Pinko Marx
Banned
Snake in MGS has always been, in some ways, a form of self-insert for Kojima.
He really wants to give it to Joosten.
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Kojima: Overly sexualized women in DS will be given a deep background story"
- Thread starter Lime
- Start date
Snake in MGS has always been, in some ways, a form of self-insert for Kojima.
He really wants to give it to Joosten.
Not this time, Kojima... just outright admit if you're gonna sexualise the characters... don't hide behind a shield of white armour.
Wow I did not think it was that bad. Screenshots did not seem that... Sexualized.
I mean it's ok to like virtual sexy girls but just outright say it. Backstories are more stupid.
Messofanego
Banned
The only thing I know about Paz is on top of being raped, there's a bomb placed in her vagina. Sounds like a rape victim, yeah. And Kojima is like from the 90s with this edgy shit.
whalleywhat
Member
Good god what drivel. "I need a story about a genetically altered super-soldier, but one that doesn't impose unrealistic body images on women." Just hang out in Outer Heaven, it's a freaking Benetton ad.
Argument about what lol, you keep making these ridiculous, irrelevant statements about his self awareness and porn at the academy awards.
Pinko Marx
Banned
You missed an entire game's worth of characterization with her.
Sounds like a personal problem.
Crazy Diamond
Member
Which only happens in first-person, meaning the player has to prompt Quiet's attempts at turning on Snake. Quiet putting her ass in Snake's face and the like only happen when the player makes it happen. People complain about it yet they trigger it by staring at the character in the first place.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
?
I follow his twitter. If thats any indication, than DS will be about La La Land and how handsome Mads-san is. He hasnt posted anything about Trump.
Why is disliking crappy effortless characters "being triggered"?
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
It's funny because that's literally the extent of her characterization in MGSV. She's a figment of the player's imagination while dressed in a fetish costume and a pinup model while in a poster. I mean, it's almost like Kojima has problems with sensitive subject matter involving women specifically.
Because to want women to be treated more equally and fairly to be a big ol meanie SJW. /s
Genius during refractory period.
WaffleTaco
Wants to outlaw technological innovation.
You obviously do not understand how it comes off as sexist or racist, or why it is a problem, and you do not seem to even want to understand. Grow up.
Complicated
Banned
Man, I thought even most MGS fans would admit that Kojima's approach to sexuality and women was at best sophomoric. I mean, there are a great many things to praise him for, but in general his handling of female characters isn't one of them.
And for anyone claiming that people pointing this out are just trying to start drama or being too sensitive, look at how nuts some people get when anyone dares question Kojima.
It's not like (most) people are saying he's a terrible person, it's that there's this one aspect people wish he would improve.
And for anyone claiming that people pointing this out are just trying to start drama or being too sensitive, look at how nuts some people get when anyone dares question Kojima.
It's not like (most) people are saying he's a terrible person, it's that there's this one aspect people wish he would improve.
Head.spawn
Junior Member
Death by asphyxiation?
Nope. Paz is technically a triple agent, who made contact with one of the most powerful and sought after man in the world at the time. Skullface wanted information on his whereabouts so he could attack him. Paz would not break normally despite the sadistic treatment. She only
caved when Skullface threatened to kill Big Boss, and she wanted to save him.
John Kowalski
Banned
He just needs an editor.
CosmicGroinPull
Member
Glad he's going to keep it up with his new game. It's just not a Kojima game without it.
Except none of that is relevant in Phantom Pain.
Pinko Marx
Banned
Is there a way to not trigger that stupid scene where she rolls around in the rain and her and snake lovingly embrace before she gets tsun again and disappears?
I would love to have that scene seared away from my memories.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Can't argue with that still hung my head in shame from last time.
SolidSnakex
Member
It's still not what he said. There may very well be sexualized women in DS, but this certainly isn't him confirming that as the thread title would suggest. It's not only the first new IP from Kojima in over two decades, it's the first game that doesn't have "Metal Gear" in the name from him in that time. There's really no telling what he'll do in any aspect of the game. He's been wanting to do something different since MGS2 was completely, and this was even more the case after he completed MGS3. As that was the time he started really trying to hand the series off to other members of the team, although he was obviously unsuccessful at that. So, I don't necessarily think you can look at any previous patterns since this is really a clean start for him. He's also now surrounded by a bunch of new people, so they can influence him in different ways (although hopefully never again to abandon an awesome idea for an ending like he had with MGS4).
50 Shades of Grey does have a primarily female fanbase. My point, and you know it, is that Joosten or any woman liking Quiet doesn't mean I have to.
