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What are your political leanings?

Centre left overall with one or two right leaning stances. I have zero in common with the far left and regressives though, who are nothing but clueless morons and give the ordinary left a bad name.
 

Dunki

Member
Scandinavia and other parts of Europe prob


But not sure what you mean by "worked"

Oh yeah the ones in which the right is highly on the raise and Sweden has a lot of no go zones because of their politics? Or Denmark who is rightwing and become very anti-immigrant? as well? Sweeden right now is an absolute disaster and next elections most likely a right wing country. The problem is exact the same we had back in Weimar before Hitler. Weimar gave someone like Hitler even the chance to raise to power.
 

JordanN

Banned
Centre left overall with one or two right leaning stances. I have zero in common with the far left and regressives though, who are nothing but clueless morons and give the ordinary left a bad name.

Nice!

high_five_archer.gif


We centrists will rule the world, by being balanced!
 

sans_pants

avec_pénis
Oh yeah the ones in which the right is highly on the raise and Sweden has a lot of no go zones because of their politics? Or Denmark who is rightwing and become very anti-immigrant? as well? Sweeden right now is an absolute disaster and next elections most likely a right wing country. The problem is exact the same we had back in Weimar before Hitler. Weimar gave someone like Hitler even the chance to raise to power.

the us has swung pretty hard right in the last few years, guess center/right doesn't work either
 
I rather universal basic income cover this.

I don't want to sound heartless and not want people who for a fact cannot work be left behind, but I really don't want a system in a place that rewards people for staying at home and do nothing.

If society empowers the individual to work for themselves, they become less dependent on others to subsidize their life for them. It also means we could have more millionaires who create services or develop strategies that benefits everyone, disabled people included.

That is very idealistic. The issue is the western world is capitalist before democratic. Our leaders will always do what is profitable for the individual before doing what is right for the incapable.
Some people are so mentally unwell that looking after them is a full time job. Sorry to sound gross but I know an individual who's 24 year old daughter has an extremely bad psychotic condition where she will do stuff like shit on her bed and collect it on her windowsill.
Her father worked what he could to try and provide an income, but she's so unwell now she required 24 hour supervision. They would have both starved to death a long time ago if it werent for his benefits. You cant exactly ask a father to stop loving his daughter so he can go out, get a job, and fit in/prove his worth to society can you?
 

Dunki

Member
the us has swung pretty hard right in the last few years, guess center/right doesn't work either

The problem is that the left or democratic parties have become so blind and deaf towards the people and just follow some ideolgy or idenity politics that its pretty easy for the right to gain votes. And this is happening all over the world

'And the only way to actually prevent this is that democratic parties needs to start to listen to actual people not the tumblr or social media crowd-
 

sans_pants

avec_pénis
The problem is that the left or democratic parties have become so blind and deaf towards the people and just follow some ideolgy or idenity politics that its pretty easy for the right to gain votes. And this is happening all over the world

'And the only way to actually prevent this is that democratic parties needs to start to listen to actual people not the tumblr or social media crowd-

so left politics could work with better leaders?
 
The problem is that the left or democratic parties have become so blind and deaf towards the people and just follow some ideolgy or idenity politics that its pretty easy for the right to gain votes. And this is happening all over the world

'And the only way to actually prevent this is that democratic parties needs to start to listen to actual people not the tumblr or social media crowd-

I love the ridiculous notion that the Democratic Party gets policy from tumblr. Also find it strange how identity politics is supposedly played by one side when trump appealed to “real Americans”(whatever the fuck that means)
 

Dunki

Member
so left politics could work with better leaders?

I think a more people focused centric politic would work. Something that speaks to all people instead of trying to shame and guilt a large potion of it. Personally I still beleive even Sanders Politic was very left based he never really shamed people not thinking like him he tried to bring them on his side. Listen to everyone do not shut people out
 

JordanN

Banned
That is very idealistic. The issue is the western world is capitalist before democratic. Our leaders will always do what is profitable for the individual before doing what is right for the incapable.
And that's another problem I want to address.

