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[TLZ]

I just hope it is noticeably better than the Wii U so people can stfu.

Just because people don't think like you doesn't mean they're wrong. Some people like this stuff and are enthusiasts. Don't be nasty. If you don't like it then simply don't participate.

it's a long thread yea As I said it's been discussed to death.

If I remember correctly it was fourth storm who after thorough study of the die shots concluded beyond doubt its 176. Sorry I won't be the kind soul who bother to look it up.

Well I'm still reading then. I wasn't here back when it was discussed to death so this doesn't help my case. If anyone else feels like helping me out, I'd be thankful. Maybe z0m3le can chime in and put this to rest, or Fourth Storm, or Thraktor.

 

[Luigiv]

If the article's wrong, then Thraktor's wrong, btw, since it was based on Thraktor's thread. I'm reading Thraktor's thread and still reading posts but it has 200+ pages and it's not easy going through all of them to reach the definite conclusion. Some here prefer to troll instead of pointing me to the proper answer. "SMD IS SHIT!!11!!1" is not an answer.

Can you please be a kind soul like a couple here and point me to that post that proves this article wrong so I can put this to rest?

Thraktor was wrong/overly optimistic. Keep in mind he said this at the beginning of his post.

***What follows is speculation and deduction based on what we see in the die photo. Our analysis is ongoing, so please don't jump to any hasty conclusions***

What he wrote in the OP was merely his initial interpretations, speculation. As the thread went on 20spu's per core/176gflops was confirmed.

 

[AzaK]

Did you guys bother reading the article at least? I don't know the maths here but SMD quoted Eurogamer's article, the one I linked, and he apparently did the maths and came up with 350gf instead of 176gf. I linked so someone knowledgeable can read and check this. If I knew how I'd have done it myself. And if it's really 350gf that puts it close to switch's speculated 400gf. And I'd like to know what that could mean power and performance wise. If anyone's going to shit post please don't bother. Someone knowledagble is welcome as I'm lacking in that department and I'm seeking it.

I'll quote this part from the article since no one bothers reading:

I believe FourthStorm and z0m3le counted 20 alus in each of the 8 shader units instead of 40.

And I had (It's gone now) the official documentation for the Wii U SDK. It is 176GFlops and yes it was 160 SPs not 320 IIRC.

 

[lwilliams3]

it's a long thread yea As I said it's been discussed to death.

If I remember correctly it was fourth storm who after thorough study of the die shots concluded beyond doubt its 176. Sorry I won't be the kind soul who bother to look it up.

Near the end of that thread, we were discussing something about a leaked spec that said something like "192 wavefronts" that also contributed to us concluding that the 176GFLOPS number was legit. I was an active participant in that thread, but I don't recall (nor want to look deep into a 100+ page thread to find it) when we all agreed on the most likely situation.

And I had (It's gone now) the official documentation for the Wii U SDK. It is 176GFlops and yes it was 160 SPs not 320 IIRC.

I recall you having that. Maybe that was where the "wavefront" number came from.

 

[Vash63]

Excuse my ignorance in this subject, I've always read this and expected to take it at face value, but can someone show me real life examples/comparisons of 2 architectures having almost similar gf/tf with the lower one outperforming the other by miles because it's modern? I honestly and genuinely want to see this. And please no one respond with "it's not about power". I am very interested in tech talk but sometimes things like these I don't comprehend and would like to be enlightened.



Because he's linking the Eurogamer article....

Just look at some PC benchmarks for AMD vs Nvidia. Or if you want to go a few generations back check out Nvidia's Fermi vs Kepler or Maxwell. Their framerate improvements always outpaced the FLOPS improvements. In AMD's case they lose per FLOP vs Maxwell/Pascal despite a memory speed superiority as well.

 

[EatChildren]

WUST thought Wii U was initially 1 TFLOP? geez. lol. Switch isn't even half that (fp16 and architectural differences aside). Did we ever find out how much better the Wii U's GPU was over the Xbox 360?

The WUST was overdosing on hype, aided by massive amounts of misinformation and technical terminology being thrown around by people who didn't fully comprehend what they were talking about, coupled with the delusion that post-Wii Nintendo would be back in the hardware race in some capacity.

 

[mrklaw]

The 2015 shield tv is 4k and HDR capable as well.

So then what was the point of the new Shield TV at all? Just a slimmer refresh?

The point is to add 4K and HDR for things like Netflix and Amazon video. Those are needed in 2017 to make it a box that poeple woul deb willing to buy for media playback (even though I think almost all 4K
TVs have 4K Netflix and Amazon apps)

 

[antonz]

And I had (It's gone now) the official documentation for the Wii U SDK. It is 176GFlops and yes it was 160 SPs not 320 IIRC.

