Support NeoGAF

[Thiagosc777]

I never played Overwatch beyond one free day.... From what I've played, it's basically a multiplayer shooter, where the story/plot is pretty much irrelevant... So... Why is it important again, to portray who is LGBT and who isn't?

For Blizzard to publicize how woke they are.

 

[Orange_Man_Good]

For Blizzard to publicize how woke they are.

AND it makes people like you mad. Which means they are doing good.

 

[DreamsiclesPlz]

Cool, I guess?

My sexuality doesn't define me. I literally never think about sexual orientation of characters in games. It's not important. I play girls in MMOs all the time.

I don't get why this needs to be a big deal, one way or another.

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

I'm getting sick and tired of this stuff infesting our video games. Look, I don't care if you're gay, straight, bi, he, she, they, them whatever, it doesn't matter. I'm tired of games thinking that characters need sexual representation or that people need to know their orientation, gender or biological makeup.

Do I know what Master Chief's gender identity or sexual preference is? No, and I don't care because it doesn't matter. Do I know if Lara Croft is a lesbian or not? No, and I don't care because it doesn't matter. Do I know whether or not Princess Daisy is a female or a trans-woman? No, and I don't care because it doesn't matter.

These are video game characters, I don't need to be clued into what they have between their legs, what they believe themselves to be or who they have sex with. This shitty political agenda trying to brute force ideals onto the populous of gamers through games is reaching a breaking point, someone needs to put an end to this crap.

I just think this is misdirected hostility.

It has nothing to do with the game. Nothing about being gay is represented in the game. It’s just a small side comic book, outside the game, for devout fans.

There’s really nothing to be sick and tired of in this case. Mountain out of a molehill. It doesn’t matter either way.

I don’t see why it makes any more sense to have every video game character be straight than it does to have some harmless LGBQT representation.

Art imitates life.

Got some old men yelling at clouds in this thread , imo

I mean people are literally saying “if they were all straight it wouldn’t be a problem,” why is it a problem if some characters aren’t straight. How does it affect you, personally? Is a gay Soldier: 76 gonna burn your house down? No? Ok cool. Move along

Also, as as been said by numerous people but ignored by the angry people:

Nothing is being forced on anyone. There’s nothing about being gay in the actual game. It’s a side comic book

 

[Enygger_Tzu]

AND it makes people like you mad. Which means they are doing good.

And that's why Trump got elected and right wing is on the rise in the civilized world, because we offered too much to the 4%< of the world for what we get from those kind of people.

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

Kids play over watch. Overwatch could be considered mainstream media these days. Imagine if there were LGBT characters on the disney afternoon or Saturday morning cartoons back when you were a kid. It’d be bedlam in the streets. Just a little perspective.

THERES NOTHING IN THE GAME ABOUT BEING GAY!

Also, homosexuality is real. Are you saying kids should be completely sheltered from the idea that homosexuality exists?

I’m getting uncomfortable with this narrative, honestly.

Maybe I would be better off at Era, which sucks but man I’ve seen real ugly comments on here go uncontested the last 24 hours.

The people upset about a gay hero in a side comic book might have a personal issue they need to cope with.

 

[Thiagosc777]

I mean people are literally saying “if they were all straight it wouldn’t be a problem,”

Quote it then, instead of making up strawman arguments.

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

And that's why Trump got elected and right wing is on the rise in the civilized world, because we offered too much to the 4%< of the world for what we get from those kind of people.

Ahhhhhh. We’ve reached the Trump Talk portion of this gaming thread. Oh boy.

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

Quote it then, instead of making up strawman arguments.

Read it then, tough guy. Been said multiple times in this thread either directly or indirectly.

Ignoring you now. All you do is antagonize people on here. Goodbye.

Pro Tip:

If you never had an issue when a hero was presumed straight, but then proceed to have an issue when said hero is announced gay, that might be a You problem.

 

[guggnichso]

I never played Overwatch beyond one free day.... From what I've played, it's basically a multiplayer shooter, where the story/plot is pretty much irrelevant... So... Why is it important again, to portray who is LGBT and who isn't?

