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[Proelite]

"With this talk about the most powerful console ever I thought that the graphics would be a lot better than that. The gap between Neo and Scorpio is not that huge."

Do people consider the gap between Xb1 and Ps4 huge? That'll be approximately the same gap. Insignificant imo.

 

[Alpha Phoenix]

If Neo is not a generation beyond XboxOne/PS4, then Scorpio surely is not a generation beyond Neo from what we know so far.

From what we know so far it's only 50% more powerful. Anything else is speculation. If MS for instance was sure it was doing 12GB of RAM they'd be practically shouting it from the rooftops, same if Zen was assured. Instead they said 8 cores which is the current configuration. We simply don't know enough to make that assertion but from what we know both devices should be in a similar ballpark. There's no 4x gap between those systems.

Fair point. As I said, thinking of generations from a specs viewpoint no longer really means anything. While Scorpio is half again as powerful as Neo, neither console is a new 'generation', just a buffed up version of its respective predecessor.

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

Unless we get real specs from MS, everyone should take this 6TF most powerful console talk that's a year and a half away with a grain of salt. Currently with leaked specs we can calculate what NEO is, but not so much with MS. The talk of XB1 and how powerful it was was also a thing before official specs got released, then we were treading down the "power of the cloud" road soon after reveal. I don't deny that they can offer a 6TF machine easily in late 2017, but history has shown that MS likes to overpromise a bit when it comes to recent hardware.

Lol. A "history"? So they did that with the OG and 360 as well?

If anything, Sony has more history with hyperbole and other bullshittery before launch.

 

[Bsigg12]

Do people consider the gap between Xb1 and Ps4 huge? That'll be approximately the same gap. Insignificant imo.

I could argue a >1 teraflop delta is more significant than a ~500 gigaflop difference simply based on what the performance we've seen developers maintain with the PS4 vs the Xbox One.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Fair point. As I said, thinking of generations from a specs viewpoint no longer really means anything. While Scorpio is half again as powerful as Neo, neither console is a new 'generation', just a buffed up version of its respective predecessor.

True on that. It appears to be one large ecosystem now, not unlike the PC/Android/iOS.

 

[Bitch Pudding]

I could argue a >1 teraflop delta is more significant than a ~500 gigaflop difference simply based on what the performance we've seen developers maintain with the PS4 vs the Xbox One.

Even if the delta is 2 TF, you'd still need DF in most cases to identify the differences between the two. Curse you, diminishing returns! (no pun intended)

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

Do people consider the gap between Xb1 and Ps4 huge? That'll be approximately the same gap. Insignificant imo.

Huh?

1.8 - 1.3 = .5

6 - 4.2 = 1.8

1.8 - .5 = 1.3

Fair difference.

 

[Proelite]

Huh?

1.8 - 1.3 = .5

6 - 4.2 = 1.8

1.8 - .5 = 1.3

Fair difference.

What about 110 teraflops console and 120 teraflop console?

10 teraflops wow massive difference.

Xbox and ps2. 40 gflops difference. None-existent.

 

[bidguy]

even if you argue about diminishing returns and the gap is the same this is only taking gpu into factor

if neo has jaguar and scorpio has zen its a whole different beast

edit: if things come to fruition exactly how it looks like scorpio will be better in every possible way

more and faster ram,whole new gen of cpu,better gpu

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

What about 110 teraflops console and 120 teraflop console?

10 teraflops wow massive difference.

Xbox and ps2. 40 gflops difference. None-existent.

Am I missing something? It's kinda basic maths isn't it?

The difference between Scorpio and Neo is larger than the difference between Xbox One and PS4.

 

[Proelite]

Am I missing something? It's kinda basic maths isn't it?

The difference between Scorpio and Neo is larger than the difference between Xbox One and PS4.

Difference between 110 teraflops console and 120 teraflops console is larger than difference between Xbox 1 and Amiga. 120 console much better than 110. Xb1 not that much better than Amiga.

