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They didn't want to make too mini.

I can't even be mad at you.

 

[Shogmaster]

I'm not sure if they can even run the game on the CPU clock numbers we are talking in portable mode.

Existing code won't run on ARM yet anyways. It will have to be ported ground up for ARM. Then its possible with Switch's gpu clock.

 

[foltzie1]

Friendly reminder that this is the technical discussion thread, so be aware that you don't clog up the thread too much with possible games discussion.

I do wonder what the price range of an additional dock can be. It does require an active controller to convert and reroute the data from the DisplayPort bus into a HDMI and USB signal. This may add a couple of dollars to the production cost, which adds a larger bit on the suggested retail price. I'm actually guessing at 25 to 30 dollars factoring in everything. If it's much more it won't be attractive for the consumers anymore.

I can't see it worth more than $20 for what it does. It charges the Switch/is a power source and indirectly boosts the clockspeed to normal speed. If they charge more than that, its a bit much imo..

Quoting myself from a few days back.

So to help set some expectations, Nintendo sells 3DS docks for about $15 each, but those only support power.

Whereas, USB-C multiport adapters alone cost between $25 to $40 on Monoprice. I would hope Nintendo's costs would be close to what a generic adapter would cost, but with the added size for the dock function and fan, it may be a bit more.

I was previously assuming that USB-C would be directly driving the HDMI port instead of over Displayport, which may require another converter in the dock to output an HDMI signal.

In either event you are looking at an adapter (or more) that sells for between $25 and $50 on Monoprice to get the non-power functionality in the dock. The addition of power complicates things more.

 

[calc84maniac]

Existing code won't run on ARM yet anyways. It will have to be ported ground up for ARM. Then its possible with Switch's gpu clock.

What, exactly, would need to be ported "ground up"? Did they develop the game in x86 assembly language?

 

[Vanillalite]

CPU clock is the same docked or undocked.

proof that people just dont read freaking ops!

No. More like I'm not taking specs as official till they are official so to speak.

As I stated before I'm not saying I know or don't know with regards to switch being powerful enough to indies.

It's just one of the key areas I hope the Switch gets right.

 

[ggx2ac]

Existing code won't run on ARM yet anyways. It will have to be ported ground up for ARM. Then its possible with Switch's gpu clock.

Uhh...

Have we gone back to the days of, "it needs to be x86 to run third party games" again?

 

[EDarkness]

Uhh...

Have we gone back to the days of, "it needs to be x86 to run third party games" again?

Yeah. The circle continues....

 

[lwilliams3]

Existing code won't run on ARM yet anyways. It will have to be ported ground up for ARM. Then its possible with Switch's gpu clock.

Can you elaborate on that statement?

 

[OrbitalBeard]

I feel like people ignore that Nintendo won't release multiple games a month regardless if they could or not

I think they will.

Of course, many of those will be Virtual Console and small eShop releases....but still.

In terms of retail, Nintendo will probably release a handful of AAA releases a year, but the majority of their titles will be mid-tier.

 

[ShadowFox08]

Quoting myself from a few days back.


I was previously assuming that USB-C would be directly driving the HDMI port instead of over Displayport, which may require another converter in the dock to output an HDMI signal.

In either event you are looking at an adapter (or more) that sells for between $25 and $50 on Monoprice to get the non-power functionality in the dock. The addition of power complicates things more.

its literally functioning like an ac adapter that boosts clock speeds of laptops(which the laptop is programmed to when given a power source like that) when plugged in. It doesn't have an extra chip to boost peformance. I mean I guess it has a fan and connects to a USB port and has power button, so it has the leeway of costing more than your typical power source. Of course they will sell it for at least 20-25$, which probably isn't too bad. Here's hoping it isn't significantly more.

 

[BlastProcessing]

its literally functioning like an ac adapter that boosts clock speeds of laptops(which the laptop is programmed to when given a power source like that) when plugged in. It doesn't have an extra chip to boost peformance. I mean I guess it has a fan and connects to a USB port and has power button, so it has the leeway of costing more than your typical power source. Of course they will sell it for at least 20-25$, which probably isn't too bad. Here's hoping it isn't significantly more.