Well, certain people can’t stop to use every mention of homosexuality in video games to tell everyone how tired they are of the „librul agenda“ and how scared they are for their kids and whatnot. That’s why this is a thing, people being offended and wanting a safe space where homosexuality and stuff does not exist.

 

[The Elite]

THERES NOTHING IN THE GAME ABOUT BEING GAY!

Also, homosexuality is real. Are you saying kids should be completely sheltered from the idea that homosexuality exists?

I’m getting uncomfortable with this narrative, honestly.

Maybe I would be better off at Era, which sucks but man I’ve seen real ugly on here go uncontested the last 24 hours.

The people upset about a gay hero in a side comic book might have a personal issue they need to cope with.

I tend to bounce back and forth.

Sometimes this place gets crazy and I go over to Era and when that place gets crazy I come back here.

 

[TGO]

Does any of this matter to you guys or do you just play and not think about it.

Is this needed, wanted? Or is it something along the lines of ticking boxes to appease everyone?

I personally don't think it matters
I have no problem relating to any character.
I think the problem lies with the person more then anything.
I've seen recently conversations regarding Into the Spider-Verse how people are now relating to Spider Man because he isn't white.
But do you really need to be the same colour to relate and enjoy a character.
I related to Blade and love the Character.
But I look nothing like him.
You shouldn't need to have the same skin colour/sexual orientation or be the same gender to relate to a human.

 

[Thiagosc777]

Kids play over watch. Overwatch could be considered mainstream media these days. Imagine if there were LGBT characters on the disney afternoon or Saturday morning cartoons back when you were a kid. It’d be bedlam in the streets. Just a little perspective.

You know, this level of ignorance is astounding.

There are plenty of characters like that in 80s in Japanese shows. In a super sentai series I used to watch as kid there was a female character with a man's voice. She was called "shema", because the Japanese was referencing the English word "shemale". She was an alien, so that explained why she was like that.

Did anyone complain? Nobody gave a shit. Not the kids, not the parents, etc. Maybe the kids made a few jokes, but that was it.

Many anime shows have effeminate characters and many of those were created in the 80s and watched by millions of kids all around the world. Their "gayness" was never made explicit, but they looked different. And in some cases they were one of the protagonists of the series.

Did anyone complain? Nobody gave a shit.

The only ones who care about this nonsense are NPCs. And they like to ignore reality and history and pretend they are "fighting the power" to introduce these poorly written characters that are little more than political propaganda.

This was done better long before these clowns (Blizzard) even existed.

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

I personally don't think it matters
I have no problem relating to any character.
I think the problem lies with the person more then anything.
I've seen recently conversations regarding Into the Spider-Verse how people are now relating to Spider Man because he isn't white.
But do you really need to be the same colour to relate and enjoy a character.
I related to Blade and love the Character.
But I look nothing like him.
You shouldn't need to have the same skin colour/sexual orientation or be the same gender to relate to a human.

Wait....people still have an issue with Miles Morales????

Wow.

 

[Thiagosc777]

Read it then, tough guy. Been said multiple times in this thread either directly or indirectly.

Ignoring you now. All you do is antagonize people on here. Goodbye

That only shows the quality of your reasoning. You can't quote or reference anything anyone actually said. And now is acting pissy. I don't care if you ignore me or not, I am just posting it here to make it clear for everyone else what kind of person you are.

 

[Smash Kirby]

I sort of assumed the characters were leaning towards preferring same-sex partners especially when that is where the Fandom has already taken things. I'm not bothered by it, though more story would be nice from Overwatch.

 

[888]

Think about it this way: imagine you're LGBT. Nearly all major games where sexuality comes up exclude you, sometimes intentionally

I think the word exclude is a bit much. It isn’t saying you can’t participate because of someone’s presented sexuality. It just doesn’t match your own. It shouldn’t stop you from participating unless you choose not to.

 

[Ascend]

I just think this is misdirected hostility.

It has nothing to do with the game. Nothing about being gay is represented in the game. It’s just a small side comic book, outside the game, for devout fans.

There’s really nothing to be sick and tired of in this case. Mountain out of a molehill. It doesn’t matter either way.

