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[Moonlight]

Well we will probably never know how it actually would have been. But keeping just ONE scene where she is ill and powerless was just so stupid and made no sense. It was like: "Uh what actually happened and what does that mean?".

Yeah, they should have gotten rid of that too. Adding even more of those scenes would hardly have been the solution. The entire premise of those scenes were ugly and pointless and it was clear they realized, just not in time to do anything besides hack away the worst of it. The whole skeleton of what little there is of her character should have been tossed from the game and reformulated.

This is an all-time great NeoGAF post.

Btw, when you say "we", are you including yourself?

Wowowow, I just noticed how awful and self-superior that post was.

 

[wreckml]

Ian Hinck - The Thread.

 

[RainForce]

A large contingent of them do especially in the west where "just make something cool" doesn't really fly since we like to use our brains when it comes to designing characters.

I've been noticing a lot of really passive-aggressive arrogant criticism of Japanese media and its creators from you. It's honestly starting to look like veiled racism at this point.

 

[NinjamicWZ]

A large contingent of them do especially in the west where "just make something cool" doesn't really fly since we like to use our brains when it comes to designing characters.

Being belligerent about perceived, relative sexism 24/7/365 doesn't give you moral license to be a racist xenophobe and imply that mostly non-white people in other parts of the world that you don't reside in are mentally deficient, creatively primitive and socially savage by default.

Feel free to proceed to demonstrate how empowered you feel to be a racist xenophobe though and how justified it is.

 

[Grim Patron]

Being belligerent about perceived, relative sexism 24/7/365 doesn't give you moral license to be a racist xenophobe and imply that mostly non-white people in other parts of the world that you don't reside in are mentally deficient, creatively primitive and socially savage by default.

Feel free to proceed to demonstrate how empowered you feel to be a racist xenophobe though and how justified it is.

QFT.

 

[Suzushiiro]

A large contingent of them do especially in the west where "just make something cool" doesn't really fly since we like to use our brains when it comes to designing characters.

Not saying that Japanese culture doesn't have its share of issues with how it treats women, but there's a line between stating that you wish other countries or cultures would be better about race/gender/etc. issues and outright racism/xenophobia, and you're crossing it here.

 

[Zolo]

Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with making designs that are simply stylish even if they may not be practical depending on the setting. The main problem is when it's exclusively used to make sexist designs or exclusively sexy female designs instead of both genders having sexy designs.

 

[LotusHD]

All great games. So glad I can enjoy them. Kat is my favorite new character of the past few years.

Hmm, now that I really think about it, she's probably mine as well.

Spoiler

Unless 2B takes her spot.

Not saying that Japanese culture doesn't have its share of issues with how it treats women, but there's a line between stating that you wish other countries or cultures would be better about race/gender/etc. issues and outright racism/xenophobia, and you're crossing it here.

Well, his username fits at least.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

High heels are sexist.

Well... yeah? Not inherently so, but there's a lot of history in feminist theory about the sexism of high heels. It's nothing new.

neither at this point, midriff ruined it.

No one said anything was "ruined"... -_- Sigh

 

[RainForce]

Let me know when the "options" are not horribly skewed towards one particular demographics, please.

I agree with you (we desperately need more manservice), but weren't you arguing in another thread about optional fanservice not being a big deal in, I believe Shining Force?

 

[Zolo]

Personally, I think Nier: Automata and GR2 are pretty poor examples for this anyway.

GR1 came out in 2012 and Drakengard 3 came out in 2013. It's not like the developers are just getting on the bus now.

 

[LotusHD]

Personally, I think Nier: Automata and GR2 are pretty poor examples for this anyway.

GR1 came out in 2012 and Drakengard 3 came out in 2013. It's not like the developers are just getting on the bus now.

How come?

 

[Yasumi]

A large contingent of them do especially in the west where "just make something cool" doesn't really fly since we like to use our brains when it comes to designing characters.

Your horse is so high it's looping back around and stuck up its own ass. This is just plain racism.

 

[Zolo]

How come?

Second sentence. I felt the OP was implying it about a new trend and game devs being more open to female protagonists when the devs of GR2 and Nier: Automata had already been doing female protagonists before just recently.

 

[humansarehorses]

But at least the creators of these games have some respect for their characters and don't give them fetish costumes for the otaku fans to ogle them, unlike in Gravity Rush, Resident Evil, FF13 etc.

There's only one costume for Kat in GR that's revealing. If you're going to label maid and schoolgirl outfits fetish costumes regardless of their designs, well, that's asinine.