I hate corruption. Politicians need to work just as hard instead of also receiving a blank cheque just because they sat in parliament all day and clapped whenever the Prime Minister opened his mouth.

In my mind, they're just as bad if not worse than welfare, because they're flagrant about sucking up tax dollars. So I'm not ok with them either.


Lord Thrappleper said:
Her father worked what he could to try and provide an income, but she's so unwell now she required 24 hour supervision. They would have both starved to death a long time ago if it werent for his benefits. You cant exactly ask a father to stop loving his daughter so he can go out, get a job, and fit in/prove his worth to society can you?
I don't think they would starve. The free market exists to prevent that. Historically, it was the socialist governments who failed to keep a population well nourished.

Again, I'm not saying I want to be heartless and not understand how difficult that situation is, but if the government subsidizes your life, there's no incentive to work harder. It's not fair for people like me who also came from bad homes or had an unfair life but I made an effort to not whine about it all day and got a job.
 
And that's another problem I want to address.

I hate corruption. Politicians need to work just as hard instead of also receiving a blank cheque just because they sat in parliament all day and clapped whenever the Prime Minister opened his mouth.

In my mind, they're just as bad if not worse than welfare, because they're flagrant about sucking up tax dollars. So I'm not ok with them either.



I don't think they would starve. The free market exists to prevent that. Historically, it was the socialist governments who failed to keep a population well nourished.

Again, I'm not saying I want to be heartless and not understand how difficult that situation is, but if the government subsidizes your life, there's no incentive to work harder. It's not fair for people like me who also came from bad homes or had an unfair life but I made an effort to not whine about it all day and got a job.


No i'm in the same boat mate. However I'm in a zone where I think so long as peoples basic needs are met, that is all is required of the government. Food, water, heating, electricity, and a home. If this is met then people can live relatively free from worry.

If you want more. If you want the new xbox, a new car, a bigger TV. A holiday. A trip to the cinema. A KFC on friday night. Work for it. Earn it.
 

Dude Abides

Banned
So i went and researched these people. They are literally evil incarnate. How can they look their parents/grandparents in the eyes and tell them they were wrong for fighting?

I don't know personally, but if you think centrism for centrism's sake is a good, as many here seem to, you have to say the parents/grandparents were somewhat in the wrong.

I don't think they would starve. The free market exists to prevent that. Historically, it was the socialist governments who failed to keep a population well nourished.

What are you talking about? The free market absolutely does not solve the problem of sustaining someone who cannot offer their labor on the market. Plenty of people were and are mal and under nourished in capitalist societies.

The reasons some socialist societies had issues with hunger was because they made really bad decisions that caused problems with food production and distribution.
 

nemoral

Banned
Social democrat. I think markets are useful for non-essential services, if they're well regulated and externalities like pollution and infrastructure costs are appropriately weighted.

I believe the government should be the arm of the people, providing essential safety nets and assessing taxes to create the kind of society we want to live in, rather than allowing the market to dictate those conditions.

I think laws should be standardized across states. We no longer live in the time of the Conestoga, we live in the time of endlessly complex webs of production, materials, and consumption that cross all boundaries. Having a fifty different sets of laws from things ranging from the age of consent to gun ownership is ridiculous now, and creates a strong incentive for disunity and wildly disparate growth mediums that make national equality impossible.
 

JordanN

Banned
What are you talking about? The free market absolutely does not solve the problem of sustaining someone who cannot offer their labor on the market. Plenty of people were and are mal and under nourished in capitalist societies.

The reasons some socialist societies had issues with hunger was because they made really bad decisions that caused problems with food production and distribution.

So why is it all the free countries are not starving to death? Under a free market, there is competition to deliver cheaper foods and goods. Or someone with their own private wealth can start up soup kitchens or charities to feed those people.

