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Bungie explains why Destiny 2 is 30 FPS on consoles, even the PS4 Pro (CPU limits)

Calabi

Member
I'm not sure I'd go that far.

Using only officially released promotional screenshots for both games...

Destiny 2:
destiny-2_2017_05-18-5nyi3.jpg


destiny-2_2017_05-18-duli7.jpg



Halo 5:

It doesnt look that great to me, I mean it looks sharp, but the metal doesnt even look like metal, none of the materials, look like any material in the real world. It looks kind of over lit cartoony. Which is fair enough if they were going for that. But it doesnt seem likely the graphics are responsible for 30fps, but maybe they are doing something weird, high resolution, or using heavy particle effects or something.

But I wonder if games will ever be 60fps in the majority on consoles, or if they will always just exceed the limits of them to crank up those graphics, AI, or whatever else.
 

Fbh

Member
Makes sense for the PVE content but Im finding it hard to believe that 4vs4 PVP on rather small maps (based on D1) with no vehicles (that we know of so far) or map destruction (that we know of so far) they couldn't reach 60fps.


Still, crucible is one of my favorite PVP multiplayer games this gen and the 30fps never bothered me. 60 would have been nice but at least for me not a must.



.
Do these CPU limits exist in Scorpio?

From what I know it's more powerful than the one on the pro (not that it's a hard to thing to achieve) but it's no powerhouse either.
 

geordiemp

Member
From what I know it's more powerful than the one on the pro (not that it's a hard to thing to achieve) but it's no powerhouse either.

Scoprio is 9.52 % better CPU than Pro.

Hold on to your hats.

I5's in PC's are about 3 or 4 x faster on performance (1.7 IPC + faster Ghz) than shitty jaguar. One day consoles will have decent CPU's, maybe 2019 ?
 
Scoprio is 9.52 % better CPU than Pro.

Hold on to your hats.

I5's in PC's are about 3 or 4 x faster on performance (1.7 IPC + faster Ghz) than shitty jaguar. One day consoles will have decent CPU's, maybe 2019 ?

This. People keep mentioning the % increase from base PS4/XB1 to Pro/Scorpio, yet they keep forgetting that the increase, no matter how big is not impressive at all considering the speed of the base Jaguar CPU. You can tune up a Toyota car engine, but no matter how far you push it, it's still a Toyota engine.

What's more depressing is the way both Sony and Microsoft treating the CPU upgrade for their iterative console.

PS4 to Pro : 31% CPU increase, 130% GPU Tflops increase
XB1 to Scorpio : 31% CPU increase, 360% GPU Tflops increase

It's pretty clear that they're not aiming for their 'pro' consoles to run games at 60fps. They're aiming for that 4K.
 

MikeBison

Member
This. People keep mentioning the % increase from base PS4/XB1 to Pro/Scorpio, yet they keep forgetting that the increase, no matter how big is not impressive at all considering the speed of the base Jaguar CPU. You can tune up a Toyota car engine, but no matter how far you push it, it's still a Toyota engine.

What's more depressing is the way both Sony and Microsoft treating the CPU upgrade for their iterative console.

PS4 to Pro : 31% CPU increase, 130% GPU Tflops increase
XB1 to Scorpio : 31% CPU increase, 360% GPU Tflops increase

It's pretty clear that they're not aiming for their 'pro' consoles to run games at 60fps. They're aiming for that 4K.

To be fair that's a terrible analogy because I've had 800hp+ 2jz 'just toyota' engines.

Rest of your point, totally agree.
 

Trup1aya

Member
The problem isn't the CPU- its how the CPU is being used. It's 2017, and we are discussing what is sure to be one of the biggest online games on console- yet it uses a p2p networking solution.

This is a waste of CPU resources, and likely explains why they can't hit 60fps, despite having less demanding physics and AI simulations than other games on the market.

They are handling things on the box that should be handled by the server.

