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[Rmagnus]

i don't know... i don't support jon anymore, not after all the shit he said... but this voice was made a long time ago, it's a minor character, and he will never see any money about that, he's already been paid (i'm not even sure he was paid for this)

this small voice clip won't bring any news fans to the mix so i don't see how buying the game is supporting jontron

Yet it's too difficult to replace the small voice clip or to just come out and say something from the developers?

 

[Yukinari]

He was just playing the game, making note of the thing chat would go insane about, and quickly moved on with his stream.

Its crazy that this even needs to be explained and Polygon shouldnt have used the clip without asking first.

They couldnt have just recorded clean gameplay of the dialogue themselves right?

 

[WrenchNinja]

I assume you're black? Jontron has close friends who are black I believe, so that comment might be a bit off the mark

"Some of my best friends are black" is like the go to racist defense next to "I don't see race" and "I would have voted for Obama for a third term"

 

[SanguineShark]

Yeeesh, I only caught the short form version of this. That is a lot more than I expected. Thanks for the summary. Maybe I will listen to the live stream chat.

I feel some people supporting him or giving him the benefit of the doubt (like on the steam forums) really need to watch the video in its entirety before forming an opinion.

The word nazi is used a lot lately, but many of the views he holds align closely with that party.

 

[Pop-O-Matic]

I feel some people supporting him or giving him the benefit of the doubt (like on the steam forums) really need to watch the video in its entirety before forming an opinion.

You know god damn well those people on the steam forum watched the whole interview and just nodded along to everything Jon said.

 

[SanguineShark]

You know god damn well those people on the steam forum watched the whole interview and just nodded along everything Jon said.

It makes me feel better thinking at least a few of them did not.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

I fully expect the GfB team to talk about this issue sometime in the future. Probably when the game has been out a month or so.

The sad truth about Kickstarter rewards is that it does allow bullshit like this to get in the front door. We've seen it with Yooka, with Pillars of Eternity, now this.

 

[RM8]

I'm skipping this game. Platformers are my favourite games, but personally I don't want to own anything related to that hateful cringey neckbeard. I don't judge people who separate a product from the makers, but yeah, it's a pass for me.

 

[CookTrain]

We've seen it with ... Pillars of Eternity

What happened with that?

 

[Chie Satonaka]

For the interested, 1:14:17 here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQg38pyCs20

Nah.

After hearing it, what I got from that clip is him making light of the entire controversy. No, Vinny. The world didn't explode, which really isn't the point, and I'm pretty sure nobody ever said that was going to be the case.

As an aside, the comments on that video are glorious.

 

[WrenchNinja]

What happened with that?

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.themarysue.com/pillars-of-eternity-transphobia/amp/

Gamergaters snuck in a transphobic poem into the game

 

[Maximo]

I fully expect the GfB team to talk about this issue sometime in the future. Probably when the game has been out a month or so.

The sad truth about Kickstarter rewards is that it does allow bullshit like this to get in the front door. We've seen it with Yooka, with Pillars of Eternity, now this.

Don't believe this was a kickstarter reward.

 

[Christhor]

I wish people were this hardcore when it came to not playing Dragon Quest because of the composer.

 

[SlipperyFishes]

I wish people were this hardcore when it came to not playing Dragon Quest because of the composer.

Ah. Whataboutism

My favourite deflection.

 

[CookTrain]

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.themarysue.com/pillars-of-eternity-transphobia/amp/

Gamergaters snuck in a transphobic poem into the game

Definitely seems like crowd-funding games is bringing more than it's share of crap-baggage then. Absurd.

 

[Zolo]

I wish people were this hardcore when it came to not playing Dragon Quest because of the composer.

Are the people boycotting this people who buy Dragon Quest?

 

[SomedayTheFire]

I wish people were this hardcore when it came to not playing Dragon Quest because of the composer.

Whataboutism is the best. I won't be buying either, thanks for your concern.

 

[Rmagnus]

Are the people boycotting this people who buy Dragon Quest?

No idea, I am not getting either games so I got no clue where he pulled that out from.

 

[ramparter]

Let me salvage this post, I think it was the most important one in that thread.

