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[Chozofication_]

Xbox > GC > PS2. I was more a GC/DC guy that gen. Soul Calibur(DC) and Wind Waker being games that really blew mind. SCII on GC was beautiful, but it looked even better on Xbox.

Not really it had a 720p mode but ran worse for it. Cube and xbox versions were equal

 

[CrustyBritches]

Not really it had a 720p mode but ran worse for it. Cube and xbox versions were equal

You've been staring at low res GC games too long better get your eyes checked?

 

[Esppiral]

Ps2 was the "fastest" at certain things like fill rate where the idea of passes made sense. Near the end of its life we got some really good looking games. It was not more "powerful" as there was a lot of hardware in the Xbox that PS2 had to do in software or not do at all. Quite a few games can be forced to not only 480p but true 16:9 by simply hex editing editing the iso.

Patching games to display in Widescreen is not something exclusive to the ps2, I've patched games for the PSX, SEGA SATURN, DREAMCAST, GAMECUBE and XBOX (among others) to do so on real hardware at "assemblers", it has nothing to do with power or capabilities of the console.

Some I've done

Virtua Fighter Kids SEGA SATURN

Panzer Dragoon SEGA SATURN.

Turok Xbox

Psychonauts Xbox

Super Runabout Dreamcast.

Shenmue 21:9 AR on real Dreamcast.




Also a lot of people omits the Dreamcast, and while it was the weakest of the bunch, people tend to forget that it belongs to the same generation as the PS2, GC and Xbox, it also had some great texture compression, and Dreamcast games emulated at higher resolutions can look stunning thanks to it.

Most of Dreamcast ports to other consoles of the same generation run at lower res, lower textures or both.

I mean, this is Le Mans 24h for the Dreamcast. (emulator screenshot)

And Metropolis Street Racer

The texture quality is insane

 

[DynamiteCop!]

Not really it had a 720p mode but ran worse for it. Cube and xbox versions were equal

I'm going to have to disagree, I have it and I literally just played it on the back of this post and aside from looking far better at 720p it appears to operate identically.

No slowdowns, no hitching, nothing. The performance seems to be identical to the 480p mode.

 

[MidgarBlowedUp]

There was some crazy stuff on all 3 consoles. I remember playing RE4 on GC at GameStop. That game looked a generation ahead to me. I always thought Ninja Gaiden for Xbox was a bit of a showcase too. Ps2 is not ever really a while game I guess, just specific things the devs would do. Like Melbourne House Transformers draw distance and poly count or Zoe 2s particle effects. It's display output was absolutely not a feature.

It does concern me a bit with the next generation of consoles. I hope, whatever the next "thing" is, whether it be Ray Tracing or whatever, the consoles don't just max out early. Then we get another half gen refresh with relatively small enhancements.

 

[Chozofication_]

I'm going to have to disagree, I have it and I literally just played it on the back of this post and aside from looking far better at 720p it appears to operate identically.

No slowdowns, no hitching, nothing. The performance seems to be identical to the 480p mode.

Hmm well to be fair I played it on 360 via back compat. It had tearing and frame drops.

Also there's a vid on YT saying the latency on Xbox was higher

 

[DynamiteCop!]

Hmm well to be fair I played it on 360 via back compat. It had tearing and frame drops.

Also there's a vid on YT saying the latency on Xbox was higher

I don't know about control latency but on original hardware the performance at 480p/720p appears to be identical.

 

[Chozofication_]

I don't know about control latency but on original hardware the performance at 480p/720p appears to be identical.

That is impressive then. I keep wishing df would do face offs of 6th gen games D dark10x

 

[polybius80]

is PS5 GPU is slightly better than gtx 1080 thats pretty pathetic.

You heard it here first folks ; memory bandwidth doesn't matter. Tell that to the PlayStation 4 Pro lol

www.neogaf.com

Lets continue Game cube vs Xbox discussion here guys because we dont need offtopic discussion in PS5 thread, and it looks like some people really think GC was the most capable 6 gen console... so prepare for yet a other xbox vs GC war... and we can even talk about PS2 here, although I dont know if there are people who believe PS2 hardware was the best.

the original xbox was the mos powerful console there is no contest there, it the most powerful because is far more expensive and included modern tech from nvidia, MS lost money with each xbox, it works as a modern system with vertex and pixel shaders that run on GPU like used today were in GC and PS2 you have to use the cpu and co-processors with more basic GPUs

