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[Elven_Star]

I really doubt Sony would focus on 4K gaming anytime soon. It's far from mainstream. Investing on it right now wouldn't make much sense. I know you're gonna say that Neo is not going to be mainstream either, but even among the "enthusiast" crowd, a very tiny portion care for and/or can afford 4K right now. Playstation 5 maybe.
Remember that Sony is releasing Neo to dissuade people from switching to PC. How many people do you know who have 4K-capable rigs?

 

[Raiden1018]

This Gen's obsession with resolution is gonna end up screwing us over. I just spent several hours tonight playing bf4 on Xbox one, which is 720p, and I enjoyed the game just fine. 60fps is key. The extra horsepower in Scorpio should be used to guarantee 60fps first and foremost. 30fps is headache inducing.

true.

Graphical enhancements+Stable framerate > resolution.

 

[onQ123]

Native 4K games that are not indies?

Yes 4K games that's not indies.


If Sony waste their time making a new console for 4K & it can only do 4K indie games they are idiots.

If Sony try to brute force their way to 4K & not make the hardware in a way that it can perform more efficiently they are idiots.


They are not making a console for a new generation they are making a console for this generation with a higher resolution. they have one job to do & that's to make a console that can run at 4X the resolution of their current console & people really think they can't achieve this?

 

[Kwansu Dudes]

This Gen's obsession with resolution is gonna end up screwing us over. I just spent several hours tonight playing bf4 on Xbox one, which is 720p, and I enjoyed the game just fine. 60fps is key. The extra horsepower in Scorpio should be used to guarantee 60fps first and foremost. 30fps is headache inducing.

720p is too blurry for my tastes. The difference between Ground Zeroes on Xbone and PS4 is pretty immense. I play on a monitor btw.

 

[Woodchipper]

I really doubt Sony would focus on 4K gaming anytime soon. It's far from mainstream. Investing on it right now wouldn't make much sense. I know you're gonna say that Neo is not going to be mainstream either, but even among the "enthusiast" crowd, a very tiny portion care for and/or can afford 4K right now. Playstation 5 maybe.
Remember that Sony is releasing Neo to dissuade people from switching to PC. How many people do you know who have 4K-capable rigs?

This makes no sense to me. They've sold over 40 million units, so why worry? I've been playing on consoles all my life because it's simple. You buy a console and you're good for at least 5 or 6 years. AT LEAST! That's until now, of course.

 

[2blackcats]

they have one job to do & that's to make a console that can run at 4X the resolution of their current console & people really think they can't achieve this?

Why is that their job?

They haven't said shit about it yet.

 

[Elven_Star]

This makes no sense to me. They've sold over 40 million units, so why worry? I've been playing on consoles all my life because it's simple. You buy a console and you're good for at least 5 or 6 years. AT LEAST! That's until now, of course.

That's exactly why I love consoles, too (well, beside the exclusives). Everything is simple and clean, and works seemlessly.

I'm sure you've seen this Guardian article:
https://www.theguardian.com/technol...n-boss-andrew-house-ps4-neo-microsoft-scorpio

Just posting this part for clarification:

House said that one of the key motivations for PlayStation 4 Neo was specifically to prevent high-end users from abandoning the product at an earlier point than its natural eight-year lifespan. “We’ve traditionally seen that some of the core audience tends to gravitate back to high-end PCs at some point because these are the people who want the finest graphical performance,” he said. “So here’s a great opportunity to have them stay within our ecosystem."

 

[onQ123]

Why is that their job?

They haven't said shit about it yet.

So you think they are making a new console this fast because PS4 graphics are not good enough? Both of the new consoles are being made with 4K in mind.

 

[Woodchipper]

That's exactly why I love consoles, too (well, beside the exclusives). Everything is simple and clean, and works seemlessly.