I assume you agree with that? It's basic math.

 

[El-Pistolero]

Shouldn't Microsoft to release the Scorpio around the same time as Neo? I'm so looking forward to it, and can't help feeling a bit annoyed over the late date.

Well, then, it would no longer be a 6 TF console, would it?

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

Difference between 110 teraflops console and 120 teraflops console is larger than difference between Xbox 1 and Amiga. 120 console much better than 110. Xb1 not that much better than Amiga.

I assume you agree with that? It's basic math.

Now you're not even making sense. Are you simply focusing on the numbers alone because I didn't put TF/GF at the end of my numbers?

So you're being disingenuous AND arguing semantics? Great foundation you have there.

 

[Outrun]

I cant wait for Scorpio.

Me and the wifey can play on separate machines.

 

[Noobcraft]

Difference between 110 teraflops console and 120 teraflops console is larger than difference between Xbox 1 and Amiga. 120 console much better than 110. Xb1 not that much better than Amiga.

I assume you agree with that? It's basic math.

My math could totally be wrong, but
6.0/4.2=1.429
1.8/1.3=1.385

Isn't the performance gap bigger between Scorpio and Neo than it is for PS4 and XB1 in terms of a ratio?

 

[Proelite]

Now you're not even making sense. Are you simply focusing on the numbers alone because I didn't put TF/GF at the end of my numbers?

So you're being disingenuous AND arguing semantics? Great foundation you have there.

I am applying your differential logic to cases where it fails to make sense to me.

Percentage difference covers all those cases and exists to make comparisons more meaningful.

My math could totally be wrong, but
6.0/4.2=1.429
1.8/1.3=1.385

Isn't the performance gap bigger between Scorpio and Neo than it is for PS4 and XB1 in terms of a ratio?

It is by ~4%.

 

[Salty Hippo]

Do people consider the gap between Xb1 and Ps4 huge? That'll be approximately the same gap. Insignificant imo.

If rumors are true the gap will be about 10% bigger than it currently is. And people sure think the current gap is insignificant, yep. That's exactly what I've read daily on GAF for the past 3 years.

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

I am applying your differential logic to cases where it fails to make sense to me.

Percentage difference covers all those cases and exists to make comparisons more meaningful.



It is by ~4%.

Why would percentages make more sense?

The difference between Xbox One and PS4 is half a gigaflop. The difference between Scorpio and Neo is almost triple that.

If rumors are true the gap will be about 10% bigger than it currently is. And people sure think the current gap is insignificant, yep. That's exactly what I've read daily on GAF for the past 3 years.

Exactly. I remember reading all sorts of stuff about how HUGE the gap is between Xbox One and PS4. Like 50% or something massive like that. Despite it only being a .5GF difference.

Now that there may be a 1.3TF difference, the gap is tiny now?

 

[leeh]

My math could totally be wrong, but
6.0/4.2=1.429
1.8/1.3=1.385

Isn't the performance gap bigger between Scorpio and Neo than it is for PS4 and XB1 in terms of a ratio?

Why are we just focusing on the GPU? If it does get Zen then we're talking a very big gap here.

 

[thelastword]

This is gold considering Sony's history pre-PS4.

Maybe they all do it minus Nintendo, (RIP Sega)....but I've never seen such hyperbole coming out from an xbox release prior to XB1's specs reveal. At least stories of Saddam buying PS2's in bulk to launch nukes came off the media/rumourmill and we all knew it was BS at the time, but I've never seen anything quite marketed to the tune of unlimited power when MS pitched it's cloud features and of course the engineers touting how balanced/efficient their system was when speaking about rops vs fillrate.

That same hyperbole is what I'm seeing here, especially that famous infomercial at E3 where devs were speaking of "the prettiest, most uncompressed pixels they've ever seen' and Spencer speaking about true 4k gaming. I can already see, that some back tracking will have to happen here.....to the tune of Aaron Greenberg's famous "you realize you will see every game in 1080p as your output right?"......

