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[nowhat]

my Technical Expertise is much higher as of this poor guy...

Your English skills are on par though.

 

[Farrell55]

What's interesting both PS4P and Xbox X are based on polaris architecture but xbox x GPU was clearly more capable thanks to MS customization. PS4P has 4.2TF yet mamy games on XBOX X render 2x as many pixels with just 1.8TF more. In games like wolfenstein 2 even on RX 580 you cant match xbox x results because even at dynamic and MINIMUM settings you get 45-55 fps, while xbox x runs the same game at 55-60 fps at even higher settings. If MS will customize Xbox Scarlett GPU in similar way, then their GPU will be clearly faster than PS5 even when both consoles will use the same 12TF GPU. Also CPU performance on xbox scarlett should be better if MS will use the same DX12 tech as it was on Xbox X (according to MS their DX12 tech was able to reduce draw calls drastically and as a results of that xbox x CPU was up to 50% faster). Maybe PS5 will have faster SDD, but I really think from pure CPU and GPU power perspective MS will customize their console with better results.

As you say its clevere optimisation and tweaks from Microsoft engineers, also dont forget 384 bit bus... over 320gb/s bandwith its on a whole other level

 

[ResilientBanana]

Playstation gpu “will support” raytracing , xbox next has “hardware accelerated raytracing.”

You could read that as xbox gpu having dedicated hardware and sony gpu using shaders ... but not really the other ware around sorry.

Most likely they both have the same thing.

Wouldn't having Hardware based Ray-Tracing reduce the amount of Tflops necessary to create stunning visuals?

 

[Munki]

Wouldn't having Hardware based Ray-Tracing reduce the amount of Tflops necessary to create stunning visuals?

I was thinking the same thing (I know jack shit). Kinda lines up with the rumours that the PS5 has more TFs, but the Nextbox performing better in the real world, no?

 

[Munki]

Double post, sorry

 

[llien]

Wouldn't having Hardware based Ray-Tracing reduce the amount of Tflops necessary to create stunning visuals?

I think in general the answer is "no".
RT hardly does bring visuals we didn't have.
E.g. GoW on PS4, GPU weaker than 7870, stunning visuals with reflections and what not.

it's the effort to achieve that that will be reduced.

 

[ResilientBanana]

I think in general the answer is "no".
RT hardly does bring visuals we didn't have.
E.g. GoW on PS4, GPU weaker than 7870, stunning visuals with reflections and what not.

it's the effort to achieve that that will be reduced.

That doesn't seem right, have you seen real time Global Illumination in action? Ray-traced Reflections aside, it's a game changer and makes everything come to life. The pre-baked stuff doesn't touch the beauty of the real-time stuff.

 

[Aceofspades]

As you say its clevere optimisation and tweaks from Microsoft engineers, also dont forget 384 bit bus... over 320gb/s bandwith its on a whole other level

Sony engineers had put a 2560 bit bus on PS2. Now that's some next level shit

 

[Gamernyc78]

Sony engineers had put a 2560 bit bus on PS2. Now that's some next level shit

These circle jerkers are funny asf thy really think the x was more powerful bcus of clever engineering and not because it's consistent with a console coming a year later at a higher price. I mean I don't knock Micros ppl but Sony definitely has some of the best talent in the industry but nah It's magic Wait till Cerny abd Sony's top engineers come through breaking walls down.

 

[llien]

That doesn't seem right, have you seen real time Global Illumination in action? Ray-traced Reflections aside, it's a game changer and makes everything come to life. The pre-baked stuff doesn't touch the beauty of the real-time stuff.

Mm, not sure what you are referring to.

I've found GoW's stuff pretty convincing (HDR version at least).

 

[quest]

That doesn't seem right, have you seen real time Global Illumination in action? Ray-traced Reflections aside, it's a game changer and makes everything come to life. The pre-baked stuff doesn't touch the beauty of the real-time stuff.

Don't get your Hope's up. If cyberpunk needs titan level RT on PC side the technology is years off. The next gen consoles I doubt will even do 50% of the lowest end RTX card RT wise. Get excited for the extra CPU power and SSD ram drive to reduce load times. Temper your expectations on the RT side.

 

[Farrell55]

mean I don't knock Micros ppl but Sony definitely has some of the best talent in the industry

Clearly signs of a fanboy

 

[pawel86ck]

Wouldn't having Hardware based Ray-Tracing reduce the amount of Tflops necessary to create stunning visuals?

Here it's mentioned (at 11m50s) in certain situations RT shadows are less expensive than traditional methods.

