Mr_Appleby
Member
Cool, I wasn't sure. interesting explanation I found:
SpaceEngineer said:
Overall his method doesn't sound overly complex so I wonder why other devs have chosen to go with these hard resets required.
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Reddit Compiles Definitive List of All NMS Missing Features/False Marketing +Sources
- Thread starter 213372bu
- Start date
Cool, I wasn't sure. interesting explanation I found:
Overall his method doesn't sound overly complex so I wonder why other devs have chosen to go with these hard resets required.
I think this is the biggest lie. Sean has been throwing shade at other games for "faking" physics for years at this point, and like...welcome to No Mans Sky.
And Space Engine had been doing all of that for years before NMS was even announced.
Me too. It's crazy that so many cannot wrap their heads around the possibility that this could be a good game (it is, imo) and that the developers might have good intentions, but that ALL of that was shot to shit when Sean knowingly mislead people.
Is the game a piece of shit? No. It's ok. Is it what the spokesperson sold to us? Not even close. Not even in the same solar system (which in NMS terms means it doesn't even exist.)
Vegetable Lasagna
Member
Speculative!?
1. We have hard evidence in video/tweet form of Sean Murray slinging these statements as fact for years leading up to the release of No Man's Sky.
2. The NMS community noted these claims and have compared them with the final product.
Can you tell me exactly what is speculative about this process? I think we've pretty much determined that we haven't been told the truth. Lies? Mistruths? Confusion? Call it whatever you want. The only thing potentially speculative about this shit show right now is why Sean Murray, who seemed to have infinite free time to hype NMS up on twitter for years up to release, is now unwilling to do the same for his product and community. Oh wait, that is bordering on obvious to me.
If we were all working on speculation I feel like this whole mess would have been pretty easy to correct, but that's hard to do when the other side decided to oddly fall off the face of the planet only when his actions have come into question. But hey, if you find Sean's tweets entertaining you can still find him posting NMS hype, and vague patch notes on Twitter when he has found spare time in his schedule that's usually reserved for ignoring the community that made him and his studio millions at release based on his claims. Enjoy!
VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
Yo, Jacksinthe, shoot me a link to your streams over PM or something. You seem like the kind of dev I'd like to follow and support. Plus I'm just starting to learn how to code and am very interested in seeing how bigger projects are done.
Little nitpicks is not what I would call straight up lying about how your game is designed. You don't just patch in multiplayer or magically turn this skybox system into the fully functioning mathematically complex universe that was originally promised.
By all means, say you were willing to buy the game in spite of that. Let people know in relevent threads you enjoy what is actually there, but don't go fucking knighting in a thread specifically talking about these issues. Many of which are not small nitpicks. Don't act like people that are rightfully annoyed that a developer lied about their product are out of bounds for either feeling misled, voting with their wallets or just wanting to hold developers accountable in an industry that basically encourages and feeds into/rewards well delivered snake oil salesman tactics.
Sean could of easily sold this game as a $20 indie title that he marketed as his first attempt to realize a long held dream. Instead he chose to publicly and continually over promise and over sell.
It's a shame too because the loss of goodwill is probably going to destroy any chance at a well funded sequel that could of possibly achieved the goals he promised this go round and much more.
Frontier: Elite II, also had planets rotating and orbiting in real time. You could notice this when fast forwarded time. Again, that game came out in 1993 and was largely made by one person (so was Space Engine).
The two-week refund window on Steam pre-orders closes in 6.5 days, so possibly around then.
Absolutely. Murray knew he was lying on at least some of the stuff he said. There's no fucking chance a 15 person indie studio had a realistic, cutting edge physics engine in their game, for PS4, that had real time light refraction based on the elements in the atmosphere and the position of the sun as the planet rotated. It's absolutely fucking bullshit and Molyneux, himself, would be impressed by the claim. Murray a liar who knowingly made promises he couldn't deliver on. He deserves to be dragged by social and traditional media for it.
