Ellery
Member
yeah the costs add up.
People expecting a 12+TF, 2TB SSD, 32GB, 8c/16t 3.2GHZ console are looking at a 1300$ PC.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
- Status
yeah the costs add up.
People expecting a 12+TF, 2TB SSD, 32GB, 8c/16t 3.2GHZ console are looking at a 1300$ PC.
GermanZepp
Member
Going by the Goku tit chart my guess is 56 CU at 1600 11.5TF.
Darius87
Member
rather then adding extra shader engines which one of them is 25% of gpu in 64CU setup, better should be improving existing components in existing shader engines like geometry, rasterizers, and add more CU's on top, that would prevent from adding + 16CU by increasing 1 shader engine and would be more flexible by adding 2CU in shader total would increase by 8CU in total of 72CU's, i think that's possible customisation sony with amd could do,.
ethomaz
Banned
GCN is already 8 years old and AMD never did that "easy" config to add more 2CUs per sharder.
It is a hardware limitation and even Raja saying they never had time to work to break that limitation (each GCN version had a minimum of 2 years of R&D).
So in 8 years didn't have time to break the 64CUs limit... somehow now for Next Gen consoles they will break it in months.
Over 64CUs is impossible... sorry.
Just think a bit about... do you believe AMD is happy not having a card to trade blows with nVidia? A card with more than 64 CUs? To break that limitation they need a complete redesign of GCN and that is what everybody wants but AMD couldn't do yet (or they didn't have time).
Last edited:
Darius87
Member
it's not question of months probably 3 + years. what i believe was goal for sony in first place to fix bottlenecks in polaris(ps4) arch.
I wouldn't say that but it's clealy not worth the effort.
no i don't think they goal is to beat nvidia, GCN arch wasn't for gaming in the first place, so competing with nvidia in high end is chasing dream that they never..........
Von Hugh
Member
11.5 TF - 12 TF is pretty fucking good.
Add a CPU that isn't dead on arrival such as Jaguar, faster RAM, a speedy SSD, games that are built from ground up for the new architecture, and the general experience will feel like a proper generational leap already.
I am excite. Base PS4 games already look so good, everything beyond that from now on is just a plus.
This is how you stay positive and not get let down when you are hoping dearly for 14 TF machines with 32 GB of RAM such as OP.
Add a CPU that isn't dead on arrival such as Jaguar, faster RAM, a speedy SSD, games that are built from ground up for the new architecture, and the general experience will feel like a proper generational leap already.
I am excite. Base PS4 games already look so good, everything beyond that from now on is just a plus.
This is how you stay positive and not get let down when you are hoping dearly for 14 TF machines with 32 GB of RAM such as OP.
ethomaz
Banned
Well each one can believe on anything
For me over 64CUs is impossible and AMD should be super happy to have a card with more than 64CUs to compete with nVidia and I will say they hard worked to do that but failed because that limitation is not something that simple like some posters in the other forum is trying to make it.
AMD always competed with nVidia on high-end until GCN couldn't envolve anymore so they spread these bullshit about not competing on the high-end that some fans believes to be true lol
Last edited:
ResilientBanana
Member
Personally, my mind has changed on the whole SSD thing, prices are falling pretty rapidly.
I'm somewhat realistically expecting
- 1TB QLC NVMe SSD
- 16GB GDDR6
- 4GB DDR4 (25% on this one, I really don't think there will be separate RAM for the OS now that the SSD is there)
- 8C/16T Ryzen 3600 3.6GHZ @ 65W
- Navi RX3080 50+ CU with customizations for bandwidth @ 1.8 Ghz or less
Although my heart wants
- 1TB SLC NVMe SSD
- 24GB GDDR6
- 4GB DDR4
- 8C/16T Ryzen 3700 3.8GHZ @ 95W
- Navi RX3080 64CU with customizations for bandwidth @ 1.8 Ghz
Last edited:
ethomaz
Banned
A slide showing the hardware limit of GCN:
- Up to 4 Shader Engines
- 1-16 CUs per Shader Engine
- 1-4 RBEs per Shader Engine (4 ROPs per RBE)
That is a presentation done in 2014 with GCN 3.0 but that is true today with GCN 5.1 (Vega 7nm).
You can't go over that with GCN.
- Up to 4 Shader Engines
- 1-16 CUs per Shader Engine
- 1-4 RBEs per Shader Engine (4 ROPs per RBE)
That is a presentation done in 2014 with GCN 3.0 but that is true today with GCN 5.1 (Vega 7nm).
You can't go over that with GCN.