I disagre with the notion of not including PS2, it wasnt the best, but had many strengths compared to GC like vertex processing(burnout 3 wasnt released on GC because the performance was bad) and the memory array was more flexible compared to the fixed memory cache of GC(wasnt bad but you cannot take much advantage if you need more or less space) there are many multiplatform games that look better in PS2 vs GC even late in generation like GUN(and the opposite is true in other games but it shows its not behind) ang games with very advanced effects like matrix path of neo and hitman blood money that werent released on GC, sure GC have its strengths like the TEV(for mixing textures) and better texture compression(with little texture space) we can see its use in games like rogue squadron for the environmental bump mapping but PS2 had an insane amount of bandwith to compensate using multipass it was more capable in particles than xbox, was more complex and there was a lot of shovelware so you dont see it often but its capable

"Chozofication" suggest GC could do anything like xbox. GC hardware had no shaders, shadows buffers, 50% less RAM and no HDD for caching purposes, and yet some people suggest it could do everything like xbox.


GC was the best... because it had higher memory bandwidth?

speaking in general it cant make the same as xbox it lack a lot of flexibility but maybe there are workaround to some features, PS2 can in theory do the same things xbox do with blending operations(because it was desgined for multipass) as some games show but both consoles wont be able to do as much as xbox because it has a lot of flexibility and brute force but not every game is as complex or require the same thing or maybe xbox power can be used for more quality instead of other effects while in other consoles they can get away with less quality for the same effects, CRT TV hide a lot of tricks used in that generation, and the memory cant be compared 1:1, memory in GC and PS2 are divided for special purposes and its not at the same speed for example 16 MB of the 43 MB of GC are for audio i/o and cache for the disc drive and its very slow for other purposes it has 3 MB(1 for textures and 2 for zbuffer-framebuffer) that are very fast while xbox has 64 MB for everything and its little more than 2 times faster than GC main memory(24 MB) its hard to compare and even in multiplatform games there are ports that cannot use most of the console where it is ported because time or inexperience

 

[pawel86ck]

Hmm well to be fair I played it on 360 via back compat. It had tearing and frame drops.

Also there's a vid on YT saying the latency on Xbox was higher

Xbox emulation on xbox 360 was much slower most of the time, but picture quality was better (MSAAx4 in all xbox games).

 

[Angry_Megalodon]

That was quite probably the best generation of consoles ever because there were 3 amazing systems with GREAT EXCLUSIVES for each of them. GC and XBOX were almost on par from a power standpoint but the PS2 library was just unbeatable.

I still keep my GC, the last "old-school" Nintendo console.

 

[Chozofication_]

Xbox emulation on xbox 360 was much slower most of the time, but picture quality was better (MSAAx4 in all xbox games).

Funny thing is the rest of my games run great on 360, hulk in 720p runs smooth even.

 

[Negotiator]

Xbox emulation on xbox 360 was much slower most of the time, but picture quality was better (MSAAx4 in all xbox games).

That's because clock-for-clock Pentium 3 was faster than Xenon. OoO vs in-order execution plays a huge role, but few people realize it.

Jaguar has it a lot easier when it emulates Xenon because of this, despite the frequency deficit.

 

[Alexios]

Xbox was far superior given the pixel shader featureset of the GPU working wonders in the western PC-like games it popularised for consoles, GC was cool, PS2 was way overhyped, not that much better than Dreamcast in anything and in some important ways worse.

 

[Panajev2001a]

That's because clock-for-clock Pentium 3 was faster than Xenon. OoO vs in-order execution plays a huge role, but few people realize it.

Jaguar has it a lot easier when it emulates Xenon because of this, despite the frequency deficit.

Interesting that a 733 MHz Celeron is having this much of a fighting chance against a 3.2 GHz PowerPC core even if in order (and there are three of them)...

 

[Oemenia]

Not really it had a 720p mode but ran worse for it. Cube and xbox versions were equal

I'll never understand why Nintendo fanboys refuse to believe SCII even existed on other platforms.

 

[Alexios]

Patching games to display in Widescreen is not something exclusive to the ps2, I've patched games for the PSX, SEGA SATURN, DREAMCAST, GAMECUBE and XBOX (among others) to do so on real hardware at "assemblers", it has nothing to do with power or capabilities of the console.

Some I've done

Virtua Fighter Kids SEGA SATURN

Panzer Dragoon SEGA SATURN.

Turok Xbox

Psychonauts Xbox

Super Runabout Dreamcast.

Shenmue 21:9 AR on real Dreamcast.




Also a lot of people omits the Dreamcast, and while it was the weakest of the bunch, people tend to forget that it belongs to the same generation as the PS2, GC and Xbox, it also had some great texture compression, and Dreamcast games emulated at higher resolutions can look stunning thanks to it.

Most of Dreamcast ports to other consoles of the same generation run at lower res, lower textures or both.