I don’t see why it makes any more sense to have every video game character be straight than it does to have some harmless LGBQT representation.

I don't see why their sexuality needs to be included in the first place. There are many more aspects that can make characters interesting, other than sexuality.

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

I think the word exclude is a bit much. It isn’t saying you can’t participate because of someone’s presented sexuality. It just doesn’t match your own. It shouldn’t stop you from participating unless you choose not to.

Maybe not exclude, but not represent.

And if gay people need to be fine with heterosexuality participation, why shouldn’t hetero people need to be fine with homosexual participation.

 

[No Word Count]

If you want to see how people react to a game purely aimed at gay men, you should see Dream Daddy's reactions. I heard OAG's wrote some pretty good articles about it.

Cherry picked "reactions" made by a minuscule percentage of people, while the game holds an 88% positive rating amongst 1800 reviews and well over 200,000 sales.

If you're always looking for "sinners", everyone is going to look like one. If you're always looking to be offended, you always will be.

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

I don't see why their sexuality needs to be included in the first place. There are many more aspects that can make characters interesting, other than sexuality.

But you never said anything when he was presumed straight

 

[guggnichso]

I don't see why their sexuality needs to be included in the first place. There are many more aspects that can make characters interesting, other than sexuality.

And all those things are included also. Do you even READ those comics?

 

[Dunki]

But you never said anything when he was presumed straight

because no one cares now hy make t part of the lore. Honestly I do not care a al about the game or its characters but i do not even know if here are straight characters in this game. When your sexuality becomes a selling point hen you are drifting into token character territory.

 

[Enygger_Tzu]

And if gay people need to be fine with heterosexuality participation, why shouldn’t hetero people need to be fine with homosexual participation.

There is one more issue on it.

Non-heterosexuals lambasted heterosexuals for their toxic masculinity, male gaze, objectification, fanservice and such and now the show is on the other foot.

Because if you keep harping on and on that the 95%> of the population is doing it wrong...well, you better be able to receive the same treatment.

 

[Winter's End]

because no one cares now hy make t part of the lore. Honestly I do not care a al about the game or its characters but i do not even know if here are straight characters in this game. When your sexuality becomes a selling point hen you are drifting into token character territory.

But it's not, it's not even in the game it's just a side story published on the web 90% of the people who play the game will never even read.

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

because no one cares now hy make t part of the lore. Honestly I do not care a al about the game or its characters but i do not even know if here are straight characters in this game. When your sexuality becomes a selling point hen you are drifting into token character territory.

It’s not a selling point whatsoever.

Was it a selling point when he was presumed straight and speculated to be a father of another hero?

It’s a non-issue. Regardless. Either way. Non-issue.

I love how every non-straight white male in anything is considered tokenism now. That’s a lazy take IMO. Oh that character isn’t like me!!!! TOKEN!

 

[Dunki]

But it's not it's not even in the game it's just a sidestory published on the web 90% of the people who play the game will never even read.

But it is canon and lore done by blizzard. That makes it even more tokenery to be honest. If a character in a story just exist to be gay, trans, black, asian etc then they are token characters to me.

But Again I do not care at all about these characters or the lore so if people playing the game are happy I think it is fine as long they not go he Bioware route.

Again a token character to me is when its main purpose is to be gay etc. Or if you meant someone in Bioware games that tell you in 2 minutes how gay they are, or that they are trans etc. This is the whole purpose of these characters. They are a gay, trans character and not a character who is gay.

 

[CDiggity]

This is all well and good, but much like Tracer, the 76 reveal has caused a lot of "Great, he's gay but gay with the wrong person so it sucks" in parts of the fandom and it's a little frustrating. Shippers gonna ship I guess

 

[Winter's End]

But it is canon and lore done by blizzard. That makes it even more tokenery to be honest. If a character in a story just exist to be gay, trans, black, asian etc then they are token characters to me.

But Again I do not care at all about these characters or the lore so if people playing the game are happy I think it is fine as long they not go he Bioware route.