Correct Wii U ended up being 160sp in a 32 ALU x 5 Stream Processors per ALU layout

 

[Hermii]

The point is to add 4K and HDR for things like Netflix and Amazon video. Those are needed in 2017 to make it a box that poeple woul deb willing to buy for media playback (even though I think almost all 4K
TVs have 4K Netflix and Amazon apps)

Doesn't X1 support that by default? So unless Nintendo spent a few man years to customize those features out, it should be in.

 

[MCN]

massive amounts of misinformation and technical terminology being thrown around by people who didn't fully comprehend what they were talking about

Par for the course, really.

 

[Luigiv]

Doesn't X1 support that by default? So unless Nintendo spent a few man years to customize those features out, it should be in.

Well it not so much the SoC but the dp to hdmi converter in the dock. Nintendo could have potentially cheaped out on that.

 

[10k]

The WUST was overdosing on hype, aided by massive amounts of misinformation and technical terminology being thrown around by people who didn't fully comprehend what they were talking about, coupled with the delusion that post-Wii Nintendo would be back in the hardware race in some capacity.

It was beautiful chaos and what got me to sign up for GAF.

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

It was beautiful chaos and what got me to sign up for GAF.

Explains a lot.

 

[MDave]

SuperMetalDave... and this MDave. How do we know they aren't the same person.

Smd is trevelyan on gaf. Could be an alt account but I wouldn't bet on it

Yeah I'm not him hah.

It's funny how I started off wanting to down clock it to match the Switch and do some benchmarks, when I actually need to upclock it by modding the Shield TV haha.

 

[TLZ]

Thraktor was wrong/overly optimistic. Keep in mind he said this at the beginning of his post.


What he wrote in the OP was merely his initial interpretations, speculation. As the thread went on 20spu's per core/176gflops was confirmed.

And I had (It's gone now) the official documentation for the Wii U SDK. It is 176GFlops and yes it was 160 SPs not 320 IIRC.

Just look at some PC benchmarks for AMD vs Nvidia. Or if you want to go a few generations back check out Nvidia's Fermi vs Kepler or Maxwell. Their framerate improvements always outpaced the FLOPS improvements. In AMD's case they lose per FLOP vs Maxwell/Pascal despite a memory speed superiority as well.

Thank you all very much.

This should be case closed for me now.

Appreciated.

 

[ShadowFox08]

The WUST was overdosing on hype, aided by massive amounts of misinformation and technical terminology being thrown around by people who didn't fully comprehend what they were talking about, coupled with the delusion that post-Wii Nintendo would be back in the hardware race in some capacity.

Eh, can't blame them. Its part hype, and part what info we get from the beginning until the end. Same thing happened here when we thought the Switch would be between Xbone and PS4 specs, and I believe that was when Emily Rogers got the first leak about it being better than Xbone off paper (I'm assuming she meant dev kit with fp16 being 1 GFLOP).. Hell some were on the polaris band wagon, including me. Not to mention, we've always believed in Nintendo releasing a decent powered console(relative to competitors) since the gamecube, and it hasn't turned out what we expected since then.

 

[Malakai]

Eh, can't blame them. Its part hype, and part what info we get from the beginning until the end. Same thing happened here when we thought the Switch would be between Xbone and PS4 specs, and I believe that was when Emily Rogers got the first leak about it being better than Xbone off paper (I'm assuming she meant dev kit with fp16 being 1 GFLOP).. Hell some were on the polaris band wagon, including me. Not to mention, we've always believed in Nintendo releasing a decent powered console(relative to competitors) since the gamecube, and it hasn't turned out what we expected since then.

She didn't say that she did write this below though:

In terms of raw power, numerous sources tell me that NX is much closer to Xbox One than PlayStation 4. Even that might be stretching it a tiny bit

Source
Also, in that article she writes that wasn't using a Polaris...

 

[ggx2ac]

Eh, can't blame them. Its part hype, and part what info we get from the beginning until the end. Same thing happened here when we thought the Switch would be between Xbone and PS4 specs, and I believe that was when Emily Rogers got the first leak about it being better than Xbone off paper (I'm assuming she meant dev kit with fp16 being 1 GFLOP).. Hell some were on the polaris band wagon, including me. Not to mention, we've always believed in Nintendo releasing a decent powered console(relative to competitors) since the gamecube, and it hasn't turned out what we expected since then.