I mean, this is Le Mans 24h for the Dreamcast. (emulator screenshot)

And Metropolis Street Racer

The texture quality is insane

Some games like Panzer Dragoon Zwei on Saturn had an official widescreen mode out of the box even (though 2D elements, FMV etc are stretched as in the hacks).


Metropolis Street Racer always looked crazy good on Dreamcast, only the aliasing brought the presentation down but that was a given with that era's resolutions.

 

[Negotiator]

Interesting that a 733 MHz Celeron is having this much of a fighting chance against a 3.2 GHz PowerPC core even if in order (and there are three of them)...

Many game devs have criticized lack of OoO:

Speculatively speaking

This post is part of a series – go here for the index. Welcome back! Today, it’s time to take a closer look at the triangle binning code, which we’ve only seen mentioned briefly s…

fgiesen.wordpress.com

Burn The House Down

Jeez, if there was one thing that could make up for missing Will Wright's talk earlier, it's sitting at his feet while this session was delivered! So my mood is slightly improved, although we have to wait between 2-6 weeks...

crystaltips.typepad.com

"Gameplay code will get slower and harder to write on the next generation of consoles. Modern CPUs use out-of-order execution, which is there to make crappy code run fast. This was really good for the industry when it happened, although it annoyed many assembly language wizards in Sweden. Xenon and Cell are both in-order chips. What does this mean? It’s cheaper for them to do this. They can drop a lot of cores. One out-of-order core is about four times [did I catch that right? Alice] the size of an in-order core. What does this do to our code? It’s great for grinding on floating point, but for anything else it totally sucks. Rumours from people actually working on these chips – straight-line runs 1/3 to 1/10th the performance at the same clock speed. This sucks."

I'm strictly talking about ST performance, not MT or SIMD performance.

 

[polybius80]

Dude it is fact the GC outperforms the Xbox on polycount, the GC cpu is far superior to the Intel Celeron in Xbox. Celeron were cheap ass cpu's very similar to an i3 today when i9's are available.
Games like Rogue Leader, F-Zero GX, MP2 and RE4 are clearly running more complex geometry than Riddick or Halo.
The fact is that the GC cpu was so efficient it was used in Wii, the Wiiu cpu is literally 3 GC CPUs duck taped together.
Keep arguing kid ill bring up even more forum topics from 2003 and 2004 to destroy you with the facts.
Of that gen Rogue Leader was the pinnacle in how many polys were being pushed in real time, hundreds of ships on screen at one time...14-20 million polys a second.

no

" GC outperforms the Xbox on polycount, the GC cpu is far superior to the Intel Celeron in Xbox. Celeron were cheap ass cpu's very similar to an i3 today when i9's are available."

GC cpu is busy most of the time calculating vertex position while Xbox uses its vertex shader and PS2 its VU1, xbox and ps2 can use their CPU for other tasks that gekko have to perform on top of vertex operations as a result some games lack vertex intese effects for example baldurs gate dark alliance lack detail in the water physics while PS2 and Xbox version have a more complex version on top of better light and textures



"Games like Rogue Leader, F-Zero GX, MP2 and RE4 are clearly running more complex geometry than Riddick or Halo."

if you try to use the same kind of effects like riddick or halo the performance in GC is going to suffer and its very interesting comparision a racing game and a most flying space shooter game, there are not many vertex operation there, halo use simple 3d models because it use a high variety of them in a very complex environment but uses a very strong pixel shader with normal maps, rogue squadron use high polygon space ship models but there is not much variety at the same time on scene and they are a buch of polygons floating around not moving their vertices like humanoid characters do, RE4 is a game built around small scenes and while the geometry is relatively complex(in main characters) it not better than other characters in other games the first onimusha in ps2 also uses 10k triangles characters and nobody claim is better than RE4 or Halo

"The fact is that the GC cpu was so efficient it was used in Wii, the Wiiu cpu is literally 3 GC CPUs duck taped together."

the GC cpu is from IBM, there are many iterations gekko is one, the Wii uses an iteration and that allows for compatibility with GC and power pc architecture was used also in PS3 and Xobx 360, its an efficient CPU but you are taking it out of context, modern consoles like ps4 and xbox one use x86 cpu so we can apply the same logic to OG Xbox cpu and claim is better

"Of that gen Rogue Leader was the pinnacle in how many polys were being pushed in real time, hundreds of ships on screen at one time...14-20 million polys a second."


even used more polygons but also F1 for PS2 used as much and also ran at higher resolution than rogue squadron and without slowdowns

rogue squadron 2 is a game that move around lot of triangles but doesnt make many vertex operations that is why you dont see as much polygons in other games like zelda TP that moves 8 millions, xbox can push more polygons and make more transformations and shader effects

 