Hasn't Microsoft stated the opposite already? That there won't be any frame rate differences between Scorpio and Xbox One games?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2016/06/25/microsoft-says-scorpio-will-not-have-better-framerates-than-regular-xbox-one-games/#62e7242c5bf2



It's a pretty similar statement to what Mike said but she just went ahead and said what we already know. Microsoft has been pretty on point about Scorpio. Don't read too much into that tweet.

If the developer designs the game to support dynamic res and unlimited frame rates, than the Scorpio version will just run the engine to the best of its ability.

It wouldn't be a matter of having to design two instances. If I remember correctly, this comment from Loftis was walked back pretty quickly.
 

nOoblet16

Member
We talking going from locked 30 on standard to locked 60 on Pro? Maybe I missed it, but I can't think of a single game that has done that.
The Surge is the only game that does this and it's probably because it's GPU heavy and does not stress the CPU too much allowing them to achieve near perfect 1080P/60 on Pro Vs 1080P/30 on base.
 

nkarafo

Member
I wonder if the PS4 Pro has the biggest bottleneck between hardware parts in a proprietary hardware so far.


Scoprio is 9.52 % better CPU than Pro.

Hold on to your hats.

I5's in PC's are about 3 or 4 x faster on performance (1.7 IPC + faster Ghz) than shitty jaguar. One day consoles will have decent CPU's, maybe 2019 ?
Last gen consoles (PS360) had very powerful CPUs, in fact they were more powerful than your average PC CPU when they came out. I don't know what happened with this gen.
 
I wonder if the PS4 Pro has the biggest bottleneck between hardware parts in a proprietary hardware so far.

I think PS3 had a lot of issues where they were using CPU to make up for GPU shortcomings as a result. Heck, last-gen the CPUs on both HD Twins were quite decent, held-back by GPU shortcomings, this gen looks like they can resolve the GPU issue, but realize they're stuck with regards to the CPU issue.

And Scorpio isn't exactly changing the CPU in their system either. They'll be able to get as much power from the existing framework as they can, they'll just have extra GPU/RAM power, which they'll use for their NATIVE 4K/REAL 4K advertising.
 

AmFreak

Member
I think PS3 had a lot of issues where they were using CPU to make up for GPU shortcomings as a result. Heck, last-gen the CPUs on both HD Twins were quite decent, held-back by GPU shortcomings, this gen looks like they can resolve the GPU issue, but realize they're stuck with regards to the CPU issue.
Eh, even the gpus were (far) more state of the art last gen.
The real reason is TDP and the desire of Sony and MS to do an APU instead of 2 discrete chips. And that desire is unlikely to change in the foreseeable future.
What they will probably do is exchange some gpu-power for cpu-power, but they will never meet the standard 2 chip pc-setup.
 

Paragon

Member
Fine in theory - but just not the way Bungie has done things with Destiny. They target parity, they don't want to piss off the larger of the fanbases and users of the original consoles. They also want to avoid (dubious) accusations of "unfairness" and to ensure that their marketing partner gets value for money.

As I said on the previous page - anyone holding out hope of D2 showing off the scope of the Scorpio is going to be sorely disappointed.
Who says that they're targeting parity?
Won't the game run at higher resolutions on the Pro/Scorpio?
Probably a more consistent 30 FPS too.
Framerate is unlocked on PC, instead of forcing everyone to 30 or 60 FPS for the sake of "parity".
And "parity" is really a myth anyway, as there are so many other external factors - which other posters have explained.

The game is locked to 30 FPS because that's the best the consoles can do on a 60Hz display.
With a 60Hz display, if you can't do a locked 60 you have to drop the framerate to 30 for a smooth experience.
Anything in-between stutters badly due to uneven frame pacing.

It's unlikely that Scorpio is enough of an upgrade to run the game at 60 FPS so it will also be locked to 30 FPS when connected to a standard display.
But Scorpio no longer has that restriction, since it supports Variable Refresh Rate displays. (FreeSync/HDMI 2.1 VRR)

Why would they leave performance on the table and not unlock the framerate?
Even if they did lock it to 30 - and I don't think they will - just using a VRR display is going to be a huge advantage anyway, since that removes several frames of input lag.
Even if your HDTV has 20ms input lag, a 30 FPS game will add at least another 70-100ms due to V-Sync.
A FreeSync monitor should have <10ms input lag and eliminates that V-Sync lag.
So much for parity.
 