Hmm? stronger than Xbone, weaker than PS4?

May 13th: https://arcadegirl64.wordpress.com/2016/05/13/so-about-nx/

In terms of raw power, numerous sources tell me that NX is much closer to Xbox One than PlayStation 4. Even that might be stretching it a tiny bit. Anyone who is claiming that NX is “two times the power of PS4 GPU” is being misled by their sources. Based on what I’ve heard, I don’t believe the NX will compete directly with PS4 (Neo) / PS4K in raw power.

But everything that I’ve heard (so far) indicates that NX isn’t going to blow away any of the consoles on the market today…except for Wii U.

 

[GhostTrick]

Hmm? stronger than Xbone, weaker than PS4?

May 13th: https://arcadegirl64.wordpress.com/2016/05/13/so-about-nx/

Yeah, people misunderstood what EmilyRogers said. She said it was closer to XB1 rather than PS4 and that even close to XB1 might be a stretch.

 

[KingSnake]

So tell me if i've got this right...from this information..

Switch's GPU clock speed is actually 25% higher than the Shield's GPU in average use, contrary to previous information? And the misconception with the Shield was that it was running at Tegra X1's maximum clock potential(1ghz) as opposed to a lower clock speed?And the CPU is still half.

This seems to be the case. But I think we still need a second measurement to check that, because I find it strange that everybody who reviewed and benchmarked Shield TV missed this.

If that's true, I wonder if the new Shield has anything changed regarding this.

Also, is there a source for Pixel C throttling to 400 Mhz because I couldn't find anything?

 

[Dekuboy]

Hmm? stronger than Xbone, weaker than PS4?

May 13th: https://arcadegirl64.wordpress.com/2016/05/13/so-about-nx/

this sounds more "it is as strong as the x1 but not much much stronger". And know we know the Switch is tends to be much closer to the U than to the X1. So why didn´t she said "it´s won´t blow anything out the water, because it is much more closer to the U than to the x1" ?

 

[Luigiv]

this sounds more "it is as strong as the x1 but not much much stronger". And know we know the Switch is tends to be much closer to the U than to the X1. So why didn´t she said "it´s won´t blow anything out the water, because it is much more closer to the U than to the x1" ?

No it doesn't. That is, in no way, shape or form a valid reading of that statement.

 

[Dekuboy]

No it doesn't.

If I say it´s Closer to B, when we compare B and C, but even this is stretch. This sounds more like it´s either more powerfull than B or it is a little bit less (not the half) powerful than B.

But this doesn´t tell me that it´s more to A than to B.


But who cares now about that, it´s subjective. Talk more about Specs and Stuff.

 

[ShadowFox08]

Hmm? stronger than Xbone, weaker than PS4?

May 13th: [/QUOTE] I legit thought I rememb...itially have a better CPU than Xbone and PS4.

 

[TLZ]

I legit thought I remember her initially saying that the NX would be more powerful than the xbone, but it wouldn't look that way on paper. It was either her or someone else. I don't think it was LCGEEK, and it definitely wasn't laura kate dale. I think this was right after LCGeek said the NX/Switch would initially have a better CPU than Xbone and PS4.

Yes. Someone said on paper it doesn't look it but its actually better than xbone. Maybe it was her or lcgeek. Maybe I'm lost. 5 days left anyway so who cares.

 

[Hermii]

She didn't say that she did write this below though:



Source
Also, in that article she writes that wasn't using a Polaris...

She also said it blows away Wii U or something like that. Which might be a bit of a stretch, at least in mobile mode.

 

[Hermii]

Hmm? stronger than Xbone, weaker than PS4?

May 13th: https://arcadegirl64.wordpress.com/2016/05/13/so-about-nx/

Close to Xbox one is stretching it a tiny bit? No wonder we got overhyped lol.

Edit: sorry about dp.

 

[Osiris]

Close to Xbox one is stretching it a tiny bit? No wonder we got overhyped lol.

Edit: sorry about dp.

The overhyping happens because any news or speculation which reduces hype is dismissed as trolling or dismissed with hand-wavey "We don't know anything yet!", whereas any news or speculation that increases hype is entertained more easily and becomes the new baseline for expectation, which means the thread topics technical speculation as a whole has only one direction, up, which is unrealistic.

That raises expectations and leads to things like the ridiculous WUST threads.

 

[family_guy]

Close to Xbox one is stretching it a tiny bit? No wonder we got overhyped lol.

Edit: sorry about dp.

Should have just said it's like two Wii Us taped together.