I'm sure you've seen this Guardian article:
https://www.theguardian.com/technol...n-boss-andrew-house-ps4-neo-microsoft-scorpio

Just posting this part for clarification:

I hadn't seen that. That sounds bad to me, like it's something they will keep doing in generations to come. :'(

Edit: Yeah, exclusives plays a big part in it as well, of course.

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

This makes no sense to me. They've sold over 40 million units, so why worry? I've been playing on consoles all my life because it's simple. You buy a console and you're good for at least 5 or 6 years. AT LEAST! That's until now, of course.

It's bigger than "they don't want people to move to PC", there are tons of options that people can migrate to that get updated quicker and therefore can be a part of technological/social trends much quicker.

GPU thermal/power demands don't scale like they once did, power regulations are stricter, there are size limitations. Die shrinks are happening slower. Consoles are stuck at a $399 price-point.

I love the old console model/lifespan, but no model works forever. All the above listed factors are major changes that came to a head this generation, and Sony just merely adapted and found middle ground with the Neo.

Or they are at least trying to...

 

[Tratorn]

So you think they are making a new console this fast because PS4 graphics are not good enough? Both of the new consoles are being made with 4K in mind.

Look at the slides and you'll realize that Sony knows it can't handle native 4K.
Yes, it'll be probably marketed as a 4K capable device, but that's not the reality.
If 4K would be a primary focus (in terms of games), it wouldn't release soon.
That's exactly why Scorpio is releasing so late, because they couldn't release a console like Scorpio this year.

 

[Freddo]

Yep, I'd take frame rate + graphical fidelity over 4k any day.

Same.

 

[NotSmartEnough]

Yes 4k is a waste for most living rooms and the distance you sit at. Argue all you want about the value of 4k but the majority of it is lost at greater than 6 feet if you don't have a massive display.

The difference between 1080p and 2160p is obvious to me at normal viewing distance on a 55" screen. I've not shown UHD content to anyone and had them say they cannot see the difference.

Based on the DF experiment and Sony's slides I think that the likely sweet spot will be 1800p at ~30fps. It will be hardware upscaled to 2160p before leaving the box, so we'll need the pixel counters to tell us when to cheer or boo.

 

[kyser73]

That's exactly why I love consoles, too (well, beside the exclusives). Everything is simple and clean, and works seemlessly.

I'm sure you've seen this Guardian article:
https://www.theguardian.com/technol...n-boss-andrew-house-ps4-neo-microsoft-scorpio

Just posting this part for clarification:

Just to highlight one little piece of that quote:

House said that one of the key motivations for PlayStation 4 Neo

I remember the thread that this quote in particular kicked off, and how most of the posts in that thread took 'one of' to mean 'the only' reason, much like PSVR-related posts on Neo made the assumption that it only exists because of PSVR.

Likely there are a number of reasons for it to exist - retention of some users; technology opportunity; PSVR and so on.

More on-topic, I'm in the camp of users hoping for improved 1080p performance, both frame rate - either more common 60fps, or utterly solid 30 with eye-wateringly good graphics.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Not that I disagree with this, but what makes this argument any different from PC ports that end up with one or two tiers of slightly better textures?

Well, i'm not really talking about slight better textures on already made assets,which they can obviously patch in. I mean completely different graphical assets from the ground up.

People expecting games to look a generation apart or completely different in terms of actual rendering fidelity because of the more powerful components have misunderstood the purpose of the device.

 

[metareferential]

This makes no sense to me. They've sold over 40 million units, so why worry? I've been playing on consoles all my life because it's simple. You buy a console and you're good for at least 5 or 6 years. AT LEAST! That's until now, of course.

It's not like your PS4 is going to self-destruct once Neo comes out, you know that right? You'll be fine for AT LEAST 5-6 years. Chill.

 

[Theman2k]

It's not like your PS4 is going to self-destruct once Neo comes out, you know that right? You'll be fine for AT LEAST 5-6 years. Chill.