Socialism has shown many times it cannot predict the needs of a population. With no incentive to work harder, shortages run rampant and everyone dies.

Dude Abides said:
I don't know personally, but if you think centrism for centrism's sake is a good, as many here seem to, you have to say the parents/grandparents were somewhat in the wrong.
Lol, if you think centrism wouldn't oppose Hitler.

He already seized power illegally. Then violated treaties placed on Germany. And then declared war in the name of expanding Germany's borders.
 

Dude Abides

Banned
So why is it all the free countries are not starving to death? Under a free market, there is competition to deliver cheaper foods and goods.

Socialism has shown many times it cannot predict the needs of a population. With no incentive to work harder, shortages run rampant and everyone dies.

We aren't talking about the "free countries" starving to death. We're talking about what happens to individuals in a free-market society who have no ability to earn an income. It doesn't matter if food is cheap if you have zero income. Absent charity or some form of wealth redistribution, individuals who cannot sell their labor on the market will be unable to buy food and will starve.

That socialism has failed (though it's obviously ridiculous and false to say "everyone dies" of starvation) does not mean that the free market is perfect.

Lol, if you think centrism wouldn't oppose Hitler.

He already seized power illegally. Then violated treaties placed on Germany. And then declared war in the name of expanding Germany's borders.

The "centrism" at the time let him have Czechoslovakia, so maybe keep your lols to yourself.

Also he didn't seize power illegally. The NSDAP won the plurality of seats in the Reichstag and Hindenburg lawfully appointed Hitler chancellor. Another lol for you I guess.
 
So why is it all the free countries are not starving to death? Under a free market, there is competition to deliver cheaper foods and goods. Or someone with their own private wealth can start up soup kitchens or charities to feed those people.

Socialism has shown many times it cannot predict the needs of a population. With no incentive to work harder, shortages run rampant and everyone dies.


Lol, if you think centrism wouldn't oppose Hitler.

He already seized power illegally. Then violated treaties placed on Germany. And then declared war in the name of expanding Germany's borders.

Because they have welfare programs? You know, the thing that you want to abolish. lol at you claiming you're a centrist when you want to put disabled people on the streets to teach them they need to work harder.

One thing people often miss about welfare is that it goes back into the economy. People use it to buy goods and services which supports people who do work. Abolish that and it's not just the recipients that will feel it. It would guarantee an increase in crime as well. But thats all ok because jordann needs to feel sufficiently better off than the people beneath him.
 

JordanN

Banned
We aren't talking about the "free countries" starving to death. We're talking about what happens to individuals in a free-market society who have no ability to earn an income. It doesn't matter if food is cheap if you have zero income. Absent charity or some form of wealth redistribution, individuals who cannot sell their labor on the market will be unable to buy food and will starve.

That socialism has failed (though it's obviously ridiculous and false to say "everyone dies" of starvation) does not mean that the free market is perfect.

It's not perfect but it's far better than any socialist country that ever existed.
When people are independent, they are given power to do great things, including spending any excess wealth to benefit society proper.

Give the government all the power or let the government run your life, and it turns into a race to the bottom, with only the politicians living the good life, and all hard workers are worked to death having to feed everyone else.
 

Nerazar

Member
Centrist Left, I suppose. I am progressive on a lot of issues, but I recognize some valuable aspects from more conservative point of views. And I am not thinking of US Republican "We give more money to the rich and take away healthcare from the poor" line of conservatism.

We need to deal with our past, but we also need to weave a new social fabric. So we need shared values and I reckon that the vast majority of people share those values. But the way and the methods differ quite drastically.

I want everyone to have a fair shot at a good life with all the support they can get from the government and every citizen. It should never matter what gender you are or how your body is shaped or colored. So we need to be able to understand the qualities of other people in order to understand ourselves and the world we live in.

So we have a lot of progressive ideas which have a very good basis and intention. For example: of course we need to be equal in our chances, in our workplace, in our laws. And we have to defend and support those who live in asymetrical positions of power and who are exploited.