Krappadizzle
Gold Member
I've been in every thread that has discussed the lies/missing features, I'd be willing to be that a majority of those that are disappointed in how NMS turned out don't actually want to see it fail, I'd bet that many want to see it become what it should be. I certainly do. I don't hate the game, I just hate how it was promoted. I really want NMS to be great, but it just seems more like a tech demo/proof of concept. I'm willing to buy it, I WANT to buy it, but I want it to be what Sean Murray said it would be first, once it reaches that level I'm all in. If Elite
angerous beats it there first, well.... I'll go back to that. There is room for many more games in the space-genre, and frankly there's been a big lack of them since the PS1 era and I'm happy to see that the genre get a revival as of late.I'd get a Sensible Chuckle if this were the case.
It is.
Where do I defend the game or the developer?
This thread is rife with spiteful, personal attacks on Sean Murray mostly based on a narrative that he was lying i.e. knew better at the time he spoke. Which is a curious claim when cutting features for the final release is a thing as old as complex simulation games.
So if I tell you I'm making a game where you can catch 1,000 Pokemon and I even do an interview the day before it comes out saying, sure, there will definitely be 1,000 of them-- only for you to find out at launch that there are only 3, am I a liar? Or can I still say "Oh, things change. Games are hard"?
There has been a tone of "If you're not with us, you're against us" with a lot of the posters. Some can't understand how you could not be outraged unless you're a corporate apologist defending this lying traitor. I don't think I could ever get so emotionally invested to feel wronged or screwed over on this level, nor resort to joining a week-plus long campaign to abuse or defend said developer. Every time that I've stated that I thought the campaign was overblown, I've gotten responded to with the "how can you defend this?" line too. And yes, this is a campaign/crusade against HG at this point whether a bunch of people throwing personal insults at someone they don't know think so or not.
ultrazilla
Member
Remember that there's a two week period and/or 2 hour playtime limit. Most people have probably sunk 2 hours into the game and will not be eligible for a refund per Steam's refunding rules.
I was 15 minutes over a time frame for a refund and was denied.
So anyone thinking they can play the game for close to two weeks and ask for a refund at the end is setting themselves up for a big letdown.
Glass Shark
Banned
This would be all well and good if the game came stamped with a big "ALPHA" tag, launched in Early Access, and/or didn't cost $60. But this was sold as a full-price, finished game. That's not okay.
Krappadizzle
Gold Member
Most people know it's whichever comes first. Or at least I'd like to think they know that.
Main difference here that hello games had a post trying to take the hype a little and that no man's sky always was about a billion different procedurally generated planets. A promise they fully delivered on. It's not that no man's sky is vastly different from what was shown at e3 or those pillars videos i.e. the official communication.
I'm aware, and the refunds FAQ makes this abundantly clear. The point is that the window completely closes for everyone come two weeks after release, short of Valve making an exception in select cases. Regarding your particular refund request:
There's no guarantee you'll get a different response, but I'd say the chances are higher as at least you can be sure the reasons you gave will actually be read (if not at first, then definitely after you bump the ticket).
ultrazilla
Member
Yeah, I figured most people would know this by now but just a friendly reminder for those who may have not used the service.
They fully delivered on the main premise of the game, but there is documented evidence of numerous smaller issues, which should have been clarified pre-release. The hate is way overblown though.
That wasn't my question. I'm not talking about Hello Games and I'm not talking about what the game was "about", I'm talking about where the threshold is before you consider someone to be a liar. Deflecting into what Sean Murray and his team accomplished is completely besides the point.
Yeah, I figured most people would know this by now but just a friendly reminder for those who may have not used the service.
Fair enough. In your case, as per my edit, I'd try your luck with a support ticket. At worst you'll just be denied again, so there's no harm in giving it another shot, and at least you'll know that your request wasn't binned simply because of the excessive playtime.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
Puhleaseeeeeeeee. There's enthusiasm about possibilities and then there's making shit up about what's IN THE GAME ALREADY. Most developers are intelligent enough, or perhaps have enough integrity, to keep their conversations to possibilities, rather than resorting to throwing shade at other games claiming that their own game is doing things those games aren't.