[pawel86ck]

the original xbox was the mos powerful console there is no contest there, it the most powerful because is far more expensive and included modern tech from nvidia, MS lost money with each xbox, it works as a modern system with vertex and pixel shaders that run on GPU like used today were in GC and PS2 you have to use the cpu and co-processors with more basic GPUs

I disagre with the notion of not including PS2, it wasnt the best, but had many strengths compared to GC like vertex processing(burnout 3 wasnt released on GC because the performance was bad) and the memory array was more flexible compared to the fixed memory cache of GC(wasnt bad but you cannot take much advantage if you need more or less space) there are many multiplatform games that look better in PS2 vs GC even late in generation like GUN(and the opposite is true in other games but it shows its not behind) ang games with very advanced effects like matrix path of neo and hitman blood money that werent released on GC, sure GC have its strengths like the TEV(for mixing textures) and better texture compression(with little texture space) we can see its use in games like rogue squadron for the environmental bump mapping but PS2 had an insane amount of bandwith to compensate using multipass

PS2 had good looking games too, although developers were using some clever tricks in order to hide hardware weaknesses. In 2001 I had only PC platform and when I saw Grant Turismo 3 for the first time I was stunned. I couldnt believe games can look so photorealistic (GT3 looked especially stunning during replays) and I bought PS2 just to play GT3. I was still impressed even many year later but when I bought xbox in 2004 then I started seeing why Polyphony achieved so great results on PS2. Everything was baked, reflections were fake and car windows were tinted because car models had no interiors

And here's xbox game PGR2, unlike Gran Turismo cars were modeled fully (with interiors), had real time shadows, realistic and high quality reflections

But still PG2 didnt looked so photorealistic to me as GT3 and GT4, even with more detailed graphics. IMO polygons and effects arnt everything, there's also aesthetic involved and Polyphony has mastered it like no other developer.

Guys, if you want please shere screenshots here from the best looking 6 gen console games (the best looking according to you guys)

 

[Cpt Conifer]

Also a lot of people omits the Dreamcast, and while it was the weakest of the bunch, people tend to forget that it belongs to the same generation as the PS2, GC and Xbox, it also had some great texture compression, and Dreamcast games emulated at higher resolutions can look stunning thanks to it.

I think the majority shake their head at me for this, but as far as I'm concerned, it was Xbox > DC > GC > PS2. Image quality means that much to me. I don't know if things would have been different if I could have used different cables from the ones provided out of the box for all of these consoles. I was just a kid in high school at the time so there was only so much I could do financially.

I was squarely in that "muddy, washed out" camp going from DC to PS2, even if the technicians preach about fillrate, texture streaming, MIPS and whatever else. Even 2d elements, like RPG menus, textboxes, etc felt wrong to me, that's how fucked up the weird, shimmery PS2 image quality was (at least on the standard cables, but I even watch the shit on Youtube now and can't stand it, so I'm thinking it was just designed by engineers with different priorities). Like I recently tried to watch a longplay of Wild Arms 3, and I think the guy is playing it on authentic hardware but with the highest quality whatever-cables, and I still cannot watch it for more than 15 minutes.

 

[pawel86ck]

That's because clock-for-clock Pentium 3 was faster than Xenon. OoO vs in-order execution plays a huge role, but few people realize it.

Jaguar has it a lot easier when it emulates Xenon because of this, despite the frequency deficit.

I always wondered why xbox 360 was struggeling with xbox emulation despite much higher clocks but your explanation makes sense. Some xbox games run fine on xbox 360 (for example ninja gaiden) but most of the time performance was clearly worse compared to xbox OG hardware (I have played max payne 1, fable, GTA 3/VC, halo 1, splinter cell, RTCW games and many other games)

 

[SlashBringingHasher]

ps2 from what i know had the weakest hardware but it had a great library and games were optimized well. game cube opting for small dvds kind of destroyed the whole point of better specs.

og xbox had great library too. but ps2 is too legendary. ps2>xbox>gc library wise.

 

[oldergamer]

GC was a good syatem for the price point but no, it couldnt do what xbox could handle as far as graphics goes. Xbox was way ahead of GC capabilities.

 

[EverydayBeast]

Hardware from generation 6 did all their due diligence.

 

[JordanN]

Hardware from generation 6 did all their due diligence.

Edit: In terms of raw specs true, but Nintendo using the 1.5GB mini discs and the Gamecube controller lacking extra shoulder buttons was still being greedy/short sighted.

 

[MidgarBlowedUp]

Patching games to display in Widescreen is not something exclusive to the ps2, I've patched games for the PSX, SEGA SATURN, DREAMCAST, GAMECUBE and XBOX (among others) to do so on real hardware at "assemblers", it has nothing to do with power or capabilities of the console.