Its true but maybe short sighted.
Right now ffxv runs bad on the ps4, around 20 fps sometimes. If neo will run at 60 fps then IMO The ps4 release will be only for cash grabs.

 

[Endo Punk]

Minimum is 1080x60 for me. I'll be ok gaming in this setting for the decade. Leftover horsepower to allow developers to build worlds with the detail and effects they want.

 

[Darklor01]

Its true but maybe short sighted.
Right now ffxv runs bad on the ps4, around 20 fps sometimes. If neo will run at 60 fps then IMO The ps4 release will be only for cash grabs.

You know that both consoles are running the same disc right? Anyone with base model PS4/slim will find out how it runs and complain for sure if that bad, but it reads like you're saying the PS4 release is separate from the Neo.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Its true but maybe short sighted.
Right now ffxv runs bad on the ps4, around 20 fps sometimes. If neo will run at 60 fps then IMO The ps4 release will be only for cash grabs.

Even if at launch the game performs badly, the PS4 release was going to run like that regardless of what the NEO runs like.

I expect solid 30fps and locked 1080p from FF15 on NEO, so don't get your expectations too high in regards to 60fps either

 

[sense]

I can definitely see graphical options on neo. Maybe limited to the highest resolution with 60fps and highest resolution in 30 fps. Ideally Sony would want a minimum 1080p60fps and 4K 30 fps as the two options.

 

[0racle]

The general public does not care about FPS. Not one "casual" talks about it. No way Sony would market and spend R&D to offer the same console that has "smoother" games. No one besides people REALLY into the PS brand would bother to buy another system just for 60fps. the thing would just create market confusion and essentially be pointless when looking at the big picture

Neo needs to come out offering massive increase in graphics for every ps4 game coming out to be successful. It needs to push the PS brand even further before Scorpio comes out. That is a real threat because we all know graphics sell.

 

[Kyoufu]

The general public does not care about FPS. Not one "casual" talks about it. No way Sony would market and spend R&D to offer the same console that has "smoother" games. No one besides people REALLY into the PS brand would bother to buy another system just for 60fps. the thing would just create market confusion and essentially be pointless when looking at the big picture

Neo needs to come out offering massive increase in graphics for every ps4 game coming out to be successful. It needs to push the PS brand even further before Scorpio comes out. That is a real threat because we all know graphics sell.

Neo isn't aimed at casuals though, so your entire argument here falls apart. This is a device aimed at the enthusiast crowd who are looking for a premium experience.

The casual audience will be buying PS4 Slims this holiday.

 

[Theman2k]

Even if at launch the game performs badly, the PS4 release was going to run like that regardless of what the NEO runs like.

I expect solid 30fps and locked 1080p from FF15 on NEO, so don't get your expectations too high in regards to 60fps either

So what's the point in NEO if it will run on 30 fps, instead of 30 fps with frequent drops?
Why would anyone pay a price of a new console for this?

 

[0racle]

Neo isn't aimed at casuals though, so your entire argument here falls apart. This is a device aimed at the enthusiast crowd who are looking for a premium experience.

The casual audience will be buying PS4 Slims this holiday.

I beg to differ. Regardless of what has been said PR wise they are thinking ahead. Enthusiast crowd is minor in terms of sales. It does not make sense to invest money into an entire CONSOLE to please them. They are introducing the slim as the cheap alternative (such as the 2ds) and eliminating the standard ps4 as we know it. Neo will be the main product in the ps4 brand and direct competitor for Scorpio.

 

[Inuhanyou]

I can definitely see graphical options on neo. Maybe limited to the highest resolution with 60fps and highest resolution in 30 fps. Ideally Sony would want a minimum 1080p60fps and 4K 30 fps as the two options.

Graphical options on NEO are not happening.

4K/30fps is not happening with FF15 on NEO. Nor is 1080p/60.

At most, higher native res than 1080p will be discussed, or Temporal reconstruction, along with better graphics/IQ and locked 30.