Last edited:
Ellery
Member
I would say the "somewhat realistically expectations" are reasonable expectations, but I think the GPU will have lower clocks because of the console design and difficulty cooling.
I mean Sony officially confirmed it is going to be a super fast SSD. Maybe they find some hybrid solution like a 256GB NVMe SSD and a 1TB HDD, but I guess it could very well be a 1TB NVMe SSD in late 2020.
Buying in bulk and prices going down I could see that happening yeah.
bhunachicken
Member
More or less inline with what I'm expecting. Minimum of 16GB application RAM. I'm be disappointed to see 16GB RAM with 4GB reserved for the OS (at launch, coming down after that). 11-12TF GPU.
TeamGhobad
Banned
Anaconda Zen3 rumor:
using more than 2 threads to do RT. not sure if its true but the guy said he has 3 independent sources. I hope he gets lynched if he's wrong.
using more than 2 threads to do RT. not sure if its true but the guy said he has 3 independent sources. I hope he gets lynched if he's wrong.
bhunachicken
Member
Okay, someone please ELI5 about threads and cores:
Why would you want to disable threads and cores in a CPU? If the thing is capable of N threads, why disable 1? Likewise, there are X cores, but 2 of them are disabled. Why is this? It is something to do with yields? Also, what does that really mean?
Why would you want to disable threads and cores in a CPU? If the thing is capable of N threads, why disable 1? Likewise, there are X cores, but 2 of them are disabled. Why is this? It is something to do with yields? Also, what does that really mean?
Insane Metal
Member
^ That sounds about in line with Phil saying they needed stronger CPUs. Also, Zen 3 is apparently almost ready, for a 2020 launch they'll have it done.
ethomaz
Banned
Last edited:
demigod
Member
I like how we went from Zen 1 last year's speculation thread to now Zen 3.
TeamGhobad
Banned
cliffys:
Threads are not effective for games due to workload variations. Threads take up die space. Threads are hypejob.
Supposedly MS is working on RT tech and will use threads for that purpose.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Zen CPUs:
“MS insiders claim PS5 uses Zen1 and Scarlet Zen2.”
Cerny confirms 8 core Zen2:
“MS insiders claim Zen3 quad threaded wallet constricting anaconda.”
Last edited:
bhunachicken
Member
I'm willing to bet they reserve one thread exclusively for the RT stuff, giving the other two back to the developers.
PS5 will probably work with some sort of hardware solution, which is what it's Secret Sauce is. Or maybe every PS5 will come with a bottle of HP.
TeamGhobad
Banned
we knew they were going to be 7nm and zen2 is the only 7nm cpu available. also i think MS is willing to take a hit on every xbox sold.
ethomaz
Banned
Well Cerny confirmed Zen2
I believed the speculation should end after that.
But we are here with Zen3 lol
Last edited:
ethomaz
Banned
You need to understand the concept of SMT first.
Think the CPU core is made of a lot of processing units and registers but most of times it only use few processing units to do operations with these registers... so what SMT is about? SMT add more registers to when some processing units are working in determined tasks the others processing units can work with these new registers in parallel.
It is a cost efficient mode to use units to make these iddle processing units do something... so you only need to add new registers to the CPU and so you have a vitual core ready to be used when the CPU Core has iddle processing units.
See? The white squares are non-used units that with SMT are used to do something else (green).
But why disable? Well in gaming the CPU is used to a extent that you if you use these white units in idle to do something they will hold performance of the game thread and even if you only do the game thread on that core the overhead done internally to manage SMT make the core performance drop a bit so some very few fps are lost with SMT active.
For games the best is to disable SMT to get the best performance where the Core is being used 100% for the game without any parallel task to hold it.
Last edited:
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
So what you’re saying is, you don’t see the reactionary leapfrogging these ‘insiders’ keep pulling?
TeamGhobad
Banned
i do. but i also think MS doesn't want to be in the same position it was this gen and they would want to one up the ps5. I'm 99% sure that xbox2 is gonna be more powerful at the same price.
Last edited:
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
You can be more powerful with tweaking clocks without breaking the bank.
ethomaz
Banned
The big issue here is that MS didn't know how Sony chip will be.
Same for Sony.
So both companies target a high spec to be lucky to be the stronger one.
That is exactly why Cerny didn't talk about CUs, clock, etc... because if he does then MS has a target to beat and it will make them probably have a stronger machine.
It is the same reason the actual DevKits are called "Slower mode" because both MS and Sony don't want to give the other enough info in time to make changes in their own project to beat the competition.