However, many methods are too much in my opinion, because some very vocal and active persons take the issue and use good ideas to enrich themselves in some way. Political power, money ... There are a lot of reasons to do that. And the best way to get more power is to shift the power to themselves, a selected few at the very fringe of the movement. But this will never be true equality.

You cannot take the tyranny of the past and evolve it to the tyranny of the present and expect people to believe you. You cannot threaten people to join the cause ("they are all nazis") and make them 'the other' - this is what actual alt-righters do all day long. You cannot villify 50% of the population ("men are evil") if a few monsters behave horribly - that is what actual alt-righters do as well.

Each time we use the methods of the past and inherently wrong political movements, we will pay the price. It does not matter how noble our cause may be - as long as we are just the other side of the coin, we will not evolve and convince people of ideals like Democracy or Equality.

So I feel that there is a far left which is covertly supporting the far right. They meet each other at some point of the political spectrum and they both will surpress free thought and people's rights. That is their game and I am not willing to play along.
 

JordanN

Banned
One thing people often miss about welfare is that it goes back into the economy. People use it to buy goods and services which supports people who do work. Abolish that and it's not just the recipients that will feel it. It would guarantee an increase in crime as well.

But that money for welfare has to come from somewhere. And when it comes from hardworking people's paychecks then that's not fair.
Unless we turn money into a right, in which case, welfare needs to be replaced with income for all.
 

Discourse

Member
Oh yeah the ones in which the right is highly on the raise and Sweden has a lot of no go zones because of their politics? Or Denmark who is rightwing and become very anti-immigrant? as well? Sweeden right now is an absolute disaster and next elections most likely a right wing country. The problem is exact the same we had back in Weimar before Hitler. Weimar gave someone like Hitler even the chance to raise to power.

1. Right is not on the rise anywhere. Sweden Democrats will never be allowed to be part of a ruling coalition in Sweden. In Finland the anti-immigrant right lost half their support and imploded after showing how incompetent they are when given the chance to be part of a governing coalition.
2. Sweden has no no go zones, only people who believe far right propaganda or watch RT would believe that.
3. Denmark has always been right wing and anti-immigrant, it's not a recent thing
4. Sweden is in no way a disaster, only people who believe far right propaganda would believe that. They've had the fastest growing economy in Europe for many years in a row.
5. No, it's nothing like Weimar before Hitler.
 
But that money for welfare has to come from somewhere. And when it comes from hardworking people's paychecks then that's not fair.

It's more unfair to condemn people who can't work through no fault of their own to personal ruin. Even with welfare they're still stuck in relative poverty and have to deal with people like you looking down on them and wanting to take away the only lifeline they have.
 

sans_pants

avec_pénis
Give the government all the power or let the government run your life, and it turns into a race to the bottom, with only the politicians living the good life, and all hard workers are worked to death having to feed everyone else.

Um replace politicians with the elite wealthy and look we are here in America right now
 

JordanN

Banned
Um replace politicians with the elite wealthy and look we are here in America right now

Where's the race for the bottom when Microsoft or Disney make lots of money? If anything, the richer companies have gotten, the more advanced technologies and entertainment trickles down to the middle and working class thanks to free market competition.

Under socialism, everyone is equally poor. It's only the socialist elites who ever get to enjoy anything in luxury.

It's more unfair to condemn people who can't work through no fault of their own to personal ruin.
I'm not condemning them. Money isn't a right. Let other people decide what they do with their paycheck but don't arbitrarily take it away from everyone if they don't agree to it.

Even with welfare they're still stuck in relative poverty and have to deal with people like you looking down on them and wanting to take away the only lifeline they have.
Imagine if all society chose not to work because they all want government handouts? The sympathy should be for the employed because they're the ones keeping society running. If the government runs out of money, whose fault will that be?
 

