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The Naughty Dog Agenda - RobinGaming
- Thread starter cormack12
- Start date
Interesting you only selected that and ignored the rest of my post which actually talks about what you're saying right now.
D
Deleted member 752119
Unconfirmed Member
Personally I'm able to separate the art from the artist. I'm not skipping out on movies, games etc. I think I'll enjoy because someone on the development team, regardless of the size of their role, said something I find abhorrent. I couldn't care less what some voice actor or game producer says or does in their personal life. Hate whites, hate blacks, hate gays or whatever? They're a hateful moron. But if the game they're associated with is great and doesn't reflect that hate, I couldn't care less.
Boycotts for such reasons are dumb as hell as most every large company has some really shitty people working for them, most are just smart enough to keep that shit out of the public eye. In any case, I'm just not that activist, boycotter type. Life is short and I'm focused on maximizing my enjoyment the brief time I have. I focus on doing good myself and not harming others, but I'm not going to be all preachy about it online or be obsessed with never giving any of my money to companies who have some employees with views I find terrible. I'll avoid companies where I think the entire company's purpose, methods of operation etc. are terrible, but that's it.
A lot of us didn't go to Era or left it because we were tired of everything in gaming being politicized. It would be nice if that didn't happen on GAF and we could just focus on the games and whether they're fun or not, and not on the politics of who's making them or whether the characters are white or minority, male or female, gay or straight and so on. A good game is a good game.
Boycotts for such reasons are dumb as hell as most every large company has some really shitty people working for them, most are just smart enough to keep that shit out of the public eye. In any case, I'm just not that activist, boycotter type. Life is short and I'm focused on maximizing my enjoyment the brief time I have. I focus on doing good myself and not harming others, but I'm not going to be all preachy about it online or be obsessed with never giving any of my money to companies who have some employees with views I find terrible. I'll avoid companies where I think the entire company's purpose, methods of operation etc. are terrible, but that's it.
A lot of us didn't go to Era or left it because we were tired of everything in gaming being politicized. It would be nice if that didn't happen on GAF and we could just focus on the games and whether they're fun or not, and not on the politics of who's making them or whether the characters are white or minority, male or female, gay or straight and so on. A good game is a good game.
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julio_grr
Member
Whoah, I had finally enough time to finish reading all this thread.
Great read. Very civilized discussion, from both sides.
At the end I think we should wait for the game to be released. I have watched RobinGaming's video multiple times, and I am a little bit confused because at the end he says he's tired but I cannot really put my hands on what he's tired of. He is nitpicking anecdotal details and even bending reality as if he had an agenda.
At 12:54 :
"He was hand picked by Neil himself to audition"
He was not hand picked to play the role. He went into auditions like anyone else (at 28m):
He made self tapes and auditionned. Like the girl who plays Victoria (just after.)
It's pretty common I guess. If a position opened in my team, I'd invite people I know would fit to come at my office so that I can interview them.
So that's not the opposite of the others.
As I already said in other threads, showing the kiss was the smarter move (from a marketing point of view) from ND to get free advertisement. This Robin guy is surfing on this buzz.
Great read. Very civilized discussion, from both sides.
At the end I think we should wait for the game to be released. I have watched RobinGaming's video multiple times, and I am a little bit confused because at the end he says he's tired but I cannot really put my hands on what he's tired of. He is nitpicking anecdotal details and even bending reality as if he had an agenda.
False
False
At 12:54 :
"He was hand picked by Neil himself to audition"
He was not hand picked to play the role. He went into auditions like anyone else (at 28m):
He made self tapes and auditionned. Like the girl who plays Victoria (just after.)
It's pretty common I guess. If a position opened in my team, I'd invite people I know would fit to come at my office so that I can interview them.
So that's not the opposite of the others.
As I already said in other threads, showing the kiss was the smarter move (from a marketing point of view) from ND to get free advertisement. This Robin guy is surfing on this buzz.
InterMusketeer
Member
Can you give us examples of him bending reality?
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
He said the only reason that lady was picked to do the interview was that she was a lesbian. That's bending reality.
julio_grr
Member
What I quoted regarding Lev's actor. He's subtly implying he was handpicked to play the role, and that this is the opposite of what happened for the other character. This is false.
He's implying Chlodine is canon, which it is not.
At 9m23s he exactly says:
"they'll change around characters to fit their narrative." Actually no. Nothing changed in ND's games as far as we currently know.