People need to understand the limitations of the device in question.

So what's the point in NEO if it will run on 30 fps, instead of 30 fps with frequent drops?
Why would anyone pay a price of a new console for this?

The point of NEO is to run games better than the OG PS4, as well as provide 4K media benefits, that's all. To what degree games run better, depends on the individual developer. And even then, it will be limited even for those more ambitious.

Because of the CPU, getting games from 30 to 60 will be rare. You should be looking for IQ and visual upgrades mostly, in addition to more solid FPS than PS4.

 

[Woodchipper]

It's not like your PS4 is going to self-destruct once Neo comes out, you know that right? You'll be fine for AT LEAST 5-6 years. Chill.

This may sound cocky, but money is not a problem for me so I might as well get the NEO, but I'm still not a fan of all this.

I'm not so sure the original PS4 will be fine that long either. I mean, it is possible that games will soon be optimised for NEO and run like shit on the original PS4.

 

[Lady Gaia]

Neo isn't aimed at casuals though, so your entire argument here falls apart. This is a device aimed at the enthusiast crowd who are looking for a premium experience.

It's aimed at people with more money to spend, period. Most of them are probably casuals by the standards here because they don't have as much free time to spend on gaming.

Of course there will be some enthusiasts buying the system but the assumption that we'd all agree that 60fps is invariably the goal would be as wrong as it always is. For competitive twitch gaming, sure, but that's precisely 0% of the titles I play and certainly doesn't describe FFXV.

 

[sense]

Graphical options on NEO are not happening.

4K/30fps is not happening with FF15 on NEO. Nor is 1080p/60.

At most, higher native res than 1080p will be discussed, or Temporal reconstruction, along with better graphics/IQ and locked 30.

People need to understand the limitations of the device in question.



The point of NEO is to run games better than the OG PS4, as well as provide 4K media benefits, that's all. To what degree games run better, depends on the individual developer. And even then, it will be limited even for those more ambitious.

Because of the CPU, getting games from 30 to 60 will be rare. You should be looking for IQ and visual upgrades mostly, in addition to more solid FPS than PS4.

You may want to chill out a bit. I am not dumb enough to think that a game that has had troubled development for years will be 1080p60 or 4K 30. Like I said "ideally" in a perfect world! Sony would want that. I can still see 1080p60 for the majority of games as an option alongside a higher resolution lower fps version going up to 4K depending on the type of game. Something like watch dogs 2 or battlefield will definitely not hit 4K natively so maybe 1800 or whatever else at 30. I think Sony might do whatever little upgrades possible to the leaked specs to atleast make sure 90% of the games hit 1080p60(increase ram, over clock cpu etc....) but let's see what happens but I am certainly not ruling it out with authority like you are doing.

 

[Eggbok]

If Deep Down is supposedly still around I wonder if we will see it at the PS meeting or TGS.

 

[CottonWolf]

So what's the point in NEO if it will run on 30 fps, instead of 30 fps with frequent drops?
Why would anyone pay a price of a new console for this?

If that's your response, then you've just saved yourself the cost of a new console. Some people will think that, once they've got the money from trading back in their PS4, that cost is worth the marginal gain.

 

[EGOMON]

I keep hearing 4K, 4K as the next resolution upgrade but shouldn't be there a middle resolution around 2K? Why everyone jumping to 4K?
Excuse my ignorance

 

[Mass_Pincup]

Even if at launch the game performs badly, the PS4 release was going to run like that regardless of what the NEO runs like.

We have no way to know that.

I think it's perfectly possible that some developers experience trouble to keep acceptable performance going on PS4 but since the Neo version is fine they may feel that any possible optimization wouldn't be worth it and just release it like that. While with no Neo and the base PS4 being the only version they may want to work on it more.

