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[WaffleTaco]

The only thing I probably wouldn't have liked if she was a PoV in the first 3 books would've been her reaction to constantly winning up until Joffrey's death.

I'm in agreement. I also would love PoV's of a bunch of other charcters, is that they have to have something interesting in them. I do wonder if GRRM does ever finish the books he would edit them, adding new points of view and maybe removing some. I think he would add Robb's first and foremost.

So is a world of ice and fire a novel or a book that explores the lore? that's kinda the vibe i'm getting

It's a book that explains the lore. It's pretty interesting.

 

[Donthizz#]

Danny's genes must be all messed up because of inbreeding right? Rhaegar turned out fine so there's a high likelihood that she will go crazy as well. 😔

 

[WaffleTaco]

Danny's genes must be all messed up because of inbreeding right? Rhaegar turned out fine so there's a high likelihood that she will go crazy as well. 😔

I believe that most people say when they quote Targaryen incest, that it's two sides of the same coin, madness or greatness.

 

[The Artisan]

It's not a novel.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=921478

It's a book that explains the lore. It's pretty interesting.

I'll definitely check it out.

 

[Fuzzy]

I'll definitely check it out.

That thread I linked to has a couple links to samples in the OP and where to read others.

 

[The Artisan]

That thread I linked to has a couple links to samples in the OP and where to read others.

would it be better to finish the series first or it doesn't really matter?

edit: nvm I'll just bump your other thread

 

[Turin]

On the Brienne subject. Other than the world building, gravedigger scene, brutal fights and the encounter with Lady Stoneheart, I recall really enjoying the way GRRM induced a moody haunted atmosphere that often accompanied this purposeful road warrior with a chip on her shoulder. It doesn't matter that she was on a wild goose chase.

 

[Gigglepoo]

Brienne always seemed like the point of Feast. We followed all the important people during The War of the Five Kings but we finally got to see the real cost of that fighting in Brienne's walk through the Riverlands. ASoIaF is strongly anti-war and at no point is that theme stronger than when you see that destruction first hand.

 

[Human Trashcan]

You're both right but you're also both wrong because Brienne's chapters don't have Important Plot in them and thus can't be good, sorry I don't make up the rules of good writing

 

[Cpt.Underpants]

Danny's genes must be all messed up because of inbreeding right? Rhaegar turned out fine so there's a high likelihood that she will go crazy as well. ��

In the world of ice and fire incestuous relationships doesn't result in genetic erosion its either as the other poster said. Greatness or madness

I'm not cool with Jon and Danny marrying though.

 

[WaffleTaco]

Do you guys feel as if Brienne being removed would make the series better? I am thinking of cutting some characters out as I read next time. Quentyn, and Dany so far...(because I am doing a separate Dany re-read).

 

[Human Trashcan]

Do you guys feel as if Brienne being removed would make the series better? I am thinking of cutting some characters out as I read next time. Quentyn, and Dany so far...(because I am doing a separate Dany re-read).

Absolutely. I'm thinking of instead of re-reading the books next time, I'll just read the wiki plot summary. I feel it's just really more efficient and a better way of getting straight to the only thing that matters: pure plot, baby. awoooo

 

[WaffleTaco]

Absolutely. I'm thinking of instead of re-reading the books next time, I'll just read the wiki plot summary. I feel it's just really more efficient and a better way of getting straight to the only thing that matters: pure plot, baby. awoooo

I read the wiki plot if I can't remember important details lol. And it's not because of more plot, it is just an interesting way to read it. I know the story pretty well, and I am trying to play around with the character perspectives. Cutting Brienne does a few things. One, we have no idea that the Hound is alive, we also don't know what happened to Pod, and Lady Stoneheart isn't mentioned in story. If Winds of Winter was out, it would make more sense, because as reader we would be experiencing Lady Stoneheart through Jamie's eyes for the "first" time instead of Brienne. However, this all depends on what happens to that plot in Winds. As of right now, the Brienne plot is mostly world-building, and while it is good writing, it is pretty inconsequential at the moment compared to many other plots.

