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Next Xbox is ‘More Advanced’ Than the PS5 according to Insiders.
- Thread starter Afro Republican
- Start date
SonGoku
Member
That's the problem i have with using rumors as confirmation bias, yo can easily find one that supports the opposing view; Point in case, there have been rumors of Sony working closely with AMD developing Navi, so theres that.
I rather look at the known facts and use critical thinking here
- Sony wants to make the best console they can, a true generational leap. They will use the best tech available for mass production (that includes EUV if available)
- MS is not going to lose million or billions to release a more powerful console
- Nextbox would have to be significantly more expensive ($200+) to showcase a significant gap while releasing at the same time
That's not it. I asked you because in this hypothetical scenario your argument is MS does not intend to sell many Sneks (paper launch) and instead rely on Lockart, implying PS5 would skip on 7nm+ because its not ready for mass production.
1 million is way to much, if that kind of volume production is available, there is nothing stopping Sony from using it.
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SaucyJack
Member
Can’t believe this thread is still going round in circles.
- Sony didn’t actually release any specs.
- Whatever they have in dev kits now ain’t final
- And possibly won’t be for another year
- We know even less about next box
- Rumours, speculation and “insider” information is worthless
At this stage anyone saying Xbox (or PS5 for that matter) will be more powerful is talking out of their arse.
- Sony didn’t actually release any specs.
- Whatever they have in dev kits now ain’t final
- And possibly won’t be for another year
- We know even less about next box
- Rumours, speculation and “insider” information is worthless
At this stage anyone saying Xbox (or PS5 for that matter) will be more powerful is talking out of their arse.
SonGoku
Member
The hype train its just getting started!
nowhat
Member
That's a dangerous thing to do (apologies for the subtitles, couldn't find a better clip):
ethomaz
Banned
Most process today uses Ultraviolet to design the chip over the silicon (think about a 3D print but at nanometers size).
EUV means Extreme Ultraviolet is a smaller version of the normal Ultraviolet so they can “print” in the silicon at even lower sizes plus the accuracy of the “print” increases.
Moving to lower process you will need EUV or even lower lights.
EUV is expect to reach 13.5 nm when mature and the mass production is planned to start in 2020.
The + or ++ is only a marketing way to say the process has some improvements... it can use different light source or not.
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Slings and Arrows
Banned
I think 'lockhart' is just the xbox one x.
Why would they go to the trouble of designing a new case + all new hardware, just to hit the drawing board again in 1-2 yrs time?
If anything, the xbox one x will be forward compatible. It has enough juice to play 1080p 60fps games, so I can see next gen games coming to the current gen.
Look at the start of this gen, we had a weird period of cross-over between ps360 games and xbox one/ps4 games. It makes sense to release a 4k game on Nextbox and a 1080p game on this current gen.
That way, Microsoft can get rid of the Xbox one and Xbox one S(AD) consoles. Consumers have a choice of three then; 1) Stick with the current xbox one SAD and play GAAS, 2) purchase an xbox one x to play GAAS and next gen at 1080p and 3) buy the most powerful version which will give you full backwards compatibility and access to all the new games.
TL;DR Microsoft have already started next gen and have fulfilled the dream of forwards compat AND tied two gens together without any of their users having to abandon the xbox family/make a choice between PlayStation and Xbox (like we saw this gen)
Why would they go to the trouble of designing a new case + all new hardware, just to hit the drawing board again in 1-2 yrs time?
If anything, the xbox one x will be forward compatible. It has enough juice to play 1080p 60fps games, so I can see next gen games coming to the current gen.
Look at the start of this gen, we had a weird period of cross-over between ps360 games and xbox one/ps4 games. It makes sense to release a 4k game on Nextbox and a 1080p game on this current gen.
That way, Microsoft can get rid of the Xbox one and Xbox one S(AD) consoles. Consumers have a choice of three then; 1) Stick with the current xbox one SAD and play GAAS, 2) purchase an xbox one x to play GAAS and next gen at 1080p and 3) buy the most powerful version which will give you full backwards compatibility and access to all the new games.
TL;DR Microsoft have already started next gen and have fulfilled the dream of forwards compat AND tied two gens together without any of their users having to abandon the xbox family/make a choice between PlayStation and Xbox (like we saw this gen)
prinz_valium
Member
Here is even more evidence of what I said.
X2 most likely a chiplet design
Read about WPH output for 7nm and 7nm+
Because of EUV the latter is a lot lower. But if you go for less units, lower output does not matter.
semiengineering.com
If you need 5 million working dies a year or 15 million is a huge difference.