I think new games can fake RT with very good results, but even then RT make a difference:


Interestion presentaion that shows RT on and off comparison in UE4. Scene at 34m30s looks almost like real life.



And the most impressive UE4 RT demos.

 

[Gamernyc78]

Clearly signs of a fanboy

Of course it is MisterXMedia I have to balance out the garbage tht comes out of some ppls mouths. And yes "Sony having some of the best talent in the industry" is a false narrative and not true at all /s

Shareplay (one of best features last Gen, innovative and micro copied recently with a watered down version on mixer no where close to it)
PSVR (ppl thought a good solution couldn't be done on consoles but well you know Sony did great and currently is the only true VR console solution
Remote Play (advanced and innovated in remote play now others use it)
Og PS4 (most powerful console at launch and cheaper)
Premium Vita (it was ahead of its time but failed due to proprietary cards and other factors) no one can dispute the sexiness abd power of this handheld at the time.
Some of the best Studios In the world that develop and get every ounce of power out of consoles. Naughty Dog, Sony Santa Monica, Guerilla, Sucker Punch setting the graphics bar last two gens, high average metas, multiple awards and gotys. There more but you get the point.

Yeah thy definitely don't have some of the best talent in the in industry. What's tht green planet you live on called?

Again never said or insinuated Microsoft doesn't have great talent. Many of these ppl have worked for both companies. See the difference? I don't try to shit on another company to make my preferred one look better or downplay rumors of power out of insecurity. I think both consoles will be comparable.

 

[ResilientBanana]

Mm, not sure what you are referring to.

I've found GoW's stuff pretty convincing (HDR version at least).

HDR is not Global Illumination, please see below:

Here it's mentioned (at 11m50s) in certain situations RT shadows are less expensive than traditional methods.

I think new games can fake RT with very good results, but even then RT make a difference:


Interestion presentaion that shows how big difference RT can make in UE4. Scene at 34m30s looks almost like real life.



And the most impressive UE4 RT demos.

 

[Farrell55]

Of course it is MisterXMedia I have to balance out the garbage tht comes out of some ppls mouths. And yes "Sony having some of the best talent in the industry" is a false narrative and not true at all /s

Shareplay (one of best features last Gen, innovative and micro copied recently with a watered down version on mixer no where close to it)
PSVR (ppl thought a good solution couldn't be done on consoles but well you know Sony did great and currently is the only true VR console solution
Remote Play (advanced and innovated in remote play now others use it)
Og PS4 (most powerful console at launch and cheaper)
Premium Vita (it was ahead of its time but failed due to proprietary cards and other factors) no one can dispute the sexiness abd power of this handheld at the time.
Some of the best Studios In the world that develop and get every ounce of power out of consoles. Naughty Dog, Sony Santa Monica, Guerilla, Sucker Punch setting the graphics bar last two gens, high average metas, multiple awards and gotys. There more but you get the point.

Yeah thy definitely don't have some of the best talent in the in industry. What's tht green planet you live on called?

Again never said or insinuated Microsoft doesn't have great talent. Many of these ppl have worked for both companies. See the difference? I don't try to shit on another company to make my preferred one look better or downplay rumors of power out of insecurity. I think both consoles will be comparable.

Wow

Thanks God im a VideoGameFan
And Not a Fanboy at all
I Love sony nintendo and Microsoft

But some people here are blinded

 

[llien]

HDR is not Global Illumination, please see below:

Of course it's not, I never said it was, just mentioned it because it does boost picture's "wowness".

I noted nothing in those vids, bar the room part which wasn't clear what it was, full scene RT perhaps, is something we haven't seen in rasterization only games. I chuckled on "sometimes RT shadows could be cheaper". That's exactly my point.

RT can make effects cheaper to develop.

 

[ResilientBanana]

Of course it's not, I never said it was, just mentioned it because it does boost picture's "wowness".

I noted nothing in those vids, bar the room part which wasn't clear what it was, full scene RT perhaps, is something we haven't seen in rasterization only games. I chuckled on "sometimes RT shadows could be cheaper". That's exactly my point.

RT can make effects cheaper to develop.

Right, but they also look better than the cheap workarounds of current-gen games. The only thing HDR does is improve color, while that is something that is impressive, it doesn't to screens that don't have the capability. RT improves everything and will make games truly look next-gen.

 

[chigstoke]

no, who would write such a nonsense

how do you think that this is me?

my Technical Expertise is much higher as of this poor guy...