 

[The Artisan]

Danny's genes must be all messed up because of inbreeding right? Rhaegar turned out fine so there's a high likelihood that she will go crazy as well. 😔

The homo sapiens on whatever planet ASOIAF takes place, have genealogy that works very different from what we know. In reality, or at least, on our planet earth, the Targaryens would've stopped exist centuries ago.

You can't just keep on inbreeding, and...survive. You can't. There's not enough genetic variability, so it just is too close to asexual reproduction because of the similarities.

 

[Tripon]

The homo sapiens on whatever planet ASOIAF takes place, have genealogy that works very different from what we know. In reality, or at least, on our planet earth, the Targaryens would've stopped exist centuries ago.

You can't just keep on inbreeding, and...survive. You can't. There's not enough genetic variability, so it just is too close to asexual reproduction because of the similarities.

This can't be a serious post.

 

[Jigorath]

Danny's genes must be all messed up because of inbreeding right? Rhaegar turned out fine so there's a high likelihood that she will go crazy as well. 😔

Dany's already crazy.

Crazy in love.

 

[jfkgoblue]

The homo sapiens on whatever planet ASOIAF takes place, have genealogy that works very different from what we know. In reality, or at least, on our planet earth, the Targaryens would've stopped exist centuries ago.

You can't just keep on inbreeding, and...survive. You can't. There's not enough genetic variability, so it just is too close to asexual reproduction because of the similarities.

Thats not how it works...

The reason incest is bad is that when your genectic makeup is so close, you are more likely to have bad matching regressive genes= more likely for mutations to occur. I don't know how you connected that to centuries of incest would cause a line to die out. Hell, look at the European Royal families... they are mostly products of incest.

 

[Speevy]

Once you reach a threshold of regular incest-bred Targaryens, you start having secret Targaryens.


You'll wake up and one is in Winterfell, another is in King's Landing, a third is a maester at Castle Black. It's crazy.

Always three there are.

 

[The Artisan]

Thats not how it works...

The reason incest is bad is that when your genectic makeup is so close, you are more likely to have bad matching regressive genes= more likely for mutations to occur. I don't know how you connected that to centuries of incest would cause a line to die out. Hell, look at the European Royal families... they are mostly products of incest.

well I think the reason for that is because inbreeding is too similar to asexual reproduction - in that it's the same genetic variability being used to reproduce.

As for the European Royal families, there was this one guy - I think his name was Charles II. Dude's mother and father were uncle and niece and he himself wasn't able to produce any heirs...so his lineage died out. And that was just one or two generations. The Targaryens have been doing incest for like what, five generations? In reality they wouldn't have lasted 5 damn generations.

This can't be a serious post.

It is

In 1679, the 18-year-old Charles II was married to 17-year-old Marie Louise of Orléans (1662–1689), eldest daughter of Philippe I, Duke of Orléans (the only sibling of Louis XIV) and his first wife Henrietta of England. At that time, Marie Louise was known as a lovely young woman. It is likely that Charles was impotent, and no children were born. Marie Louise became deeply depressed and died at 27, ten years after their marriage, leaving the 28-year-old Charles heartbroken.

Still in desperate need of a male heir, the next year he married the 23-year-old Palatine princess Maria Anna of Neuburg, a daughter of Philip William, Elector Palatine, and sister-in-law of his uncle Leopold I, Holy Roman Emperor. However, this marriage was no more successful than the first in producing the much-desired heir.

 

[jett]

The homo sapiens on whatever planet ASOIAF takes place, have genealogy that works very different from what we know. In reality, or at least, on our planet earth, the Targaryens would've stopped exist centuries ago.

You can't just keep on inbreeding, and...survive. You can't. There's not enough genetic variability, so it just is too close to asexual reproduction because of the similarities.

You know, the targ's "tradition" is based on historical, royal inbred families. The Ptolemaic dynasty lasted three centuries. And it didn't die because brothers were fucking their sisters.

 

[The Artisan]

You know, the targ's "tradition" is based on historical, royal inbred families. The Ptolemaic dynasty lasted three centuries. And it didn't die because brothers were fucking their sisters.