Actually, if the game uses a LOD system where it doesn't draw what is offscreen, as later ps2 games did, then yes it has everything to do with the hardware. You are adding quite a bit of multipass rendering on a console like the ps2.
But, to your point, I really don't know if any of the patched games on ps2 used a lod in that way.

And yes those games you posted look great.

 

[Ceadeus]

I do still believe it was the best generation.

The gap between 5th and 6th gen has to be the biggest of them all. I mean,

The graphical gap is monstrous all our mind were blown away. 480p were introduced. DVD player, internet browser and online multiplayer. Bunch of totally new and cool gadget like keyboard, fishing pole or game boy player... the list goes one.

Also introduced mmo to console. Disk drive. Wireless controller.

I'm saying, this gen was pure gold and the very best in the gaming history. It was bursting with novelty and inspiration.

 

[V4skunk]

Rogue Leader is a totally different type of game (a space shooter with 2D backgrounds, or small levels with one simple scenery) and you cant compare it to halo games, and not to mention splinter cell games.


If you really want to look at facts, so here you have detailed specification analysis

GameCube vs. Xbox: Part Deux - Page 13 of 18 - ExtremeTech

For two boxes that do essentially the same thing, Xbox and Game Cube could hardly be more different internally. Take our tour, and understand why.

www.extremetech.com

20-30 million triangles/sec on Game Cube vs 116.5 million triangles/sec on xbox


But can you prove it? For now you have only linked some thread from 2002,

Claimed performance figures : Gamecube vs Xbox

Developers of Rogue Leader on the GC estimate RL pushes 15 million polygons per second with 8 hardware lights and 5-8 textures. Tecmo developers of Dead or Alive 3, considered the most visual impressive game on the xbox claim it pushes a maximum of 8 million per second.quote:but we estimate most...

arstechnica.com

It's mentioned here Dead Or Alive 3 pushes 5-8 million polygons, so your conclusion is xbox cant render more polygons LOL . But what about games after 2002? You want to tell us the best looking games on xbox launched before 2002 and no xbox game used more polygons later on?

And because you keep mentioning RE4 just tell me what's complex in this particular game? Character models? Detailed scenery? Polygon wise RE4 looks like a normal xbox game just without shadows buffers (no dynamic shadows) and without shaders.

Metroid Prime 2, the same thing, flat textures, flat lighting, and no dynamic shadows

Rogue Squadron however used bump mapping, self shadows, and even cube maps on water surface but like I have said before, it wasnt complex game, and besides wikipedia mention xbox port was already 50% completed and would look better than Game Cube version. So if that was the best looking GC game, and Xbox version would look even better, than it's only because Xbox hardware was more capable.

I have no idea how to count polygons in games, but the amount of details (trees, vegetation, various objects, shadows, water with amazing real time reflections) I can see in far cry is really something else compared to Game Cube games. I dont remember even single game on GC that would render so huge scenery with similar amount of trees, shadows and shader effects.

You are talking rubbish. The fact is that RE4, Rogue Leader(60fps), MP2(60fps} and F-Zero(60fps) all destroyed Xbox games in poly count. I posted two over 15 year old threads with links to developers quotes of the time stating real world performance of both consoles! With Rogue Squadron a launch GC game setting a bench mark that Xbox never reached in real world.
GC was similar in a way to ps3 in that exclusives were what pushed technical boundaries.

I was going to say there are Nintendo fanboys rewriting history but seems they already have in this thread.
I mean like I thought you guys were delusional when you started claiming Resident Evil 4 was better than Doom 3 and all.

But what next, Gamecube had better third-party support than the XBOX?

Reading comprehension for the win.
My whole argument here is based around the fact that GC was superior in pushing polygons.

 

[MidgarBlowedUp]

I feel so bad for those game engine developers back then, especially working with ps2 and dream cast. Can you imagine coding all that shit? It's just so far beyond my comprehension. Damn heroes in my book.

 

[Stuart360]

You are talking rubbish. The fact is that RE4, Rogue Leader(60fps), MP2(60fps} and F-Zero(60fps) all destroyed Xbox games in poly count. I posted two over 15 year old threads with links to developers quotes of the time stating real world performance of both consoles! With Rogue Squadron a launch GC game setting a bench mark that Xbox never reached in real world.
GC was similar in a way to ps3 in that exclusives were what pushed technical boundaries.

Reading comprehension for the win.
My whole argument here is based around the fact that GC was superior in pushing polygons.

The funny thing is that Factor 5 were going to release a 'Rogue Leader' trilogy on Xbox, complete with upgraded visuals and a higher resolution, but structuring by LucasArts caused the game to be canned (and Xbox being dropped after 4 years possibly).
If you dont believe me, Google it.

