows running on a ps4 because most probably you can't boot it. What you will be able to do probably is start VirtualBox and install Windows from Linux. But yes, that's cheating.

It's not lighter than FreeBSD, is it? I mean, even the XB1 OS/UI is a bit sluggish compared to the PS4 OS/UI...

Regarding drivers, perhaps you could "hack" AMD's Radeon/APU drivers to make them compatible with the PS4, but what's the point? Games would barely run at 10fps, since they're made for a different architecture (discrete CPU/GPU, discrete memory pools)... x86-64 assembly code cannot overcome these issues. That's why it's not a "magic wand".

 

[onQ123]

One thing for sure is that Microsoft better have something in place to save Xbox One because if this becomes the standard PS4 it's going to make the Xbox One look really bad when games are 4K vs 900P.

Maybe this is the reason that MS is making the move to get devs to make UWP games right now so they will have the high end PC to fall back on so the Xbox games don't look bad when compared to a upgraded PS4. at the same time Sony could be making this move so PS4 games don't look bad next to UWP games.


Haven't MS been showing UWP games running in 4K lately?

 

[onQ123]

Just like "leaks" pointed out that Durango would destroy Orbis, that Sony was in talks about always-online DRM right before E3, etc? Did any one of those leaks give a damn good reason as to why it would happen?

No leaks pointed out that Durango would destroy Orbis.

 

[c0de]

It's not lighter than FreeBSD, is it? I mean, even the XB1 OS/UI is a bit sluggish compared to the PS4 OS/UI...

Why do you think bsd is lighter on resources than Windows? The current console UIs? They both had different targets when they were developed and still have and the os being sluggish doesn't mean it's due to the os or the CPU but could also mean it relies mutt ä more on network data but we don't know that exactly. It's only evidence, not a proof.

Regarding drivers, perhaps you could "hack" AMD's Radeon/APU drivers to make them compatible with the PS4, but what's the point? Games would barely run at 10fps, since they're made for a different architecture (discrete CPU/GPU, discrete memory pools)... x86-64 assembly code cannot overcome these issues. That's why it's not a "magic wand".

We don't know how they would run and how much the driver code needs to know about the gpu under the hood. Of course we can make wild guesses. And of course the CPU can't help when the GPU is lacking.

 

[spwolf]

One thing for sure is that Microsoft better have something in place to save Xbox One because if this becomes the standard PS4 it's going to make the Xbox One look really bad when games are 4K vs 900P.

Maybe this is the reason that MS is making the move to get devs to make UWP games right now so they will have the high end PC to fall back on so the Xbox games don't look bad when compared to a upgraded PS4. at the same time Sony could be making this move so PS4 games don't look bad next to UWP games.


Haven't MS been showing UWP games running in 4K lately?

thats the thing, isnt it... whoever does not do it, will be left in dust by company that does it... so both of them will be doing it for sure, question is just when.

 

[onQ123]

thats the thing, isnt it... whoever does not do it, will be left in dust by company that does it... so both of them will be doing it for sure, question is just when.

Microsoft is already there they just have to convince the 3rd party devs to make UWP games instead of making PC & Xbox games.

It should be easy to get the devs making Xbox One games to just switch over but the PC devs might not want to limit their games to Windows store.

 

[GamerMax73]

I should go away and say three hail mary's for starting the side topic, but the techie in me can't resist exploring interesting topics...Before I go on can I thank @gundamkyoukai and @tapantaola for understanding the points I was making.

What you will be able to do probably is start VirtualBox and install Windows from Linux.

That should work. Wonder how much work VirtualBox will need before it'll compile and run on PS4 Linux? Or if an existing linux binary will just automagically run? Does the APU even support AMD-V? It's an interesting question. Given VB is emulating things like the motherboard, chipset, and BIOS there's no reason to think this approach wouldn't work. Something in the back of my head is screaming it'd need a bit of re-write before it'd compile though. I'd be interested in finding out more.

Maybe this is the reason that MS is making the move to get devs to make UWP games right now so they will have the high end PC to fall back on so the Xbox games don't look bad when compared to a upgraded PS4.