It will be a little more than an AC adapter. It has to serve as a usb hub and HDMI out. It will need a few small chips to do that. Nothing crazy, but it will add cost. I expect they will sell it for $50 to $60.

 

[AzaK]

So to help set some expectations, Nintendo sells 3DS docks for about $15 each, but those only support power.

Whereas, USB-C multiport adapters cost between $25 to $40 on Monoprice. I would hope Nintendo's costs would be close to what a generic adapter would cost, but with the added size for the dock function and fan, it may be a bit more.

I would expect docks to be like controllers. Priced WAY above actual costs. It would not surprise me to see a dock costing $60-99USD

 

[EDarkness]

I would expect docks to be like controllers. Priced WAY above actual costs. It would not surprise me to see a dock costing $60-99USD

I wouldn't be surprised either. Honestly, that's about what I'm expecting it to be. Good thing I won't need more than one dock.

 

[Bert]

We know at least one studio is using Unreal Engine 4 as well(Next Level Games) so if Nintendo is willing to embrace middleware that will help their productivity too.

Nintendo will use middleware. They'll use their own stuff. You don't make games for 30 years and not develop your own tools.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Nintendo will use middleware. They'll use their own stuff. You don't make games for 30 years and not develop your own tools.

Exactly... a company of this size and as content/designer driven who always had pride for their games technically too (they are one of the few developers who when they say 60 FPS locked they mean it ) does have internal engines that are well documented and designed to be shared across studios. They are and will use middleware from time to time, but not everyone HAS to use UE4! Now people will say it about DICE and EA... throw away Frostbite... use UE4!!!!

I am very annoyed at the UE4 solves everything silver bullet sorry :/.

 

[Mr. Pointy]

UE4 cured my cancer.

Are Nintendo still using that heavily modified Twilight Princess engine for most of their games?

 

[blu]

Merry Christmas, NintenGAF, may your 2017 has less of:

Existing code won't run on ARM yet anyways. It will have to be ported ground up for ARM.

 

[MCN]

Mary Christmas, NintenGAF, may your 2017 has less of:

Apparently ARM is some weird, esoteric architecture that nobody supports and isn't in literally billions of devices, to a level that Intel can only dream of.

 

[Roo]

And that's why you shouldn't comment on stuff you know shit about.

 

[Genio88]

Mary Christmas, NintenGAF, may your 2017 has less of:

Thanks, marry Christmas to you too, though what we are mostly waiting for in here is Switchmas in January 12

 

[blu]

On a less Mary note (autocorrection FTW), here's a very interesting benchmark by Phoronix, showing the advancement in FLOPS/Watt in both AMD and NV lineages:

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=2016watts-red-green&num=1

Basically, from Fermi/R700 to today, there's a 10x increase in performance per Watt. No wonder mobile GPUs have seen such a boost.

 

[Daedardus]

Quoting myself from a few days back.


I was previously assuming that USB-C would be directly driving the HDMI port instead of over Displayport, which may require another converter in the dock to output an HDMI signal.

In either event you are looking at an adapter (or more) that sells for between $25 and $50 on Monoprice to get the non-power functionality in the dock. The addition of power complicates things more.

The port technology used is a USB-C 'Alt mode' called DisplayPort over USB-C. It allows the data transfer to be reprogrammed pin-by-pin. The protocol then uses a mix of DP signal and USB 3.1 data to transfer video, audio and data. Power is delivered and managed by seperate pins. The video protocol has then to be changed to a compatible HDMI signal, which requires a bit of logic and power hence active conversion is needed.

What the dock actually needs is an incoming USB-C port for power, three outgoing USB-A ports and one outgoing HDMI port. The actual chips inside will be small, since it only needs to combine the three USB-A ports into one USB data stream and convert the DP into HDMI. I guess chips like that would cost a couple of dollars in wholesale price.