Again a token character to me is when its main purpose is to be gay etc. Or if you meant someone in Bioware games that tell you in 2 minutes how gay they are, or that they are trans etc. This is the whole purpose of these characters. They are a gay, trans character and not a character who is gay.

This Character is in the game for years now and no one even knew about his sexual orientaion until it was mentioned in a short story published on the web years later so how can this even be a case of tokenism by your definition this doesn't make any sense.

 

[Dunki]

This Character is in the game for years now and no one knew about his sexual orientaion until it was mentioned in a short story published on the web years later so how can this even be a case of tokenism by your definition this doesn't make any sense.

It depends how the story is build and set up. Is it only a story about him being gay? Is it something you see in the first couple pages? Again I do not know how it is set up. But if this is the main part of the story than it is token for me personally.

 

[Alexios]

There are places in the world (I don't mean nations or anything, but communities, cities, and so on) with higher percentages of vegans, of gays, of whatever, it's silly to bring in total world population stats into this not to mention not everyone is openly gay or open to query to make a real assessment. Plus I doubt anyone brought stats like that up when a character was presented as a vegan rather than gay...

But especially so when most people aren't super powered hero soldiers but all of them in OW are, lol, it's a pretty special case scenario so it can have other special cases.

It depends how the story is build and set up. Is it only a story about him being gay? Is it something you see in the first couple pages? Again I do not know how it is set up. But if this is the main part of the story than it is token for me personally.

It's set up as an emotional battle scar for him, could have been a woman or a man involved, it's not got more attention to it cos it was a man. The people giving it most attention are those who hate it tbh.

 

[guggnichso]

It depends how the story is build and set up. Is it only a story about him being gay? Is it something you see in the first couple pages? Again I do not know how it is set up. But if this is the main part of the story than it is token for me personally.

Why don’t you just read it before you comment. I mean, you care SO much about this, just read it. It does not even cost money.

 

[Dunki]

Why don’t you just read it before you comment. I mean, you care SO much about this, just read it. It does not even cost money.

I care so much about t? I posted one post and wanted to leave it at that. But then a discussion was started.

I do not fucking care I was talking in general. And I mostly named Bioware as a bad example. I also was asking if there even straight characters nothing else.

 

[Filben]

My question is, how much representation do you need to enjoy something.

Not much. Depends on the game and context. If a game takes place in let's say modern day Capetown, I'd expect all kinds of people of different background and of different skin color. If it takes place in medieval Bohemia I'm okay with all people being white.

In regards of Overwatch it fits the style of the game with so many heroes. So many of different countries – why not of different sexes, genders, and sexual preferences. Also, Jeff literally said "the characters of Overwatch are your characters, you can do with them what you want" (that included the porn as well, I guess). And it's not like the background and whatnot influences the game(play) in any way, so it's not big deal after all.

 

[Dunki]

It's set up as an emotional battle scar for him, could have been a woman or a man involved, it's not got more attention to it cos it was a man. The people giving it most attention are those who hate it tbh.

So basically it is the old Fridge trope "progressive" gamer hate so much when it involves women? Ok maybe it is not token but then lazy storytelling?

 

[RedVIper]

The only thing more irrelevant than overwatch is an overwatchs characters sexuality.

That said most characters in all video games have an "unknown" sexuality, you don't know if they're gay, straight or bi and it doesn't matter. It's kinda stupid that overwatch community is always complaining about lack of representation even though they have like a super diverse cast.

 

[Alexios]

So basically it is the old Fridge trope "progressive" gamer hate so much when it involves women? Ok maybe it is not token but then lazy storytelling?

It's on par with all the other side stories people like, the point is the emotional scar, those who hate gays make the point that the scar has the affection of a man as its origins though, pretty sad.

 

[Ascend]

But you never said anything when he was presumed straight

Why is a character "presumed straight" according to you when no sexuality is mentioned? As long as sexuality is not mentioned, a character can technically be anything. And even if it is mentioned, that's not a guarantee. Even if a male character has a son, he can still technically be gay, but tried to live as a heterosexual sometime in his early life where he got his son, for example.