No, you don't get it at all. Like, at all.
That people liked these characters doesn't mean anything. It just means he's good enough at writing other aspects of their characters to be engaging (though I'd argue that it's more that he writes the story around these characters rather than that these characters are interesting in and of themselves, for the most part, but that's just me). To use myself as an example, I fucking LOVE the Princess Bride, but I'm not going to pretend that it Princess Buttercup isn't a stereotypical damsel in distress for the male hero to save. It's still a good movie, but that doesn't change that it's adhering to shitty stereotypes.
But sexual objectifying isn't a thing you just make up for. You don't get to get away with sexual objectification just because you do other stuff. That's not how the world works, you don't get to steal something just because you paid like you were supposed to the past 50 times.
The fact that Kojima seems legitimately incapable of writing a female character, even a child, who is not sexually objectified is a legitimate problem both for him and the world view that his art brings to his audience. It's harmful, and he doesn't get out of that because "Well, people like them, so it's okay".
You remember that quote from the final fantasy 15 guy about how he didn't understand why people wanted female characters if they were going to get mad about their sexual objectification? He may have said it, but Kojima is living that philosophy. If he seriously can't write a female character who isn't sexually objectified no matter what, then it kind of implies the value he holds on women. Not that he doesn't value women, but that he primarily values them for titillation rather than as people. And any time you dehumanize people for their physical attributes, that's bad.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
50 shades of grey was a terribly sexist novel series written by someone who has very little knowledge about safe BDSM practices. Women liking it does not absolve it of being sexist garbage, just like the actress for Quiet liking the character, (like any actor ever no matter the character), doesn't absolve the Quiet from being a garbage character and the perfect poster child for everything wrong with the representation of women in gaming. In the same train of thought, people used to unironically post the opinions of cosplayers when trying to shut down any critique of sexist character design or representation. Missing the issues entirely.
Arby 'n' the Chief
Member
Respect levels for Kojima +10, bring on the hot ladies with those deep sexy backgrounds
he's having with this lol
he's having with this lol
M0nochromatic
Member
The absolute mad man. I wonder if he said that with any hint of self awareness or irony. Just please don't make their default outfits be fish net stockings, bikinis, or skin tight leather.
God, I hope we don't get another Quiet and/or B&B Corp.
God, I hope we don't get another Quiet and/or B&B Corp.
whalleywhat
Member
Enlighten me. I am Tabula Rasa. Allow me to see the world through your eyes.
And?
John Kowalski
Banned
No you're not. Don't say that.
Crazy Diamond
Member
Exactly. The fake outrage is nice. Especially given the thread title doesn't match what he said in the first place.
The extent of her character in Phantom Pain, the game being talked about, is essentially rape victim. She sits in the hospital, and has traumatic flashbacks involving it. That's it for her character in that game.
LordOcidax
Member
Sorry. ok..
Basketball
Member
I disagree Kojimer
Liking/showing titties and ass
Should not have to be explained.
It's okay though pal.
Keep up the great work
Liking/showing titties and ass
Should not have to be explained.
It's okay though pal.
Keep up the great work
No, we're trying to have a discussion about the possibility of these characters mirroring his previous designs, since this is not the first time he says such things. Try to read the thread first next time instead of immediately being overly defensive.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
It's almost like the dude has a history of games where there's a noticeable and worrying downward spiral when it comes to the treatment of women. Especially in comparison to other devs who at a time, used to do similar things, such as Ubi's Prince of Persia game that was meant to be edgy or ND's Jak 2. People have a ton of valid reasons to be worried, with the BB corps, Quiet, Paz, Strangelove literally being fridged, etc.
whalleywhat
Member
Busted. I was raised within a culture and already have a well-formed worldview. But I would honestly like to hear what WaffleTaco has to say.
Pinko Marx
Banned
No one is angry here pal. We're just talking and hoping Kojima doesn't repeat previous sins. The world must be spared another character as bad as Quiet. Its important.
I am not arguing she isn't a rape victim, just that it is not, and never was the extent of her character. If you choose to ignore everything leading up to MGSV (You know, a sequel. That had other games before it. That you play, and are given more information on characters.) to justify making idiotic statements, you just shouldn't be taken seriously.
That's because Venom only
remembers her as a school girl because of the facade she put on during her time at Mother Base. She's just a hallucination in Venom's head because he lives with the regret of not saving her. He never interacted with her true personality, so he could only insert the Paz he knew as a school girl.
I'm not defending Kojima here, I'm just clarifying the backstory here because it can get muddy.