EDIT.
Also just to put an end to your babbling -

Factor 5 president details canceled Star Wars projects

Factor 5 earned plenty of goodwill from Star Wars fans with its Rogue Leader series across the Nintendo 64 and GameCube, but the studio planned to do more with the universe beyond those games. During an episode of IGN's Nintendo Voice Chat, former Factor 5 president Julian Eggebrecht detailed...

www.engadget.com

"When Factor 5's exclusivity window with Sony ended in 2007, the studio's gaze was set on the Wii. They reworked the Rogue Squadron trilogy project originally built for Xbox and added optional play styles (you could steer an X-Wing with the Wii wheel and manage its pedals with the Balance Board, for example). Beyond piloting ships, Factor 5's "Rogue Leaders" used the Wii Motion Plus for 1:1 lightsaber battles between 20 characters, complete with force powers. Rogue Leaders essentially ran on Lair's graphics engine at 60 frames-per-second and featured ducking and dodging beyond what's found in Wii Sports Resort. "

Footage of the cancelled Xbox......er sorry Wii version -



Looks just as good, if not better than the Gamecube versions. So just stop with the nonsense.

 

[polybius80]

PS2 had good looking games too, although developers were using some clever tricks in order to hide hardware weaknesses. In 2001 I had only PC platform and when I saw Grant Turismo 3 for the first time I was stunned. I couldnt believe games can look so photorealistic (GT3 looked especially stunning during replays) and I bought PS2 just to play GT3. I was still impressed even many year later but when I bought xbox in 2004 then I started seeing why Polyphony achieved so great results on PS2. Everything was baked, reflections were fake and car windows were tinted because car models had no interiors

everything in video games is about using clever tricks!

even PGR use shadow maps, you usually mix the two, you bake the light of the scene and use real time for characters or in this case cars, you can change the gamma in a model to simulate passing under a shadow, there is an LOD(level of detail) system and you change assets to save performance that allows you to use more complex stuff

its real time not a movie you have to use tricks, you can exploit the hardware if you have time, you can twist the game to use the hardware strength and avoid weakness, take any good looking game famous for pushing the hardware were it run and you will see clever tricks everywhere and read stories about a crazy method to use the hardware in very interesting ways using chips that werent supposed to do work that way, PS2 is one of my favorite systems in this regard because it was very weird but with a clear aim, the whole system was a GPU everything is part of a pipeline and had all kind of extra procesors for specific tasks obviously it wasn't easy, VU0 was rarely used for example, the idea of using multi pass is awesome and very clever approach considering the system was developed in a time were there wasnt a standard way of doing graphics, you put a lot of work into developers but in the right hands it worked, PS2 was declared a weak system almost from the beginning and every time a game looked better on other system it was repeated and there are even people that claim dreamcast was more powerful, yet it was able to run more and more complex games year after year, people dont give enough credit to games like transformer armada, matrix path of neo and hitman blood money, matrix and hitman used normal maps wich was said was imposible

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/b484/7c749d541c46bffd330ea1703a6ea0120a74.pdf

compare that to enter the matrix or hitman 3 and its like another generation yet its in the same system

 

[Chozofication_]

In terms of raw specs true, but Nintendo using the 1.8GB mini discs and the Gamecube controller lacking extra shoulder buttons was still being greedy/short sighted.

1.5gb actually.

This sentiment is always perpetuated but in reality the difference between a cube disc and a full dvd is smaller than the difference between a 360 DVD (6.8gb until about 2011, where devs got 7.8) and a ps3 blu ray disc.

Treyarch actually said 360s dvd limited texture resolution in black ops 1. I don't actually think GameCube discs limited textures much, if at all but some lower quality audio here or there or a missing fmv, in multiplats.

 

[Chozofication_]

The funny thing is that Factor 5 were going to release a 'Rogue Leader' trilogy on Xbox, complete with upgraded visuals and a higher resolution, but structuring by LucasArts caused the game to be canned (and Xbox being dropped after 4 years possibly).
If you dont believe me, Google it.

EDIT.
Also just to put an end to your babbling -

Factor 5 president details canceled Star Wars projects

Factor 5 earned plenty of goodwill from Star Wars fans with its Rogue Leader series across the Nintendo 64 and GameCube, but the studio planned to do more with the universe beyond those games. During an episode of IGN's Nintendo Voice Chat, former Factor 5 president Julian Eggebrecht detailed...

www.engadget.com

"When Factor 5's exclusivity window with Sony ended in 2007, the studio's gaze was set on the Wii. They reworked the Rogue Squadron trilogy project originally built for Xbox and added optional play styles (you could steer an X-Wing with the Wii wheel and manage its pedals with the Balance Board, for example). Beyond piloting ships, Factor 5's "Rogue Leaders" used the Wii Motion Plus for 1:1 lightsaber battles between 20 characters, complete with force powers. Rogue Leaders essentially ran on Lair's graphics engine at 60 frames-per-second and featured ducking and dodging beyond what's found in Wii Sports Resort. "

Footage of the cancelled Xbox......er sorry Wii version -



Looks just as good, if not better than the Gamecube versions. So just stop with the nonsense.