Their's also an unsourced claim regarding Nathan's daughter that should have been a boy in the first draft. Does anyone have a serious link? Anyway If he has a problem with the gender of Nathan's children then I am worried.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
This is the first I heard of it as well, so I just googled and this came up right near the top.
https://www.rollingstone.com/cultur...ckmann-on-nathan-drake-sexism-in-games-43705/
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InterMusketeer
Member
Yes, he doesn't provide any evidence for that statement. Seems it's just him assuming.
He says he was handpicked to audition, and that this is different from any other role up till this point. Those are the facts. Any subtlety there I view as him speculating. I mean, he's putting all these examples out there to prove his argument that ND has an agenda. That's the point of the video.
I don't think he implied anything like that. He seems to think they (ND) wish they could have done something like that, but didn't. So they're doing the next best thing: promoting this shipping on Twitter.
He doesn't give the source, but it is based on a real interview given by Druckmann.
Schrödinger's cat
Banned
I was wrong. Thank you for the correction.
The net result is the same:
The creative director of the product and a co-president of the company personally favoured a blatant bigot.
[Unknown stuff happens]
Bigot is now working on and representing the game.
What is remarkable to me is that, in over 1,000 comments, the only time this open, repeated, documented, bigotry has even been acknowledged is in attempts to downplay or shift focus away from it in some fashion.
I think 1 month and 1,000+ comments is a reasonable amount of time for participants to have tackled the concern of a company and its co-president favouring a bigot.
That hasn't happened.
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julio_grr
Member
(I should say English is not my first language so sorry for any misunderstanding, if any)
Lev's actor was not favored. He auditioned like anyone else.
Like I said, I manage a team of several people. If a position opens, it is perfectly normal that I invite people I know for me to interview them. And to follow normal procedure. They will be compared to others and I'll choose the best candidate.
Would you say that Shannon Woodward was favored? She confessed having asked to have a role. How is that a problem for Lev's actor and not her?
I don't know why nobody noticed that in the 1000+ posts from this thread. Maybe Ian Alexander is a dumass, I don't know, he's like 16 years old, I was one at his age. Maybe he was great in The O.A., maybe he is a great actor, maybe he was cast because of that?? Why is it not your first thought given ND's track record?
julio_grr
Member
Yeah and as I said each one of this details can be interpreted differently (I made a list with time-stamps but am not sure I would have the energy to go through all of them). For me nothing to be alarmed of.
I take his words. "they'll change around characters to fit their narrative". If we look at the games and what is canon, this is not the case. Now re-tweeting is what people always do on tweeter. I'm pretty sure you can find other fan arts re-tweeted also that do not imply anything.
Thank you ! I remember reading this interview and the same thing about the old lady in the castle. So now we have a common discussion between game designers, like "should this be red?" "Oh no let's make it blue!", that is presented as pushing an agenda. Please.
Schrödinger's cat
Banned
They were favoured. They were hand-picked to audition by the company's co-president and creative director of the game the acting position was for.
This detail was the one you kindly pointed out to me in your earlier comment:
If you are Neil Druckmann then I am particularly interested in learning more.
If that isn't the case then I'm not sure what this anecdote brings to the discussion.
The fact remains: A bigot was favoured by a company co-president and the game's creative director.
1. I didn't say the the bigot was favoured, they did.
2. My concern centers on the person that has repeatedly, proudly and publicly expressed bigotted views.
It would have been my first thought, being a fan of all ND's games that I've played.
In fact, as I clicked 'Play' on the video my mind was already making reasons to refute what I expected to see.
But the material in the video has broadened my views and made me aware of what appears to be another type of track record.
It encouraged me to pay closer attention and to question what I assumed I knew.
--
And with that said above, I've responded to another comment on the bigotry and the favouritism shown towards its author and it is a comment which is about downplaying and shifting focus from it.
The only time that the evidence of bigotry shown in the video has been referred to directly is to correct a mistake I made.
In that instance, following the details provided in the video down to the exact word is critically important.
As a pedant, I'm 100% on board with that and appreciate it.
However, aside from that singular exception, it's all about steering away from what is in the video and asking multiple questions and what if's about what isn't in the video and about other people that this specific concern isn't about.
Having pointed this out multiple times, I find its repeated practice disingenuous at best.