I'm no expert, I'm not even an amateur on this tech stuff so bear with me.

Can particles be dynamic? I'm looking at that shield break in the picture above and wonder:
"does it break the same way every time? Does it have stress points from individual bullets?"
"Do the particles from an explosion bounce off a wall independently?"
"Are each of those rendered as a point of light that creates dynamic lighting?"

If the Pro is processing all of that at 4K, could that be why they can't get to 60? Personally I choose visuals over speed, but I'd like to know why we can't have both from a technical standpoint one of these days.
 

Hairsplash

Member
Excuses,excuses... this is an engine problem. destiny 1 problem we made it for the xbox 360...
Destiny 2 problem we made it for the ps4 only... the rest follow...
 

Zakalwe

Banned
Double post: apologies.

I'm no expert, I'm not even an amateur on this tech stuff so bear with me.

Can particles be dynamic? I'm looking at that shield break in the picture above and wonder:
"does it break the same way every time? Does it have stress points from individual bullets?"
"Do the particles from an explosion bounce off a wall independently?"
"Are each of those rendered as a point of light that creates dynamic lighting?"

If the Pro is processing all of that at 4K, could that be why they can't get to 60? Personally I choose visuals over speed, but I'd like to know why we can't have both from a technical standpoint one of these days.

You can, on PC.

Consoles are closed platforms with limited hardware and devs want to push their games visually because visuals sell.
 
You don't need a powerful CPU for 60fps
Interpolating animation
People forget that the Scorpio white papers mentioned using this technique
 

Toni

Member
Neah. Nothing makes BF1's guns feel as good as Destiny 1's. And that's speaking as a Battlefield fanboy.

Battlefield 1 actually nailed the feel of Snipers though. Everybody can get good with snipers on Destiny.

It has bullet drop, a learning curve, a drastically better sniper upgrading / modding system and much longer line of fire on BF1.
 

geordiemp

Member
You don't need a powerful CPU for 60fps
Interpolating animation
People forget that the Scorpio white papers mentioned using this technique

No mate. You can run the game at 120 FPS, just run each frame 4 x lol. Or you can run a racing game or tetris at 60, hey its solved....NO....

The whole point of 60 FPS is the feel of having your control actions do something ever 16 ms and the game actually running at 16 ms.

If your game still runs at 32 ms (30 FPS) but animations fill in the gaps to give 60 FPS animations and 30 FPS gameplay....is that what you mean

Thats just sounds CRAP and defeats the whole point. Witcher 3 at 60 FPS gameplay would just control and feel more fluid, Witcher 3 interpolated is almost like having a fancy motion blurr ?

MS need to cut it with the PR shite talk this gen. Yes Scorpio will be great for IQ, I like it and to be applauded, but some of the marketing talk about non jaguar whatever and interpolation animation is insulting.

Next gen starts when we get decent CPU's, and Scorpio and Pro are weighed down their neck by the turd that is Jaguar and wont do any thing for 30 FPS console games 9 times out of 10, and no bullshit code words, PR crap or whatever is going to change that.
 

nOoblet16

Member
You can run the game at 120 FPS, just run each frame 4 x lol.

The whole point of 60 FPS is the feel of having your control actions do something ever 16 ms and the game actually running at 16 ms.

If your game still runs at 32 ms (30 FPS) but animations fill in the gaps to give 60 FPS animations and 30 FPS gameplay....is that what you mean

Thats just sounds CRAP and defeats the whole point. Witcher 3 at 60 FPS gameplay would just control and feel more fluid, Witcher 3 interpolated is almost like having a fancy motion blurr ?