Why don't you get that?
And i also said, that not every part of the CHIP will be made in 7nm+
Sony is not using 7nm+, because they never intended to, don't need it for their performance goal and it would not be feasible for what they want to achieve.
X2 most likely a chiplet design
No not a paper launch.
Read about WPH output for 7nm and 7nm+
Because of EUV the latter is a lot lower. But if you go for less units, lower output does not matter.
Single Vs. Multi-Patterning EUV
Single Vs. Multi-Patterning EUV Why this choice isn't as obvious as it might look.
semiengineering.com
If you need 5 million working dies a year or 15 million is a huge difference.
Why don't you get that?
And i also said, that not every part of the CHIP will be made in 7nm+
Sony is not using 7nm+, because they never intended to, don't need it for their performance goal and it would not be feasible for what they want to achieve.
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ResilientBanana
Member
Xbox One X and Lockhart will be different architectures.
That's coming off of real performance metrics (not game-framerate measurements done by enthusiasts), in shipped games that had a setup similar enough to make the comparison relevant (and not cripple one side or the other by relying on elements that were significantly skewed, eg. PS3's ultra weak single CPU core or offloading GPU compute to SPE array).
Now - it was absolutely possible to construct scenarios that favor one GPU or the other, but that's just moving the goal-posts. The fact that RSX had several games that ran at higher (and up to 2x) resolution of 360 counterparts says all that needs to be said about relative differences between the two being smaller than X1 to PS4.
If you paired Cell+Xenos and kept the memory-configuration unchanged from 360, it'd be mostly a waste of resources, and I can practically guarantee it'd run some games worse than X360 did..
HarryKS
Member
Is a chiplet like a manlet?
Snake29
RSI Employee of the Year
Here is even more evidence of what I said.
X2 most likely a chiplet design
No not a paper launch.
Read about WPH output for 7nm and 7nm+
Because of EUV the latter is a lot lower. But if you go for less units, lower output does not matter.
Single Vs. Multi-Patterning EUV
Single Vs. Multi-Patterning EUV Why this choice isn't as obvious as it might look.
If you need 5 million working dies a year or 15 million is a huge difference.
Why don't you get that?
And i also said, that not every part of the CHIP will be made in 7nm+
Sony is not using 7nm+, because they never intended to, don't need it for their performance goal and it would not be feasible for what they want to achieve.
Where is your evidence that they will not use 7nm+? In really don’t get how all these discussions go all over place.
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Slings and Arrows
Banned
Have Microsoft stated as much and how different will they be?
I don't know much about this stuff tbh, so any info would be appreciated
prinz_valium
Member
Zen 2 is 7nm there is no Zen 2 in 7nm+ made and that will never happen. Zen 3 is 7nm+
Ps5 is based on Navi 10 and Navi 10 is also 7nm.
Anaconda is probably based on Arcturus (Navi 20) which is due later and rumored to be 7nm+
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shark sandwich
tenuously links anime, pedophile and incels
It’s very possible that next Xbox might release later than PS5 and/or at a higher price (alongside a weaker and lower priced version - which would give them some leeway to price the “pro” model higher). It’s also somewhat possible that MS is willing to lose money on hardware as they push more toward subscription services.
I wouldn’t be so quick to downplay the possibility of Anaconda having a decent power advantage (say 20-30%)
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
So the next Xbox is going to use Zen3 the same year Zen3 will be doing their trial runs (by mid year at that)? Sounds expensive.
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Posted?
forum.beyond3d.com
Baseless Next Generation Rumors with no Technical Merits [pre E3 2019] *spawn*
would love for the nextgen consoles to be user-upgradable beyond just the storage.. nice modular pieces parts. Oh, you want the midgen cpu and gpu upgrade? Just slide out the main board model and slide in this upgrade board. All similiar to older style laptop modules. Ah yes, the holy grail...
forum.beyond3d.com
prinz_valium
Member
No. The next Xbox (both consoles) will also use Zen2 in 7nm
Just for Anaconda and the GPU part, they'll use the more expensive 7nm+ node.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
So you are saying they are going with a discrete setup and not an SOC?
This still does not seem financially sound for the console maker.
shark sandwich
tenuously links anime, pedophile and incels
Most likely both next gen consoles will be using chiplets instead of a single piece of silicon.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Still does not seem economical to use two different fab processes, especially with one being so late to the table in comparison to the other, but we will see.
Snake29
RSI Employee of the Year
Can i see the rumour where this is based on? Sounds more like a disaster “for only being more powerful”, as only the hardcore will buy your console. Sony will be again the biggest console maker en seller.