You can find many search results about the game that mention my name. Just search for:
"a hat in time" "peter valencia"

This is my art portfolio, showing off just a few of the many assets I made for the game.
[url]http://dropr.com/pvalencia/90246/a_h...me/+?p=1175265[/url]

I was the only one on the team who had the skills to create Snatcher in 3D. Snatcher was originally just a 2D sprite that was overlayed on the environment, but because of certain cutscenes he later had to be evolved into a full 3D animated mesh. However, this required shape key (also known as morph target) animation, something no one else on the team at the time knew how to do. I also created the pillow pile (the one you can "swim" in) in Hat Kid's spaceship, using a physics simulation. None of my colleagues knew how to do that either.

Yet despite all that, the company remained quiet after JonTron called people like me lazy welfare thieves that should be kept out of the gene pool. Not even a measly tweet saying they disagree with him.

Regardless of how much money they end up making, they're going to have to live with the consequences of this for years to come. They've now established an audience firmly within neo-Nazi and alt-right circles, and they'll have to constantly avoid offending that crowd in the future to stay in business. Best of luck with that, Gears for Breakfast.

Wow. Personally I dont care that much for having an asshole like Jontron in the game but that is really bad. I cant like a company that doesnt respect or protect their people.

 

[faridmon]

I would never buy a game that supports a guy with racist background.

 

[erlim]

Hmmm, really disheartening seeing the steam forums. Not a single mention of jontron's horrible racist tirades, but instead, a concentrated hatred for SWJ and neogaf liberalism in general.

Just fucking sucks to be part of art and media whether it be videogames, movies, journalism, or new media; that's becoming outwardly radicalized and aggressively emboldened to extreme conservative views; misogyny, racism.

Like, I'm sure the hat in time developers can't afford to alienate this hugely politicized conservative-think demographic on the basis of dollars and cents; but it's really really worrisome their voices and patronage is becoming more and more essential to videogame and videogame culture.

 

[Nanashrew]

Are the people boycotting this people who buy Dragon Quest?

I think Duckroll cleared this up in another thread that Sugiyama gets most of his money from albums and concerts. He's super stingy about his orchestration work in the games too. Which is likely why we got the midi versions of the music in DQ8 3DS in the west because he didn't want us to have his orchestrations. He's a jerk when it comes to that stuff.

EDIT: I also think plenty would be okay to see Sugiyama gone since he's a war crime denier and uses his money to feed lies.

 

[nkarafo]

My take on this is always the same when it's about projects where many people are involved.

There are many people who might have worked in a game, movie or any other similar project. There's bound to be some shitty people involved. Think about your favorite movie... Hundreds of people worked for that right? You really think everyone was a saint? As far as racism goes, mathematically speaking, there bound to be at least a few racist people in any project where more than 10 people were involved. So what are you going to do? You might as well stop buying games or watch movies altogether, just to be safe.

And i find it pretty harsh that the good people also have to get punished because of the one guy who isn't even a major factor in the game. And it's not like everyone has a say in the matter i assume. Maybe most people in the team would agree to remove him from the game but it doesn't always mean they they have the power to do it if the one or two people in charge decides not to do so.

 

[Nanashrew]

My take on this is always the same when it's about projects where many people are involved.

There are many people who might have worked in a game, movie or any other similar project. There's bound to be some shitty people involved. Think about your favorite movie... Hundreds of people worked for that right? You really think everyone was a saint? As far as racism goes, mathematically speaking, there bound to be at least a few racist people in any project where more than 10 people were involved. So what are you going to do? You might as well stop buying games or watch movies altogether, just to be safe.

And i find it pretty harsh that the good people also have to get punished because of the one guy who isn't even a major factor in the game. And it's not like everyone has a say in the matter i assume. Maybe most people in the team would agree to remove him from the game but it doesn't always mean they they have the power to do it if the one or two people in charge decides not to do so.

Mel Gibson was banished from Hollywood for awhile after his anti-semitic rant. Video game industry can't even give the courtesy of a temp ban like Hollywood.

 

[erlim]

I think Duckroll cleared this up in another thread that Sugiyama gets most of his money from albums and concerts. He's super stingy about his orchestration work in the games too. Which is likely why we got the midi versions of the music in DQ8 3DS in the west because he didn't want us to have his orchestrations. He's a jerk when it comes to that stuff.