The news stories do make me wonder if MS are looking for an exist strategy from the console space, as well as trying to kicking Valve down a peg or two.

We don't know how they would run and how much the driver code needs to know about the gpu under the hood.

From FailOverFlow and Digital Foundry:

It's close enough to a PC that getting 3D acceleration working, while rather painful (as we've learned), seems entirely possible without undue amounts of effort (in a timeframe of months, not years),

the team has made good progress in adapting the OS for the custom hardware, but notes that 3D acceleration and HDMI audio are still work-in-progress.

Interesting stuff.

Also (I can't resist, sorry):

you can apparently run x86 binaries on a ps4. Without emulation.

An x86 processor running x86 binaries, and without emulation. Wonders will never cease

Meh, I've started typing now:

Oh yes, what exactly is a pc is an interesting question.
Is it just a home computer? Or the IBM “Personal Computer“ which more or less defined the abbreviation?

In the context under discussion I'd have translated PC as being synonymous with the Wintel platform. As such the motherboard chipset, firmware (BIOS/EFI) and memory mapping are as equally important to the definition of the platform as the x86 CPU or the way video signals are processed. Since most of this is radically different on PS4 (see DF article), that's kinda my point really.

When you look at the architectural setup I'd argue the Xbox 360 was closer to PC in design than the PS4 is even though it used a PowerPC instruction set instead of an x86 instruction set.

 

[c0de]

That should work. Wonder how much work VirtualBox will need before it'll compile and run on PS4 Linux? Or if an existing linux binary will just automagically run? Does the APU even support AMD-V? It's an interesting question. Given VB is emulating things like the motherboard, chipset, and BIOS there's no reason to think this approach wouldn't work. Something in the back of my head is screaming it'd need a bit of re-write before it'd compile though. I'd be interested in finding out more.

It should be compatible abi wise. The binary should just work, you don't need special CPU features (but they could help for speed, of course).

In the context under discussion I'd have translated PC as being synonymous with the Wintel platform. As such the motherboard chipset, firmware (BIOS/EFI) and memory mapping are as equally important to the definition of the platform as the x86 CPU or the way video signals are processed. Since most of this is radically different on PS4 (see DF article), that's kinda my point really.

Well, that's totally ok but Wintel as a term is long not valid anymore, of course. I don't have Intel but amd? Ok but still pc. I don't run Windows but Linux on amd? Ok but still pc.
Could you please providE the link to the df article again? I wonder what they say about how a ps4 boots and how the memory is mapped differently.

 

[GamerMax73]

Well, that's totally ok but Wintel as a term is long not valid anymore, of course. I don't have Intel but amd? Ok but still pc. I don't run Windows but Linux on amd? Ok but still pc.
Could you please providE the link to the df article again? I wonder what they say about how a ps4 boots and how the memory is mapped differently.

Mmm, arguing the definition of the term Wintel, Arguing PS4's firmware and memory arrangements. I think I'm being trolled, I'm out.

 

[c0de]

Mmm, arguing the definition of the term Wintel, Arguing PS4's firmware and memory arrangements. I think I'm being trolled, I'm out.

So we finally agree at least on the same feeling. Best wishes!

 

[Caayn]

One thing for sure is that Microsoft better have something in place to save Xbox One because if this becomes the standard PS4 it's going to make the Xbox One look really bad when games are 4K vs 900P.

I highly doubt that an upgraded PS4 will render games in 4K (not counting indies). Especially if Sony is going to sell it without a taking a loss on each unit. Reading your posts in this thread I can't shake the feeling that you're massively underestimating the power required to render games in 4K at playable framerates.

Haven't MS been showing UWP games running in 4K lately?

No MS hasn't, it would be strange to even do so as UWP doesn't dictate a resolution cap.
UWP has been capable of running games in any desired resolution that the user wants.

 

[BackBackPunch]

A 4K gaming PC will cost $1000 minimum to build,and up to $2500+ if you want top performance. A PS4K designed for 4K gaming isn't going to be any cheaper than that, unless you're only going to be playing games like Candy Crush, and Sony isn't going to release a $1000+ PS4 unless they've gone crazy.