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julio_grr
Member
To show that the creative director inviting people to audition is perfectly normal and does not show any particular "favor" ??
How can I say that? A favor would be if from multiple candidates, he would have been chosen despite not being the best for the role.
Ah maybe I missed that, ND used the word "favored"? If so would you kindly point me to it?
I am sorry I don't really understand what you mean by "bigot". In my country it's someone going too much to the church. His tweets show he may be a dumass. I was one at his age. If he's a great actor then this is the only thing that should matter.
I'm beginning to be tired also. I am not sure I want to have to go through all the details of the video with so much energy, to show that each one of them can be interpreted in a very normal way, and that the fact that RobinGaming chose to interpret each one of them in one particular direction is what is problematic at this point...
Sorry about that, I quoted also another guy, I saw several persons in the thread referring to this part of the video, but did not quote them all. Nothing personal here.
tassletine
Member
I disagree. I actually think the writing is too good to have him break down barriers. At least in the first game.
When writers push an agenda it’s almost always terrible, and in fact most writers will tell you if you try you’ll end up with something awful.
But, if you are being true and you utilise what you know, then it usually works. If what you know happens to be somewhat political (what isn’t nowadays?) then all the better for it as it just deepens the work.
The first game was driven largely by character and I felt that Ellie’s character was absolutely in tune with the emerging world she was living in - one which was overly madculine — it made her stand out. In the end it is just far more intersting to have Ellie portrayed that way — In fact if I try and imagine those scenes in the dlc played out with a boy it would make me cringe.
I’m just glad we have a writer as good as Druckman making video games at all. Quality of story should always be the issue, not the politics. He can say whatever he wants as far as I’m concerned as long as it’s not hamfisted.
Schrödinger's cat
Banned
That is anecdotal.
It also contradicts what the actor said themselves, and was part of the detail you kindly corrected me on in the first place.
This is unknown.
The fact remains that their pathway to securing the role involved direct favouritism from the company's co-president and creative director of the game.
Whatever happened after that instance of favouritism is unknown.
The fact remains that the same person is now in the role, representing the game and the company, and has repeatedly and expressly published bigotted views.
To hand-pick someone is to show them favouritism.
Now you tell me!
This is the defintion that I go by:
I agree. Going by their previous track record, I'm sure all of Naughty Dog's cast will perform their duties to an extremely high standard.
However, in the context of the video posted in the OP, and in statements and influences made by Neil Druckmann, it's increasingly apparent that things are not so simple. Hence the video and this discussion.
I'm tiring too.
But there really isn't anything to misinterpret in the views this person has shown to express, or the favouritism they mentioned they received.
Same here.
If I've come across as aggressive or rude then please accept my apologies.
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InterMusketeer
Member
I mean, that's fair enough. I think he does make a pretty strong case when you put all of that information together, even if some of the examples he brings are a bit weak.
In that section he talks about joking among friends that the two characters will end up in a relationship in the game, and though ultimately that never happened, it is clear ND seems to endorse the shipping of these two characters. They share fan art and retweet posts of fans, but also share art made by ND employees for their 'official' holiday greetings as well, which at the very least hints at a lesbian relationship between the two.
Again, Robin's argument is that he wouldn't have thought for a second about any of these examples if they stood on their own, but with all of that stuff added together, it does seem like there's a pattern to ND's choices as of late.
We know Druckmann is interested in presenting female characters in a certain way so they can become role models for girls. His goal is to change perception of women and girls (in video games). This particular choice, to change Drake's son into a girl, fits that mould quite snug.
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julio_grr
Member
I dont see how. Neil Druckmann reached the director of "The O.A." to audition Ian Alexander. How is that not normal?!
Anyway I skipped parts of your post because I'm under the impression we are going in circle here. So I'll use your words to make myself clear:
I don't see any problem here in favoring a "bigot". All of that seems normal to me and not even worth noticing.
And it goes on and on for all the nitpicked details from the OP video.
This holiday greetings card to me does not hint at any lesbian relationship. I see two embarassed women under the mistletoe. It's RobinGaming who wants to see more. And if you look at Druckmann's or NaughtyDog's twitters, you'll see dozen and dozen of re-twitts of fan-arts that are extremely diverse. Why pick those three?
Yeah so now every female character from their games is them pushing an agenda. It's never ending.