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Insane Metal
Member
So MS is going for the more expensive console again? Good luck with that.
prinz_valium
Member
Insane Metal
Member
Watch and see both Sony and MS go with Chiplets design.
14nm + 7nm.
14nm + 7nm.
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ethomaz
Banned
Looks like me in a pub drinking some beers and writing on the paperPosted?
Baseless Next Generation Rumors with no Technical Merits [pre E3 2019] *spawn*
would love for the nextgen consoles to be user-upgradable beyond just the storage.. nice modular pieces parts. Oh, you want the midgen cpu and gpu upgrade? Just slide out the main board model and slide in this upgrade board. All similiar to older style laptop modules. Ah yes, the holy grail...
I’m drinking now... do you guys wants to see my leaks?
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Looks like me in a pub drinking some beers and writing on the paper
I’m drinking now... do you guys wants to see my leaks?
LOL
Hold my beer
Snake29
RSI Employee of the Year
You guys believe every "leak" that comes along very easily. Even people at B3D don’t even directly believe it.
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LittleBusters
Banned
My Anaconda don't want none unless it got buns hun!
Shin
Banned
For the sake of discussion...
They have better customers, there is a saying in sales "returning customers are the best customers".
Over the span of 10 years give or take I remember reading articles that the attach-rate on Xbox is higher.
Someone mentioned Apple/Google entering the foray of gaming/streaming in another thread which lead to me checking MS/Sony's financial result of 2018.
As it turns out despite the 2:1 sold ratio (40M vs 90M+-) the revenue for their gaming division was/is 10B vs 12.5B (the rest you can fill in...).
They don't need to sell as much to make about the same amount of money yet have just about as much at their disposal, wouldn't strange for their budget to be higher.
nowhat
Member
How Microsoft’s record-setting $10B gaming year compares to rivals Sony and Nintendo
In a fiscal year littered with firsts, Microsoft's gaming division hit a new high water mark.
That says $10B for Microsoft and $17.7B for Sony. Which would be pretty much in line with the market share.
When people make up stuff they actually give way more details than when they are just telling the truth
prinz_valium
Member
Microsoft's gaming division made $11.6bn in CY2018How Microsoft’s record-setting $10B gaming year compares to rivals Sony and Nintendo
In a fiscal year littered with firsts, Microsoft's gaming division hit a new high water mark.www.geekwire.com
That says $10B for Microsoft and $17.7B for Sony. Which would be pretty much in line with the market share.
Sony's gaming division made $20.35bn in CY2018 or 75% more
Shin
Banned
Is it? because I came across different figures and went with the 12.5 as that popped up on 2 sites.
The other figures that I came across are 10B, 10.5B, 12B, 12.7B, 12.9B and now the 17B+ you linked and now someone else is saying 11.6 and 20.35B.
That is quite funny as I'd like to know how these site do their work given that there are official financial reports and all. Feels like I've uncovered a mess.
If you're right then you're right, I went with 12.5B as I came across it on IGN and PushSquare figured 2 sources was enough to run with (apparently something else was unearthed).
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ResilientBanana
Member
Jaguar CPU / Polaris GPU is not the same as Zen 2 CPU / Navi GPU. While they share similarities the Zen 2 / Navi combo will have more features and greater efficiencies than the Jaguar / Polaris combo, however, they won’t be one in the same.Have Microsoft stated as much and how different will they be?
I don't know much about this stuff tbh, so any info would be appreciated
LuvOfThaGame
Banned
Here is even more evidence of what I said.
X2 most likely a chiplet design
No not a paper launch.
Read about WPH output for 7nm and 7nm+
Because of EUV the latter is a lot lower. But if you go for less units, lower output does not matter.
Single Vs. Multi-Patterning EUV
Single Vs. Multi-Patterning EUV Why this choice isn't as obvious as it might look.
If you need 5 million working dies a year or 15 million is a huge difference.
Why don't you get that?
And i also said, that not every part of the CHIP will be made in 7nm+
Sony is not using 7nm+, because they never intended to, don't need it for their performance goal and it would not be feasible for what they want to achieve.
I'd be careful with quoting blue. He's a nice guy and knowledgeable about computer architecture, but falls into the trap of throwing anything that will stick and make it look like it's fact. Not too dissimilar from what a couple of posters here at GAF does, but this is where the whole 2nd GPU on x1 came from.
it_wasn't_me
Banned
Here is even more evidence of what I said.
X2 most likely a chiplet design
No not a paper launch.