 

[onQ123]

I highly doubt that an upgraded PS4 will render games in 4K (not counting indies). Especially if Sony is going to sell it without a taking a loss on each unit. Reading your posts in this thread I can't shake the feeling that you're massively underestimating the power required to render games in 4K at playable framerates.

Your doubts don't change it from happening, which it will, it might not be brute force native 4K but the output will be 4K resolution not upscaled but rendered.

No MS hasn't, it would be strange to even do so as UWP doesn't dictate a resolution cap.
UWP has been capable of running games in any desired resolution that the user wants.

What does that have to do with what I said? I said haven't MS been showing UWP games in 4K lately? & they have they just showed KI in 4K & they also showed Forza & Gears in 4K

Microsoft makes big Xbox-on-PC push with 4K, 60 fps Forza 6 Apex

 

[Vashetti]

Your doubts don't change it from happening, which it will, it might not be brute force native 4K but the output will be 4K resolution not upscaled but rendered.

This is contradictory.

 

[Scrooged]

'Uprendered' is not a thing. It's either upscaled or rendered. PS4K will not be rendering games at 4K unless they are super simple 2D games.

 

[Vashetti]

'Uprendered' is not a thing. It's either upscaled or rendered. PS4K will not be rendering games at 4K unless they are super simple 2D games.

Yup.

 

[Adam Tyner]

'Uprendered' is not a thing

Yet. Do you doubt the will of Sony and AMD to invent it?

(No, I'm not serious.)

 

[Bitch Pudding]

What's the point of a PS4K if it still renders at 1080p and only up-scales to 4K?

The obvious benefit is 4k Blu-Ray Support. An internal upscaler for games could (!) prevent the input lag which is the result of current 4k TVs internal upscaling efforts. If I remember right I read something about a 4 frames per second lag on 60fps games.

So although upscaling is not even close to "real" 4K quality, it's still better than letting the TV do it. And at the end of the day, it allows Sony to introduce a "4K console" at the end of 2016 with a $400 price tag. Which would be absolutely impossible if it was supposed to render at 1440 let alone 2160p.

 

[platina]

'Uprendered' is not a thing. It's either upscaled or rendered. PS4K will not be rendering games at 4K unless they are super simple 2D games.

Unless temporal reprojection.

 

[Ushay]

One thing for sure is that Microsoft better have something in place to save Xbox One because if this becomes the standard PS4 it's going to make the Xbox One look really bad when games are 4K vs 900P.

Maybe this is the reason that MS is making the move to get devs to make UWP games right now so they will have the high end PC to fall back on so the Xbox games don't look bad when compared to a upgraded PS4. at the same time Sony could be making this move so PS4 games don't look bad next to UWP games.


Haven't MS been showing UWP games running in 4K lately?

I agree, they'll look terrible.

One thing nobody seems to have considered is, is this all reactionary to Nintendo's plans?

 

[onQ123]

This is contradictory.

No it's not because it could be taking the 1080P PS4 game than un-rendering it to 4K

 

[Vashetti]

No it's not because it could be taking the 1080P PS4 game than un-rendering it to 4K

Yes, this is also called upscaling.

 

[onQ123]

'Uprendered' is not a thing. It's either upscaled or rendered. PS4K will not be rendering games at 4K unless they are super simple 2D games.

See post from above. if Uprendering isn't a thing what is the PS2 games on PS4?

 

[anothertech]

A 4K gaming PC will cost $1000 minimum to build,and up to $2500+ if you want top performance. A PS4K designed for 4K gaming isn't going to be any cheaper than that, unless you're only going to be playing games like Candy Crush, and Sony isn't going to release a $1000+ PS4 unless they've gone crazy.

It will be easier to get to 4K on a console than on a PC because of closed system and Dev optimization. That said, it still seems far fetched at a 'console' price unless there is something unexpected happening.

 

[onQ123]

Yes, this is also called upscaling.

No it's not this will create 8294400 unique pixels while upscaling would just take the 2073600 pixels & scale it across the 8294400 pixels.

 

[Vashetti]

See post from above. if Uprendering isn't a thing what is the PS2 games on PS4?