 

[Zolo]

There's only one costume for Kat in GR that's revealing. If you're going to label maid and schoolgirl outfits fetish costumes regardless of their designs, well, that's asinine.

Not really. Unless a series specifically takes place in those settings, those are pretty fetishy outfits even if they're not necessarily revealing.

 

[LotusHD]

Second sentence. I felt the OP was implying it about a new trend and game devs being more open to female protagonists when the devs of GR2 and Nier: Automata had already been doing female protagonists before just recently.

Oh true. For some reason I took it as you saying Kat is a poor example of a female protagonist people can be proud of, or something along those lines. Just made the assumption based off these last few pages regarding sexism and such, meh.

Not really. Unless a series specifically takes place in those settings, those are pretty fetishy outfits even if they're not necessarily revealing.

I assume it won't count to you, but I believe for each of those outfits, it was a DLC or special mission or w/e that introduced relatively normal scenarios for her to be in those outfits to begin with. Of course, the Spy costume in particular would still be difficult to defend I guess. And even then, as you said, stuff like Schoolgirl or Maid outfits are common fetishes nonetheless, even if the game does give her an actual reason to wear said outfits.

 

[humansarehorses]

Not really. Unless a series specifically takes place in those settings, those are pretty fetishy outfits even if they're not necessarily revealing.

Yes really. Sexy female doctor fantasies are common. There are plenty of pornos where the actress dresses up as a doctor, wears a white coat, etc. Would you, with a straight face, really call female doctor costumes fetish costumes just because there are those fetishes? No?

 

[Zolo]

Yes really. Sexy female doctor fantasies are common. There are plenty of pornos where the actress dresses up as a doctor, wears a white coat, etc. Would you, with a straight face, really call female doctor costumes fetish costumes just because there are those fetishes? No?

Depends on the outfit.

Can you say with a straight face that those outfits weren't made in mind with the idea of appealing to the maid/schoolgirl fetish?

And even then, as you said, stuff like Schoolgirl or Maid outfits are common fetishes nonetheless, even if the game does give her an actual reason to wear said outfits.

And this is more what I mean. It's not like there aren't a ton of variety of outfits that could have been there instead of ones that appeal to common fetishes. Especially if dlc to get money that likes those types of outfits.

 

[Moonlight]

The schoolgirl outfit wasn't a DLC option. Kat having to pose as a student for a bit to gather information is an aspect of the main storyline. The small arc that takes place around that school is a pretty good character moment for her in general.

And it's a very reasonable design as far as schoolgirl costumes could go, imo. I'll let you be the judge, but personally I think it looks like a perfectly normal outfit. And to head things off at the pass, no, you can't peek her underwear in this either.

 

[humansarehorses]

Depends on the outfit.

And the same applies here.

Can you say with a straight face that those dlc outfits weren't made in mind with the idea of appealing to the maid/schoolgirl fetish?

Yeah because they're not sexualized at all.

 

[Zolo]

Yeah because they're not sexualized at all.

Things don't have to necessarily be sexualized for them to appeal to a fetish. That said, I see we disagree on that, so I'll leave the argument there with us at disagreement.

 

[LotusHD]

Not really. Unless a series specifically takes place in those settings, those are pretty fetishy outfits even if they're not necessarily revealing.

The schoolgirl outfit wasn't a DLC option. Kat having to pose as a student for a bit to gather information is an aspect of the main storyline. The small arc that takes place around that school is a pretty good character moment for her in general.

And it's a very reasonable design as far as schoolgirl costumes could go, imo. I'll let you be the judge, but personally I think it looks like a perfectly normal outfit. And to head things off at the pass, no, you can't peek her underwear in this either.

Yea, I thought it was very well done as well. Nonetheless, he's arguing that if they wanted to make outfits for her, it would've been better had they not gone with outfits that appeal to common fetishes at all, even if the end result was tasteful or didn't have anything actually inappropriate happen imo

It's an understandable point of view, considering there's a bunch of temporary occupations and correlating outfits that Kat could've been given. As we see in the sequel alone, she seems to get a red dress for a singing role, an outfit for serving ice cream or something (I forget), and a regular tanktop outfit. Pretty normal stuff. But then they go and make a nurse outfit, which is also a common fetish for guys, so I wouldn't be surprised if someone criticized that.

From my point of view, the fact that she isn't just limited to outfits that are common fetishes, and the fact that all scenarios for all of her outfits are done respectfully remove any potential concern I may have had. At least, for the first game anyways. But of course, others are free to disagree.