MS need to cut it with the PR shite talk this gen. Yes Scorpio will be great for IQ, I like it and to be applauded, but some of the marketing talk about non jaguar whatever and interpolation animation is insulting.
I think he's talking about 60fps character movement/response time and interpolated 60fps for everything else. Sort of like the thing the developers of The Force Unleashed 2 were trying to achieve with their framerate interpolation technique. It probably wasn't good enough, be it in terms of how it feels, the artifacting etc otherwise it'd have made it to the final game.
 

geordiemp

Member
I think he's talking about 60fps character movement/response time and interpolated 60fps for everything else. Sort of like the thing the developers of The Force Unleashed 2 were trying to achieve with their framerate interpolation technique. It probably wasn't good enough, be it in terms of how it feels, the artifacting etc otherwise it'd have made it to the final game.

I know exactly what he means, adding a bit of motion interpolation, almost a fancy motion blur to a 30 FPS game, it is still a 30 FPS game to play.

It does not mean the game character plays at 60, its the other way around.

Animation interpolation is what it is, smoother characters and 30 FPS gameplay and control.

IF PR is going for super motion blur and claiming 60 FPS PR when its really 30.... then the idea needs stamping on now.
 

EvB

Member
Even if they were do you really think they are still comparable or close to the same after all this time since they stop developing halo and 343i took over?

I just wondered, because people had been crying out for years and years and years that Bungie needed to have a new engine, despite them saying that they had rebuilt the entire engine several times.

However nobody is saying the same thing anymore, despite it being the same situation for both 343i and Bungie.

I'm just wondering what changed to have people stop saying it?
 

KageMaru

Member
Is it the same engine as Destiny? Didn't they say it took days to load assets just to move a rock a few cm or some crap?! Hopefully it's a new engine at very least?

It's a newer version of the previous engine. However they have made improvements for faster iteration turnaround times. So hopefully that shouldn't be such an issue this time around.

Excuses,excuses... this is an engine problem. destiny 1 problem we made it for the xbox 360...
Destiny 2 problem we made it for the ps4 only... the rest follow...

This makes no sense. If there ever was a time where Destiny was going to hit 60fps on the newer systems, it would be when it's designed to run on slower machines like the PS360. Destiny 2 isn't 30fps because it's made for the PS4, it's 30fps on consoles because it's a more taxing game.

Well, they're probably very correct in that it wouldn't be allowed if it were possible, even if it isn't the actual reason for it.

Why would it not be allowed? Developers rarely get involved in the politics of a marketing deal. If the game could hit 60fps on Scorpio, Bungie would likely do it. Problem is the small jump from the Pro to Scorpio CPU isn't going to provide the performance to reach 60fps.
 

-hadouken

Member
Who says that they're targeting parity?
Despite a marketing deal and a sizeable GPU advantage, why didn't the PS4 receive visual upgrades over the X1 version of the original game (that was originally struggling to hit 900P)?

Framerate is unlocked on PC, instead of forcing everyone to 30 or 60 FPS for the sake of "parity".
I'm guessing you know very well that the PC market is not comparable to consoles. Bungie are fully aware that failing to provide expected PC settings is a death sentence for a game on that platform. (edit) The delay for the PC mitigates this issue.

But Scorpio no longer has that restriction, since it supports Variable Refresh Rate displays).
Yes, that will be true when it launches (for the minuscule number of people who have the required display), but I'll happily wager you $10 that Bungie won't implement this feature. You in? The game will be capped at 30fps on all consoles.

Why would they leave performance on the table and not unlock the framerate?
They're seeking to avoid alienating millions of base PS4 and X1 users as best as possible. Just as they did with the X360/PS3 versions of D1. Offering upgrades that impact gameplay (rather than something like resolution) is contentious.
 

Trup1aya

Member
I know exactly what he means, adding a bit of motion interpolation, almost a fancy motion blur to a 30 FPS game, it is still a 30 FPS game to play.

It does not mean the game character plays at 60, its the other way around.

Animation interpolation is what it is, smoother characters and 30 FPS gameplay and control.

IF PR is going for super motion blur and claiming 60 FPS PR when its really 30.... then the idea needs stamping on now.

