This thread is straight up Pleasantville right now.
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A polite discourse amongst friends on the importance of MP-elements in No Man's Sky
- Thread starter flkraven
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This thread is straight up Pleasantville right now.
Graphics Horse
Member
Make sure to check what happens when you jump to another system. I see no reason to be constantly sending a position for multiplayer reasons until the server decides to pair you up with someone else entering your solar system tbh. (Should such a thing exist)
Also check what user data is coming in, either the entire ever growing user database for the contents of a galaxy is downloaded and updated to everyone, OR you only get sent any relevant data to things that are relatively nearby, which would require telling the server what system/galactic coordinates you started in or jump to.
If you think about the logistics of doing any sort of shared-space multiplayer in this game, it really starts to sink in why it isn't there.
In a typical multi-player game, you're dealing with a relatively small space with static, known collision planes. You can get the map/zone + X + Y + Z + heading + speed coordinates accurately enough in a very small amount of data. When you're talking about a playspace the size of several planets and space between them, the X+Y+Z coordinates are going to require a much larger packet to be accurate at the speed/scale of a single human. Given that planets are round, you also need to transmit a value of which direction is "up" to the object. This is going to be a floating-point value which again is a larger amount of data than you'd need in a situation where "up" is the same everywhere. You also don't have the ability to "cheat" by calling a planet a playspace and using the planet's surface as a coordinate map, since the procedural nature of planet generation means that the server won't know where the planet is without generating the seed.
Flying in space is a bit more doable at ship scale, since the values don't need to be as precise to work, but on-foot, the "tick" packets would be absolutely server crushing given the number of people playing the game.
I mean, it's not an unsolvable problem, and maybe it's something they can do later once the server load drops, but given that no MMO launch has ever been able to handle the relatively small amount of player position data at launch, this game would seem to make it an impossibility.
That said, they should still just come out and say that rather than going radio silent to protect their, "anything is possible" marketing campaign.
In a typical multi-player game, you're dealing with a relatively small space with static, known collision planes. You can get the map/zone + X + Y + Z + heading + speed coordinates accurately enough in a very small amount of data. When you're talking about a playspace the size of several planets and space between them, the X+Y+Z coordinates are going to require a much larger packet to be accurate at the speed/scale of a single human. Given that planets are round, you also need to transmit a value of which direction is "up" to the object. This is going to be a floating-point value which again is a larger amount of data than you'd need in a situation where "up" is the same everywhere. You also don't have the ability to "cheat" by calling a planet a playspace and using the planet's surface as a coordinate map, since the procedural nature of planet generation means that the server won't know where the planet is without generating the seed.
Flying in space is a bit more doable at ship scale, since the values don't need to be as precise to work, but on-foot, the "tick" packets would be absolutely server crushing given the number of people playing the game.
I mean, it's not an unsolvable problem, and maybe it's something they can do later once the server load drops, but given that no MMO launch has ever been able to handle the relatively small amount of player position data at launch, this game would seem to make it an impossibility.
That said, they should still just come out and say that rather than going radio silent to protect their, "anything is possible" marketing campaign.
Here's some tech details, if anybody is interested:
Traffic goes via an Azure CloudApp (yes, they're hosting a Sony thing on Microsoft Azure).
Address: 40.84.59.174
Aliases: pc-nms-auth.nomanssky.com
prodpc-nmso-auth.azurewebsites.net
waws-prod-bn1-011.vip.azurewebsites.windows.net
(nomanssky.com was registered by Sean in 2013).,
Traffic is over SSL, if you want to intercept you need to MitM it using CA forgery.
They track all users who start the game (which isn't bad). Periodically they shoot your Discoveries up in the background in batch transfers. There's a profanity filter on naming, haha. I've seen no player movement traffic at all either from me or other players on either platform. Very very little traffic is passed, you can go long periods with nothing happening network wise.
Traffic goes via an Azure CloudApp (yes, they're hosting a Sony thing on Microsoft Azure).
Address: 40.84.59.174
Aliases: pc-nms-auth.nomanssky.com
prodpc-nmso-auth.azurewebsites.net
waws-prod-bn1-011.vip.azurewebsites.windows.net
(nomanssky.com was registered by Sean in 2013).,
Traffic is over SSL, if you want to intercept you need to MitM it using CA forgery.
They track all users who start the game (which isn't bad). Periodically they shoot your Discoveries up in the background in batch transfers. There's a profanity filter on naming, haha. I've seen no player movement traffic at all either from me or other players on either platform. Very very little traffic is passed, you can go long periods with nothing happening network wise.
irrotational
Member
Amazing stuff! So it's not reporting your location each time you jump to a new system to check if anyone else is in that system?
This seems bad...
XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
Not that surprising really, it would most likely end up being either Azure, AWS, or Google.
Audioboxer
Member
We sacrificed MP for a profanity filter. I guess it was fucking worth it.