Nonsense like this for a start, wouldn't surprise me one iota

 

[Farrell55]

Nonsense like this for a start, wouldn't surprise me one iota

This misterX clearly lost his mind

 

[demigod]

Clearly signs of a fanboy

MS fans throwing the first fanboy word around as usual. You're still an amateur troll. If I was you I'd have put Yoshida's picture to troll instead of Phil.

 

[Farrell55]

MS fans throwing the first fanboy word around as usual. You're still an amateur troll. If I was you I'd have put Yoshida's picture to troll instead of Phil.

You are soo Lame... i fell into sleep

 

[DanielsM]

I'm having Vietnam flashback from 2013.

 

[ArabianPrynce]

Those are small chips 36-40CU
Consoles will use 56-64CU

Is increasing the cu count more expensive? I am still hesistant about the 499 price tag. I will buy it, but for sony's perspective it could be suicide for them.

 

[Turk1993]

Sony fanboys attacking MS fanboys, MS fanboys attacking Sony fanboys, Amd fanboys attacking Nvidia fanboys and Nvidia fanboys attacking Amd fanboys. And im here just sitting hoping that both consoles get the best possible hardware there is and push some amazing visual that will also help the pc visuals. I will get both systems and upgrade my PC like i did this gen, just enjoy the games instead of enjoying failures of others. Insulting each other for multi billion dollar companys is really not gonna get you anywhere. I really hope that those consoles are exact the same with just different logo's on them, otherwise this place is gonna be a mess in the coming 5 years. Anyway those consoles are really looking good with ray tracing and ssd, its more than i expected.

 

[vpance]

I think the info released at E3 clearly shows the next consoles will be based on these Navi 10 40CU parts.

I always guessed next-gen would be in the 10-12TF GCN/Vega56-Vega64 range and that is exactly where 5700 XT seems to fall performance wise and seems completely inline with die size/power too when you look at the history with PS4 getting a 212mm^2 GPU ~18 months after.

56-64CUs RDNA seems highly unlikely given what die area and power that would likely use. Either console maker is quite welcome to prove me wrong on this.

Power savings from HBM and better cooling with $499 price tag should hopefully allow for that. Cerny did mention PS5 being a premium product, so he's already setting expectations.

 

[ethomaz]

Already posted the new super Pastebin leak?

Next Gen Consoles (Mai 2019):Xbox die size: 392mmPS5 die size: 319mmCloc - Pastebin.com

Pastebin.com is the number one paste tool since 2002. Pastebin is a website where you can store text online for a set period of time.

pastebin.com

I don't believe it but who knows

And MS is back to strong claim.

 

[xool]

Link to the actual Blloomberg interview

www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2019-06-11/xbox-game-studios-matt-booty-on-project-scarlett-xcloud-video

0m56sec "most powerful and immersive" statement

0m30sec "we're not sharing any of that today" - when is the memo going to go round xbox hq to stop fucking saying that - they use it every fucking time in every fucking interview - sick of their canned "pr" responses - I assume Booty gets fucking paid to do xbox pr - maybe he'd like to do a fucking proper job instead of reading from a fucking script .. Well and truly triggered.

 

[Dee Dah Dave]

I doubt any devs even have real silicon right now, so how they would know the exact die area is beyond me. I guess it could say so in provided documentation. though its not really something that they need to know.

 

[Mass Shift]

Already posted the new super Pastebin leak?

Next Gen Consoles (Mai 2019):Xbox die size: 392mmPS5 die size: 319mmCloc - Pastebin.com

Pastebin.com is the number one paste tool since 2002. Pastebin is a website where you can store text online for a set period of time.

pastebin.com

I don't believe it but who knows

And MS is back to strong claim.

He sounds confident. Or he could be bluffing.

Either way, shots fired

 

[ethomaz]

I doubt any devs even have real silicon right now, so how they would know the exact die area is beyond me. I guess it could say so in provided documentation. though its not really something that they need to know.

The devkits has to be using the real silicon even if in a alpha tapeout.

 

[Ovech-King]

Already posted the new super Pastebin leak?

Next Gen Consoles (Mai 2019):Xbox die size: 392mmPS5 die size: 319mmCloc - Pastebin.com

Pastebin.com is the number one paste tool since 2002. Pastebin is a website where you can store text online for a set period of time.

pastebin.com

I don't believe it but who knows

And MS is back to strong claim.

Damn that's insane clock speed, now I'm back on Team 6TF. 2017 will be amazing

 

[demigod]

I don't believe it but who knows

And MS is back to strong claim.

Daddy Phil is not going to like this.