 

[Zolo]

Yea, I thought it was very well done as well. Nonetheless, he's arguing that if they wanted to make outfits for her, it would've been better had they not gone with outfits that appeal to common fetishes at all, even if the end result was tasteful or didn't have anything actually inappropriate happen imo

To be honest, I'm not arguing against outfits or scenarios inclusion in the game. I was more responding to this statement:

If you're going to label maid and schoolgirl outfits fetish costumes regardless of their designs, well, that's asinine.

I don't feel it's asinine because I feel those costumes can still be considered pretty fetishy given their status and when included, it raises an eyebrow of why they're included.

Just to use an example in other video games, Persona 3 having dialogue with Junpei being excited about the maid cafe even when the maid outfits weren't going to be sexualized outfits reflecting the thoughts of a possible consumer on the scenario.

 

[humansarehorses]

Things don't have to necessarily be sexualized for them to appeal to a fetish.

Apply that same reasoning to medical shows and see why your argument on the creators' intentions is unconvincing.

That said, I see we disagree on that, so I'll leave the argument there with us at disagreement.

Uh huh.

 

[Crossing Eden]

I've been noticing a lot of really passive-aggressive arrogant criticism of Japanese media and its creators from you. It's honestly starting to look like veiled racism at this point.

K.

Not saying that Japanese culture doesn't have its share of issues with how it treats women, but there's a line between stating that you wish other countries or cultures would be better about race/gender/etc. issues and outright racism/xenophobia, and you're crossing it here.

I'm not white but nice try. Gold star for you.

Your horse is so high it's looping back around and stuck up its own ass. This is just plain racism.

No it's not but ok.

 

[Moonlight]

i like how you fail to address any of the gross shit you said

 

[silva1991]

Does Geralt have an outfit with an exposed midriff, I wonder

]

Not Geralt, but..

Close enough

 

[Zolo]

I'm not white but nice try. Gold star for you.

They didn't say you're white.

 

[The God]

Nier is cool and all but 2B's ass being flashed to you every time the character moves makes me not want to play the game tbh

 

[RainForce]

K.

It doesn't sound like you're denying it.

I'm not white but nice try. Gold star for you.

What does that have to do with anything? The post you quoted says nothing about whether you're white or not. Are white people the only ones capable of racism?

 

[Mega]

I've been noticing a lot of really passive-aggressive arrogant criticism of Japanese media and its creators from you. It's honestly starting to look like veiled racism at this point.

I don't think it's veiled at all. Crossing Eden has a repeat pattern of doing this. I'm surprised it's only coming out now. How many times do we have to read a racist xenophobe offer his hot take on Japanese artists under the guise of concerned social commentary that's really just concern trolling?

K.

I'm not white but nice try. Gold star for you.


No it's not but ok.

You think not being white absolves you of the pattern of racist bias you display? I have met Koreans who don't like blacks or black culture. Blacks who don't like Mexicans. Are you somehow special or immune? You just said Japanese creators are all stupid relative to you and other Western artists. What other conclusion can be drawn from your crappy comment? Deflect more by telling us how your non-whiteness means you can do no wrong.

PS. I'm not white either... so technically I'm never wrong? Is this how it works?

 

[Radical Edward]

Nier is cool and all but 2B's ass being flashed to you every time the character moves makes me not want to play the game tbh

Seems like a weak reason for not enjoying a game. It's like saying you can't enjoy Pulp Fiction because of how many F words are in it. I have a hard time understanding how people get that offended over minor things in this day and age. Sorry

 

[Replicant]

A large contingent of them do especially in the west where "just make something cool" doesn't really fly since we like to use our brains when it comes to designing characters.

This is absolutely disgusting, gross comment to make.

In your attempt to be progressive, you've chosen extremism and ended up looking worse than the people you put down.

 

[Zolo]

Seems like a weak reason for not enjoying a game. It's like saying you can't enjoy Pulp Fiction because of how many F words are in it. I have a hard time understanding how people get that offended over minor things in this day and age. Sorry

It's entertainment. People can have any reason they want for not enjoying a game. In some cases, it's also possible that some stuff would make others uncomfortable to play themselves and(or) possibly others. Personally, I think it'd be a good idea if 2B had an alt-costume like Velvet does in Tales of Berseria.

