Support NeoGAF

[Prithee Be Careful]

I'd guess that adding dynamic* weather to FM7 over FM6 takes it toll on the XB1. They'd have to find the resources somewhere.

Also, this thread is embarrasing to read at times.

Would that really nerf the colour levels and lighting to that extreme though? I know there are certain overheads with features like dynamic weather, but - for example - DC added a hugely complex dynamic weather system without tanking a single frame. I know engines are diffierent and all, but it seems like huge step back...

 

[Synth]

Would that really nerf the colour levels and lighting to that extreme though? I know there are certain overheads with features like dynamic weather, but - for example - DC added a hugely complex dynamic weather system without tanking a single frame. I know engines are diffierent and all, but it seems like huge step back...

Well, Driveclub didn't really add a weather system without tanking a frame... it's more that they were initially aiming for 60fps, but then settled for 30fps later in development, so there was basically 30 frames tanked providing headroom. It's the same reason Forza Horizon 3 can get away with so much more than the Motorsport games can.

It's obviously not a great comparison (especially as Evolution was shuttered before it), but the only 60fps version of Driveclub that exists is Driveclub VR... and it's not like that didn't bring some serious sacrifices (the entirety of the weather system for one).

 

[Prithee Be Careful]

Well, Driveclub didn't really add a weather system without tanking a frame... it's more that they were initially aiming for 60fps, but then settled for 30fps later in development, so there was basically 30 frames tanked providing headroom. It's the same reason Forza Horizon 3 can get away with so much more than the Motorsport games can.

It's obviously not a great comparison (especially as Evolution was shuttered before it), but the only 60fps version of Driveclub that exists is Driveclub VR... and it's not like that didn't bring some serious sacrifices (the entirety of the weather system for one).

This literally makes no sense...

 

[Synth]

This literally makes no sense...

Really? I thought it was simple enough.

 

[AbandonedTrolley]

Well, Driveclub didn't really add a weather system without tanking a frame... it's more that they were initially aiming for 60fps, but then settled for 30fps later in development, so there was basically 30 frames tanked providing headroom. It's the same reason Forza Horizon 3 can get away with so much more than the Motorsport games can.

It's obviously not a great comparison (especially as Evolution was shuttered before it), but the only 60fps version of Driveclub that exists is Driveclub VR... and it's not like that didn't bring some serious sacrifices (the entirety of the weather system for one).

Not only that but it also brought VR to to the table, but yeah it lost a lot of it's glitz and glam. But my god once you're in the drivers seat you seem to forget the low resolution racing and just get on with it. Worst thing is night racing which is just a lottery with the bad view distance.

 

[onQ123]

FM7 is a wierd one - graphically it seems to be a genuine step back over previous iterations (particularly the lack of colour depth) and it's really hard to see why because Turn 10 have never been slouches in the graphics department.

I think the changes was made because the game is being made for 3 platforms this time around.

 

[MilkyJoe]

Why did you take a screenshot of a YT video when the screenshot before was PNG without compression?

Because it's the only way I could find a like for like snap, duh

Is that picture ment to be better?

Is this supposed to be a massive improvement?

Edit: beaten.

eyeroll.gif

FM7 is a wierd one - graphically it seems to be a genuine step back over previous iterations (particularly the lack of colour depth) and it's really hard to see why because Turn 10 have never been slouches in the graphics department.

Anyone that thinks this is either never played it or is just taking the piss.

 

[l2ounD]

Because clearer is better?

That's not to say that it becomes better than the GT shot (which could likely be clearer also), but it definitely looks better than the first FM7 shot. You can for example see that there are grass details, rather then a completely undefined green soup 5cm from the camera.

I'm not typically fond of attempting direct like-for-like comparisons where there are inherent variables regardless though. The main thing that makes the GT image look better to me is the lighting, that whilst partially is a result of GT having better lighting in general, it's also quite clearly not attempting to portray the same ToD. Using this comparison you could almost make the arguement that GT looks better than the real thing, based on the real-life picture posted.

Well yeah but the point was it doesnt help the comparison.