Notch is a chimp and an asshole but he didn't run his mouth about feature-sets quite like Sean Murray. Even worse, comparing the $60 release of No Man's Sky to the discounted price-structure of Minecraft's early releases is just so incoherent that it boggles the mind.
Jax is a perennial shitposter, so I'm not convinced it's parody.
You wouldn't be able to tell if you pulsed or warped anyway...
This one is a hard choice. There seems to be a lot of hate. But the ot makes it look fun. Hmm...
Decisions.
VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
When you make sweeping accusations like this you had better put up or shut up IMO.
Why do you think there is hate? As I've stated before,
I think the thing that hurts the most out of all of this is that so many here think that people like us are out to get HG or something. Like we want to tear them to shreds. I can't express enough how that is just not true. However, as consumers we absolutely have to stick up for our rights first and foremost. Because trust me, people will take your money any flipping way they can.
What we are wanting here is higher standards for the gaming industry and a friendlier environment for consumers. Back when I was in private school, which I worked my butt off to pay my way through since my family was dirt poor, our school motto was to strive for excellence in all that we do. This lead me to think about that motto every day since. I slowly came to see how whenever I did my best and tried to meet higher standards, especially when doing things for others, the world could indeed change for the better because we would all have better things in the end. For example, businesses would stay in business longer because of the quality of their products and their customers would be happier because of it. That's all we want for HG and it would absolutely be better for them in the end.
But in order for this to happen we need to demand higher standards. Not just for NMS, but for any game that comes along regardless of whether or not they are indie. Because if we give the industry an inch they will take a mile. They will always be pushing against that line that we have drawn. Which is only going to keep being pushed farther back the more we let it and that is exactly what I see happening. By saying that, "it's no big deal. they need to make money to keep afloat," or, "But they are a small team!" and other similar arguments we are setting the precedent for the industry to follow suit because this is how much we will allow now.
I mean, ask yourselves, is this really the way you want every game to happen? Some people seem like they are ok with setting the precedent for more games to launch like NMS where it's ok if devs launch their games at AAA prices with little meaningful content but in it's place so many false promises. Or even just gaming campaigns where the devs are so vague they could have run for office.
That's not how I want the industry to become and it really doesn't have to be that way. I know that it sucks that HG is the one stuck in the crosshairs but you have to start somewhere. I mean, how frigging cool would it be if more and more people started to call for HG to speak out and it was HG themselves who took that first step to setting the precedent for being upfront and honest towards the consumers and striving to reach higher standards in this industry. That IMO would solidify their reputation beyond what NMS will ever be able to do. In just doing that and sticking to it, they could reach the levels of respect that CDProjekt and the handful of others have who also IMO strive for this standard.
If they had been honest about their mistakes before launch their reputation would still be way more in tact than it is today and a lot of their former fan base would have respected them even more for being honest.
Detractors would have had much less fuel to use as fodder. At this point HG have poisoned their own well and that sucks for them because it's the one they are going to be drinking from for a long time.
Thing is that for whatever reason a lot of money centric people, investors and the like, don't take into count is long term loyal fan base because for them it's all about money right now as fast as they can have it.
Thing is that your reputation and the following that it garners are incredibly important for indies and any start up for that matter. Why? Because you will misstep. It is only a matter of time. Your loyal fan baste whom you have been honest and open with are the ones who are going to keep you afloat in that time of crisis. They are the ones who will be the first to forgive, they will be the ones who will be out there fighting for you in the trenches and they will be the ones who will be there with you on your next endeavor.
All of this is exactly what I was hoping they would avoid. I saw this coming if they stayed silent and it's the second biggest reason I joined this "movement" if you will. The first biggest being consumer rights and raising the bar/standards that the we let the industry meet for us.