Insider are even more blind in that chess play between MS and Sony... Sony last check mate with revealing 8GB GDDR5 break the hopes to MS have the performance lead last gen and MS doesn't want to get in that same situation this generation... Sony is definitively hiding cards like last gen, same for MS but MS has more to lose than Sony in that chess game.
Last edited:
TeamGhobad
Banned
tweaking clocks to a point. there are limits. also u need a huge heatsink/vapor chamber huge fan ect ect also unwritten law consoles cant be more than 350watts or something like that ect ect. MS can't compete on software yet so they will compete on HW and multiplats looking better.
ResilientBanana
Member
I do not think so. I feel like the Xbox will be more expensive if it is better spec'd which is why Lockhart exists. There is a certain limitation with the technology that's about to be presented and I have no reason to believe the PS5 and Anaconda are going to be worlds apart. The only thing that microsoft can do at this point is add hardware to take care of certain tasks like physics, Ray-Tracing, Sound, etc. They could add more GDDR6, they could up clock speeds and provide better cooling. But I really don't think they will have extra threads or skip a generation in CPU or GPU, because the process has to exist in order for them to do that. If AMD has this technology now, why would they sell Zen 2 and not jump straight to Zen 3? Same goes for the GPU. It makes no sense.
It's all about the type of SSD it ends up being also. QLC being the slowest and the most cost efficient. SLC being insanely fast but the most cost prohibitive.
Last edited:
A slide showing the hardware limit of GCN:
- Up to 4 Shader Engines
- 1-16 CUs per Shader Engine
- 1-4 ROPs per Shader Engine
That is a presentation done in 2014 with GCN 3.0 but that is true today with GCN 5.1 (Vega 7nm).
You can't go over that with GCN.
PS4 has 32 ROPS & PS4 Pro has 64 ROPS
TeamGhobad
Banned
and xbox one x has 32rops for some reason.
thelastword
Banned
It will be a miracle if MS comes on an E3 stage and say, XB2: November 9th 2019, Zen 3, Arcturus GPU...."Yes, we got it before the PC guys".....$699.99........Forget about products being beta tested in the future.....The Slogan wil be "Tommorows's technology here today"............Walks off stage....
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Is there any reason someone can think of that lead Sony to using 64 ROPs, when MS went with 32 ROPs on the X1X?
ResilientBanana
Member
Xbox One had 16
Xbox One X had 32
PS4 had 32
PS4 Pro had 64
Most likely because the Xbox One was weak as hell.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Interesting.....what are these extra ROPS providing the PS4 Pro then considering that it's overall weaker than the X1X?
Last edited:
VR & second screen
Last edited:
ethomaz
Banned
Sorry my bad... RBE not ROPS... Render Backends.
Each RBE has 4 ROPs... 16 RBE = 64 ROPs is the limit.
Edit - A picture of a fully GCN.
4 Shader Engines
64 CUs
16 RBEs, 64 ROPs
8 ACEs
Last edited:
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
ANIMAL1975
Member
I hope there is a God and that he is listening to you thelastword!
SonGoku
Member
I read estimations of close to 400mm2 APU die: 64CUs (140mm2), 8 zen cores(75mm2) and all the other jazz that takes up 50% of the die
ethomaz
Banned
I have a feeling they will try to be around 350mm2.
SonGoku
Member
I hope they aim for at least 380mm2, $350 seems kinda low given the circumstances
Although 350mm2 wouldn't surprise me for $400 system
SonGoku
Member
Chiplet designs are supposedly going to do just that
Wasnt there a grass scene in Crysis 3 that benefited from hyper threading?
Slings and Arrows
Banned
Which of these combinations/set-ups work best for VR?
Which is the most efficient way of computing VR?
When we know that, we will have a good idea of what the specs are.
Which is the most efficient way of computing VR?
When we know that, we will have a good idea of what the specs are.
SonGoku
Member
For VR all you need is shitloads of GPU processing headroom.
TLZ
Banned
Man that OG Xbone was weak as. I wouldn't have minded that if sold cheaper, but add insult to injury and sell it for a $100 more, because of forced accessory nobody cared about? So, so stupid. I hope they never ever go back to that stupidity ever again.
The Xbox One fat for a machine sold for $500 it was too weak.
Slings and Arrows
Banned
Could the PS5 be heavy on the GPU and light on the CPU or heavy on both?
SonGoku
Member
I think the CPU will be pretty beefy zen2 at 3.2ghz is a giant leap
I hope we get 12+tf GPU, that way its balanced
A midgen refresh could drastically improve vr perfomance if that was the goal, it would be the 4k of next gen.
Last edited:
- Status