Seems they said they were reworking it for Xbox, not using the word improved. And you think posting Wii footage helps your argument?

 

[Stuart360]

Seems they said they were reworking it for Xbox, not using the word improved. And you think posting Wii footage helps your argument?

Google it, at the time they said it would have upgraded visuals and a higher resolution on Xbox, hense the 'reworked'. As for the Wii footage, i posted it because of this -
'
the studio's gaze was set on the Wii. They reworked the Rogue Squadron trilogy project originally built for Xbox '

With the Wii basically being a slightly upgraded Gamecube, they wouldnt use the Xbox version if it was worse would they.

 

[Chairman Tickles]

Can we ban photo mode stills from racers as valid comparison screens? k thnx bai

Otherwise a very entertaining thread to read.

Those are just sprites. Cool use of speed tree techniques before it became popularized by oblivion I guess. Nothing very impressive there. Just hundreds of low quality sprites.

 

[Vorg]

You are talking rubbish. The fact is that RE4, Rogue Leader(60fps), MP2(60fps} and F-Zero(60fps) all destroyed Xbox games in poly count. I posted two over 15 year old threads with links to developers quotes of the time stating real world performance of both consoles! With Rogue Squadron a launch GC game setting a bench mark that Xbox never reached in real world.
GC was similar in a way to ps3 in that exclusives were what pushed technical boundaries.

You're conveniently forgetting about Ninja Gaiden (60fps), Panzer Dragoon Orta (60fps), Jet Set Radio Future (60fps), Dead or Alive 3 or Ultimate (60 fps), Rallisport Challenge 2(60fps), Outrun 2(60fps)... Any of those games can easily compete with anything on the gamecube, and most of them I doubt would even be possible to port, let alone run at 60 fps. The gamecube games you mentioned, on the other hand would probably run on xbox at 60 in higher resolutions.

 

[Chozofication_]

Google it, at the time they said it would have upgraded visuals and a higher resolution on Xbox, hense the 'reworked'. As for the Wii footage, i posted it because of this -
'
the studio's gaze was set on the Wii. They reworked the Rogue Squadron trilogy project originally built for Xbox '

With the Wii basically being a slightly upgraded Gamecube, they wouldnt use the Xbox version if it was worse would they.

Pics or it didn't happen sunshine. There's no finished product

 

[Stuart360]

Pics or it didn't happen sunshine. There's no finished product

Do you think i'm a former Factor Five dev or something? . I LOVED the Rogue Leader games on Gamecube, and it goes without question that i was hyped and would of double dipped for the Xbox version. Alas it didnt happen.

 

[Chozofication_]

Do you think i'm a former Factor Five dev or something? . I LOVED the Rogue Leader games on Gamecube, and it goes without question that i was hyped and would of double dipped for the Xbox version. Alas it didnt happen.

So lets not use it as evidence.

 

[Stuart360]

So lets not use it as evidence.

Well the edvidence would be that they used the Xbox version for the Wii, and not the Gamecube versions. You wouldnt exactly use the Xbox version if it was worse than the Gamecube versions would you, especially when the Wii was a suped up Gamecube.

 

[Ryllix_]

The original Xbox was hands down the most powerful of the three with the best looking games. It was capable of pc ports of half life 2 and Doom 3. Those and riddick destroy anything on ps2 or gamecube. Gamecube was able to pull off some very impressive games. PS2 was a pretty sizable step behind both.

 

[Chozofication_]

You're conveniently forgetting about Ninja Gaiden (60fps), Panzer Dragoon Orta (60fps), Jet Set Radio Future (60fps), Dead or Alive 3 or Ultimate (60 fps), Rallisport Challenge 2(60fps), Outrun 2(60fps)... Any of those games can easily compete with anything on the gamecube, and most of them I doubt would even be possible to port, let alone run at 60 fps. The gamecube games you mentioned, on the other hand would probably run on xbox at 60 in higher resolutions.

Beautiful games (although jetset doesn't really push technical boundaries much)

But none of those games really use xboxs advanced shaders much. Which is half my point ; games like Riddick and halo 2 were doing too much for their own good.