But how many generations did those historical royal inbred families last? I just provided an example of one that died out after a few generations.

 

[jfkgoblue]

well I think the reason for that is because inbreeding is too similar to asexual reproduction - in that it's the same genetic variability being used to reproduce.

As for the European Royal families, there was this one guy - I think his name was Charles II. Dude's mother and father were uncle and niece and he himself wasn't able to produce any heirs...so his lineage died out. And that was just one or two generations. The Targaryens have been doing incest for like what, five generations? In reality they wouldn't have lasted 5 damn generations.It is

One person being sterile doesn't prove anything considering there are plenty of cases of inbred families lasting generations.

Also your example is a case that lasted almost 200 years

 

[The Artisan]

One person being sterile doesn't prove anything considering there are plenty of cases of inbred families lasting generations.

So show me one that lasted longer.

 

[Fuzzy]

But how many generations did those historical royal inbred families last? I just provided an example of one that died out after a few generations.

You ignore that the Targs weren't exclusively incestuous.

 

[Tripon]

Please take a science class on inheriteable traits.

 

[WaffleTaco]

One person being sterile doesn't prove anything considering there are plenty of cases of inbred families lasting generations.

Like the Hills Have Eyes (who are you to judge?) people, they were there for so long, the documentary was so freaky!

 

[The Artisan]

You ignore that the Targs weren't exclusively incestuous.

i'm not ignoring that. the reality is that several generations of them have been incestuous and I don't think they would have lasted long if they did. Inbreeding is thought to be one of the reasons the neanderthals became extinct.

Please take a science class on inheriteable traits.

Why would I do that when I can learn about it right here on GAF

 

[Speevy]

It's gross to have sex with your family members and probably associated with a lot of horrible or illegal practices, but I'm not sure if there's some hard science that disqualifies the Targaryen dynasty from happening in real life.

It is unlikely that such a match would produce an Emilia Clarke, however.

 

[Basileus777]

Incest over many generations severely increases the risk of expressing physical and cognitive disabilities from recessive alleles, but it's not a guarantee of infertility. The Targs should probably be unhealthy with a tendency for certain deformities (harelip Targs would be funny), but they could exist and survive.

 

[The Artisan]

It's gross to have sex with your family members and probably associated with a lot of horrible or illegal practices, but I'm not sure if there's some hard science that disqualifies the Targaryen dynasty from happening in real life.

It is unlikely that such a match would produce an Emilia Clarke, however.

I try not to be judgmental about it; I don't think you should ever hook up with your sibling or your parent, but I know people in real life married to their cousins who have kids, and they're decent people so...it is not in my place to judge.

That's cousins though, I guess cousins are distant enough to make it okay.

Incest over many generations severely increases the risk of expressing genetic deformities from recessive alleles, but it's not a guarantee of infertility.

Alright, fair enough. Incest won't always lead to infertility but it'll lead to other problems that could end the line anyways.

 

[Speevy]

Lysa Arryn breastfeeding her 11 year old weakling son is more along the lines of what you'd get with inbreeding.

 

[WaffleTaco]

Lysa Arryn breastfeeding her 11 year old weakling son is more along the lines of what you'd get with inbreeding.

That's what happens when you mate with Littlefinger

 

[The Artisan]

That's what happens when you mate with Littlefinger

i've heard that theory of Robin being Petyr's son but the thing is...that would be sad because that mean House Arryn is extinct too.

edit: wait a minute, Robin was already 11 that first time we see him when Cat gets there with prisoner Tyrion???

 

[Basileus777]

Alright, fair enough. Incest won't always lead to infertility but it'll lead to other problems that could end the line anyways.

It could. Many generations of inbreeding between siblings is likely to turn out really badly.

 

[jfkgoblue]

i've heard that theory of Robin being Petyr's son but the thing is...that would be sad because that mean House Arryn is extinct too.

In the books, Arryn is the only house that is even near extinct, and it brings up a convlouted succesion if Robert were to die(which LF of course plans to use to his own gain) and we see Alayne(Sansa) off to woo Harry the Heir.