Not really relevant to this thread but the snake tree thing from TotalBiscuit's video on the PC performance I have seen on 2 different planets in my own game.
BaldusCattus
Neo Member
Out of curiosity, what's your in-game connection status (at the bottom of the 'Discoveries' page in the pause menu)? On PS4, mine has spent most of the last few days saying I've "lost connection", with only fleeting periodic connectivity.
UncleSporky
Member
I am actually pretty interested in this.
At one point someone was incredulous that you'd be able to figure out anything from the packets because it would be encrypted. Is this just a pretty educated guess because no data is being sent as you move around, or is whatever data you do see unencrypted or decipherable?
Did you check what happens when you jump to a new system, in the off chance that maybe it tracks that, and when another player jumps to the same system that's when the multi would kick in?
Elite Dangerous is very, very similar to No Man's Sky in a lot of ways, and it handles multi just fine. Massive procedural galaxy, massive procedural planets to land on. Just a random video I searched up with some people messing around on SRVs on a planet's surface. Another random video of 50+ player ships meeting up in space.
Have you monitored while warping from one star system to another? I'd be curious to see if there's any tracking data sent at that point.
You see the same stuff with slightly different colors everywhere.
If you watch a couple streams and look at screenshots, you see that everything is the same put together out of like 10 different things.
I've deliberately made sure I'm online during capture, both in game and I can see the traffic. But you're right, the server goes offline constantly. You can test it yourself by visiting https://ps-nms-auth.nomanssky.com/ - if you get a blank page, it's responding. If it times out, they're down again.
Edit: I just refunded my Steam purchase, the framerate is all over the place on my gaming PC and I'm experiencing stability woes. I still play on PS4 though, and love the game so I'll be around.
TheChewyWaffles
Member
VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
Hold up. Didn't they blame a bunch of issues on server load? Is such small amounts of information really able to overload their servers?
What that other poster said about Elite Dangerous, but also this game doesn't have a true free galaxy. Every solar system is a closed off box and you can't fly from system to system, only warp. You can't even fly towards your system's moon. So it's way less of a technical problem.
I don't know how Elite is coded, but given that it's - to my knowledge - 150 or so star systems, the planet surfaces can be cheated by making each a much simpler coordinate map. That option isn't likely available when you're dealing with the number of star systems present in NMS. It doesn't seem like planets are discrete spaces in NMS. They're just piles of voxels in a giant box.
As I said, ship-scale stuff is a lot easier for many reasons, due to the combination of scale, and the lack of need to worry about placing things on a surface.
I'm aware, but placing things in that box at a human scale and syncing them is still a problem. It's also a giant amount of data to ingest and track for a very tiny amount of potential payoff. It's a lot of bandwidth cost for almost no payoff in the game. Doing so would be irresposible.
Elite Dangerous has about 100 billion solar systems. Each with multiple planets. About 60% of planets you can land on. And it's a freely open galaxy.
This game has each solar system boxed off. So there is no free 3D coordinates in space. Only your coordinate in your solar system.
They sold millions of copies, it appears. Each player gets a UID. It's also the 5th biggest concurrent title on PC right now since, er, 2012? Considering they've built their own server side infrastructure using Azure and they're a 12 person crew, you know, I think it's holding up really well.
Another technical bit, if the server is unavailable when you've uploaded a Discovery, it queues it and retries once a minute. It's smart, but also probably DDoS themselves a little.
Also, I want to give them credit for how well the game client copes with server being down. UI wise, the user has no idea unless they pause the game. The client just queues, they don't rely on server response for anything in game at all.
I wasn't aware that Elite was that big, cool.
A solar system box is still a 3D space. It's not "open space" in the way you're talking about, but it is still a 3D space.
Anyway, my primary point was imagine the logistical cost of collecting and processing all that data for basically no in-game payoff other than a tiny handful of players. To do so would be actually kind of insane.
VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
Yeah, I know nothing about how that stuff works I was just curious. That makes sense.
TheSpoiler
Member
So their infrastructure probably couldn't even do multiplayer, lobbies included?
WTF?
Elite Dangerous has a 400+ BILLION star system full sized galaxy with full 1:1 sized planets. each star system can have multiple STARS in it with countless planets.
And in Elite, you CAN fly to another star system in "super cruise" faster than light speed and it can take weeks. People have done it. The problem is that it will not load that star system proper until you hyperjump because only during hyperjump does the game pull the current data of the system and builds it.
Apparently I misread or misheard or misremembered something from months or years ago. I stand corrected. Why are you yelling?
I ran the game with debugger and disassembler attached, there's no UDP calls in the game. Basically, there isn't PVP multiplayer.
During the Elite beta, it was 150 systems. So don't feel bad. I think No Man's Sky does a lot of things better than Elite, it is far more accessible for one.
Graphics Horse
Member
Nvm
UncleSporky
Member
I bet you are thinking of Star Citizen which IIRC is supposed to have 150 hand crafted systems.
