kitsunelaine
Banned
By that logic Bernie is the worst primary candidate of all time because he couldn't beat Hillary who couldn't beat Trump.
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Vox: Hillary Clinton "Unleashed" interview w/ Ezra Klein
- Thread starter nynt9
- Start date
By that logic Bernie is the worst primary candidate of all time because he couldn't beat Hillary who couldn't beat Trump.
TWrecks310
Banned
Anyone who does the centrist bullshit needs to get out of politics.
Stand for something for Christ's sake.
Stand for something for Christ's sake.
No, it's because our primaries system is fucked.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I won't disagree, but how did it specifically fuck over Bernie? Not enough caucuses?
What does this mean? Who are these "centrists" in this conversation and what are they refusing to take a position on?
TWrecks310
Banned
I don't want to pull out the "Bernie would have won rhetoric, but just because he lost the primary absolutely does not mean he would have lost the general election.
The same goes for every candidate FYI.
Needs more center center, and some center up & some center down.
kitsunelaine
Banned
Suuuuure it is. I bet you also want Hillary to take all the blame for her loss.
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
It's easier to just ignore context and hate.
jack_package_200
Banned
Seriously. The person with the most votes/elected delegates get the nomination. Its so unfair.
TWrecks310
Banned
She said it herself that she believes America works best when it's somewhere between the center-left and center-right.
The other part was my animosity towards centrists in general, it wasn't anything specifically to do with her.
That implies that both sides are relatively equal and that there is an argument worth having to find the best solution.
My point is, if she truly believed in liberal ideas she wouldn't say something like that.
Ninja Scooter
Member
Any more than the electoral college system is fucked?
Yes, but that's the philosophical, theoretical point she's making, and follows it up by saying how it seems like that idyllic notion may no longer hold in modern politics, despite her best wishes.
toadsworth
Banned
Hillary is a perfectly fine politician but she lost the most important election in my lifetime so I'm gonna hate her a little bit.
TWrecks310
Banned
I know what she's trying to say, I'm saying that that belief is a myth, because one side is clearly better than the other and frankly has been for a long time.
Shhhh! You're getting in the way of irrational hate.
Hey, remember the '80s?
InstigateAndInquire
Member
I like how she pointed out she's against the Electoral College and brought up the fact she won places that hold 2/3 of the nation's economy.
I always wondered if she had something to say about it. Yeah, she knew how the game was played and should've played accordingly but she can still point out how wrong it is.
kitsunelaine
Banned
If you actually read what she is saying you'll realise that she agrees with you.
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
It requires someone to be a centrist to hold that kind of viewpoint!
Also, that viewpoint is wrong and has always been wrong! There was never any time where fierce political opposites were friendly and hashed out compromise solutions that worked better than more ideologically cohesive policies. Politics is about seizing power and using that power to enact your vision of society and the distribution of resources. We didn't end child labor because there was a long compromised discussion of whether child labor laws should be put into place by well-meaning parties on both sides, they were created because working people organized, gained political power, and exerted that power to create their vision of society.
ultratruman
Banned
Well I've got good news...
Evil Monkey DTT
Banned
Everything I hate Hillary for I hate because of the people that worked for her rather then herself. But honestly, after this election is hard to place my hate on anything with her, we have trump as president my attention is filled. I do think we need change in the democratic party but honestly, I'm not looking a gift horse in the mouth at the voting poll.
Also I voted for Hillary so if I did get to sleep at night, it wouldn't have a trace of guilt on it.
Also I voted for Hillary so if I did get to sleep at night, it wouldn't have a trace of guilt on it.
I still like Sanders policy ideas tho, I'm a bastard.
Slackerish
Member
Please share with us this good news!
TWrecks310
Banned
Guys, one side wants universal health care, the other does not. One side wants everyone to vote, the other does not. One side is working towards racial equality, and the other is fighting against it. The list goes on and on.