 

[Jigorath]

Why would I do that when I can learn about it right here on GAF

University ain't got shit on us.

 

[The Artisan]

It could. Many generations of inbreeding between siblings is likely to turn out really badly.

word, so it's not necessarily infertility (i'm not sure if I said that explicitly) but either way because of what inbreeding does to a family line, on our planet the Targaryens wouldn't have survived the generations.

In the books, Arryn is the only house that is even near extinct, and it brings up a convlouted succesion if Robert were to die(which LF of course plans to use to his own gain) and we see Alayne(Sansa) off to woo Harry the Heir.

That's vastly different from the show where the Houses Tyrell, Martell (I think), and Baratheon (almost) has gone extinct. Although some of these events happen passed the books so maybe GRRM will have it so that all these characters won't be gone.

Harry the Heir is another Arryn?

 

[jfkgoblue]

word, so it's not necessarily infertility (i'm not sure if I said that explicitly) but either way because of what inbreeding does to a family line, on our planet the Targaryens wouldn't have survived the generations.
That's vastly different from the show where the Houses Tyrell, Martell (I think), and Baratheon (almost) has gone extinct. Although some of these events happen passed the books so maybe GRRM will have it so that all these characters won't be gone.

Harry the Heir is another Arryn?

It's mostly because Mace Tyrell has 3 sons in the books, but we never see his elder sons, only Loras who is a part of the Kingsguard anyway, Doran has 2 sons and a daughter(his heir), etc.

Harry isn't an Arryn, but would take on the Arryn house name if he becomes Lord of the Vale. Its super convoluted though.

 

[Basileus777]

There are a ton of Tyrells out there, but the Baratheons are likely to go extinct. Once Stannis is dead there will be no more legitimately born male Baratheons. Gendry somehow getting legitimized and given land is pretty much their last remaining hope.

 

[jfkgoblue]

There are a ton of Tyrells out there, but the Baratheons are likely to go extinct. Once Stannis is dead there will be no more legitimately born male Baratheons. Gendry somehow getting legitimized and given land is pretty much their last remaining hope.

I think they would just legitimize Edric Storm as both his parents are highborn to continue the Baratheon line.

 

[The Artisan]

It's mostly because Mace Tyrell has 3 sons in the books, but we never see his elder sons, only Loras who is a part of the Kingsguard anyway, Doran has 2 sons and a daughter(his heir), etc.

My prediction then is that in some way shape or form, the Tyrells & Martells make it assed the burning of the sept that happened on the show.

For the GOT storyline it was a way for Cersei to get rid of people she wants dead. Although I haven't gotten nearly far enough but I'm guessing by this point in the story the story has diverged away to the point where the arcs are in different places for everyone except Cersei. Is that the case? Is Margery still betrothed to the King in the books?

Harry isn't an Arryn, but would take on the Arryn house name if he becomes Lord of the Vale. Its super convoluted though.

If he isn't an Arryn then what claim would he have to be Lord of the Vale? I suppose this is where the convolution comes in

 

[WaffleTaco]

i've heard that theory of Robin being Petyr's son but the thing is...that would be sad because that mean House Arryn is extinct too.

edit: wait a minute, Robin was already 11 that first time we see him when Cat gets there with prisoner Tyrion???

House Arryn will probably go extinct in the books. Robin/Robert is as good as dead (which is why Robin being Littlefinger's son in the show makes more sense...his sigil is a damn Mockingjay)

In the books, Arryn is the only house that is even near extinct, and it brings up a convlouted succesion if Robert were to die(which LF of course plans to use to his own gain) and we see Alayne(Sansa) off to woo Harry the Heir.

Starks are actually pretty close from the male line (Bran becoming a tree, Rickon with Cannibals). Baratheon's are pretty close (not counting Tommen and Myrcella). Tully's are pretty close as well I believe. Lannister's are slowly dying out. Tyrells could be eventually gone, same with Martells. Targaryens are almost extinct...until Jon Snow and Faegon show up.

 

[electroshockwave]

Shireen's not dead in the books yet.