So, I think most people are angry at the entire situation and the very real possibility that if this issue isn't pressed to some sort of resolution that there will not be enough of an example made and it will just keep repeating itself over and over again instead of hopefully setting the bar back up a little higher. And, yes, I couldn't fault people for being hateful towards someone whom is contributing to the dark side of the industry that they love and giving it a bad name and also whom it seems has taken their money and run, but I also don't see that as being the bulk of the sentiment here like you seem to think either. However, IMO this sentiment is only going to keep getting worse the longer they keep quiet.
In response to
Where absolutely nothing was said in defense of the game, just the original poster that was quoted 2 posts before that. Yet 00ich was jumped on. I can find you more if you feel that it's somehow relevant. Those are on this very page(100ppp). This isn't the only place on the internet discussing it, and also not the only thread this forum has had. I am not playing either side of the fence really, and this is a forum for open discussion. Having an emotional stake in the matter clouds objectivity. If you need me to go find quotes that can be taken as insults/attacks on him as a person to satisfy the "abuse" portion that you have underlined, then you haven't been paying attention to the conversation much.
I personally feel the fact that the term hate(and is apt to some of the responses) can even be used in this situation is mind boggling to me. For one, I have never stated that every single poster has been that way, just that a lot have.
I realize that not everyone is raging like Jacksinthe. Since you gave me a bit of background on yourself, here's a small bit on me. I grew up pretty solidly lower-middle class to middle-class. I ended up getting a full ride to University from football and academics(I could have chosen either and had it completely paid for). I blew all of that on partying and playing Devil May Cry 3/Gran Turismo 4 instead of going to class. I dropped out, and got kicked out of the house by my parents. From there, I lived in a 2 bedroom apartment with 5 other people to try to make ends meet. I slept on the floor in the corner of the kitchen, and worked 2 full time jobs for months to try to turn my life around. I did a lot of volunteer work with inner city kids after that, as I also learned that hard work can make everything better.
I spend probably 70% of my free time away from work, wife and son playing, discussing or researching video games. This hobby is a significant portion of my life, as it seems to be of yours. I am in complete agreement that this particular issue shouldn't be taken lying down if people so feel compelled. I, however, feel the level of emotional investment sent HG's way is excessive, and personal insults. Again, looking at the greater argument, not even just this one thread(though attacks like "scammer" and "bare-footed hipster" are presented here), and some people have lost their minds over this game. Also, my stance on this game could be coloring my feelings for this whole ordeal. I never cared that much about No Man's Sky, heck, I don't get emotionally attached to very many videogames(products) to begin with. I didn't have some high hopes that this developer, that only made Joe Danger before, was somehow going to blow the whole industry away......the likes of which has only happened a few times in gaming history. That could possibly be why I don't feel personally hurt as it seems some are taking it.
You quoted me, yet you're putting forth a lot of discussion points about arguments that I've never had and stances that I've never taken. I understand quite well economics on a more than basic level, but this studio hasn't given me a reason to care about them being successful, to be brutally honest. I have no horse in the race with what their investors do or don't want, and investors have a history of being very uninformed in this industry(see: Nintendo/Niantic). Deception on this level is a rarity, so a one off from a tiny developer doesn't foreshadow some huge paradigm shift in the industry to make this the norm.
If the words that I typed were read literally instead of trying to grasp at what you think I mean by them, then you'd see that I think this is an issue, just not one that deserves a response on this level. I obviously don't have numbers of threads/posts on hand, but my feeling is that this has gotten to the level of practices such as online passes, sparse season passes, and others which are much scummier, and with much further reaching consequences.
Anyway, I'm going to take my own usual advice and install that tool that lets me filter threads and stay completely out of NMS threads. There is little to be gained for me here, and everything seems to just be going round and round. If you would like any more posts to back up what I've said, then feel free to PM me, as I probably won't be returning here.
Pestilence11
Member
One thing I don't remember being mentioned is if the two players that met up could see each other's terrain deformation.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
I seem to remember them not seeing that. Uploaded names and shit, yes, terrain no. Maybe someone else has the video to confirm.
Pestilence11
Member
I figured that was the case because I read/heard it before, just wanted confirmation.