Really, to improve the response in a 30fps game, the solution would be to simply poll the inputs at 60hz. It wouldn't completely nullify the advantage, but it would close the gap.
 

nOoblet16

Member
I know exactly what he means, adding a bit of motion interpolation, almost a fancy motion blur to a 30 FPS game, it is still a 30 FPS game to play.

It does not mean the game character plays at 60, its the other way around.

Animation interpolation is what it is, smoother characters and 30 FPS gameplay and control.

IF PR is going for super motion blur and claiming 60 FPS PR when its really 30.... then the idea needs stamping on now.
Yea but what I'm saying is if it is possible to decouple character controls/movement to everything else in the game so that your controls/movements and your inputs were as if it were true 60FPS updating every 16ms but everything else in the game is 30FPS at 32ms interpolated to 60.

Pretty sure this is what The Force U leased 2 developers were trying rather than straight up interpolation to 60FPS which would feel awful as it'd be like the shitty motion interpolation that TVs do.
 

Kusuri

Neo Member
Reads like bullshit to me, honestly. Like, be honest about your resources -- if you can't do it, then just say you can't. If it's a choice, and you chose one angle, then state so. Don't be like "Well, we have all this stuff, and when we pushed the 'on' switch it just didn't work" -- instead, be like, we have all this stuff, and we want to keep all of it, and we don't have the resources.

Because when you turn your attention to MP, it's not some ridiculous physics sim. TitanFall, Cod, they are physically doing the same things, and they are doing it at 60 fps -- grenade 'bounce' physics aren't chopping off that extra 30.

Just be honest, lol. "It's complicated" is such a fucking turn off.

And one doesn't even need a PS4 Pro to play those MP games at 60fps...
Bringing up the PS4/PS4Pro framerate equality for fairness is a non-excuse.
 
Battlefield 1 actually nailed the feel of Snipers though. Everybody can get good with snipers on Destiny.

It has bullet drop, a learning curve, a drastically better sniper upgrading / modding system and much longer line of fire on BF1.
Maybe, but that's quite a digression from the point

I like BF1, but it was only an example to make a point
 
Gaf (straw)Man in: The Curious Case of the CPU-bound Video Game! Oversimplified collector's edition

This is a work of fiction. Names, characters, places and incidents either are products of the author’s imagination or are used fictitiously. Any resemblance to actual events or locales or persons, living or dead, is entirely coincidental.

ZFU0SEX.png

Frame rate: 30
What is this? A 30 fps video game! Fret not! Gaf man is here to save the day! Clearly they have sacrificed the fluidity of the game for fancy (checkerboarded) 4K. Let us turn down the resolution to 1080p.

QA3tjvh.png

Frame rate: 30
Alas! That was not enough! We will have to crank it down further! 720p here we go!

fPV1xbm.png

Frame rate: 30
Somehow, this isn't working. I guess we just haven't gone down enough. 480p, here we go!

0Lbjv9L.png

Frame rate: 30
You know what? Graphics are overrated. Destiny 2 would be far better as an artistic experience that replicates blindness. How about we render nothing at all?

N7LDKuG.png

Frame rate: 35
Progress! Gaf man has cracked yet another case!
 

Paragon

Member
True, but I'll happily wager you $10 that Bungie won't implement this feature. You in? The game will be capped at 30 on all consoles.
Who says that it's a feature developers need to implement?
G-Sync just works automatically in PC games going back decades, with no developer support required.
Scorpio might automatically unlock the framerate when you connect a FreeSync/HDMI 2.1 VRR display, in any game that uses a swapinterval of 2 to limit the framerate (1/2 refresh rate V-Sync - which is effectively 30 FPS) rather than implementing a hard 30 FPS cap.
 

KageMaru

Member
Gaf (straw)Man in: The Curious Case of the CPU-bound Video Game! Oversimplified collector's edition

This is a work of fiction. Names, characters, places and incidents either are products of the author’s imagination or are used fictitiously. Any resemblance to actual events or locales or persons, living or dead, is entirely coincidental.

ZFU0SEX.png

Frame rate: 30
What is this? A 30 fps video game! Fret not! Gaf man is here to save the day! Clearly they have sacrificed the fluidity of the game for fancy (checkerboarded) 4K. Let us turn down the resolution to 1080p.