As I said, 6TF is a no brainer in 2017 farless late 2017, at least the PS2 had a cutting edge CPU with vector units and lots of bandwidth that made 60fps games easier to produce. At least the PS3 had another powerful CPU emanating from new technology behind heavy R&D a CPU that could also double up as a GPU. But so far MS has just said they've got the most powerful system to date in an infomercial. I can't wait till the real reveal, but I'm only going to get excited when I can peruse a spec sheet and read real details.

 

[Proelite]

Why would percentages make more sense?

The difference between Xbox One and PS4 is half a gigaflop. The difference between Scorpio and Neo is almost triple that.

Can you answer the following question:

1. Xbox and PS2. 40 gigaflop difference.
2. Xb1 and PS4. 500 gigaflop difference.
3. 110 teraflop console and 120 teraflop console. 10 teraflop difference.

In which case is the second console noticeably more powerful than the first console to the viewer, assuming running the same multiplat game.

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

Can you answer the following question:

1. Xbox and PS2.
2. Xb1 and PS4
3. 110 teraflop console and 120 teraflop console.

In which case is the second console noticeably more powerful than the first console to the viewer, assuming running the same multiplat game.

But your question has zero consistency and doesn't factor in way too many variables.

But doing my best to answer your loaded and deceiving question, the answer would be 3 or 1. But I don't know the numbers behind the PS2 and OG to have an idea.

There are also no consoles in existence at 110 and 120 where I can compare a multiplat.

edit. Ah you just edited while I was posting.

 

[Proelite]

But your question has zero consistency and doesn't factor in way too many variables.

But doing my best to answer your loaded and deceiving question, the answer would be 3 or 1. But I don't know the numbers behind the PS2 and OG to have an idea.

There are also no consoles in existence at 110 and 120 where I can compare a multiplat.

Okay then, going by historical data. GPU only.

Case 1. PS2 vs Xbox. ~40 gigaflop difference.
Case 2. 360 vs ps3. ~160 gigaflop difference.
Case 3. Xb1 vs ps4. ~500 gigaflop difference.

I am guessing since the difference is biggest for case 3 then the graphical gap between xb1 and ps4 is the biggest out of all to viewers. It's more than 10 times bigger than the first case.

 

[wachie]

My math could totally be wrong, but
6.0/4.2=1.429
1.8/1.3=1.385

Isn't the performance gap bigger between Scorpio and Neo than it is for PS4 and XB1 in terms of a ratio?

Correct math.

PS4 GPU is 40.6% better in terms of peak floating point performance.
Scorpio GPU is (with 6TF) 42.9% better in terms of peak floating point performance.

We don't know other things like memory bandwidth (gap is smaller between Scorpio and Neo), ROPs, TMUs, tri rates, ACE, other fixed-function hardware etc.

The most significant handicap in the PS4 vs Xbox One gap comparison is the band-aid ESRAM solution. There will be nothing of that level of handicap for the Neo.

 

[Salty Hippo]

Why would percentages make more sense?

The difference between Xbox One and PS4 is half a gigaflop. The difference between Scorpio and Neo is almost triple that.



Exactly. I remember reading all sorts of stuff about how HUGE the gap is between Xbox One and PS4. Like 50% or something massive like that. Despite it only being a .5GF difference.

Now that there may be a 1.3TF difference, the gap is tiny now?

I think using percentages makes more sense than pure FLOPS. But the fact is that the gap is already not insignificant (according to most hardcore gamers), and will increase by more than 10%. It's not a ton, but it will be even more significant than it is today. 45% more GPU power is nothing to sneeze at.

 

[Proelite]

Correct math.


PS4 GPU is 40.6% better in terms of peak floating point performance.
Scorpio GPU is (with 6TF) 42.9% better in terms of peak floating point performance.