 

[The God]

Seems like a weak reason for not enjoying a game. It's like saying you can't enjoy Pulp Fiction because of how many F words are in it. I have a hard time understanding how people get that offended over minor things in this day and age. Sorry

I'm not offended, I just think it's really fucking corny

 

[Tohsaka]

I'm not offended, I just think it's really fucking corny

There will probably be unlockable/DLC costumes for the playable characters since there are already pre-order bonus skins for the Pod.

 

[The God]

There will probably be unlockable/DLC costumes for the playable characters since there are already pre-order bonus skins for the Pod.

That works for me if that's the case

 

[Riposte]

Gravity Rush 2 |OT| Brainless character design

 

[Arklite]

Cool, though obviously coincidental, and Japan has never shied from female leads so I suspect Guerrilla's decision was the larger gamble. All three are looking fantastic.

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

Gravity Rush 2 |OT| Brainless character design

Gravity Rush 2 |OT| I'm not white

 

[AstroNut325]

I want all three games, just don't have time!

 

[thebaroness]

The female lead in Nier is wonderful. She appears to have no personality at all, and her eyes are covered so you can focus on her exposed thighs and buttocks, rather than her soul or feelings. Just the way GAF likes it!

So tired of this bullshit. Men saying what is and isn't offensive about a female character. 2B is great and I can't wait for Automata.

 

[Zolo]

She appears to have no personality at all

Errr....playing the demo shows this isn't true.

 

[Ferr986]

Japanese and western devs are equally capable to do great design, I mean look at From software input, and they're not the only ones.

And as I said, the questionable designs aren't done because they don't know better, they`re targeted to a kind of crowd. It's the way it is, there's a market for it and they get the money from there, especially more anime-ish games like Nier:A

So tired of this bullshit. Men saying what is and isn't offensive about a female character. 2B is great and I can't wait for Automata.

Both men and women have given their opinion about that here.

 

[thebaroness]

That character just looked tan to me. Is she really black?

Tired of this bullshit too. Nilin is half black. He mother was black and her father was white.
This line comes up EVERYTIME someone talks about a character being black. Like it's such a bad thing for them to be black? Unless they constantly spew out black stereotypes, their race comes into question. People STILL argue over whether or not Dudley is black from SF. I remember an entire thread where people were arguing whether or not Clementine in the Walking Dead was Asian. Remember Me was great an Nilin was bad as fuck. I wish more people played it so we could get more like it.

 

[M0nochromatic]

I understand wanting different types of leads, but is it really so neccessary to be uncivil and rude in discussions about character design? Is lashing out at those who create or admire sexually appealing characters an intelligent way to get what you want out of this medium?

We have not yet achieved perfectely even ratios between sexy and non sexy protagonists, I admit that to be true. At the same time some of the best games I've played in the past years have had non sexualized women as leads. Walking Dead S2, LISA: The Joyful, Transistor, and Life is Strange off of the top of my head.

It's the best time in the history of video games to be playing games, especially with women as protagonists. We should aim for continued diversification and creativity of course, but the industry has come a ways from women characters created solely as eye candy.

And that is my problem. I don't think it's wrong to have sexy characters. The problem is the ratios. It's an issue if every woman/man/black person/white person/ category of human being in a game is the same thing. And I think we're solving that issue more and more every year.

 

[StrongBlackVine]

K.

I'm not white but nice try. Gold star for you.


No it's not but ok.

You don't have to white to be racist, but I'm sure you are intelligent enough to realize that.

On topic the outfits don't bother me at all. The more options the better. I think the Aloy outfit with the exposed midriff is the best looking on her so far I'll definitely rock it and similar ones that are available. I hope devs are not listening to these minority of complainers wanting fantasy characters to be nerfed artistically/visually/sexually.

 

[neohwa]

It's nothing new. Tomb Raider, Dead or Alive, Metroid, RE, Soul Calibur, etc. have been around for years.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

I agree with you (we desperately need more manservice), but weren't you arguing in another thread about optional fanservice not being a big deal in, I believe Shining Force?

Did I say any of this is a "big deal"?
Anyway, fan service is stupid regardless of the game, but it's obviously less annoying if it's so hidden and obscure that you can play the game 10 times and never see even know it exists, and moreover, when the result is a smidge of blurry, tiny pixels.

Actually I don't really think we need more "manservice", for the record. I wouldn't be more interested in the Witcher games if Geralt had speedo costumes, I'd find it stupid as fuck there too, but at least I suppose it'd help tilt the gender inequality balance. :S

So tired of this bullshit. Men saying what is and isn't offensive about a female character.

Huh? to both the bolded. WTF