Giving so many aspects it seems that way yes however we do not know but people also get suspicious because of the rest. One thing would have never raised an eye. But the amount of it, the language, the connections to Sarkesian, to the racist bigot new actor who was handpicked. And es also the shipping (I think that is what people call this) it certainly makes a case.
My biggest gripe personally is the act pict hiring of this racist asshole. Also this really opend my eyes how stupid male characters are in Uncharted 4 while women are all smart and always do the right choices or saving the day.
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Schrödinger's cat
Banned
Whether this is normal isn't the argument.
It's still favouritism.
Thank you for your directness.
I think this is the point where we amicably agree to disagree.
julio_grr
Member
This actually does not hold up to scrutiny. Sully saves the day countless times. As noted by others above, Nadine is blinded by her self arrogance and at the end loses everything.
Adry9
Member
I don't think this happens in Uncharted 4, but they do lean a bit towards that in The Lost Legacy. The bad guy is a dude, working with dudes, and the only "good" male character that comes along is so weak and stupid that he needs the two protagonists to make it through. Where it definitely happens though is in Horizon, where 99% of male characters are either bad guys, stupid, weak or twisted in their intentions. Contrary to 99% of the women having good intentions, being smart and capable.
PS: Hell, even the "Bad" AI has the voice of a man and the "Good" AI has the voice of a woman.
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InterMusketeer
Member
Sure, if you want to remove all context from the image and setting.
Because he's trying to prove a point? Why would he cover irrelevant tweets in his video?
Are you saying Druckmann's not consistent in his beliefs on how to represent women in media? I can't think of any that go against his stated ideals. Can you?
julio_grr
Member
I am not sure how fantasizing about a lesbian relationship that is not in the game is somehow adding context.
I agree with you that he is trying to prove a point. But nitpicking 3 re-twitts among hundreds of others does not make a fair point. He's trying to prove a point with anecdotal evidences at best.
No I think Druckmann is consistent in his beliefs. I would not expect less from a creative director from a big studio.
What I don't understand is why is RobinGaming seeing in this particular un-harmful instance any red flag for an hypothetical future bad quality of ND's games?
InterMusketeer
Member
It's just one of the many ways ND expresses its social justice values. For example by making their holiday greetings card thingy depict two established hetero women, embarrassed and blushing under a mistletoe. Either because they think it would be fun if these two were romantically involved, or because they think their audience would enjoy it.
Let's flip this around. Can you imagine what would happen if someone were to draw Ellie marrying a guy, or under a mistletoe with a male character? How'd you think it would go over if ND shared this art on their Twitter, and kept referring to this couple? I expect they would get in trouble for that.
Lionel Richie
Member
And I am not sure how fantasizing about a lesbian relationship should ever lead to a red flag. If we let our political views get in the way of being up for some interracial girl on girl action then jesus fucking christ what are we even doing here?
HaveButOneLife
Banned
Yep. He was right.
The Mad Draklor
Member
Of course, there are some who still think that his video is homophobic or any kind of "-ist" they can name.
This video also aged like fine wine:
This video also aged like fine wine:
Bryank75
Banned
Camreezie
Member
Scoville is bang on here and I usually disagree with the guy on most things
D
Deleted member 471617
Unconfirmed Member
I loved The Last of Us as it was not only my 2013 game of the year for last generation but also my game of the generation for that respective era. With Part 2, it just seems like the game itself is focused and based around all of Druckmann's personal beliefs and agenda which is why the fanbase is 50/50 split if not more towards the negative side.
As for RobinGaming, I follow him and watch his videos from time to time. AgendaEra actually has RobinGaming banned on their site despite him never ever being on it which is so fucked up. It's like not everyone has the same opinion or feeling but if you don't side with AgendaEra, you get banned. It's a fucking joke.
The video itself was spot on when I watched it years ago and is even more spot on now. Props to RobinGaming for calling out what even a blind person could see.
As for RobinGaming, I follow him and watch his videos from time to time. AgendaEra actually has RobinGaming banned on their site despite him never ever being on it which is so fucked up. It's like not everyone has the same opinion or feeling but if you don't side with AgendaEra, you get banned. It's a fucking joke.
The video itself was spot on when I watched it years ago and is even more spot on now. Props to RobinGaming for calling out what even a blind person could see.
zeorhymer
Member
Funny how there's 2 buttons. Why aren't the white knighters and astro turfers clicking on the likes? Oh that's right, cause they don't give a shit.