We don't know other things like memory bandwidth (gap is smaller between Scorpio and Neo), ROPs, TMUs, tri rates, ACE, other fixed-function hardware etc.

Considering that Xb1 multiplats have fared pretty well recently given the ~40% disadvantage, I expect the Neo to be in similar boat from purely graphics POV.

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

Considering that Xb1 multiplats have fared pretty well recently given the ~40% disadvantage, I expect the Neo to be in similar boat from purely graphics POV.

So not only is the difference between Scorpio and Neo bigger than the difference between One and PS4, but it's a 42% difference?

So remind me why it's insignificant? Because if threads over the last few years on GAF are to believed, the difference between One and PS4 is significant.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Exactly. I remember reading all sorts of stuff about how HUGE the gap is between Xbox One and PS4. Like 50% or something massive like that. Despite it only being a .5GF difference.

Now that there may be a 1.3TF difference, the gap is tiny now?

No. Some people are saying the gap is about the same, % wise from what we know at the moment.

And who is this concensus? It is quite clear there are two different camps for 3 years. The "lot more", and "not that big" camps.

Correct math.

PS4 GPU is 40.6% better in terms of peak floating point performance.
Scorpio GPU is (with 6TF) 42.9% better in terms of peak floating point performance.

We don't know other things like memory bandwidth (gap is smaller between Scorpio and Neo), ROPs, TMUs, tri rates, ACE, other fixed-function hardware etc.

The most significant handicap in the PS4 vs Xbox One gap comparison is the band-aid ESRAM solution. There will be nothing of that level of handicap for the Neo.

How I understand it so far.

 

[Pooya]

I think using percentages makes more sense than pure FLOPS. But the fact is that the gap is already not insignificant (according to most hardcore gamers), and will increase by more than 10%. It's not a ton, but it will be even more significant than it is today. 45% more GPU power is nothing to sneeze at.

As far as real world performance go, you can do a hell of whole lot more with an extra ~2TFlops than you can do with 0.5 more. Things don't scale linearly exactly to use percentages. With that much more computation, it suddenly becomes practical to use new techniques and effects etc, it opens up new possibilities, not just scaling things up and down that now we see with ps4/x1. It's not that simple, remains to be seen how devs end up using it and which direction they take, but it's possible.

 

[Salty Hippo]

It's a 45% difference.

PS4 is 1.8. Neo will be x2.3, which is 4.14. 6 is 45% more than 4.14.

Current gap is 40%. Going from 40% to 45% makes for a 12,5% gap increase.

As far as real world performance go, you can do a hell of whole lot more with an extra ~2TFlops than you can do with 0.5 more. Things don't scale linearly exactly to use percentages. With that much more computation, it suddenly becomes practical to use new techniques and effects etc, it opens up new possibilities, not just scaling things up and down that now we see ps4/x1. It's not that simple, remains to be seen how devs end up using it and which direction they take, but it's possible.

Interesting point. I guess time will tell.

 

[wachie]

Considering that Xb1 multiplats have fared pretty well recently given the ~40% disadvantage, I expect the Neo to be in similar boat from purely graphics POV.

"Fared pretty well" is a loose term that will vary from person to person. I expect Neo to "fare better" considering devs won't have to jump through circus hoops to get a decent version out.

 

[Proelite]

So not only is the difference between Scorpio and Neo bigger than the difference between One and PS4, but it's a 42% difference?

So remind me why it's insignificant? Because if threads over the last few years on GAF are to believed, the difference between One and PS4 is significant.

Not to a neutral camp who has being consoling gaming since OG Xbox.

Heck even some PS3 multiplats compared to 360 were worse than Xb1 compared to Ps4 from what I remember.

Black ops:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-call-of-duty-black-ops-faceoff

 

[DeepEnigma]

It's a 45% difference.

PS4 is 1.8. Neo will be x2.3, which is 4.14. 6 is 45% more than 4.14.

Current gap is 40%. Going from 40% to 45% makes for a 12,5% gap increase.