 

[benny_a]

The overhyping happens because any news or speculation which reduces hype is dismissed as trolling or dismissed with hand-wavey "We don't know anything yet!", whereas any news or speculation that increases hype is entertained more easily and becomes the new baseline for expectation, which means the thread topics technical speculation as a whole has only one direction, up, which is unrealistic.

That raises expectations and leads to things like the ridiculous WUST threads.

aka

Why are posts like this allowed in OT? They aren't spoilers but definitely hype reducers

 

[Oregano]

So with the recent revelations of the new Shield still using the X1 and the fact that the Shield underclocks to under docked Switch performance is it safe to say that the Switch is actually probably as powerful as it could feasibly be?

That doesn't change what kind of visuals the machine can pump out or whether ports are feasible but it's at least feasible that it's not a case of Nintendo kneecapping the device.(also means what ShockingAlberto heard was probably true).

 

[Hermii]

So with the recent revelations of the new Shield still using the X1 and the fact that the Shield underclocks to under docked Switch performance is it safe to say that the Switch is actually probably as powerful as it could feasibly be?

That doesn't change what kind of visuals the machine can pump out or whether ports are feasible but it's at least feasible that it's not a case of Nintendo kneecapping the device.(also means what ShockingAlberto heard was probably true).

What did SA hear?

 

[Oregano]

What did SA hear?

It was something a long the lines of "We're not making a purposely underpowered system". Which makes sense if they're literally getting the most they can out of the existing technology.

 

[AlStrong]

It was something a long the lines of "We're not making a purposely underpowered system". Which makes sense if they're literally getting the most they can out of the existing technology.

Folks just need to understand the nature of throttling...

 

[lwilliams3]

Folks just need to understand the nature of throttling...

The CPU doesn't seem to throttle at all, so heat/energy may not be an issue for that clock speed. Since the CPU in the Switch is reported to be clocked down to almost half, does this mean that Nintendo could have opt to change the CPUs to A72s?

As for the Sheild, I don't think many people expected the GPU to throttle due to the system being plugged instead of being portable.

 

[Vash63]

The CPU doesn't seem to throttle at all, so heat/energy may not be an issue for that clock speed. Since the CPU in the Switch is reported to be clocked down to almost half, does this mean that Nintendo could have opt to change the CPUs to A72s?

No, more likely it's a rock solid clock rate that doesn't throttle. The Pixel C tablet DEFINITELY throttles it X1 when hot. Keep in mind that for programming reasons they've locked the CPU to 1GHz both mobile and docked, could be bad for game logic to have the clock rate changing erratically.

Performance wise they don't even need A72's, even with 1GHz A57's they're looking great on the CPU side relative to the GPU. The CPU:GPU ratio is almost definitely more CPU sided on the Switch than on the XBone or PS4.

Keep in mind that the Jaguar cores in the PS4/XBone are basically 2011 Netbook architecture... they're hardly fast or modern and were made primarily for power savings. They aren't that far of a cry from an ARM mobile chip. When the first Jaguar cores came out back in 2011 they were only ~2x an ancient Cortex A15 - the A57 should absolutely destroy that in terms of IPC and put it pretty close to Jaguar. Sure, the clocks are lower, but the GPU is less than half so that's not really a big deal.

TLR - I don't think anyone should be worried about the CPU being a bottleneck here.

 

[KingSnake]

TLR - I don't think anyone should be worried about the CPU being a bottleneck here.

You're forgetting that you got just 4 cores for CPU in Switch in this comparison.

 

[Plinko]

With all the news/theories about the power in here, I think my only issue is that the price ($249) seems too high for the package. Am I wrong here?

 

[MCN]

With all the news/theories about the power in here, I think my only issue is that the price ($249) seems too high for the package. Am I wrong here?

Explain where you can get a more powerful handheld device for that price which isn't heavily subsidised by a mobile phone network.

 

[Manoko]

With all the news/theories about the power in here, I think my only issue is that the price ($249) seems too high for the package. Am I wrong here?

 

[Plinko]

Explain where you can get a more powerful handheld device for that price which isn't heavily subsidised by a mobile phone network.

Oh, you can't. I understand that.

I'm thinking more of what Nintendo is competing against in this industry. I think a sub-$200 pricepoint would be impulse buy territory, but going up against a PS4 at $249 with an already established colossal game library is foolhardy. Tech seems fine for what it is (and I'll assuredly buy one), I just am not sure it is going to be enough to compete.

Perhaps their plan really is utilizing SCDs for the dock in a year or two to stay competitive as a home console.