If you try to go center on this it turns into only some people getting health care, some people getting to vote, and letting racism persist in some forms. It's never been different than this, and trying to play both sides only holds the country back.
If you try to go center on this it turns into only some people getting health care, some people getting to vote, and letting racism persist in some forms. It's never been different than this, and trying to play both sides only holds the country back.
Isn't the public option a more centrist position than single payer? I was under the impression that this was a splitting point between Democrats who are more centrist vs more leftist.
This is more an idealist vs realist split.
TWrecks310
Banned
If she thinks that under any scenario that the center is the best option, she doesn't agree with me.
Single payer is the further left option yeah, I was just trying to make my point clear I wasn't thinking about the language for defining health care plans to be honest.
-Plasma Reus-
Service guarantees member status
You better be honest and point out here that the Sanders side is all about labelling racism as economic anxiety. If he have been as good as Hilary he would have labelled Trump voters as deplorable. Instead he goes around talking about economic anxiety. Fuck that shit.
I listened to the Pod Save America interview and thought it was pretty good, it went over some of the same topics in the OP. Her worries about the future of US politics were very interesting. I think she makes good points about Bernie's proposals and its kind of why I think its good that he's rolling out his single payer plan now and its actually being taken seriously by many Democrats. It needs to be out there for the details to be debated on and worked out. I think/hope it will end up looking a lot better in 2020 when primary candidates actually have a specific plan to take a stand on instead of just the nebulous "do you support single-payer?" question.
I'll give this interview a listen tomorrow.
I'll give this interview a listen tomorrow.
TWrecks310
Banned
I agree with you, fuck Bernie for saying that. I don't remember at what point of the election cycle it was when he said that, but it was obvious he was saying it to get more support and I hate him for doing that.
For the record though, everything I've been saying has nothing to do with Bernie, if we're going to define it I guess I'm talking about centrist-dems versus leftist-dems.
-Plasma Reus-
Service guarantees member status
Good shit.
Crazy how it wasn't totally fucked when Obama won in 2008, but is now fucked. Or did it magically unfuck itself for a single election then fuck itself again?
Goes hard against Trump? "Bitchy, cranky old woman!" Avoids attacking Trump? "Timid woman incapable of leadership!" Takes the high road? "Wow this bitch thinks she's just so much better than us!"
There really wasn't a winning strategy for her to employ. While I personally find it cathartic to see her be open and honest, I can understand why the Democratic Party pushed for the approach that they did regardless of if I disagree with it or not.
Muppet of a Man
Member
I think Ezra hit the nail on the head when he said that her campaign failed by looking too much through the technocratic lens of having to navigate the nitty gritty of politics and political institutions and of being bound by it. This "incremental realism" was very limiting for her and the long-term vision she was trying to sell.
Also, I still can't really clearly tell where she stands on decentralization of wealth and power. She definitely wants the poor, working class, and middle class to have a better quality of life, but I'm not sure she is willing to go as far as to make the wealthy primarily accountable for this, though they should be as they are pulling the levers that got us into this mess in the first place from a financial perspective. They are stacking the cards against everyone else by relentlessly trying to fix the game through lobbying for laws that give them a massive, incontrovertible advantage to keeping and maintaining their wealth and power indefinitely and beyond that, consolidating it even further.
The system itself needs reforms to close the loopholes that enable the wealthy to do this in the first place. If she too has this stance, I would have liked her to be more forthcoming about it and what she intended to do about it. Because that is the ultimate end game from the perspective of maintaining a high quality of life for the most Americans possible.
I think the reign of the Rockefellers, Carnegies, Buffets, Gates, Jobs, Zuckerbergs, etc. of the world, regardless of how well-intentioned they may be with their philanthropy, must come to an end. The enabling of such accumulation of wealth, influence, and power is incredibly troubling and culturally, most still laud it. People's ideas should be lauded, not their cult of personality. As long as we enable and encourage such uneven distribution of wealth and power, we are doomed to be a divided, manipulated, exploitable nation of individuals.