Bryank75
Banned
I'm not an Xbot anyway...
The Mad Draklor
Member
I know. Neither am I. Even then, it still doesn't stop certain people from accusing us as Xbox fanboys.
Rean no Kiseki
Banned
Nice necro bump.
One can never underestimate the sheer autsim of /vpol/
As for the video and it's creator...
One can never underestimate the sheer autsim of /vpol/
As for the video and it's creator...
M1chl
Currently Gif and Meme Champion
That's the usual defense without much thought, about why certain video has so many dislikes. But it never worked, since was majority of exlusive games or game developer's videos have pretty much few dislikes.
Soleil rouge
Member
Rean no Kiseki
Banned
Smart move, you wouldn't want the product you're selling to people in this very video being spoiled on your official channel now would you.
Ten_Fold
Member
I stopped complaining about this game, I thought the first game was good, not OMG the greatest or anything. I guess deep down I'm not really a Sony or ND fan anymore. Not a fan of what they are putting in the game, so I will vote will my wallet. I just know after this, the chance of me getting a ps5 at launch is slim to none.
MiguelItUp
Member
Scoville definitely brings up some valid points. Things that I definitely agree with as well.
I dunno. I was hoping to look forward to it, but I feel myself drifting further and further away the closer we get to release.
I dunno. I was hoping to look forward to it, but I feel myself drifting further and further away the closer we get to release.
Stilton Disco
Member
Missed this video when it came out, but yeah, seems he hit the nail on the head and had a lot of accuracy in his foresight.
Honestly I'm more worried about the future of Uncharted than anything now.
The Last of Us isn't for me. I thougt the first one was very well made but lacked likeable characters, had a very morose plot and way too many dumb but not fun plot points for my tatses.
The clear TLoU influences in Uncharted 4, the terrible far left 'strong female character' that was nadine, slow pace, dreary lack of anything supernatural and anticlimactic end with Nate and Elena's daughter marred what was otherwise a fantastic experience, and while Lost Legacy managed to avoid most of that with a far smaller game and thus much tighter experience, the weird homerotic fetishisation of Chloe and Nadine since from them, that this video reminded me about, was creepy as hell.
I'm fine with them making a far left propaganda filled, bigoted, hateful, misery fest of a zombie series if they want, just don't change my silly, fun, over the top Tomb Raider rip off into the same thing basically.
Honestly I'm more worried about the future of Uncharted than anything now.
The Last of Us isn't for me. I thougt the first one was very well made but lacked likeable characters, had a very morose plot and way too many dumb but not fun plot points for my tatses.
The clear TLoU influences in Uncharted 4, the terrible far left 'strong female character' that was nadine, slow pace, dreary lack of anything supernatural and anticlimactic end with Nate and Elena's daughter marred what was otherwise a fantastic experience, and while Lost Legacy managed to avoid most of that with a far smaller game and thus much tighter experience, the weird homerotic fetishisation of Chloe and Nadine since from them, that this video reminded me about, was creepy as hell.
I'm fine with them making a far left propaganda filled, bigoted, hateful, misery fest of a zombie series if they want, just don't change my silly, fun, over the top Tomb Raider rip off into the same thing basically.
Bryank75
Banned
There is a new studio for UC under Bruce Straley, I think it is protected from Druckmanns clutches. I think you're right though, I think Uncharted is far more important in the long run.
The Mad Draklor
Member
It would be awesome if they bring Amy back, and she and Bruce collab on a game that is 100% focused on making a good game and not be concerned about "social justice" or personal politics.
Bryank75
Banned
She is still friendly with everyone that does the voice-acting, they had a video reunion a few days to a week ago. So, it could be possible, even though shes working on some game-streaming thing atm.
Stilton Disco
Member
So in other words she'll be free in a couple of years at most!
Bryank75
Banned
Yeah but she might just leave if the offer is good enough..she probably feels that Uncharted is her baby. Depends how passionate she is...
Dr. Claus
Vincit qui se vincit
The only thing cringe worthy is your post.
//DEVIL//
Member
omg i laughed so hard at this. was exactly my thought when i watched the video.
such a pussy because he knew he will be eaten alive by the gamers.
fuck off bitch (to call you that is not even strong enough). I am not buying your game. I know I am not gonna make a difference but that is 60$ less for you and your team.
Will never support anyone who has an agenda for either side. I want games the way they were before. not this poiltical bullshit.
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