What is the ToD in Forza? I cant really tell.

 

[Synth]

Not only that but it also brought VR to to the table, but yeah it lost a lot of it's glitz and glam. But my god once you're in the drivers seat you seem to forget the low resolution racing and just get on with it. Worst thing is night racing which is just a lottery with the bad view distance.

Yea, as I said it's a pretty shaky comparison as outputting to PSVR and outputting standard 1080p60 aren't really the same thing.

The main point was that adding graphical features without tanking frames is more difficult for Forza Motorsport, because it has twice as many frames to potentially drop.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

It is Pro but the IQ is way better and there are more details in the actual build compared with Beta.

GTS’s IQ is right now ahead any other racing game on consoles... of course we need to see Forza 7, pCARs 2, etc running on XB1X yet.

Even then, none of those games can nail a realistic look like GTS does.

Forza 7 vs GT Sport beta
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGwwBokHLeU

Yo what is up with the Forza car sliding all over the place. They seriously messed up the physics in this game?

 

[AbandonedTrolley]

Yea, as I said it's a pretty shaky comparison as outputting to PSVR and outputting standard 1080p60 aren't really the same thing.

The main point was that adding graphical features without tanking frames is more difficult for Forza Motorspoty, because it has twice as many frames to potentially drop.

Yep, as you said, the engine had already been compromised as such in not getting to 60 with their vision for the weather, what they did was stick with their vision give themselves a seemingly load of overhead so that once they threw in the dynamic weather the whole thing still ran flawlessly. If would have been nice if Sony pushed out a Pro patch, maybe unlock the frame rate or even lock to 60 if it were possible.

 

[Synth]

Well yeah but the point was it doesnt help the comparison.

What is the ToD in Forza? I cant really tell.

Anything that better represents any of the discussed games helps the comparisons. It doesn't matter if you think GTS is an 8/10 and FM7 is a 6/10 graphically, if you have shitty pictures at wash any details away the comparisons become pretty much meaningless (well... even moreso than they already tend to be). Ideally we'd all be in the same room viewing the all games directly on the same 4K displays... but with that not being feasible, we should be looking to the highest quality material we can find for each title.

I probably shouldn't have said "ToD", rather than just general time and weather conditions. The FM7 shot shows heavy cloud coverage, which makes its more muted look make sense, as opposed to the GT shot where you can see the blue skies overhead with sporadic clouds, with the sun peaking out from behind them. I don't have either GTS or FM7 atm, so I couldn't tell you if either game would have the available options to approximate the conditions of the other. But in terms of being visually appealing the conditions in the GTS shot have a natural advantage that carries across most games. They've also taken more artistic liberties with the track environment, which causes it to look more fleshed out than even the real track does at that same area.

 

[TBiddy]

Would that really nerf the colour levels and lighting to that extreme though? I know there are certain overheads with features like dynamic weather, but - for example - DC added a hugely complex dynamic weather system without tanking a single frame. I know engines are diffierent and all, but it seems like huge step back...

I was more referring to the (rather small) changes from FM5&6 to FM7. The lightning looks to be the same as always, from what I've seen.

Keep in mind that DC was running 1080p30, whilst running on 40% more powerful hardware. It's not really a fair comparison, comparing DC with FM7 on the XB1. I'd suspect, that when we start seeing the real DF comparisons, FM7 (on XB1X, at least) will run circles around DC.. which is also to be expected, considering the power difference.

But what I'm really looking forward to is to see how thelastword will defend DC. He's a dedicated man, I'll give him that.

 

[MilkyJoe]

Is that picture ment to be better?

I was more referring to the (rather small) changes from FM5&6 to FM7. The lightning looks to be the same as always, from what I've seen.

Keep in mind that DC was running 1080p30, whilst running on 40% more powerful hardware. It's not really a fair comparison, comparing DC with FM7 on the XB1. I'd suspect, that when we start seeing the real DF comparisons, FM7 (on XB1X, at least) will run circles around DC.. which is also to be expected, considering the power difference.

But what I'm really looking forward to is to see how thelastword will defend DC. He's a dedicated man, I'll give him that.