The PS2 games are being rendered at a higher resolution through an emulator, because the PS4 is powerful enough to bruteforce that, as the games are so old and therefore have middling tech requirements.

Same as the Dolphin emulator for Wii and Gamecube games on PC, and PCSX2 for PS2 games on PC.

The PS4 is not powerful enough to render PS4-native games at 2160p. A PS4K is not going to be powerful enough to do it either. It's a technical impossibility at the current time to have hardware to do that, in a $399 box. My partner has a £3000 (almost) PC and can barely play The Division at 1440p at max settings and get 60fps. How do you propose the PS4K is going to do that, for $399 or less, in a console-sized box, with a 150w or lower power consumption, and controllable heat.

onQ123, I really admire your enthusiasm, I really do. But the majority of your posts in this thread come across as really misinformed. I think you're going to be really disappointed when this thing is finally announced. Sure, I can see the PS4K outputting true 3840x2160 resolution for certain non-demanding indie titles, but everything else is going to be a straight upscale from 1080p.

 

[Curufinwe]

Would be a huge fail if they call it that and then most games end up being upscaled to 4K rather than a native render though.

That doesn't matter to Sony if the system is popular.

 

[Herp Derpington]

I agree, they'll look terrible.

One thing nobody seems to have considered is, is this all reactionary to Nintendo's plans?

No one's considering it because Nintendo isn't a threat to what MS and Sony are going for. Or do you believe Nintendo has another Wii up it's sleeve?

 

[Scrooged]

See post from above. if Uprendering isn't a thing what is the PS2 games on PS4?

That's just rendering though. It's able to render emulated games at a higher resolution through an emulator. I see what you're talking about now, but it's exclusive to emulated games. No games made for the PS4 will be rendered at 4K on the PS4K. And new games won't run at 4K either. Just look at the article you linked to about 4K Forza. It was running on a computer with a GTX 980Ti and 32GB of RAM. That's $600 for the video card alone.

 

[Orayn]

See post from above. if Uprendering isn't a thing what is the PS2 games on PS4?

No. PS2 games on PS4 just multiply the size of the framebuffer by 2 in each direction and naively render the game at a higher resolution. (It also scales them after that.) It's doing the same thing as many PC emulators, not a new or exotic technique called "uprendering."

 

[Koren]

Thea allowed Linux for a while on the PS3 so I don't know what your point is.

Well, Sony made clear several times that they considered PS3 as a home computer and not a game console.

Most probably for marketing reasons and to escape some taxes, but still... ^_^

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

That's just rendering though. It's able to render emulated games at a higher resolution through an emulator. I see what you're talking about now, but it's exclusive to emulated games. No games made for the PS4 will be rendered at 4K on the PS4K. And new games won't run at 4K either. Just look at the article you linked to about 4K Forza. It was running on a computer with a GTX 980Ti and 32GB of RAM. That's $600 for the video card alone.

I obviously don't expect i7/980Ti/32GB RAM level specs in any theoretical PS4K but if Sony wished, they could produce a APU update with a surprising amount of power if they reset back to PS4's original ~150W given all the stars aligning in chips and processes.

I was actually surprised the PS4 came in at 150W given PS3 fat was ~190W...

AMD have shown that slide with the small form factor Polaris running a i7 4790K/32GB RAM etc pulling 1080P/60FPS/Medium in Battlefront @86W for a whole PC. Sure its a PR slide to be taken with a pinch of salt, but still shows what may be possible.

I don't think it ridiculous to imagine a 4 core Zen/Polaris APU system @150W doing 4K/30FPS/Medium (i.e. console settings!).

Saying that, I think if this new PS4 is here before years end it will just be a media/UHD update.

 

[onQ123]

That's just rendering though. It's able to render emulated games at a higher resolution through an emulator. I see what you're talking about now, but it's exclusive to emulated games. No games made for the PS4 will be rendered at 4K on the PS4K. And new games won't run at 4K either. Just look at the article you linked to about 4K Forza. It was running on a computer with a GTX 980Ti and 32GB of RAM. That's $600 for the video card alone.

No. PS2 games on PS4 just multiply the size of the framebuffer by 2 in each direction and naively render the game at a higher resolution. (It also scales them after that.) It's doing the same thing as many PC emulators, not a new or exotic technique called "uprendering."