 

[Harmondale]

Any chances of a ps vr + neo bundle? Would be sweet with some mega hardware bundle (If neo comes this year so to say)

 

[Venom Fox]

Looking down my trophy list for PS4, these are the games I think would have a very good (assuming strong dev/pub intent) chance of full 3840x2160 geometry rendering on the rumoured hardware:

Unravel
Resogun
Gravity Rush Remastered
Tearaway Unfolded (dropping 8xMSAA + FXAA for 4xMSAA or TAA)
Unfinished Swan
Flower, flOw
Another World p)
INSIDE
Bound

These are larger, more performance-spikey games, requiring more scene-specific optimisation, but theresachance.gif:

The Last of Us Remastered
Nathan Drake Collection

^ Metal Gear Solid V would be on this list but I don't know who'd handle the update.


Capcom's struggling with decent 1080p remasters but I'm sure HexaDrive could whip up a further upgraded Okami UHD in fairly short time.


Generalising indie games isn't great because even simple looking indies often don't perform to their surface appearance. For every INSIDE there's a N.E.R.O: Nothing Ever Remains Obscure.

Yep. I'm kinda hoping EGTTR will be updated. I don't expect native 4K TLOU:R or MGSV simply because those games were made with 60fps in mind. Especially MGSV.

Well known devs have already said there's no point trying to target native 4K even on Scorpio so I honestly think they'll just target 1800p, downsample to 1080p and upgrade lighting, textures, geometry etc.

Nothing changed Neo will have some 4K PS4 games not 4K PC games with max settings.

I highly doubt it though. Even native 4K with high settings (There's no point trying to go as low as medium as OG PS4 is nearly there as it is) is a pain in the arse at 30FPS.

Honestly I'm still up for that Avatar bet if your up for it. That's how certain I am.

I'll even ask a gaffer to create a special avatar for us

 

[Inuhanyou]

You may want to chill out a bit. I am not dumb enough to think that a game that has had troubled development for years will be 1080p60 or 4K 30. Like I said "ideally" in a perfect world! Sony would want that. I can still see 1080p60 for the majority of games as an option alongside a higher resolution lower fps version going up to 4K depending on the type of game. Something like watch dogs 2 or battlefield will definitely not hit 4K natively so maybe 1800 or whatever else at 30. I think Sony might do whatever little upgrades possible to the leaked specs to atleast make sure 90% of the games hit 1080p60(increase ram, over clock cpu etc....) but let's see what happens but I am certainly not ruling it out with authority like you are doing.

I'm just lowering expectations. People going in thinking this thing is going to do 4k60 automatically with ultra settings, or take a 30fps game and run it at 60fps on ultra settings will be victims of inflated expectations, and then they will blame the hardware or the developers when they should have known it wasn't going to happen.

I already see so much wrong information being thrown about on youtube and such about it, i can already see it blowing up into a big non controversy

 

[mejin]

We have no way to know that.

I think it's perfectly possible that some developers experience trouble to keep acceptable performance going on PS4 but since the Neo version is fine they may feel that any possible optimization wouldn't be worth it and just release it like that. While with no Neo and the base PS4 being the only version they may want to work on it more.

Several games are being fixed after launch this gen. When Neo arrives will just have an oficial excuse but still nothing changes. Lazy developers will be lazy developers.

The best logic is to implement Neo mode after PS4 version is in a solid development. It's the same platform after all, the same game.

 

[rdytoroll]

Still so many days to go... I'm only getting one: the NX or NEO and want to budget accordingly already. I just hope it's much quieter than my jet engine of a PS4

 

[Venom Fox]

Something like watch dogs 2 or battlefield will definitely not hit 4K natively so maybe 1800 or whatever else at 30.

Watch_Dogs 2 maybe but they won't drop Battlefield 1 to 30fps. They'll probably just stick to native 1080p with some MSAA or something? I don't know what to expect with BF1 tbh but definitely not 30fps.