I'm expecting only the finest of cherry picks. It's going to be fabulous.

 

[KageMaru]

You can really tell the difference in image quality on the white road makers on the left.

Well our graphical expert buddy TLW claimed he couldn't notice a difference with the LOD between the two versions. Clearly a master in his class.

not close

60 fps games both targeting 1080p. gt sport has a much faster console as the baseline while also smartly choosing TAA over more expensive msaa. polyphony is also better when it comes to visuals

Do you have a link saying they are using TAA? Last I saw they were using a more standard post process AA. Not saying I don't believe you, this is just the first I'm reading about it.

Also the last sentence is a bit of a reach. IMO the highs are higher but the lows are a bit lower in GT games. They are definitely the top of their game when it comes to lighting and material shaders but other elements like shadows tend to fall a bit short. Forza has been a bit more consistent with the visual package but with the highs not quite reaching what we see in GT. Of course GTS should look noticeably better all around on base hardware. It'll be interesting to the strength and weaknesses on the upper end systems.

 

[cooldawn]

I understand it's a graphics thread, just like I understand the kind of impact framerate has on the graphics. When a 60fps game has 16.6ms to render a frame while a 30fps game has 33.3ms to render the same frame, frame rates should be kept in mind when discussing graphics. Just like it should be noted if a game is open world versus a game using specific courses or tracks. It all impacts the graphics, so it should all matter.

We could take in to account lots of variables but I see no point in games not being included because of a particular frame-rate or any other metric. A good looking game is a good looking game, no matter what anything else represents.

Driveclub and Forza Horizon 3 deserve to be included in this thread because they are both fantastic looking titles that, in some respects, still point the way to how other racing games could look at 60fps in the future.

Right now though, they both look indulgent at 30fps. So be it.

 

[KageMaru]

We could take in to account lots of variables but I see no point in games not being included because of a particular frame-rate or any other metric. A good looking game is a good looking game, no matter what anything else represents.

Driveclub and Forza Horizon 3 deserve to be included in this thread because they are both fantastic looking titles that, in some respects, still point the way to how other racing games could look at 60fps in the future.

Right now though, they both look indulgent at 30fps. So be it.

I completely agree, a good looking game is a good looking game. Like I said before though it's not an apples to apples comparison, which was my main point. Both GTS and Forza 7 would look noticeably better if they targeted 30fps. Even Forza Horizon and DC are difficult to compare because one is open world while the other is on tracks. It's a great way to see how the two design methods differ and impact the final look of the game though.

 

[Kolibri]

Don't really see the point in Driveclub being referenced these days.

Series is dead, developer is gone, it's history.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

Don't really see the point in Driveclub being referenced these days.

Series is dead, developer is gone, it's history.

Because it still has the best weather effects in the genre.

 

[Hoo-doo]

Don't really see the point in Driveclub being referenced these days.

Series is dead, developer is gone, it's history.

But it still outshines every other racing game out there in terms of visuals. If anything, it highlights how crazy talented the now-dead studio was.

 

[AbandonedTrolley]

Don't really see the point in Driveclub being referenced these days.

Series is dead, developer is gone, it's history.

Fuck Geoff Crammond and his racing!

We talk about it because it's recent and still one of the best looking racing games available.

 

[thelastword]

I play DC on my 4k TV and It still looks just as good on a 1080p set or even better.

So do I, but I guess Shandy has a special 4K set where every 1080p game looks awesome on his set except DC. He's made that very statement many times here, but it has never stuck. I guess he believes if he repeats it enough times it might just.

It's odd because I've seen some Forza fans come on here and say "we've had that discussion already and we concluded".......SMH. Soon, we will be reading about conclusions on how DC looks on a 4k screen..

Does forza 7 allow you to sit trackside in your car and watch the day go by and the night to come in? A 24hr cycle like driveclub?

Hmmmmmm.....