 

[Hoo-doo]

With all the news/theories about the power in here, I think my only issue is that the price ($249) seems too high for the package. Am I wrong here?

Profit margins, dude. Nintendo isn't in this game to lose money.

 

[Somnid]

Oh, you can't. I understand that.

I'm thinking more of what Nintendo is competing against in this industry. I think a sub-$200 pricepoint would be impulse buy territory, but going up against a PS4 at $249 with an already established colossal game library is foolhardy. Tech seems fine for what it is (and I'll assuredly buy one), I just am not sure it is going to be enough to compete.

Perhaps their plan really is utilizing SCDs for the dock in a year or two to stay competitive as a home console.

I don't think anyone will see like that. It's like saying the Vita needed to be cheaper because of the Xbox360. You could make that argument due to the way things panned out, but it'd be one hell of a stretch. I don't think direct comparisons are going to be made like that, in fact even people who own PS4s would probably be likely candidates for Switch ownership as well.

 

[Vash63]

Oh, you can't. I understand that.

I'm thinking more of what Nintendo is competing against in this industry. I think a sub-$200 pricepoint would be impulse buy territory, but going up against a PS4 at $249 with an already established colossal game library is foolhardy. Tech seems fine for what it is (and I'll assuredly buy one), I just am not sure it is going to be enough to compete.

Perhaps their plan really is utilizing SCDs for the dock in a year or two to stay competitive as a home console.

The PS4 isn't a mobile system or using mobile hardware. It doesn't need an SoC that can fit on a credit card (or two), a screen, a battery, external peripherals to handle display... They aren't really comparable. This would be better compared to an iPad or tablet in terms of costs or value.

 

[Oregano]

Oh, you can't. I understand that.

I'm thinking more of what Nintendo is competing against in this industry. I think a sub-$200 pricepoint would be impulse buy territory, but going up against a PS4 at $249 with an already established colossal game library is foolhardy. Tech seems fine for what it is (and I'll assuredly buy one), I just am not sure it is going to be enough to compete.

Perhaps their plan really is utilizing SCDs for the dock in a year or two to stay competitive as a home console.

Is it too much for the mass market? Possibly.

Is it too much just based off the specs? Possibly not. The new Shield is $199 and has a lot of the same hardware but with 3GB RAM, 16GB storage and has a controller and remote.

Switch has the dock, the screen, two Joycons, 32GB for basic, 4GB RAM. $50 difference might be about right.

 

[TwilightPrincess]

TLR - I don't think anyone should be worried about the CPU being a bottleneck here.

It would not be a bottleneck for Nintendo games. For PS4 ports? It could. 4 downclocked A57 cores (it would be fewer just for games, perhaps 3) would be much weaker than 6 Jaguar Cores in the PS4. The Jaguar cores are even higher clocked.

So i hope there are more cores (2 for the OS perhaps) or/and better.

 

[TLZ]

I don't think anyone will see like that. It's like saying the Vita needed to be cheaper because of the Xbox360.

Vita? The vita is a handheld. The Switch is a hybrid. That's not a good comparison.

 

[Donnie]

Explain where you can get a more powerful handheld device for that price which isn't heavily subsidised by a mobile phone network.

Even the top mobile phones won't be as powerful for gaming.

It would not be a bottleneck for Nintendo games. For PS4 ports? It could. 4 downclocked A57 cores (it would be fewer just for games, perhaps 3) would be much weaker than 6 Jaguar Cores in the PS4. The Jaguar cores are even higher clocked.

So i hope there are more cores (2 for the OS perhaps) or/and better.

How high clocked they are doesn't mean anything though. Even at 1ghz A57 is as powerful or maybe even more powerful overall than Jaguar at 1.6ghz. That's if the CPUs even end up being A57 and not something better.

The number of cores is the only possible issue. But we have no idea if there could be extra smaller cores in there just for the OS (a couple of A53s maybe).

 

[TwilightPrincess]

Shouldn't that Emily quote be taken with grain of salt of how early on it was. We assume devkits got increase in oct-nov time frame. I doubt whoever she was talking to was referencing to console overall. I assume they were referencing the devkits they were working with at the time "stretching" to meet Xbox one territory?

Emilys early leak was really off (or worded poorly) if the known specs are true and nothing changed. Closer to Xbox One than PS4 sounded like it would be stronger than Xbox One. Later it said: struggled to even reach XBox One in raw power. That sounded that it would be weaker but not that much away.

 

[big_erk]

Vita? The vita is a handheld. The Switch is a hybrid. That's not a good comparison.

It's a closer comparison than the PS4.