It's true that there isn't a lot of stuff on Elite planets, but I think it's oversimplifying to just call them piles of voxels. Many planets have complex bases on them, sometimes more than one, with events and other objects to be found on the surface like wrecked ships with passenger pods in need of rescue, and recently some bizarre alien artifacts that seem to be leading up to something ominous for the future.
I was actually calling NMS planets piles of voxels.
But anyway, I've said all I need to say about that, and I think others have as well. I apologize for the thread derail.
UncleSporky
Member
Oh somehow I read "discrete spaces LIKE in NMS."
TheSpoiler
Member
what about that 'scan for other players' Sean mentioned in a tweet? or is that something coming supposedly in a patch/update?
you don't scan for players, you scan for their discoveries, so the planets they named
VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
That same tweet was about the patch that it was supposedly in. I have no idea if it is or isn't.
Krappadizzle
Member
What are you basing all of this off of?
You can play Planetside 2 with 1000 people and that game runs fine.
I'm about as sure as you that you don't know what you are talking about.
well the way he words it is very vague if that is the case. But not surprised anymore.
"Sean Murray ‏@NoMansSky Aug 10
We added a 'scan for other players' in the Galactic Map to try to encourage this happening. We wanted it to happen - but the first day?"
also alludes to it being actual players because the last line is referencing the 2 players meeting up? But considering whats been going on, its probably what you mentioned. Is the feature in the actual game now?
runnin_blue
Banned
Anyone think they might stealth patch in some rudimentary multiplayer and then claim it was there all along? Lol
Iced_Eagle
Member
As someone who works in services, it's a bit more complicated than seeing the amount of data you upload.
Do they have the servers do any sort of computations on the data before giving a response? For example, if the client makes a call, and the server then does a direct sql query / insert, then you can easily have a sql bottleneck which can cause all sorts of problems.
What about calls which get data? Again, it's all going to be hitting the same data stores whether you're get'ing or retrieving. I'm sure doing a get also does some computation to only return discoveries of things around you, so they need to run that calculation so they don't return the entire dataset of 18 quintillion planets, each with up to 10 animals / plants or whatever.
Finally you need to look at the entire user base en masse. How many requests per second are the servers handling? Even with small data sets, if you have like 1 million people sending things once every few seconds, it ends up being pretty significant in terms of traffic.
Moon_frogger
Member
So sick of this. The unlikely part was the ammount of galaxies and distance between players. Redditors of course solved that in less than a day. We all knew it would be possible, even more likely on the fringes of the universe and then in the centre when people reach it. And yes, the chance of randomly bumping into another player, A PROMISED FEATURE, was a very compelling twist that in all honestly Would have helped this game Elevate past its ho hum survival crafter trappings.
If people dont "discover" MP before a patch gets put out it'd be hard not to draw this conclusion
Well if its broken they would need a patch to fix it so that really proves nothing. A patch came in hot, and for something unlikely let alone not a main selling point it seems likely it is less tested than other portions of the game.
TheChewyWaffles
Member
Hydrogen Bluebird
Member
Okay, so I'm really interested in playing this game but I'm worried if my 3rd world internet will hold up. Is around 3 mbps down okay for me to play this without any significant slowdown or lag?
TheChewyWaffles
Member
You don't need any internet
Great work. It sucks that this is how we need to answer the question, but great work nonetheless.
Inviusx
Member
Well guys it looks like the PC version hasn't revealed anything we didn't already know. Its probably time we close the book on this one.
No Mans Sky has no multiplayer outside of shared discoveries. You cannot see other players.
Despite being told multiple times that this feature would exist, it doesn't. However MP is only 1 feature of many that appeared to be in No Mans Sky that didn't make the cut.
What we are left with is a game that only faintly resembles what we were shown in media prior to launch.
Game over man, game over.
No Mans Sky has no multiplayer outside of shared discoveries. You cannot see other players.
Despite being told multiple times that this feature would exist, it doesn't. However MP is only 1 feature of many that appeared to be in No Mans Sky that didn't make the cut.
What we are left with is a game that only faintly resembles what we were shown in media prior to launch.
Game over man, game over.
TheSpoiler
Member
I wonder if news outlets will conduct their own research. Probably not.
Hydrogen Bluebird
Member
Gaf has done it for most of them it seems.
Most likely another one of Sean Murray's "exaggerations".
I noticed that too. It's hugely disappointing. On the bright side, I've become very interested in Elite. I think I'll give that a shot one day.
runnin_blue
Banned
Going only on IGN Gamescoop and Giant Bomb podcasts, they seem to be defending it and shooting down most criticisms/concerns. Not surprised with IGN, as they were one of the biggest promoters of the game. Giant Bomb is a little surprising though. Obviously, that might change if they were recorded early in the piece.
Yeah, I mean, its been out seven hours, that seems long enough.
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