Dude just the other day you posted a screenshot highlighting the blurriness of a rock in ROTTR & said "brutal"

One with DOF vs one without DOF for that matter......

any 1080p game is going to have poor IQ on a 4k 50+ inch screen wtf are you even posting this for? driveclub was never designed to play on 4k tvs

Wrong, 1080p games don't look awful on 4k sets automatically. As a matter of fact, 1080p goes into 4k pretty nicely and is equally divisible, now, if it was 720 or 900p, I would understand, but 1080p content looks pretty good on a 4k set......I play DC and SF on my 4k set pretty much everyday, more-so SF and these games look prisitine...

The thing about you guys is that you never quote what people say when making accusations. The DF guy said there was a higher LOD, meaning more antennas, houses, foliage or whatever in the distance. I didn't see that, all I saw and mentioned is that there is more visible/clearer detail on account of 4k resolution.... AKA...4 times the resolution over the XB1. It's not that XBONEX has more detail, the better resolution is just responsible for highlighting current detail better. The same can be said about HorizonZD in that sense, PS4 vs PRO.

 

[transformer]

FM7 is a wierd one - graphically it seems to be a genuine step back over previous iterations (particularly the lack of colour depth) and it's really hard to see why because Turn 10 have never been slouches in the graphics department.

Have you played the game or are you just looking at compressed screenshots and videos? The new lighting engine, dynamic skies, ToD, and weather effects provide a drastic visual improvement over forza 6. That's not to say you can't show me a screenshot with a texture or tree looks worse due to optimization, but when actually playing the game it is a huge step forward. I'm really surprised anyone thinks otherwise. All the reviews I've read, and discussion in the OT, also agree with this sentiment.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Don't really see the point in Driveclub being referenced these days.

Series is dead, developer is gone, it's history.

Errr... because the developer being no more doesn't somehow delete the game from existence.

I might be wrong, but my understanding of the premise of this thread is to weigh and compare the merits of the graphical presentation and graphics technology in AAA racing games.

If so, what has the health of the developer got to do with anything?

 

[AbandonedTrolley]

Errr... because the developer being no more doesn't somehow delete the game from existence.

I might be wrong, but my understanding of the premise of this thread is to weigh and compare the merits of the graphical presentation and graphics technology in AAA racing games.

If so, what has the health of the developer got to do with anything?

Also they pretty much got enveloped by Codemasters which means all that talent is still in the driving game industry.

 

[MilkyJoe]

The thing about you guys is that you never quote what people say when making accusations. The DF guy said there was a higher LOD, meaning more antennas, houses, foliage or whatever in the distance. I didn't see that, all I saw and mentioned is that there is more visible/clearer detail on account of 4k resolution.... AKA...4 times the resolution over the XB1. It's not that XBONEX has more detail, the better resolution is just responsible for highlighting current detail better. The same can be said about HorizonZD in that sense, PS4 vs PRO.

Are you blind?

http://wccftech.com/forza-motorsport-7-sport-4k-textures-enhanced-lighting-mode-xbox-one-x/

It's almost as if you would rather appear stupid than put down your sword.

 

[Head.spawn]

The thing about you guys is that you never quote what people say when making accusations. The DF guy said there was a higher LOD, meaning more antennas, houses, foliage or whatever in the distance. I didn't see that, all I saw and mentioned is that there is more visible/clearer detail on account of 4k resolution.... AKA...4 times the resolution over the XB1. It's not that XBONEX has more detail, the better resolution is just responsible for highlighting current detail better. The same can be said about HorizonZD in that sense, PS4 vs PRO.

Do you see the hills?

 

[KageMaru]

The thing about you guys is that you never quote what people say when making accusations. The DF guy said there was a higher LOD, meaning more antennas, houses, foliage or whatever in the distance. I didn't see that, all I saw and mentioned is that there is more visible/clearer detail on account of 4k resolution.... AKA...4 times the resolution over the XB1. It's not that XBONEX has more detail, the better resolution is just responsible for highlighting current detail better. The same can be said about HorizonZD in that sense, PS4 vs PRO.

Yes, clearly the only difference is resolution:

 

[Gestault]

Every day we stray further from God's light.