 

[SonGoku]

I think the info released at E3

What info lol?
E3 was itsnothinggifallaround

I always guessed next-gen would be in the 10-12TF GCN/Vega56-Vega64 range and that is exactly where 5700 XT seems to fall performance wise

This is the recurring flawed point, just because its your ideal headcannon doesnt make it true or the most likely either

56-64CUs RDNA seems highly unlikely given what die area and power that would likely use.

72CU APU = 399.1 mm2 (64 enabled)
64CU APU = 385.6 mm2 (56 enabled)

A bigger chip lower clocked (lower voltage) will have better perf/watt than a small chip clocked higher
A 36CUs chip power consumption at 1.8Ghz would be just as high if not more than a 64CU chip at 1600Mhz.

 

[Evilms]

Matt Booty : "I think it will absolutely be the most powerfull immersive console on the market"

It's not a statement, it's just a wish.

and strangely enough windows central forgot the "i think"

Xbox Game Studios' Matt Booty on Project Scarlett, xCloud Game Service

Jun.11 -- Matt Booty, Microsoft's head of Xbox Game Studios, discusses the next-generation console, code-named Project Scarlett, the company’s new xCloud game-streaming strategy, and the involvement of celebrities in games. He speaks with Bloomberg's Ed Ludlow at the E3 conference in Los Angeles.

uk.finance.yahoo.com

 

[demigod]

Matt Booty : "I think it will absolutely be the most powerfull immersive console on the market"

It's not a statement, it's just a wish.

Xbox Game Studios' Matt Booty on Project Scarlett, xCloud Game Service

Jun.11 -- Matt Booty, Microsoft's head of Xbox Game Studios, discusses the next-generation console, code-named Project Scarlett, the company’s new xCloud game-streaming strategy, and the involvement of celebrities in games. He speaks with Bloomberg's Ed Ludlow at the E3 conference in Los Angeles.

uk.finance.yahoo.com

That's totally different than what windowscentral is claiming, asshats.

 

[ResilientBanana]

Already posted the new super Pastebin leak?

Next Gen Consoles (Mai 2019):Xbox die size: 392mmPS5 die size: 319mmCloc - Pastebin.com

Pastebin.com is the number one paste tool since 2002. Pastebin is a website where you can store text online for a set period of time.

pastebin.com

I don't believe it but who knows

And MS is back to strong claim.

Clickbait for sure, that statement is out of context.

 

[SonGoku]

What's interesting both PS4P and Xbox X are based on polaris architecture but xbox x GPU was clearly more capable thanks to MS customization. PS4P has 4.2TF yet mamy games on XBOX X render 2x as many pixels with just 1.8TF more. In games like wolfenstein 2 even on RX 580 you cant match xbox x results because even at dynamic and MINIMUM settings you get 45-55 fps, while xbox x runs the same game at 55-60 fps at even higher settings. If MS will customize Xbox Scarlett GPU in similar way, then their GPU will be clearly faster than PS5 even when both consoles will use the same 12TF GPU.

The reason the X pulled so far ahead is memory bandwit, not some silver gaming bullet only MS posess

Also CPU performance on xbox scarlett should be better if MS will use the same DX12 tech as it was on Xbox X (according to MS their DX12 tech was able to reduce draw calls drastically and as a results of that xbox x CPU was up to 50% faster).

The PS4 low level API was already more efficient with CPU draw calls than dx

Wouldn't having Hardware based Ray-Tracing reduce the amount of Tflops necessary to create stunning visuals?

If anything it would increase it lol
Hybrid RT is a resource hog

 

[Dee Dah Dave]

The devkits has to be using the real silicon even if in a alpha tapeout.

No they don't. They can just be PC's built to approximate specs, with MS / Sony dev tools.

With the Scorpio, MS didn't get test silicon which their 1st party devs could play around with until just before Christmas 2016. So that is like 6 months from now. Beta kits with real hardware I believe went out to 3rd party devs the following spring (~8 months from launch).

 

[SonGoku]

Already posted the new super Pastebin leak?

Next Gen Consoles (Mai 2019):Xbox die size: 392mmPS5 die size: 319mmCloc - Pastebin.com

Pastebin.com is the number one paste tool since 2002. Pastebin is a website where you can store text online for a set period of time.

pastebin.com

I don't believe it but who knows

And MS is back to strong claim.

Its fucking pastebin lol
Its a mix and match of different rumors...

Spoiler

Xbox die size: 392mm reera analysis

PS5 die size: 319mm reddit rumor

Clock speed in current devkits:

Xbox (Dante): 1,1 GHz (not final; Goal is 1,6) Arturos rumor
PS5 (Gonzalo): 1,8 GHz (was 1 GHz; now pretty much final version) Gonzolo rumor...