Unrelated edit: I hope they expand the usefulness of the galactic map, specifically where friends and zooming is involved, since that's what was originally planned.
mcz117chief
Member
The fact that people still defend him and say that they got "exactly what we expected" and that it's our fault that we dig too much into this and make up our own fantasies about the game. I have a friend who says that it's my fault that I think the game underdelivered because he likes it and that means that the game is fine.
"I love the game so you are wrong!" basically.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
not sure if its been pointed out already, but i'm noticing some stuff they've removed for the better though -- you dont have to go to a beacon to upload your discoveries, you dont need to go to a building to save stuff
one of the questions also was "are there npcs in the game" and he says "no" -- that's strange
one of the questions also was "are there npcs in the game" and he says "no" -- that's strange
Yeah thanks for adding that dismissive non-statement to the discussion.
I'm glad you are enjoying the game, but that doesn't necessarily translate in everyone else having to as well. People have their right to be upset about being excited and later disappointed over something that the developer has been talking up only to be now going completely radio silent over it. People get hyped over games for different reasons, and I guess maybe the stuff people got excited about that now isn't in the game wasn't on your radar, but it certainly was for others.
Yet you are here telling people to chill over these "nit picks" just because they aren't an issue to you.
They said they were using brand new technology to procedurally generate infinite content, which is why they claimed they would achieve grand things with a relatively small team.
BouncyFrag
Member
I'd like to see an 'astronauts react to NMS' video.
Pestilence11
Member
I'm enjoying the game too, probably logged 40 hours. That doesn't mean I don't want the game as it was shown/talked about originally, because guess what? It's a better version of NMS.
OuterLimits
Member
I'm enjoying the game but it's pretty obvious to me that Sean was rather deceptive about it. He actually sat talking with freaking Colbert and made shit up. Oh, you only know what you look like by seeing another player. This wasn't just a one time statement either. He repeated the multiplayer aspect frequently, and even used Journey as a comparison.
He also was rather critical of other space games for being "fake" and using a skybox and then proceeds to make up even more shit about his game. Then it turns out each star is a skybox, and the planets don't rotate even. This is even more obnoxious in my opinion. Don't be critical and then do the exact same thing.
The overall foundation of the game is actually fairly good. He is clearly a very talented individual. It's unfortunate that Sean felt the need to exaggerate constantly. I realize some gamers overhyped it as well, but it's hard to really blame them when Sean was making up stuff.
travisbickle
Member
No they didn't. Sean said they are using lots of known techniques all in one game that he thought hadn't been done before. He did say they had a new technique for all assets to be created individually but understanding what other assets are around them, which he thought was "quite smart".
Man, some people really thought there was going to be a universe on a disc that could fool astronauts.
LastCupOfSorrow
Banned
The biggest insult is the years of claims he made that all ended up being lies. He is not more important than you or I so he doesn't get a free pass to do these things. The problem I am having at this point is people trying to defend the indefensible. There are hours of video footage of him lying. There are years worth of Twitter/social media archives where he promised, promised, dragged other devs through the mud, made some more promises, etc, etc. Yet you choose to say someone like ME is the problem. I didn't ask him to lie to millions of people on national television nor did I ask him to lie the day before he released his game to the public. I also did not hide in a hole when all of the backlash came to fruition.
The guy is a liar. The people directly involved all knew he was lying from the start yet continued to support and push his marketing anyway. I feel bad for his family and friends... How do you continue supporting someone who is willing to lie to millions of people over years and years and then ignore his fanbase when shit hits the fan?
I almost have more respect for Molyneux because at least he confronted the media after all of his antics.
No he didn't, lol. He said he had created a superformula that no one had ever used before to "...procedurally generate infinite content, which is why they claimed they would achieve grand things..." He then backed out of this statement right before the game came out, lol.
"Procedurally-generated universe
A typical planet in No Man's Sky includes procedurally-generated flora and fauna for the player to discover and observe.