Also, I still can't really clearly tell where she stands on decentralization of wealth and power. She definitely wants the poor, working class, and middle class to have a better quality of life, but I'm not sure she is willing to go as far as to make the wealthy primarily accountable for this, though they should be as they are pulling the levers that got us into this mess in the first place from a financial perspective. They are stacking the cards against everyone else by relentlessly trying to fix the game through lobbying for laws that give them a massive, incontrovertible advantage to keeping and maintaining their wealth and power indefinitely and beyond that, consolidating it even further.
The system itself needs reforms to close the loopholes that enable the wealthy to do this in the first place. If she too has this stance, I would have liked her to be more forthcoming about it and what she intended to do about it. Because that is the ultimate end game from the perspective of maintaining a high quality of life for the most Americans possible.
I think the reign of the Rockefellers, Carnegies, Buffets, Gates, Jobs, Zuckerbergs, etc. of the world, regardless of how well-intentioned they may be with their philanthropy, must come to an end. The enabling of such accumulation of wealth, influence, and power is incredibly troubling and culturally, most still laud it. People's ideas should be lauded, not their cult of personality. As long as we enable and encourage such uneven distribution of wealth and power, we are doomed to be a divided, manipulated, exploitable nation of individuals.
Watched the whole video and this stood out.
What the center right to center left represents in America today is a lot different.
If you constantly operate in that space and don't find to swing the pendulum the other way you will constantly trend to the right. It's what has happened since Reagan took office.
And_Gignac
Member
Al Gore was worse. John Kerry? pff, terrible. All the 80s candidates? terrible too. She was a great candidate, but not the candidate needed at the moment.
Intheflorsh
Banned
I think this was worth listening too, she's absolutely right about how the media portrayed her and how devastating voter suppression is towards our electoral process. Erza's point about being "too" realistic in terms of goals and vision was compelling as well. I did roll my eyes at her categorically denying that taking money from special interests had any influence on her decision making. Maybe it's a political necessity, but, consciously or not, it's going to have an effect.
60million+ Americans voted for someone who admitted on tape to sexual assault, and was (still is) a proven racist who questioned the first African-American President's birth country.
Hillary had issues, but Trump voters have wayyyyyyyy more issues than she'll ever have.
AmayaPapaya
Banned
Not true at all. In 2008 Obama got 17,535,458 votes, Hillary got 17,822,145. Also, Bernie got far more votes than Hillary in Wyoming, I believe, and he got the same delegates. I think that story carried over from another state, as well.
That particular issue is still present.
UselessNapkin
Member
Obama wasn't even on the ballet for a few states like Michigan in the 2008 primary and the Wyoming thing was a byproduct of the delegates were split proportionally with the vote.
AmayaPapaya
Banned
So, what you're saying is, the rules didn't allow the person with the most votes to win.
Wendel Clark
Member
both sides btw
Bruce Springsteen
Member
Shes still the biggest star for the party, I could see it happening
Using this logic you can also say she might not have lost the election to another GOP candidate. People who hate Hillary love to toss around that Trump was a terrible candidate while conveniently ignoring the nationalist, populist white superiority message he tapped into.
Angelus Errare
Banned
Even if he got Wyoming flat out, he gave Hillary the south. Much like Hillary gave Trump the midwest.
elrechazado
Banned
Not enough votes
chaos789
Banned
I have not seen this interview yet. But does she take any responsibility yet for losing the election? I read somewhere perhaps it was the Washington Post where they talked about her book and how she directly attributes blame to Sanders, Biden, and Obama. Maybe if she campaigned more in those rust belt states and actually sat and talked to people perhaps she wins. Just saying hanging out with Jay Z and Beyonce is not gonna get people who are struggling to vote for you. As a Sanders supporter I did the responsible thing and voted for Clinton. There was no way in hell I was gonna vote for the con man or the pothead or the crazy hippie.
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