These are all fictional characters, and anyone can make up whatever background they want for them. You love to presume a straight default because it enables you to victim-play for the LGBT community. I guess you subconsciously do know that heterosexuality is in reality the default, and the rest are.... Divergent. Yes. I said it. Heterosexuality is the biological default of a species, because sexuality is first and foremost a method of reproduction, and without heterosexuality, the species goes extinct. This translates into a cultural default, of what people are generally willing to see and aren't willing to see. You can try and create a culture that goes against biology, but ultimately, it will lose, sooner or later.

That being said... For me things are simple. Anyone is free to do what they want with their own life, as long as it's not imposed on others. That means, the default can be presented easily, while the divergent aspects, unless made for that specific divergent audience, will always be an imposition from the divergent on the default.

And if gay people need to be fine with heterosexuality participation, why shouldn’t hetero people need to be fine with homosexual participation.

See above, regarding the default and divergent perspective. Additionally... I have to ask... What's the limit here? Next thing we'll have to accept looking at people making out with children because pedophiles also want to be included.

And all those things are included also. Do you even READ those comics?

As previously mentioned;

I never played Overwatch beyond one free day.... From what I've played, it's basically a multiplayer shooter, where the story/plot is pretty much irrelevant... So... Why is it important again, to portray who is LGBT and who isn't?

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

Why is a character "presumed straight" according to you when no sexuality is mentioned? As long as sexuality is not mentioned, a character can technically be anything. And even if it is mentioned, that's not a guarantee. Even if a male character has a son, he can still technically be gay, but tried to live as a heterosexual sometime in his early life where he got his son, for example.

These are all fictional characters, and anyone can make up whatever background they want for them. You love to presume a straight default because it enables you to victim-play for the LGBT community. I guess you subconsciously do know that heterosexuality is in reality the default, and the rest are.... Divergent. Yes. I said it. Heterosexuality is the biological default of a species, because sexuality is first and foremost a method of reproduction, and without heterosexuality, the species goes extinct. This translates into a cultural default, of what people are generally willing to see and aren't willing to see. You can try and create a culture that goes against biology, but ultimately, it will lose, sooner or later.

That being said... For me things are simple. Anyone is free to do what they want with their own life, as long as it's not imposed on others. That means, the default can be presented easily, while the divergent aspects, unless made for that specific divergent audience, will always be an imposition from the divergent on the default.


See above, regarding the default and divergent perspective. Additionally... I have to ask... What's the limit here? Next thing we'll have to accept looking at people making out with children because pedophiles also want to be included.


As previously mentioned;

I still don’t understand what harm is caused by expanding on a character’s backstory in a little side comic. Again, it’s not in the game. I repeat, it’s Not In The Game

 

[Orange_Man_Good]

And that's why Trump got elected and right wing is on the rise in the civilized world, because we offered too much to the 4%< of the world for what we get from those kind of people.

There is one more issue on it.

Non-heterosexuals lambasted heterosexuals for their toxic masculinity, male gaze, objectification, fanservice and such and now the show is on the other foot.

Because if you keep harping on and on that the 95%> of the population is doing it wrong...well, you better be able to receive the same treatment.

I don't think you know what being gay is about.

 

[manfestival]

Honestly I find the lore in this stuff mostly irrelevant but it's almost a cop out to make it a thing that he is gay but have nothing to show for it.

 

[Dunki]

I still don’t understand what harm is caused by expanding on a character’s backstory in a little side comic. Again, it’s not in the game. I repeat, it’s Not In The Game

Because of this:

Also, Jeff literally said "the characters of Overwatch are your characters, you can do with them what you want" (that included the porn as well, I guess)

No they can not when you put your lore and canon into these characters.

 

[digitaltrance]

Ah yes, the PC needs of this generation needs to be met.

 

[Orange_Man_Good]

You can try and create a culture that goes against biology

Do you have an issue with condoms?

it will lose, sooner or later.

It can't. You can't remove homosexuality from the species. It like saying "I will remove all people will red hair because the majority has black hair".

See above, regarding the default and divergent perspective. Additionally... I have to ask... What's the limit here? Next thing we'll have to accept looking at people making out with children because pedophiles also want to be included.