I can only speak for myself, but I don't really know how to engage or protest social policy in Japan.

I am an American, and seeing the rise of emboldened white nationalism as a POC and young professional is disconcerting to say the least. And yes, you can hate on identity politics, but it just doesn't feel reassuring coming on gaf reading about the ferocious support of JonTron online (in the steam forums), secret white nationalist networking events in Seattle, needle-drop's alt-right meme YouTube channel, and Breitbart's certifiable Nazi connections all in one fell swoop. My mind is firmly and, I believe, justifiably on the rising social issues around me.

Like, what did Sugiyama do, deny Nanjing or something? If that's the case, that's bad, but A Hat in Time signifies a way more pressing normalization of racism right in front of me.

 

[ToonLink]

I was pretty interested in this game, but this has soured me on it a lot. The least they could do is release a statement and distance themselves from JonTron and his views. I'll be passing on it unless something changes.

 

[Wrestlemania]

My take on this is always the same when it's about projects where many people are involved.

There are many people who might have worked in a game, movie or any other similar project. There's bound to be some shitty people involved. Think about your favorite movie... Hundreds of people worked for that right? You really think everyone was a saint? As far as racism goes, mathematically speaking, there bound to be at least a few racist people in any project where more than 10 people were involved. So what are you going to do? You might as well stop buying games or watch movies altogether, just to be safe.

And i find it pretty harsh that the good people also have to get punished because of the one guy who isn't even a major factor in the game. And it's not like everyone has a say in the matter i assume. Maybe most people in the team would agree to remove him from the game but it doesn't always mean they they have the power to do it if the one or two people in charge decides not to do so.

I'm "punishing" them for not even saying a word about the whole thing. Someone they have featured in their game, who will forever be credited with a role, openly confirmed himself to be a white supremacist, and they've said nothing and left him in.

I'm sure there are plenty of things I buy where there are people involved who are publicly known to be as fucking dreadful as Jontron. "Publicly" being the important part - it'd be futile to try avoiding everything where there might be some secret white supremacists. But ultimately it feels like openly boycotting this game can actually make a difference because it's small enough that they might actually feel an impact from it, and it sets an example. White supremacists should not have a place in this industry.

 

[guybrushfreeman]

My take on this is always the same when it's about projects where many people are involved.

There are many people who might have worked in a game, movie or any other similar project. There's bound to be some shitty people involved. Think about your favorite movie... Hundreds of people worked for that right? You really think everyone was a saint? As far as racism goes, mathematically speaking, there bound to be at least a few racist people in any project where more than 10 people were involved. So what are you going to do? You might as well stop buying games or watch movies altogether, just to be safe.

And i find it pretty harsh that the good people also have to get punished because of the one guy who isn't even a major factor in the game. And it's not like everyone has a say in the matter i assume. Maybe most people in the team would agree to remove him from the game but it doesn't always mean they they have the power to do it if the one or two people in charge decides not to do so.

I addressed this earlier but JonTron isn't really like other members of staff in the game. The only reason he is involved at all is because of his public persona, which is now hateful and toxic. I'll quote myself from earlier on the issue.

Edit: I messed up there. I apologise. I'll try to fix it

A while back I remember a comment about this issue that I think is important to remember. JonTron isn't is this game because he's a talented voice actor. It's because he's JonTron.

This makes it sort of a different issue to just say 'well there are terrible people working on any game'. Perhaps so but their involvement in the project goes beyond their celebrity and personality, perhaps it's easier then to separate appreciation of their work and discust at their veiws.

In this case it really isn't possible to do so. When a celebrity is included in something it's very difficult to separate that work from their public persona. The only reason JonTron is in the game is because of his public persona and that persona is hateful and toxic.

I think that's why there's a fundamental difference, you can't really separate his work from his public persona because his work is his public persona. Otherwise there would be no reason to include him at all

Edit edit: that's better

 

[Claude Augario]

Mel Gibson was banished from Hollywood for awhile after his anti-semitic rant. Video game industry can't even give the courtesy of a temp ban like Hollywood.

So was Michael Richards. He still never really recovered from his blowup and what he said was a fraction of the level of heinous shit that came out of Jontron's mouth. Gaming is one of the only mediums where people try to handwave calls for ethnic cleansing with dumbass rhetoric like "if you're going to punish one racist might as well not buy anything made by anyone ever!"