I suppose the actually power will just go through the dock without the dock having to manage anything. There will be some sort of power management chip in the Switch itself to regulates these things, as you are able to plug in the power cable directly into the Switch.

The reason why many of those adapters cost quite a bit more is because of the extra costs that come into a final product. They still need a shell too, need to be manufactured, assembled, packaged, shipped to wholesale, wholesale needs to handle them, shipped to retailers, retailers want a profit and then you get the final price, which are also calculated into the whole dock of the Switch. It's also dependent on the amount of product you produce. Since the dock is already needed in tens of millions of consoles, it can be sold seperately as a by-product of normal production.

I'm not well-versed in manufacturing prices of electronics, but I would guess at a bill of materials and manufacturing cost of around 15-20 dollars. If it's any more it would put a serious dent in the profitability of the Switch as a whole console. I doubt many people would want to pay $60 dollars for an additional dock either.

 

[Waji]

Thanks, marry Christmas to you too, though what we are mostly waiting for in here is Switchmas in January 12

I want Switchmas. Give me switchmas.

 

[Refreshment.01]

What the dock actually needs is an incoming USB-C port for power, three outgoing USB-A ports and one outgoing HDMI port. The actual chips inside will be small, since it only needs to combine the three USB-A ports into one USB data stream and convert the DP into HDMI. I guess chips like that would cost a couple of dollars in wholesale price.

In other threads, i speculated about the dock power connector been an USB port in the back instead of something else, like for example, having the power supply build inside the dock. The logic behind it at the time, was that Nintendo could include a modular power brick that both powers the dock and can be taken when on the go to charge the Switch through the USB C port. So the shape of the power brick male plug would be compatible with the bottom USB C port of the Switch itself and with the back of the dock.

The port configuration you mention above is exactly detailed like that in the latest patent, so baring any changes is pretty much confirmed. Kind of surprised the Japanese analyst comments about Display Port was taken as "news" and casused some confusion among posters.

I suppose the actually power will just go through the dock without the dock having to manage anything. There will be some sort of power management chip in the Switch itself to regulates these things, as you are able to plug in the power cable directly into the Switch.

http://m.neogaf.com/view.php?img=https://abload.de/img/15178984-32awsfm.png

There's some management going on within the craddle as we can see from the patent diagram. The craddle even includes a Power/Sleep button and a status LED. The craddle also charges the Switch even if it's turned off. There's also the processing unit to manage the 3 USB ports and the id process of the Dock.

The id process of the dock is particulary interesting. First, because it has some autenthication going on about been an official product and then there's the other thing (SPECULATING HERE) about the Switch working only with full clocks when is docked and not when is just plugged to the power source.

 

[Luigiv]

UE4 cured my cancer.

Are Nintendo still using that heavily modified Twilight Princess engine for most of their games?

Heavily modified Super Mario 64 engine you mean.

 

[foltzie1]

The port technology used is a USB-C 'Alt mode' called DisplayPort over USB-C. It allows the data transfer to be reprogrammed pin-by-pin. The protocol then uses a mix of DP signal and USB 3.1 data to transfer video, audio and data. Power is delivered and managed by seperate pins. The video protocol has then to be changed to a compatible HDMI signal, which requires a bit of logic and power hence active conversion is needed.

What the dock actually needs is an incoming USB-C port for power, three outgoing USB-A ports and one outgoing HDMI port. The actual chips inside will be small, since it only needs to combine the three USB-A ports into one USB data stream and convert the DP into HDMI. I guess chips like that would cost a couple of dollars in wholesale price.

I suppose the actually power will just go through the dock without the dock having to manage anything. There will be some sort of power management chip in the Switch itself to regulates these things, as you are able to plug in the power cable directly into the Switch.

The reason why many of those adapters cost quite a bit more is because of the extra costs that come into a final product. They still need a shell too, need to be manufactured, assembled, packaged, shipped to wholesale, wholesale needs to handle them, shipped to retailers, retailers want a profit and then you get the final price, which are also calculated into the whole dock of the Switch. It's also dependent on the amount of product you produce. Since the dock is already needed in tens of millions of consoles, it can be sold seperately as a by-product of normal production.