Dunki

Member
1. Right is not on the rise anywhere. Sweden Democrats will never be allowed to be part of a ruling coalition in Sweden. In Finland the anti-immigrant right lost half their support and imploded after showing how incompetent they are when given the chance to be part of a governing coalition.
2. Sweden has no no go zones, only people who believe far right propaganda or watch RT would believe that.
3. Denmark has always been right wing and anti-immigrant, it's not a recent thing
4. Sweden is in no way a disaster, only people who believe far right propaganda would believe that. They've had the fastest growing economy in Europe for many years in a row.
5. No, it's nothing like Weimar before Hitler.

And yet despite this, Sweden is experiencing the same rise in anti-establishment nationalism as the rest of Europe and the US. Latest polling suggests support for the Sweden Democrats has risen to 21.5 per cent, putting them just behind the ruling Social Democrats, with 25.7 per cent of support.

The far right is on the rise in Sweden – this time we can't just blame inequalit

No go zones:
Sadly only in German. But according to the police chief in an interview Sweden there are right now 60 so called no go areas. These are places the police has no control over anymore. Germany has these kind of areas as well. Lastly in Hamburg and Berlin in which the German police chief said we need help. Yes there are "NO go Zones" but if you think the Police chief of Sweden is a rightwing Nazi maybe you will not believe me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=63&v=Mq1uiyhTGRY


Here is the article Again only in German. Maybe Google Translate will help. But in the video you can see zones and what can happen there.
Schwedischer Polizeichef zu No-Go-Areas: „60 anfällige Gebiete

And yes this is like Weimar just on a much wider level. Weimar was the result of the incompetence of democratic parties which were in shambles back then and are today in Europe. They lose more and more votes. Again in Germany the SPD the most democratic party has gotten the lowest result ever. We know have to deal with a 3 party government consisting of Left "conservative which are more democratic and Liberals. If they don't get together and by the looks of it they wont we will have new elections. Jeez if they can not get together I wonder what will happen with the AFD (our right wing Party) I bet they will get even more votes.
 
I'm not condemning them. Money isn't a right. Let other people decide what they do with their paycheck but don't arbitrarily take it away from everyone if they don't agree to it.

Nonsense. Taxes aren't arbitrary. It's how modern society works. Public funding has to come from somewhere. You also benefit from public spending yourself whether you realise it or not. Do you feel the same way about military spending and corporate welfare or is it just the poorest people in society that draw your ire?
 

sans_pants

avec_pénis
Where's the race for the bottom when Microsoft or Disney make lots of money? If anything, the richer companies have gotten, the more advanced technologies and entertainment trickles down to the middle and working class thanks to free market competition.

Right now Amazon is going to secure billions in tax breaks and benefits for a new hq, billionaire sports owners are getting stadiums paid for by cities, and the "gig economy" is employing millions of people as "contractors" with zero benefits

But we have smartphones and good shows to watch on them
 

JordanN

Banned
Nonsense. Taxes aren't arbitrary. It's how modern society works. Public funding has to come from somewhere. You also benefit from public spending yourself whether you realise it or not. Do you feel the same way about military spending and corporate welfare or is it just the poorest people in society that draw your ire?

Modern society is hard working people making contributions that the government collects from. No one is entitled to another person's money if they worked for it themselves. So all the power should rest with the job creators, not the government.

Air Zombie Meat said:
Do you feel the same way about military spending and corporate welfare or is it just the poorest people in society that draw your ire?

See above. What you work for is your property. No one else has the right to take that away from you. If someone wants to opt out of spending for the military, that's their right.

Right now Amazon is going to secure billions in tax breaks and benefits for a new hq, billionaire sports owners are getting stadiums paid for by cities, and the "gig economy" is employing millions of people as "contractors" with zero benefits

But we have smartphones and good shows to watch on them
It sucks but if people don't like it, they turn to another service. That's how the free market works.
 

JordanN

Banned
What sucks? What other service would they turn to?


You're right tho, the free market works by exploiting the desperate

Start your own?