Interesting point. I guess time will tell.

It's 1.84 for the record.

 

[Salty Hippo]

It's 1.84 for the record.

Oh, I thought it was a round 1.8. Then it's a bit less, yes.

 

[onQ123]

Scorpio is well beyond even Neo in terms of raw specs. You could indeed argue that Scorpio is a generation ahead of Neo.

Regardless, the word 'generation' no longer seems to have any meaning in this regard. Both Neo and Scorpio are attempts at moving away from the whole generation thing.

LOL you do know that the difference is about the same as the difference between PS4 & Xbox One right?

Flop wise anyway but we don't even know the full specs of Scorpio just 6TF & 320GB/s memory.

 

[Conduit]

Okay then, going by historical data. GPU only.

Case 1. PS2 vs Xbox. ~40 gigaflop difference.
Case 2. 360 vs ps3. ~160 gigaflop difference.
Case 3. Xb1 vs ps4. ~500 gigaflop difference.

I am guessing since the difference is biggest for case 3 then the graphical gap between xb1 and ps4 is the biggest out of all to viewers. It's more than 10 times bigger than the first case.

Nope! It's ~70 GFLOPS difference in X360 favor. ~240 Xenos vs. ~170 RSX.

 

[Proelite]

Nope! It's ~70 GFLOPS difference in X360 favor. ~240 Xenos vs. ~170 RSX.

400 gigaflops for RSX according to Nvidia. *snickers*

 

[Conduit]

400 gigaflops for RSX according to Nvidia. *snickers*

Well, guy from Nvidia isn't sure it is 400 or 176. He had to google it. So....

https://twitter.com/renderpipeline/status/402819657490759680

 

[SenjutsuSage]

LOL you do know that the difference is about the same as the difference between PS4 & Xbox One right?

Flop wise anyway but we don't even know the full specs of Scorpio just 6TF & 320GB/s memory.

If it's Zen vs Jaguar, the difference is most certainly not the same. And if the chip is Vega that is yet another key difference, although who really knows if the difference between Vega and Polaris will be as big as what's expected of Zen vs Jaguar. I don't expect Neo games to somehow look like trash in comparison, but the difference isn't the same if there is such a gap in terms of CPU architecture between the two consoles. And there may even be a 4GB memory difference between the two systems also if current speculation ends up being true.

 

[onQ123]

If it's Zen vs Jaguar, the difference is most certainly not the same. And if the chip is Vega that is yet another key difference, although who really knows if the difference between Vega and Polaris will be as big as what's expected of Zen vs Jaguar. I don't expect Neo games to somehow look like trash in comparison, but the difference isn't the same if there is such a gap in terms of CPU architecture between the two consoles. And there may even be a 4GB memory difference between the two systems also if current speculation ends up being true.

I said flop wise because we don't know the other specs yet.

 

[Bitch Pudding]

this thread lately



No one doubts Scorpio multiplats will outperform their PS4 Neo counterparts, But I would indeed argue that the benefits are not as big as to justify a whole year of additonal waiting time + higher price.

Usually, within a "normal" generation, we then would argue that the exclusives look much better on the faster one. But with Scorpio only being a machine that is supposed to run XBOX One games (in native 4k or in 2k but with some bells and whistles) that won't happen anytime soon.

 

[onQ123]

this thread lately



No one doubts Scorpio multiplats will outperform their PS4 Neo counterparts, But I would indeed argue that the benefits are not as big as to justify a whole year of additonal waiting time + higher price.

Usually, within a "normal" generation, we then would argue that the exclusives look much better on the faster one. But with Scorpio only being a machine that is supposed to run XBOX One games (in native 4k or in 2k but with some bells and whistles) that won't happen anytime soon.