Well time will tell & I say there will be 8294400 pixels in the final frame that comes from the PS4.5

 

[pixelation]

is this all reactionary to Nintendo's plans?

LMAO... i wish!!!

 

[Lady Gaia]

Would be a huge fail if they call it that and then most games end up being upscaled to 4K rather than a native render though.

You'd really be surprised given how much the 360/PS3 era was played up as the HD generation? Even though most titles were rendered at sub-720p resolutions?

Of course the first console that outputs content at 4K will be marketed heavily as a 4K product regardless of the actual native resolution of most games. It's part of building awareness about 4K across Sony's product line as much as anything. The next generation will do it better, and by PS6 hopefully 4K native titles at decent frame rates will be the norm.

 

[Vashetti]

You'd really be surprised given how much the 360/PS3 era was played up as the HD generation? Even though most titles were rendered at sub-720p resolutions?

Of course the first console that outputs content at 4K will be marketed heavily as a 4K product regardless of the actual native resolution of most games. It's part of building awareness about 4K across Sony's product line as much as anything. The next generation will do it better, and by PS6 hopefully 4K native titles at decent frame rates will be the norm.

This is a fallacy, 720p was absolutely the standard. Sub-720p and 1080p were outliers.

 

[lukeskymac]

'Uprendered' is not a thing. It's either upscaled or rendered. PS4K will not be rendering games at 4K unless they are super simple 2D games.

Let's not exaggerate. You can get roughly PS360 graphics with 4K@30fps with current PS4 hardware.

 

[mike4001_]

Are people still thinking there will be native 4K games in a 400 $ machine in 2016 ?

 

[Zabi]

Hmm. I was under the impression that the PS4 had always been able to output video at 4K. That was advertised about it initially.

Are people still thinking there will be native 4K games in a 400 $ machine in 2016 ?

It looks like people have moved past that and are now talking about upscaling.

 

[onQ123]

Hmm. I was under the impression that the PS4 had always been able to output video at 4K. That was advertised about it initially.



It looks like people have moved past that and are now talking about upscaling.

It's not up scaling

 

[foolishoptimist]

The PS4 is not powerful enough to render PS4-native games at 2160p. A PS4K is not going to be powerful enough to do it either. It's a technical impossibility at the current time to have hardware to do that, in a $399 box. My partner has a £3000 (almost) PC and can barely play The Division at 1440p at max settings and get 60fps. How do you propose the PS4K is going to do that, for $399 or less, in a console-sized box, with a 150w or lower power consumption, and controllable heat.

Wasn't Okami on PS3 rendered at ~1440 then scaled down to 1080?

Maybe PS4K will offer some level of supersampling over 1080 with dedicated scaling, which will benefit the 4k output.

 

[PLASTICA-MAN]

NX will be slighly more powerful than PS4: http://gamingbolt.com/nintendo-nx-m...handheld-better-performance-than-ps4-and-more

I see why Sony will release a PS4.5.

 

[Vashetti]

Wasn't Okami on PS3 rendered at ~1440 then scaled down to 1080?

Maybe PS4K will offer some level of supersampling over 1080 with dedicated scaling, which will benefit the 4k output.

Okami was a PS2 port, supposedly rendered at 4K and then downscaled to 1080p.

 

[omonimo]

NX will be slighly more powerful than PS4: http://gamingbolt.com/nintendo-nx-m...handheld-better-performance-than-ps4-and-more

I see why Sony will release a PS4.5.

Pffff. Yes of course. How not.

 

[foolishoptimist]

Okami was a PS2 port, supposedly rendered at 4K and then downscaled to 1080p.

My point is, it doesn't need to render at 4k to offer benefits to a 4k output over standard TV upscaling.

 

[Scrooged]

Let's not exaggerate. You can get roughly PS360 graphics with 4K@30fps with current PS4 hardware.

And who would make that game? People would laugh at a game with 360 fidelity graphics on their new PS4K. What's implied here is that no dev is going to bother with 4K resolution if it requires sacrificing that much detail. The high resolution is moot at that point.