 

[erlim]

I addressed this earlier but JonTron isn't really like other members of staff in the game. The only reason he is involved at all is because of his public persona, which is now hateful and toxic. I'll quote myself from earlier on the issue.

Edit: I messed up there. I apologise. I'll try to fix it



Edit edit: that's better

The thing that disturbs me even more than complacent developers are the substantial amount of users that appear to be buying the game BECAUSE of JonTron, and to 'stick it to' 'social justice warriors.'

Even if the developers are trying to protect their bottom line and maximize their profit, they are irrefutably emboldening some proud racists.

 

[Nanashrew]

I can only speak for myself, but I don't really know how to engage or protest social policy in Japan.

I am an American, and seeing the rise of emboldened white nationalism as a POC and young professional is disconcerting to say the least. And yes, you can hate on identity politics, but it just doesn't feel reassuring coming on gaf reading about the ferocious support of JonTron online (in the steam forums), secret white nationalist networking events in Seattle, needle-drop's alt-right meme YouTube channel, and Breitbart's certifiable Nazi connections all in one fell swoop. My mind is firmly and, I believe, justifiably on the rising social issues around me.

Like, what did Sugiyama do, deny Nanjing or something? If that's the case, that's bad, but A Hat in Time signifies a way more pressing normalization of racism right in front of me.

War crime denier and puts his money where his mouth.

Here's a Kotaku article on the stuff.

https://kotaku.com/5901590/the-sad-...legend-who-pretends-war-crimes-never-happened

What Sugiyama and his fellow revisionists (or, to use a more correct term, negationists) are doing is something different. They think the scale of Japanese atrocities is simply a concoction of the West, that the years of testimony and research supporting the use of "comfort women" (something acknowledged by the Japanese government itself in 1993) is actually a collection of "fallacies, distortions, biases and factual errors". Some of his colleagues in negationist movements like the "Committee for Historical Facts" even believe the Rape of Nanking simply didn't take place.

These men, all of them politically conservative and many of them of an age to remember the war, can be found lightly scattered amongst Japanese politics. Shinzo Abe, for example, Prime Minister of Japan in 2006-07, held similar views. They are deeply committed to their beliefs, to the extent that on June 14, 2007, they took out a full-page advertisement in the Washington Post, in which they argued that the use of comfort women was "anything but the truth".

(This report even states Sugiyama initiated the whole thing).

 

[nkarafo]

Edit edit: that's better

Oh saw the edit. That's a fair point.

 

[Yoshi]

I think Duckroll cleared this up in another thread that Sugiyama gets most of his money from albums and concerts. He's super stingy about his orchestration work in the games too. Which is likely why we got the midi versions of the music in DQ8 3DS in the west because he didn't want us to have his orchestrations. He's a jerk when it comes to that stuff.

EDIT: I also think plenty would be okay to see Sugiyama gone since he's a war crime denier and uses his money to feed lies.

How much money one earns with one's involvement isn't too important here though, because as far as we know, Jontron may not even have earned anything from his involvement with A Hat in Time and Sugiyama earns a good sum for his involvement with Dragon Quest and can also profit in terms of enormous exposure and thus free publicity with it.

 

[PokéKong]

Hmmm, really disheartening seeing the steam forums. Not a single mention of jontron's horrible racist tirades, but instead, a concentrated hatred for SWJ and neogaf liberalism in general.

Just fucking sucks to be part of art and media whether it be videogames, movies, journalism, or new media; that's becoming outwardly radicalized and aggressively emboldened to extreme conservative views; misogyny, racism.

Like, I'm sure the hat in time developers can't afford to alienate this hugely politicized conservative-think demographic on the basis of dollars and cents; but it's really really worrisome their voices and patronage is becoming more and more essential to videogame and videogame culture.

That's the most messed up part, that we've sunken so far that you essentially have to pander to the lowest scum. Whether that means making a game like "Hatred" or simply keeping your mouth shut when it counts, it all depends on the situation.