I actually think Scorpio has the best release date because everyone isn't ready to make that jump to a more powerful console yet so the later the better so you can have better specs when people are ready to move on. but at the same time Neo could come at the right price & flood the market & not even give Scorpio a fighting chance when it does come out like PS2 did,

 

[Bitch Pudding]

I actually think Scorpio has the best release date because everyone isn't ready to make that jump to a more powerful console yet so the later the better so you can have better specs when people are ready to move on. but at the same time Neo could come at the right price & flood the market & not even give Scorpio a fighting chance when it does come out like PS2 did,

This just feels like a huge missed opportunity. Releasing a "monster" of a new console and then tell people its reason d'être is to play XBOX One games but in 4k. This feels like selling a Ferrari with a non-deactivatable 70 mph speed limiter. Especially since Sony does basically exactly the same with PS4 Neo, just earlier, cheaper and not as powerful.

The enthusiasts and tech-fans who'll eventually buy Scorpio are ready for a new generation anyhow.

 

[c0de]

Why would percentages make more sense?

The difference between Xbox One and PS4 is half a gigaflop. The difference between Scorpio and Neo is almost triple that.

We shouldn't concentrate on the GPU in this case - the CPU will most likely be way better than whatever revision of a ps4 can offer.

 

[Alpha Phoenix]

LOL you do know that the difference is about the same as the difference between PS4 & Xbox One right?

Flop wise anyway but we don't even know the full specs of Scorpio just 6TF & 320GB/s memory.

I'm aware of the difference, thanks.

Scorpio is also rumored to sport 12GB of RAM which would be another advantage.

 

[c0de]

This thread shows what could be always observed.
People buying the console with worse hardware will argue differences are not that big, people with the better hardware will make fun of the other people because of their mental gymnastics and exaggerate the power of their console.

 

[anothertech]

We shouldn't concentrate on the GPU in this case - the CPU will most likely be way better than whatever revision of a ps4 can offer.

This right here is the kicker.

Nobody knows the CPU solutions for either. But we all know the current cpu's are bottlenecks. These could be the real tie breakers in regards to fps and open worlds.

GPU wise 4.23 vs 6 will be noticeable but really not by much more than this gen.

RAM wise they will also be closer than current gen.

CPU though, that could make for some interesting comparison.

If Neo goes jag+ and Scorpio goes zen, there could be some major differences performance wise, but price will favor Neo absolutely. If both stick with jag+, the bottlenecks will be there for both but the prices will stay low. If both go Zen, Neo might price itself over the market more than Scorpio, but the performance on both would be incredible.

I feel like the first is most probable, unless Sony really pulls some magic out of a hat.

 

[onQ123]

This right here is the kicker.

Nobody knows the CPU solutions for either. But we all know the current cpu's are bottlenecks. These could be the real tie breakers in regards to fps and open worlds.

GPU wise 4.23 vs 6 will be noticeable but really not by much more than this gen.

RAM wise they will also be closer than current gen.

CPU though, that could make for some interesting comparison.

If Neo goes jag+ and Scorpio goes zen, there could be some major differences performance wise, but price will favor Neo absolutely. If both stick with jag+, the bottlenecks will be there for both but the prices will stay low. If both go Zen, Neo might price itself over the market more than Scorpio, but the performance on both would be incredible.

I feel like the first is most probable, unless Sony really pulls some magic out of a hat.

Neo is just the same CPU as the PS4 clocked higher unless things have changed since the papers was sent out.

 

[Dredd97]

I like the idea of scorpio... but I'll pass

with the money I'll just upgrade my GPU / CPU and enjoy the best versions of all the multiplats.. sure I may miss out on some exclusives, but with MS going play anywhere what would be the need? (*if you have a beefy enough computer to start with*)

 

[onQ123]

I'm aware of the difference, thanks.

Scorpio is also rumored to sport 12GB of RAM which would be another advantage.

If you're aware that the difference in flops is about the same as the difference between PS4 & Xbox One why would you say this?

Scorpio is well beyond even Neo in terms of raw specs. You could indeed argue that Scorpio is a generation ahead of Neo.