QA3tjvh.png

Frame rate: 30
Alas! That was not enough! We will have to crank it down further! 720p here we go!

fPV1xbm.png

Frame rate: 30
Somehow, this isn't working. I guess we just haven't gone down enough. 480p, here we go!

0Lbjv9L.png

Frame rate: 30
You know what? Graphics are overrated. Destiny 2 would be far better as an artistic experience that replicates blindness. How about we render nothing at all?

N7LDKuG.png

Frame rate: 35
Progress! Gaf man has cracked yet another case!

Lol nice.
 

Zakalwe

Banned
Why would it not be allowed? Developers rarely get involved in the politics of a marketing deal. If the game could hit 60fps on Scorpio, Bungie would likely do it. Problem is the small jump from the Pro to Scorpio CPU isn't going to provide the performance to reach 60fps.

Because many devs want parity between console experiences, they don't want the base level console to be viewed as lesser because it makes up the vast majority of those playing and could affect sales.

They also might even care bout the fairness of their online experience, who knows...
 

AgentP

Thinks mods influence posters politics. Promoted to QAnon Editor.
I don't believe this. Solid 30 on original Destiny on Xbox 360 and PS3 but now it's CPU limits with what looks to be the same engine. I have a feeling it's PS4 Pro being native 4k and they don't want to have the option for 60fps at all because of that.

I agree. They are basically just making their life easier by changing res rather than really trying to optimize. This and they don't want the headache of 30 & 60Hz for PvP on the same system. They should make all consoles 60Hz for PvP, many other games do it without moaning about CPU.
 

kosmologi

Member
I'm not going to believe that games such as Battlefield 1 have less demanding features, and they are able to run at much higher framerates. Bungie's engine clearly isn't mature enough for the hardware. It doesn't look special at all, definitely not the most demanding looking and feeling game out there, which just means that they haven't been able to optimise.

30fps was one of the main reasons I didn't like Destiny 1. In Bungie's previous games that framerate worked adequately, because Halo is slower paced and graphically more austere (in style too, not just tech). Destiny's high tempo gameplay and space magic graphical effects meant that 30fps limit really hurt the experience.
 

Zakalwe

Banned
I'm not going to believe that games such as Battlefield 1 have less demanding features, and they are able to run at much higher framerates. Bungie's engine clearly isn't mature enough for the hardware. It doesn't look special at all, definitely not the most demanding looking and feeling game out there, which just means that they haven't been able to optimise.

30fps was one of the main reasons I didn't like Destiny 1. In Bungie's previous games that framerate worked adequately, because Halo is slower paced and graphically more austere (in style too, not just tech). Destiny's high tempo gameplay and space magic graphical effects meant that 30fps limit really hurt the experience.

Destiny's tempo is absolutely fine for 30fps. I've never known a console game get as many comments from PC players about how "good the 30fps feels here" (anecdotal, so take as you will).
 

Hux1ey

Banned
30fps was one of the main reasons I didn't like Destiny 1. In Bungie's previous games that framerate worked adequately, because Halo is slower paced and graphically more austere (in style too, not just tech). Destiny's high tempo gameplay and space magic graphical effects meant that 30fps limit really hurt the experience.

Is Destiny really more fast paced than Halo 2?

Destiny's tempo is absolutely fine for 30fps. I've never known a console game get as many comments from PC players about how "good the 30fps feels here" (anecdotal, so take as you will).

It's probably as good as 30fps can feel for sure, which still isn't all that great IMO.
 

Renekton

Member
I'm not going to believe that games such as Battlefield 1 have less demanding features, and they are able to run at much higher framerates. Bungie's engine clearly isn't mature enough for the hardware. It doesn't look special at all, definitely not the most demanding looking and feeling game out there, which just means that they haven't been able to optimise.
Do you know that BF1's engine got adapted for a cinematic RPG-shooter which is Mass Effect Andromeda? Performance became sub-30fps with stutter on consoles.
 
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