The main feature of No Man's Sky is that its virtual universe, including the stars, planets, lifeforms, ecosystems, and the behaviour of the space-bound factions, is created through procedural generation using deterministic algorithms and random number generators. A single seed number is used to create these features via mathematical computation, thus eliminating the need to create each of these features by hand. This enables the game to have a massively open nature: Hello Games has estimated that with their 64-bit seed number, their virtual universe includes over 18 quintillion planets.[17]"
This generation system can create a variety of planet ecosystems, including differing rotational periods, the end-effects of natural erosion, and behavioural cycles for the creatures.[10][19][20][21] The amount of life on planets are factored based on their distance from their local sun, with planets far outside the habitable zone typically being barren of life.[10] Not all stars have habitable planets, but still offer potential opportunities for resources to the player if they can survive its inhospitable atmosphere.[11] The developers aimed for a 90–10 rule, with around 90% of the planets being uninhabitable, and of the 10% that do support life, 90% of those only include mundane lifeforms, making the planets that thrive with a vivid ecosystem rare.[22]
Almost the entire Wikipedia page is one big lie... One Man's Lies... The only thing missing was the light refraction nonsense he promised, lol. At this point, no one is even using facts to defend him, lol.
I think it is pretty clear at this point that none of them will be held accountable for anything. This guy must be laughing his head off at this point...
Kacho
Gold Member
Oh it's fun enough for what it is. People are just upset that it's lacking in many areas and some promoted features are missing.
LastCupOfSorrow
Banned
See, that is the thing. It is not because promoted features are missing that people are upset. People are upset because Sean Murray literally lied to their faces for years all while dragging other developers through the mud. The game is ok, and I will admit that much, but Sean has zero integrity and that is the issue here. The game is literally not the same thing he actually talked about it interviews.
He is a liar. February 2016:
" The physics of every other gameits faked, the chief architect Sean Murray explained. When youre on a planet, youre surrounded by a skyboxa cube that someone has painted stars or clouds onto. If there is a day to night cycle, it happens because they are slowly transitioning between a series of different boxes. The skybox is also a barrier beyond which the player can never pass. The stars are merely points of light. In No Mans Sky however, every star is a place that you can go. The universe is infinite"
"Our day to night cycle is happening because the planet is rotating on its axis as it spins around the sun. There is real physics to that. We have people that will fly down from a space station onto a planet and when they fly back up, the station isn't there anymore; the planet has rotated."
http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2016/02/artificial-universe-no-mans-sky/463308/
Fair play, I attacked you, you attacked me back. Now let's focus on the arguments, shall we?
Exploration is a part of the game, yes, but it can't be done without dedicating a bigger amount of time for gathering resources and surviving. So calling it an exploration game is like calling Assassin's Creed games exploration/touristic games.And in AC you can actually sometimes just wander around for ever without dying/being stopped by the lack of resources.
It's not a space sim because it doesn't simulate space in any of its components. It doesn't have more than one galaxy at the same time. It doesn't have more than one star system at the same time. It doesn't have stars, orbits, rotating planets, climate, fauna and flora depending on the distance from the stars. It's at most a random planet sim.
I hope it's clear enough for you this time.
Well I guess with Molyneaux out of the picture someone had to step up to fill the gap. Not to condone misinformation from the developer here, but I am constantly amazed people continue to take developers' claims at face value. To quote myself in one of the pre-release threads:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=210175836&postcount=139
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=210175836&postcount=139
Raven77
Member
A better example would be if the game ended up having 700 Pokemon. They delivered on the main big premise along with many other things. They failed to deliver on many other minor to average sized things.
CoffeeJanitor
Member
People are still preordering video games instead of waiting and seeing
What the fuck
What the fuck
That sounds terrible.
And yes, from what I've seen, it all looks so generic. The game defeats its own sense of scale and adventure with its own basic design; looks like stations/monoliths/aliens are as hard to find as is a Starbucks or 7/11 in a random walk through town. So much for "undiscovered" planets or a "space sim". Looks like neither of those basic claims holds true.