I'm not well-versed in manufacturing prices of electronics, but I would guess at a bill of materials and manufacturing cost of around 15-20 dollars. If it's any more it would put a serious dent in the profitability of the Switch as a whole console. I doubt many people would want to pay $60 dollars for an additional dock either.

I think we're on the same page regarding the tech involved in a dock.

I pointed out the Monoprice costs for an adapter with similar functionality since they tends to be the lowest price for such items. Heck USB-C wall warts are still more expensive than you would expect.

I hope for closer to $25 for an extra dock but with that including the physical piece of plastic (w/ fan maybe), a wall wart and cable, and the ports. . . I don't see how they get really cheap on price.

I'm more concerned about what this added to the Switch's total price. It would stink for a large part or the retail cost to cover non-game driving components.

 

[lwilliams3]

Merry Christmas, NintenGAF, may your 2017 has less of:

Merry Christmas to you too, sir.

I started a discussion in the other Switch thread about this, but it is probably more appropriate here: Are there any other particular GPU features that Maxwell/Pascal have that the GCN architecture in the PS4/XB1 does not, besides the 2x fp16?

 

[blu]

Merry Christmas to you too, sir.

I started a discussion in the other Switch thread about this, but it is probably more appropriate here: Are there any other particular GPU features that Maxwell/Pascal have that the GCN architecture in the PS4/XB1 does not, besides the 2x fp16?

Immediately come to mind Conservative Rasterisation and Rasteriser Ordered Views.

https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/mt186615(v=vs.85).aspx

 

[Nostremitus]

Immediately come to mind Conservative Rasterisation and Rasteriser Ordered Views.

https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/mt186615(v=vs.85).aspx

This the fancy way of saying tiled rasterizer?

 

[Panajev2001a]

Immediately come to mind Conservative Rasterisation and Rasteriser Ordered Views.

https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/mt186615(v=vs.85).aspx

Considering how both are linked to practical realtime Order Independent Transparency they cannot be universal son enough... pet peeve of mine ever since they removed HW translucency sorting in the PVR line :/...

Those should have made it in the Polaris feature set both PS4 Pro and Scorpio use though...

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

Merry Christmas crazy people

 

[blu]

This the fancy way of saying tiled rasterizer?

Not quite, though CR does have a relation to tiling. Read on..

Considering how both are linked to practical realtime Order Independent Transparency they cannot be universal son enough... pet peeve of mine ever since they removed HW translucency sorting in the PVR line :/...

Those should have made it in the Polaris feature set both PS4 Pro and Scorpio use though...

Well, OIT is definitely the poster use of ROV, but CR has way more uses - think collision detections and voxel trees.

 

[Nostremitus]

Not quite, though CR does have relation to tiling. Read on..

Yeah, I saw that wrt CR. Was trying to make sense of what I was reading.

 

[blu]

Apparently ARM is some weird, esoteric architecture that nobody supports and isn't in literally billions of devices, to a level that Intel can only dream of.

Ironically, ARM did to Intel what Intel did to mainframes and specialized workstations back in the day. It's really charming when somebody gets outmanoeuvred by their own gig.

 

[Doctre81]

In fairness, I don't believe the OP covers the Eurogamer Report.

Everyone in this thread should have read that article already.

 

[Hermii]

No. More like I'm not taking specs as official till they are official so to speak.

As I stated before I'm not saying I know or don't know with regards to switch being powerful enough to indies.

It's just one of the key areas I hope the Switch gets right.

The Wii U is powerful enough for most indies. With much better tools and middleware support Switch should be more than fine.

 

[lwilliams3]

Immediately come to mind Conservative Rasterisation and Rasteriser Ordered Views.

https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/mt186615(v=vs.85).aspx

Thanks. Looks like I have a little reading to do.