Imagine what it's like these days just being anybody making anything for a wide audience, at a certain point you have to consider the reality that you're potentially reaching hundreds or thousands or millions of horrible bigots in the crop. What do you do? The correct course of action is absolutely make these people feel alienated, to weed them out of every community and fanbase. But that's hard, it takes courage. It might seem advantageous to just go with it, tip-toe around it and try your best never to offend them, because hey it's just good financial practice to retain as many as possible, right?

Well in reality that's not even true in the long run. Keeping toxic people around and babying them will eventually spoil the whole pot. An unmoderated anonymous message board where "anything goes" sure sounds like the most successful and hugely diverse thing ever if you're a naive child and don't stop and think about it for two seconds. Imagine all the people who would be into gaming today if they weren't scared off for life by the elitist boys club mentality.

 

[erlim]

It's bizarre to think that there's a mass of people lurking on this thread and many other like it on gaf that are delighting in our outrage.

Visiting that steam forum is really disheartening and just over all just a shitty eye opening experience.

You literally have a sizable crowd of people, speaking with their dollars and SUPPORTING the game BECAUSE of JonTron.

Just takes the wind out of your sails.

Fuck.

 

[DogDude]

Neogaf is doing more than the devs to market this game at this point.

 

[Wrestlemania]

It's bizarre to think that there's a mass of people lurking on this thread and many other like it on gaf that are delighting in our outrage.

Visiting that steam forum is really disheartening and just over all just a shitty eye opening experience.

You literally have a sizable crowd of people, speaking with their dollars and SUPPORTING the game BECAUSE of JonTron.

Just takes the wind out of your sails.

Fuck.

These are also literally the same people who will boycott games where they feel those darn SJWs have injected them with the poison of female characters or people of colour. They are a very special kind of snowflake.

 

[Zolo]

It's bizarre to think that there's a mass of people lurking on this thread and many other like it on gaf that are delighting in our outrage.

I actually find it funny that there are people who's entertainment is browsing a forum they hate.

 

[CookTrain]

I actually find it funny that there are people who's entertainment is browsing a forum they hate.

Especially since it seems like half of them are former posters who got banned for... gosh, I wonder.

 

[erlim]

Neogaf is doing more than the devs to market this game at this point.

Yeah in a reductionist sense; but it's better to discuss it than to ignore it. It's clearly getting around to white-nationalists who are laughing at neogaf and our progressive social values; hopefully we can begin to explore ways to counter racism being normalized in the new media and videogame world through discussion. Maybe the hat in time developers will see the kind of people they are emboldening and find their conscious. Who knows really, but anything is better than being complacent with the continual opportunities and celebrity of a racist youtuber.

I actually find it funny that there are people who's entertainment is browsing a forum they hate.

It's easy to pity them or even laugh at them for sure. But really these guys are just stewing, becoming more radicalized and indoctrinated into a mindshare of hate and bigotry.

There's just a sinking feeling that while we're arguing and debating how to conceive JonTron and the merits of supporting or not supporting this game's release, you have a huge mass of like-minded thinkers and even artists on the other side of the fence just happily packaging hateful rhetoric in games like The Last Night or whatever.

I mean, for whatever reason, their hate boners and need to troll progressive minds have a tremendously organizing effect for them. They have found a medium that not only fails to discourage their backwards social beliefs, but allows them a legitimate soap box to stand on is a real shitty reality.

 

[Epcott]

I’m not buying it

Spoiler

since it’s not out for the Switch

If I do buy it, it’ll be to support all the coders, music composer, script writers, animators, and everyone else if it’s a good game. I don’t care about JT, so I won’t allow his presence to stop me from rewarding the team in a job well done.

If not for Gaf, I wouldn’t even know what a JonTron was in the first place... and I go to youtube daily.

 

[Majukun]

I ultimately don't care..if the game is good,i'll buy it sooner or later.

 

[SinCityAssassin]

I'll probably have to make my stance clear on this as well just for the sake of posterity.

I no longer liked Jontron after the whole debacle. I do not care for the views he continues to hold regarding racial purity, immigration, and outright falsifying stereotypes. I continue not to do so. I am disappointed he's still in this game, but I will eventually purchase this in the future

Spoiler

on the Switch if possible

when time comes because I acknowledge that at the core of it, A Hat In Time as a game, as a 3D Platformer, is just fine. That is my choice. And it's a choice as fair as people who do not wish to buy the game because Jontron is in it. I've got too many games on my plate and Odyssey is around the corner. If he's not in there by the time I will buy it, great.