 

[Diablohead]

That's some cherry picking, even for you.

https://youtu.be/GFvwkSBg398?t=14

Give that a whirl you puerile maniac.

Wait i'm confused, i've seen videos of the lower quailty rain on the windshield and yet that video has it looking like forza 6's water, is this a better setting on the pc or do some cars just lack the effects? it would be silly if the weather system changed how it looks.

 

[cooldawn]

I completely agree, a good looking game is a good looking game. Like I said before though it's not an apples to apples comparison, which was my main point. Both GTS and Forza 7 would look noticeably better if they targeted 30fps. Even Forza Horizon and DC are difficult to compare because one is open world while the other is on tracks. It's a great way to see how the two design methods differ and impact the final look of the game though.

It's hard to be 100% confident of the validity for comparison.

Numerous times frame-rate ignites any differential but, just as relevant, is the use of full dynamics (Driveclub, Forza Horizon 3 and Project CARS 2). Two 30fps games that utilise extended technologies to enhance the visuals and one 60fps game that uses the same type of technology but suffers for it. Essentially both approaches are trading off.

I'm trying to say there is no baseline. Forza Motorsport 7 is using some form of changing time and weather but neither is properly simulated. Gran Turismo Sport doesn't have any at all. Which should look better?

There's way to many variables to consider. That's why I feel, regardless of context, if it looks good, it looks good.

 

[Gestault]

Wait i'm confused, i've seen videos of the lower quailty rain on the windshield and yet that video has it looking like forza 6's water, is this a better setting on the pc or do some cars just lack the effects? it would be silly if the weather system changed how it looks.

I hate to say it, but I think you saw the bugged moment in footage from about a month ago (from a trailer) repeated by people like thelastword and assumed that was how it acted in game. Some cars push the rain completely off the windscreen, which can look different, but if anything the rain on the windscreen effect was improved (it definitely still pools and slides). And I'm talking on vanilla XB1.

It seems to be the same with things like the supposed loss of roadside tyre detail. It's never been clearer when someone has and hasn't played the game than with this Forza launch. Watching people parrot manifestly wrong information is tiresome. I almost made a tyre pun there, but I didn't.

 

[Hawk269]

Wait i'm confused, i've seen videos of the lower quailty rain on the windshield and yet that video has it looking like forza 6's water, is this a better setting on the pc or do some cars just lack the effects? it would be silly if the weather system changed how it looks.

According to the description of the video, that is the Xbox One X version being shown.

 

[rashbeep]

Are you blind?

http://wccftech.com/forza-motorsport-7-sport-4k-textures-enhanced-lighting-mode-xbox-one-x/

It's almost as if you would rather appear stupid than put down your sword.

he will never top the time he thought a glitch in the PS4 version of Need for Speed was actually improved SSS over XB1.

 

[MilkyJoe]

Wait i'm confused, i've seen videos of the lower quailty rain on the windshield and yet that video has it looking like forza 6's water, is this a better setting on the pc or do some cars just lack the effects? it would be silly if the weather system changed how it looks.

The rain effects go from a light shower up to storm level rain.

 

[FlutterPuffs]

Will the Xbox One X version of Forza 7 look as good as the PC version, or slightly worse?

 

[PdotMichael]

Will the Xbox One X version of Forza 7 look as good as the PC version, or slightly worse?

What kind of question is that?

 

[Gestault]

Will the Xbox One X version of Forza 7 look as good as the PC version, or slightly worse?

The Digital Foundry vid comparing that had them pegged very close. I can find the link later if you haven't come across it.

Edit: Woo, thanks for helping me stay lazy, JaseC

 

[JaseC]

The Digital Foundry vid comparing that had them pegged very close. I can find the link later if you haven't come across it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XigqvWomVx4

 

[Wax Free Vanilla]

Forza 7 Brands looks like utter shit, wow, looks way worse than even GT6.

 

[ethomaz]

Will the Xbox One X version of Forza 7 look as good as the PC version, or slightly worse?

Are there any doubt about this point?

PC has GPUs with 3x the power of X’s GPU and CPUs that can be said to be 10x or more powerful than X’s CPU.