 

[Hermii]

UE4 cured my cancer.

Are Nintendo still using that heavily modified Twilight Princess engine for most of their games?

After that definition ue4 is a heavily modified ue3.

 

[Shogmaster]

What, exactly, would need to be ported "ground up"? Did they develop the game in x86 assembly language?

Meaning they might have to rewrite some of the game to accommodate the lower power of Switch.

 

[Hermii]

Meaning they might have to rewrite some of the game to accommodate the lower power of Switch.

Lower power and different architecture yeah sure. You could say that for xbone compared to PS4 too.

It being arm is not an issue.

 

[ChrisMahoney]

Lower power and different architecture yeah sure. You could say that for xbone compared to PS4 too.

It being arm is not an issue.

Engines will probably have to be heavily modified to run well on the Switch. Engines are programmed with specific things running on each core

 

[blu]

Engines will probably have to be heavily modified to run well on the Switch. Engines are programmed with specific things running on each core

Engines have to be modified to run well on any particular piece of hw. Different engines are designed with different topologies and work distribution in mind. Engine development is nothing new to the likes of Switch - it's not like this brand new concept of 4x ARMv8 cores and a SM5 GPU sprung overnight.

 

[LordRaptor]

Engines will probably have to be heavily modified to run well on the Switch. Engines are programmed with specific things running on each core

Multiplatform engines are coded to be platform agnostic and not even assume that there are multiple cores, let alone hardcode specific things to run on specific cores.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Multiplatform engines are coded to be platform agnostic and not even assume that there are multiple cores, let alone hardcode specific things to run on specific cores.

They are probably all designed to coordinate a bunch of micro tasks that can be indiendently dispatched to N cores where N is a number grater or equal to 1. This means that they likely all have profiles for each of the platforms they support and core affinity, cache/memory hierarchy (cache line size, set associativity, inclusive vs exclusive, etc...), and more are part of the per platform profile and influence certain code paths in the engines and the way it creates and dispatches work.

The golden era of computing is ove (easy per thread performance scaling year over year) r, you will see these engines catering more and more to the platform quirks to extract performance than before or progress will slow down a lot.

 

[LordRaptor]

The golden era of computing is ove (easy per thread performance scaling year over year) r, you will see these engines catering more and more to the platform quirks to extract performance than before or progress will slow down a lot.

I mean, I'd concede this as probably true, if Sony and MS hadn't both laid their cards on the table and basically said they have no interest in anything other than improved graphical fidelity for the foreseeable future.

 

[BDGAME]

With that possible low specs, of 400 GF, is the switch weaker or stronger than GPD Win?

 

[Rodin]

With that possible low specs, of 400 GF, is the switch weaker or stronger than GPD Win?

Pretty similar when undocked, much more powerful when docked.

Edit

GPD uses Intel HD 405 clocked at 200Mhz with a burst speed up to 600Mhz. So about 50Gflops standard and 150Gflops at the top speed of 600Mhz. Not sure if it ever sustains that 600mhz for very long though (?).

This is interesting because I remember people swearing that the next Nintendo's handheld wouldn't have been even remotely in the same ballpark as this.

 

[Donnie]

With that possible low specs, of 400 GF, is the switch weaker or stronger than GPD Win?

GPD uses Intel HD 405 clocked at 200Mhz with a burst speed up to 600Mhz. So about 50Gflops standard and 150Gflops at the top speed of 600Mhz. Not sure if it ever sustains that 600mhz for very long though (?).

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

This is interesting because I remember people swearing that the next Nintendo's handheld wouldn't have been even remotely in the same ballpark as this.

Looking purely at their handheld line, Switch's guts seem more like what I'd have expected of a GameBoy/DS of 2021 rather than 2017.

 

[Hermii]

Pretty similar when undocked, much more powerful when docked.

Edit

This is interesting because I remember people swearing that the next Nintendo's handheld wouldn't have been even remotely in the same ballpark as this.

To be fair they didn't expect it to double as their next home console.