But most of all I'm immensely disappointed that the developer was so silent about this conversation for the rest of its cycle, to the point that the publisher didn't even realize the potential problem until they were asked about it. Even some of the former members of the dev team, like Valen, who disagreed with Jontron's views, are troubled by it because nothing has been said for months. And that continues to be a sticking point for me because their silence is making their bed.

 

[Elephant]

I'm fully behind individuals and companies not apologizing for their stupid remarks or actions. Especially as a lot of it is extremely petty these days. I think it gives a select group of people too much "power" to be able to pressure someone into an apology, fighting hate with hate is just hypocritical and doesn't make you better than them, even if you're morally correct. Beat them with kindness.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Chick Filet isn't going out of business anytime soon.

That's because their homophobia comes from up top/from their Exec.... so unless you want to argue the devs are like that.... not really a meaningful comparison

 

[guybrushfreeman]

I'm fully behind individuals and companies not apologizing for their stupid remarks or actions. Especially as a lot of it is extremely petty these days. I think it gives a select group of people too much "power" to be able to pressure someone into an apology, fighting hate with hate is just hypocritical and doesn't make you better than them, even if you're morally correct. Beat them with kindness.

Please read the thread first. There's no possible way you could compare this thread and JonTron's statements. Please try to understand a topic before posting in it

 

[SinCityAssassin]

I'm fully behind individuals and companies not apologizing for their stupid remarks or actions. Especially as a lot of it is extremely petty these days. I think it gives a select group of people too much "power" to be able to pressure someone into an apology, fighting hate with hate is just hypocritical and doesn't make you better than them, even if you're morally correct. Beat them with kindness.

Dude, seriously?

 

[erlim]

I'm not buying it

Spoiler

since it's not out for the Switch

If I do buy it, it'll be to support all the coders, music composer, script writers, animators, and everyone else if it's a good game. I don't care about JT, so I won't allow his presence to stop me from rewarding the team in a job well done.

If not for Gaf, I wouldn't even know what a JonTron was in the first place... and I go to youtube daily.

The person who has the most to gain from this situation---and the most to lose, is JonTron. Philosophically, it is commendable to support the work of the many talented artists and programmers on the team; but in this case, much like a hollywood film, the most attention is going to be paid to the above the line players---the talent. Whether JonTron makes money or not on this endeavor is irrelevant, his celebrity and political beliefs ARE on display and being proved as a viable and profitable presentation.

There is this post which shows that even those who worked on the game don't support the larger publisher's stance on including JonTron. And hopefully, any programmer whether they support JonTron and his (fucking horrible) beliefs or not, can find more opportunities on rewarding projects based on the merit of their work independent of the game's sales numbers.

You can choose to ignore the fact that white-nationalists are rallying to support this game BECAUSE of JonTron, but it's there. They've latched themselves on for better or worse. So unfortunately, those who support the project because of nostolgia for n64 platformers are going to play into strengthening JonTron and like minded thinkers. Racist beliefs and politics are a parasite, and these guys take every victory they can get.

A victory for progressive social thought is the complete elimination of racist mindshare, a victory of racist mindshare is simply to continue to exist no matter if it's full blown overt racism, or simply to continue going by unchecked through a figure like JonTron.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

I'm fully behind individuals and companies not apologizing for their stupid remarks or actions. Especially as a lot of it is extremely petty these days. I think it gives a select group of people too much "power" to be able to pressure someone into an apology, fighting hate with hate is just hypocritical and doesn't make you better than them, even if you're morally correct. Beat them with kindness.

Asking for a statement is not fighting hate with hate. Neither is not buying the game. Equating what we are talking about with white supremacy is disgusting.

 

[mazillion]

When you mentioned the steam forums, I decided to jump on there and have a look what was being said

http://steamcommunity.com/app/253230/discussions/1/1489987633996458726/

Oh dear

Man I've never really paid attention to steam forums before but I had no idea it was that bad.

They come across as just a bunch of kids with no perspective. Racists are too vocal and kids are too impressionable. Some of their political opinions seem like they came straight from pepe memes, a scary thought.