Of course it won’t look as good as most top PCs.

 

[Jeff Freecss]

Are there any doubt about this point?

PC has GPUs with 3x the power of X’s GPU and CPUs that can be said to be 10x or more powerful than X’s CPU.

Of course it won’t look as good as most top PCs.

But this is based on the theory there’s a PC graphic setting Forza 7 better than the X. I tink the pc version can definitely run better (ie. 144 FPS, etc.) but if Xbox One X version is running all the Ultra settings, I don’t think pc version could look much better beyond upscale the resolution to 6K or something.

 

[MilkyJoe]

Are there any doubt about this point?

PC has GPUs with 3x the power of X’s GPU and CPUs that can be said to be 10x or more powerful than X’s CPU.

Of course it won’t look as good as most top PCs.

Didnt they already say it's using PC ultra settings? Does a more expensive GPU unlock secret super ultra settings?

 

[Self_Destructive]

Forza 7 Brands looks like utter shit, wow, looks way worse than even GT6.

Hilariously GT6 looks better than GT:S in that shot...

And no.. in the GT7 capture there, it looks over-saturated.. the tree textures are horrible.

 

[Gestault]

Are there any doubt about this point?

PC has GPUs with 3x the power of X's GPU and CPUs that can be said to be 10x or more powerful than X's CPU.

Of course it won't look as good as most top PCs.

Didnt they already say it's using PC ultra settings? Does a more expensive GPU unlock secret super ultra settings?

We have a like-for-like video showing how it compares. The results are right there, and it is close. I can't understand someone balking at the 1X performing exactly as well as we're seeing it look/perform.

The lion's share of the advantages on PC are things like ultra widescreen, 6/8K resolution, broader wheel support, and more AA options. If someone is pulling out fractions to pronounce how inferior the 1X version must be in terms of overall visuals, I don't know what to say to that.

 

[Duallusion]

Have you played the game or are you just looking at compressed screenshots and videos? The new lighting engine, dynamic skies, ToD, and weather effects provide a drastic visual improvement over forza 6. That's not to say you can't show me a screenshot with a texture or tree looks worse due to optimization, but when actually playing the game it is a huge step forward. I'm really surprised anyone thinks otherwise. All the reviews I've read, and discussion in the OT, also agree with this sentiment.

Let me stop you right there, buddy! You're in violation of this thread's spirit so please downgrade your level of thinking and start dissing games you either: hate because you can't play them since they are on a "rival" platform, haven't played them because reasons, played them for half an hour at your friends house and/or watched a couple of youtube vids. You get bonus points for digging out the worst screenshots/gifs of "opposing games" all the while posting only the best screenshots/gifs you can make and/or find of your favorites. Holistic approach to these games' graphics - how it all comes together when you're actually playing the game - is absolutely forbidden!

Spoiler

I love this thread since the X360/PS3 days

 

[l2ounD]

I'm expecting only the finest of cherry picks. It's going to be fabulous.

eyeroll.gif

from the guy that posts a youtube screenshot to replace another youtube screenshot

 

[onQ123]

Let me stop you right there, buddy! You're in violation of this thread's spirit so please downgrade your level of thinking and start dissing games you either: hate because you can't play them since they are on a "rival" platform, haven't played them because reasons, played them for half an hour at your friends house and/or watched a couple of youtube vids. You get bonus points for digging out the worst screenshots/gifs of "opposing games" all the while posting only the best screenshots/gifs you can make and/or find of your favorites. Holistic approach to these games' graphics - how it all comes together when you're actually playing the game - is absolutely forbidden!

Spoiler

I love this thread since the X360/PS3 days

 

[BigLee74]

That's some cherry picking, even for you.

https://youtu.be/GFvwkSBg398?t=14

Give that a whirl you puerile maniac.

Stunning. And completely ignored by you know who...

 

[Gestault]

Forza Motorsport 7 | XB1 Replay/gameplay

Downpours on Suzuka are nuts. The best is if the storm passes, and you're just looking at all the built-up water with a brighter sky reflecting.