This is what I mean about personal responsibility. Don't let the government think for you or wait for them to take action.

If you disagree with something, you can easily vote with your wallet in which case, companies always listen.
 

sans_pants

avec_pénis
Start your own?

This is what I mean about personal responsibility. Don't let the government think for you or wait for them to take action.

If you disagree with something, you can easily vote with your wallet in which case, companies always listen.

start my own what?
 

Rayis

Member
Modern society is hard working people making contributions that the government collects from. No one is entitled to another person's money if they worked for it themselves. So all the power should rest with the job creators, not the government.



See above. What you work for is your property. No one else has the right to take that away from you. If someone wants to opt out of spending for the military, that's their right.


It sucks but if people don't like it, they turn to another service. That's how the free market works.
And those hardworking people are understood to be at a baseline level of well-being that other people in society are not currently at and it'd be unfair to expect them to perform the exact same. Either way, no one earns money in a vacuum, the myth of the rugged individualist needs to die, we all benefit from each other's labor.
 

VAL0R

Banned
Are you happy with the outcome of your vote?

Yes. I'm very happy with Trump so far, honestly.

Trump seems like the type of guy who’s paid for an abortion or two in his lifetime, doncha think?

I don't know if he has or not. As far as my vote is concerned I'm mostly interested in the laws and policies that he will support. As a matter of personal morality, I believe it's better to not rashly judge people or speculate evil deeds or intentions of them. Why would I speculate he has paid for an abortion, for example? God knows and God alone will be his judge.

Welcome. I am a Latin-mass Trad myself. I tried to get Catholic threads going a few times in the past, but are always dominated by anti-Catholic rhetoric or Cafeteria "Catholics" coming in and listing all the things they disagree with. Modern catechization is pure shit.

Hi appaws, thanks! I only attend a Latin mass on occasion but I do think they're beautiful. Are you married with kids? We'll have to make sure that we catechize our children properly.
 

sans_pants

avec_pénis
If you don't like Amazon, you can boycott them or create your own online shopping service.

Otherwise, what is the complaint?

I believe we were talking about the race to the bottom. My complaint is that large corporations and wealthy individuals feed on my tax dollars while "creating" shitty jobs in return
 
Start your own?

This is what I mean about personal responsibility. Don't let the government think for you or wait for them to take action.

If you disagree with something, you can easily vote with your wallet in which case, companies always listen.

Your ideas are old and failed, more effective at thought experiments than actually providing a foundation for a healthy, just society. Evidence for that is all around you, just look at which countries are succeeding in education, happiness, equality, etc. None of those countries adhere remotely to libertarian ideology.
 

JordanN

Banned
Your ideas are old and failed, more effective at thought experiments than actually providing a foundation for a healthy, just society. Evidence for that is all around you, just look at which countries are succeeding in education, happiness, equality, etc. None of those countries adhere remotely to libertarian ideology.

The ones that have a free market?
There is no libertarian country in the strictest sense of the word but I'm not sure why that matters. I don't even think I mentioned the word libertarian in the last two pages, I only said I'm against the idea that money is "owed" to people who don't work.

That doesn't contradict democracy or the free market.

I believe we were talking about the race to the bottom. My complaint is that large corporations and wealthy individuals feed on my tax dollars while "creating" shitty jobs in return
Well I already said I'm against handouts so I'm not sure what your point is. Amazon participating in it is not what I defended.

If Amazon wants to continue offering more advance services in spite of handouts, then that's ok.

And those hardworking people are understood to be at a baseline level of well-being that other people in society are not currently at and it'd be unfair to expect them to perform the exact same. Either way, no one earns money in a vacuum, the myth of the rugged individualist needs to die, we all benefit from each other's labor.

How do you know?

Everyone who works jobs live different lives. It's not fair to assume just because they're employed, means they're all happy to lose money off their paycheck that could otherwise help them. Especially letting the government decide while they take money for themselves and then give some to others.
 
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