Another pastebin:

Untitled. - Pastebin.com

Pastebin.com is the number one paste tool since 2002. Pastebin is a website where you can store text online for a set period of time.

pastebin.com

 

[Negotiator]

And MS is back to strong claim.

I also want Scarlett Johansson on my bed. Doesn't mean it's going to happen, eh? Wishes are very different from reality.

Regarding the "immersive" part, how is it going to be immersive in the first place if it doesn't support VR?

Scorpio's VR promise was canned for some reason (lack of interest most likely, since PS4 has only sold 4m VR units with a much larger install base approaching ~100m).

 

[Farrell55]

Already posted the new super Pastebin leak?

Next Gen Consoles (Mai 2019):Xbox die size: 392mmPS5 die size: 319mmCloc - Pastebin.com

Pastebin.com is the number one paste tool since 2002. Pastebin is a website where you can store text online for a set period of time.

pastebin.com

I don't believe it but who knows

And MS is back to strong claim.

Thank you Mr. Booty

 

[SonGoku]

Is increasing the cu count more expensive?

A console with a 380-400 mm2 APU die will certainly be more expensive but not by that much. Also with 6nm on the horizon theres the posibility to quickly reduce costs

For reference:
Launch PS4 roughly 350 mm2
Launch XBONE roughly 360 mm2
The RTX 2060 is 445mm2

 

[ResilientBanana]

If anything it would increase it lol
Hybrid RT is a resource hog

I wasn't talking about Hybrid. I was talking about Hardware. Comparatively software based RT on nVidia's cards run like absolute dog shit. Turing with Tensor cores on the other hand runs rather well.

 

[SonGoku]

I wasn't talking about Hybrid. I was talking about Hardware. Comparatively software based RT on nVidia's cards run like absolute dog shit. Turing with Tensor cores on the other hand runs rather well.

RTX cards do hybrid RT...
We are decades away from full scene RT

 

[ResilientBanana]

RTX cards do hybrid RT...
We are decades away from full scene RT

Fair enough, it still runs better than their cards without the Tensor cores.

 

[SonGoku]

Fair enough, it still runs better than their cards without the Tensor cores.

Of course! orders or magnitude faster but still RTX cards take a huge perfomance penalty with RTX on which is why i said RT means even more TFs are needed

 

[CrustyBritches]

72CU APU = 399.1 mm2 (64 enabled)
64CU APU = 385.6 mm2 (56 enabled)

A bigger chip lower clocked (lower voltage) will have better perf/watt than a small chip clocked lower
A 36CUs chip power consumption at 1.8Ghz would be just as high if not more than a 64CU chip at 1600Mhz.

If you believe this, then why did you turn down my original bet, "2019 Navi 10 GPUs will beat PS5".

64CU @ 1600MHz = 13.1TF
56CU @ 1600MHz = 11.5TF

Yet you do not have the confidence to take my Navi 10 bet which are 8TF and 9TF GPUs? You did the opposite, actually, you forced me right on the razors edge for prediction and I had to take 1080/2060/Vega 64 against PS5 while you flaunt the idea of RTX 2080 level GPUs???

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

What info lol?
E3 was itsnothinggifallaround

Navi info of course.

This is the recurring flawed point, just because its your ideal headcannon doesnt make it true or the most likely either

72CU APU = 399.1 mm2 (64 enabled)
64CU APU = 385.6 mm2 (56 enabled)

A bigger chip lower clocked (lower voltage) will have better perf/watt than a small chip clocked lower
A 36CUs chip power consumption at 1.8Ghz would be just as high if not more than a 64CU chip at 1600Mhz.

I just don't think you are being realistic. 5700 XT is already a 225W TBP GPU so it is unrealistic to expect a 56-64CU console APU. Even one lower clocked (a bigger chip is more expensive to make).

Besides, I much prefer to be conservative and end up with better than expected.

Bottom line is I've been expecting Vega 56-Vega 64 (~1080 if you like) performance all along and that is essentially what Navi 10 provides. Combine with a 8c Zen 2, 16GB RAM and 448-576GB/s BW in a APU and that's my next-gen system(s). Super SSD is the icing.

 

[ethomaz]

No they don't. They can just be PC's built to approximate specs, with MS / Sony dev tools.

With the Scorpio, MS didn't get test silicon which their 1st party devs could play around with until just before Christmas 2016. So that is like 6 months from now. Beta kits with real hardware I believe went out to 3rd party devs the following spring (~8 months from launch).

There is no more time to PC build devkit anymore.

If you want a next year release you need to have the APU inside the devkits already.