Read about WPH output for 7nm and 7nm+
Because of EUV the latter is a lot lower. But if you go for less units, lower output does not matter.
Single Vs. Multi-Patterning EUV
Single Vs. Multi-Patterning EUV Why this choice isn't as obvious as it might look.
If you need 5 million working dies a year or 15 million is a huge difference.
Why don't you get that?
And i also said, that not every part of the CHIP will be made in 7nm+
Sony is not using 7nm+, because they never intended to, don't need it for their performance goal and it would not be feasible for what they want to achieve.
Yeah, quoting a one of MisterXmedia's pupil is a good start. They're back again.
Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
Oh the DGPU. Keep digging.
ANIMAL1975
Member
This train is running downhill and just lost them brakes 
Insane Metal
Member
Just imagine if the final hw for PS5 is more powerful than the next xbox. Fanboys would commit harakiri. Lol
Chozofication_
Banned
This is the one generation where I don't think it'll matter. It would've mattered if xbox one was more powerful than ps4 to be sure, but now?
First of all there's diminishing returns setting in big time, and second, even if the high end sku is more powerful than ps5, the weakest baseline console will still be a microsoft machine. Again. Or best case, the entry level MS machine will be on par with PS5. Not betting on that though, you'd think the baseline Xbox would be far cheaper than the high end one.
Ps5 will be in a safe spot power wise no matter what. That said, I do believe MS will have the most powerful console again.
First of all there's diminishing returns setting in big time, and second, even if the high end sku is more powerful than ps5, the weakest baseline console will still be a microsoft machine. Again. Or best case, the entry level MS machine will be on par with PS5. Not betting on that though, you'd think the baseline Xbox would be far cheaper than the high end one.
Ps5 will be in a safe spot power wise no matter what. That said, I do believe MS will have the most powerful console again.
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Slings and Arrows
Banned
Just a thought...
If Microsoft go GaaS, why would they pump the extra billions into having the most powerful console?
If Stadia sets a trend, surely the money spent on a high end console would be better spent on the server farms?
If Microsoft go GaaS, why would they pump the extra billions into having the most powerful console?
If Stadia sets a trend, surely the money spent on a high end console would be better spent on the server farms?
Shin
Banned
There wasn't much to begin with via via saying sources that work at Microsoft and have been trustworthy for years.This train is running downhill and just lost them brakes
There's the Arcturus situation which is a "special chip", whatever the hell that means and popped up in a image of an XDK.
I'm really curious why Sony didn't go for Zen 3 or whether Microsoft will because everything is on schedule with the CPU's.
There's a gap of about 10-12 months that the node is available, Kirin985 won't use all the fabs TSMC have nor Apple for that matter.
Freeman454
Member
thelastword
Banned
So now XBOX is going to launch later than PS5, all in a vested interest to be more powerful........Just like they launched XBONEX later than PRO and that changed the game for them.........
You know what would be funny, if MS came to an E3 stage 2019 and said......"XBOX ANACONDA: $499, March 2020" ahead of Sony's PS5, some would blow their filmsy gaskets and the same people talking now about "ultimate power, moar power", may very well do a 180, to the tune of; "Well, 360 came out before PS4 and it lit the world on fire", "Genius move by MS, if you ask me", They need to come out ahead and hit Sony hard, by the time Sony comes in, XB2 woul;d have already amassed a huge userbase and all the third party support and backing, exclusive DLC and the like......"Remember guys, first to 10 million consoles wins the gen", better believe man......Ohhhh! and... "Power does not matter".....Why do you think MS bought all those studios, MS first party will rule the roost with quality content before Sony can even sneeze anything next gen.....Better believe.....
...You know what would be funny, if MS came to an E3 stage 2019 and said......"XBOX ANACONDA: $499, March 2020" ahead of Sony's PS5, some would blow their filmsy gaskets and the same people talking now about "ultimate power, moar power", may very well do a 180, to the tune of; "Well, 360 came out before PS4 and it lit the world on fire", "Genius move by MS, if you ask me", They need to come out ahead and hit Sony hard, by the time Sony comes in, XB2 woul;d have already amassed a huge userbase and all the third party support and backing, exclusive DLC and the like......"Remember guys, first to 10 million consoles wins the gen", better believe man......Ohhhh! and... "Power does not matter".....Why do you think MS bought all those studios, MS first party will rule the roost with quality content before Sony can even sneeze anything next gen.....Better believe.....
LittleBusters
Banned
I wonder if the world is 'gamed out' and the next gen will be a complete dud as kids in the 2020s will opt for reading instead?