This already happens in a lot of games and no one seems to mind though:

This is a character that you can marry in a popular Nintendo game with the excuse that she's a "1000 years old dragon". It's staight though, so no one minds.

 

[Alexios]

What's the limit here? Next thing we'll have to accept looking at people making out with children because pedophiles also want to be included.

So two adults consenting to erotic/sexual relations is in what way comparable to seduction/rape of minors? Reminds me of the right winged tabloids in my country posting bs about country X now allowing people to marry or fuck dogs by law and how they want to bring this shit to our country and destroy our holy culture same way they want to bring gay marriage (it was a recent breakthrough here, yay).

 

[LucidFeuer]

https://m.ign.com/articles/2019/01/07/overwatch-new-short-story-explores-soldier-76s-lgbtq-backstory

It's a problem of alienation, political agenda and coherence.

A character has to be vague enough in his/her -implicit- identity for most people to identify with the experience.
When you start forcing identity politics, that is, a form of social determinism in that your character instead of being an individual with subjective experience that other can discover or recognise themselves in, you are enclosing and forcing identity markers that exclude others.

Soldier 76 being gay makes no fucking sense. It would for Hanzo for exemple it would be coherent, but Soldier 76 being gay is clearly a forced improvisation to cater to a minority while alienating all the other players. But then it's a matter of representation: are all other sexualities or identities represented so as not to feel left-out? No.
Because not only you now have to add a bisexual character, which I'm sure will happen, but also various androgynous, intersex, trans-identity and most notably, the way more nuance and varied sexualities, hetero or lgbt, there is like I don't know, bdsm, fetish, furries etc...as well as neuroatypical, disabled people...

If not? You are forcing other's people exclusive identity and experience and other players while invisibilising most of them...and of course that will not end well (get woke, go broke).

 

[Ascend]

I still don’t understand what harm is caused by expanding on a character’s backstory in a little side comic. Again, it’s not in the game. I repeat, it’s Not In The Game

You know... Even though this video touted Overwatch as a good example of diversity, it has a section in it, that explains the issue...

3:19 to 5:05




The harm is the tokenization like she says, and that things escalate... Arguably the video is still relevant beyond 5:05, where she explains the escalation further.

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

Ascend,

So you’re honesty saying that if the comic had shown Soldier hooking with a chick or something confirming he’s straight, you would still be posting the same thing?

Ah yes, the PC needs of this generation needs to be met.

Oh heaven forbid!

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

It's a problem of alienation, political agenda and coherence.

A character has to be vague enough in his/her -implicit- identity for most people to identify with the experience.
When you start forcing identity politics, that is, a form of social determinism in that your character instead of being an individual with subjective experience that other can discover or recognise themselves in, you are enclosing and forcing identity markers that exclude others.

Soldier 76 being gay makes no fucking sense. It would for Hanzo for exemple it would be coherent, but Soldier 76 being gay is clearly a forced improvisation to cater to a minority while alienating all the other players. But then it's a matter of representation: are all other sexualities or identities represented so as not to feel left-out? No.
Because not only you now have to add a bisexual character, which I'm sure will happen, but also various androgynous, intersex, trans-identity and most notably, the way more nuance and varied sexualities, hetero or lgbt, there is like I don't know, bdsm, fetish, furries etc...as well as neuroatypical, disabled people...

If not? You are forcing other's people exclusive identity and experience and other players while invisibilising most of them...and of course that will not end well (get woke, go broke).

Who is being alienated? Who is being “invisibled?”

If he was straight there’d be no agenda? Why doesn’t it make sense for Soldier? Why does it make sense for Hanzo?

So is it better off if every hero is straight?

 

[Ascend]

So two adults consenting to erotic/sexual relations is in what way comparable to seduction/rape of minors? Reminds me of the right winged tabloids in my country posting bs about country X now allowing people to marry or fuck dogs by law and how they want to bring this shit to our country and destroy our holy culture same way they want to bring gay marriage (it was a recent breakthrough here, yay).

It isn't. But that doesn't mean that that movement is not trying to take off, after the success of the LGBT movement;

https://socialnewsdaily.com/73251/scholar-deems-pedophilia-unchangeable/