 

[The Artisan]

House Arryn will probably go extinct in the books. Robin/Robert is as good as dead (which is why Robin being Littlefinger's son in the show makes more sense...his sigil is a damn Mockingjay)

If Robin really is Petyr's child then I'll care about him less. The only reason I want that boy to have a happy ending is because (I thought) he was the heir to Jon Arryn and I don't want the Arryn line dying out. But if Robin ain't his then it's already dead.

Starks are actually pretty close from the male line (Bran becoming a tree, Rickon with Cannibals). Baratheon's are pretty close (not counting Tommen and Myrcella). Tully's are pretty close as well I believe. Lannister's are slowly dying out. Tyrells could be eventually gone, same with Martells. Targaryens are almost extinct...until Jon Snow and Faegon show up.

What the hell is Rickon doing with cannibals?? I thought he was with the Umbers???

 

[jfkgoblue]

House Arryn will probably go extinct in the books. Robin/Robert is as good as dead (which is why Robin being Littlefinger's son in the show makes more sense...his sigil is a damn Mockingjay)



Starks are actually pretty close from the male line (Bran becoming a tree, Rickon with Cannibals). Baratheon's are pretty close (not counting Tommen and Myrcella). Tully's are pretty close as well I believe. Lannister's are slowly dying out. Tyrells could be eventually gone, same with Martells. Targaryens are almost extinct...until Jon Snow and Faegon show up.

The Starks aren't that close because they can still continue with the female line and there is record of that happening in the past. Tully's aren't really, Edmure is still around and he already has an heir via his marriage to Rosalyn Frey. Tyrells have 2 sons besides Loras to continue the line and the Martells have both Arienne and Tristane still (some people even believe Quentyn is still around). Really it is only the Baratheons that are in real danger at the moment of going extinct, but like I said, Edric Storm is Robert's son with a highborn lady, so it would be pretty easy to legitimize him.

What the hell is Rickon doing with cannibals?? I thought he was with the Umbers???

Davos was told by Wymen Manderly that Rickon was hiding out on Skagos under protection of the northern houses while they pay lip service to the Boltons. Stannis plans to use him as Warden of the North after Jon refused the offer.

 

[Bounceounce]

My prediction then is that in some way shape or form, the Tyrells & Martells make it assed the burning of the sept that happened on the show.

For the GOT storyline it was a way for Cersei to get rid of people she wants dead. Although I haven't gotten nearly far enough but I'm guessing by this point in the story the story has diverged away to the point where the arcs are in different places for everyone except Cersei. Is that the case? Is Margery still betrothed to the King in the books?
If he isn't an Arryn then what claim would he have to be Lord of the Vale? I suppose this is where the convolution comes in

We actually do see one of Maces other sons, Garlan.
We've seen him a few times, he's a great character (though weve only seen him like three times max) and was actually the person who wore Renlys armor in the book, not Loras.
He's also a better swordsman than Loras (even according to Loras) and according to Grrm is supposed to have a big role in Winds.

 

[jfkgoblue]

We actually do see one of Maces other sons, Garlan.
We've seen him a few times, he's a great character (though weve only seen him three times) and was actually the person who wore Renlys armor in the book, not Loras.
He's also a better swordsman than Loras (even according to Loras) and according to Grrm is supposed to have a big role in Winds.

Oh yeah, and Willis is the heir who is a cripple that never leaves Highgarden in the books.(He is also who the Tyrells were planning to marry Sansa too)

 

[ForkNetwork]

Oh yeah, and Willis is the heir who is a cripple that never leaves Highgarden in the books.(He is also who the Tyrells were planning to marry Sansa too)

Im so sad Willas and Garlan got cut, they were really interesting characters and I'm sure they will play a role in future books

Spoiler

whenever George finishes them

 

[Gigglepoo]

"I think you're sabotaging my war to help your brother and sister!"

"Can I come with when you ambush my brother with a dragon?"

"Sure!"

 

[Speevy]

Maybe Dany brought Tyrion along so she could let him watch helplessly as she burned his brother alive.

That's kind of fucked up.