 

[serversurfer]

Put me in the "4K is a waste" camp. Personally, I'd allocate spare flops thusly:

1. Get to 1080p/~1350p. You want a bit of overscan/supersampling for VR.
2. Boost frame rates where appropriate. Action games, VR, etc.
3. Improve per-pixel quality. Bust out the expensive shaders and match my Avengers Blu-ray before you worry about stuff like UHD.

Hit your basic performance metrics, then just focus on getting yourself looking good for the Faux-k Uprendering Chip, Kiddo.

 

[Tesser]

I'm wondering - if it actually takes place next month that is - how far/close Nintendo's supposed NX reveal will be to the NEO presentation. Will they do what Microsoft did with the Xbone and have a grand reveal a week/week-and-a-half after Sony or will they not bother with something physical and make it a Direct-style presentation.

Hell, getting ahead of myself, will it even be in September? What do Nintendo have to gain/lose from having it close to the Neo showing?

 

[NoctisVsStar]

I'm just lowering expectations. People going in thinking this thing is going to do 4k60 automatically with ultra settings, or take a 30fps game and run it at 60fps on ultra settings will be victims of inflated expectations, and then they will blame the hardware or the developers when they should have known it wasn't going to happen.

I already see so much wrong information being thrown about on youtube and such about it, i can already see it blowing up into a big non controversy

A lot of people are in for a rude awakening. Just you see.

 

[Venom Fox]

A lot of people are in for a rude awakening. Just you see.

Yep. I fully agree.

 

[BY2K]

This Gen's obsession with resolution is gonna end up screwing us over. I just spent several hours tonight playing bf4 on Xbox one, which is 720p, and I enjoyed the game just fine. 60fps is key. The extra horsepower in Scorpio should be used to guarantee 60fps first and foremost. 30fps is headache inducing.

You must not play a lot of games if 30fps is giving you headaches.

 

[NoctisVsStar]

Yep. I fully agree.

I see a scenario that only first party games truly take advantage of it. I can already see Third party devs being super lazy and just do a few checks " full 1080p and 30 fps with no dips."

 

[Kenzodielocke]

Graphics sell more games than frames.

Majority of developers will prefer graphical fidelity over frame rate. 30fps ain't bad. If you want 60fps definitively, you should get yourself a PC.

 

[Kyoufu]

This may sound cocky, but money is not a problem for me so I might as well get the NEO, but I'm still not a fan of all this.

I'm not so sure the original PS4 will be fine that long either. I mean, it is possible that games will soon be optimised for NEO and run like shit on the original PS4.

They already run like shit, but I don't see developers putting more energy into boxes with a tiny fraction of the install base.

 

[MR ARCADE FOREVER]

People expecting Neo to run current gen games at 4k at decent frame rates are delusional. I even doubt it will be able to run it at 1440p decently

 

[Okami Haundo]

Graphics sell more games than frames.

Majority of developers will prefer graphical fidelity over frame rate. 30fps ain't bad. If you want 60fps definitively, you should get yourself a PC.

Psh... Like we would settle for a measly 60fps on PC. Joking aside, I'm with you here. The majority of people who will buy consoles aren't obsessed with FPS either.

 

[Venom Fox]

I see a scenario that only first party games truly take advantage of it. I can already see Third party devs being super lazy and just do a few checks " full 1080p and 30 fps with no dips."

First party games will definitely have an advantage no matter what. It's all ways been that way and will continue do so, so I once again fully agree.

I don't know what to expect from 3rd party devs. I reckon they'll at least try to offer better graphical quality Neo games in order to sell more games but I expect only big publisher games to even try.

Graphics sell more games than frames.

Majority of developers will prefer graphical fidelity over frame rate. 30fps ain't bad. If you want 60fps definitively, you should get yourself a PC.

Yep. Devs have already spoken out and confirmed they'd prefer to give us better graphical fidelity with the new consoles. 60fps updates won't be happening anytime soon with the current CPU.