I honestly only think that rallisport challenge 2 wouldn't be doable on cube, since it doesn't tax the bandwidth much. Xbox really had great looking racers.

Well the edvidence would be that they used the Xbox version for the Wii, and not the Gamecube versions. You wouldnt exactly use the Xbox version if it was worse than the Gamecube versions would you, especially when the Wii was a suped up Gamecube.

We have absolutely no idea how much the Wii footage resembled the Xbox build, if they even had it running on x.

 

[Stuart360]

We have absolutely no idea how much the Wii footage resembled the Xbox build, if they even had it running on x.

But the point is that they used the Xbox version as the base for the Wii, why?. If you read the article, they say they had basicaly no money and were having to fund everything themselves. It would of been much easier and cheaper porting the Gamecube code to Wii (souped up Gamecube) than it would be to port Xbox code to Wii, which is a totally different architecture. The only reason doing this would make any logical sense would be if the Xbox version was better than the Gamecube versions. There is literally no other reason it would make sense to use Xbox code over Gamecube.

 

[Chozofication_]

But the point is that they used the Xbox version as the base for the Wii, why?. If you read the article, they say they had basicaly no money and were having to fund everything themselves. It would of been much easier and cheaper porting the Gamecube code to Wii (souped up Gamecube) than it would be to port Xbox code to Wii, which is a totally different architecture. The only reason doing this would make any logical sense would be if the Xbox version was better than the Gamecube versions. There is literally no other reason it would make sense to use Xbox code over Gamecube.

Honestly man it's pure speculation.

Maybe they kept the Xbox assets, if that's what they are, for the higher res textures but then increased geometry for Wii. I mean, there's plenty of more concrete things we can discuss.

 

[polybius80]

Can we ban photo mode stills from racers as valid comparison screens? k thnx bai

Otherwise a very entertaining thread to read.



Those are just sprites. Cool use of speed tree techniques before it became popularized by oblivion I guess. Nothing very impressive there. Just hundreds of low quality sprites.

yes they are sprites when are far away and trees when close like most LOD system at the time and that is for good LOD systems most dont draw foliage at all when is that far and you forget that this amount of sprites for trees and bushes in far away mountains was uncommon in that generation and the resolution seems correct for the screen resolution of the time, so not exactly easy you need a lot of fill rate to draw so many.... like ps2

oblivion its a game for newer and more powerful consoles yet I dont see it use as many sprites for far and close foliage probably not the right game to compare not even the same genre different goals and requirements but if its so easy I think using lot of "ugly sprites" is a clever way of improving your game

transformers (PS2)

Oblivion(PS3 Xbox 360)

Morrowind(Xbox)

 

[MidgarBlowedUp]

everything in video games is about using clever tricks!

even PGR use shadow maps, you usually mix the two, you bake the light of the scene and use real time for characters or in this case cars, you can change the gamma in a model to simulate passing under a shadow, there is an LOD(level of detail) system and you change assets to save performance that allows you to use more complex stuff

its real time not a movie you have to use tricks, you can exploit the hardware if you have time, you can twist the game to use the hardware strength and avoid weakness, take any good looking game famous for pushing the hardware were it run and you will see clever tricks everywhere and read stories about a crazy method to use the hardware in very interesting ways using chips that werent supposed to do work that way, PS2 is one of my favorite systems in this regard because it was very weird but with a clear aim, the whole system was a GPU everything is part of a pipeline and had all kind of extra procesors for specific tasks obviously it wasn't easy, VU0 was rarely used for example, the idea of using multi pass is awesome and very clever approach considering the system was developed in a time were there wasnt a standard way of doing graphics, you put a lot of work into developers but in the right hands it worked, PS2 was declared a weak system almost from the beginning and every time a game looked better on other system it was repeated and there are even people that claim dreamcast was more powerful, yet it was able to run more and more complex games year after year, people dont give enough credit to games like transformer armada, matrix path of neo and hitman blood money, matrix and hitman used normal maps wich was said was imposible


compare that to enter the matrix or hitman 3 and its like another generation yet its in the same system

I always thought normal maps would be iether impossible or not done very well on ps2. They did achieve a really nice bump mapping effect with Primal and Ghost Hunter. Despite its flaws and glitches, Ghost Hunter was doing some crazy stuff for the PS2. Dynamic cloth along with some lovely dynamic water effects and nice textures all in 480p. A nice lighting engine too, although it did have some issues. Sweet looking fog, haze, and transparency effects and nicely detailed and animated characters. Game just had a few minor bugs with the lighting sometimes. There's one spot in the game where you can stand between levels. I think one level is inside a mirror or painting or something, then you walk around it in a different level. Walking through it was pretty Damn neat.

But yeah, I mean I just think all the different approaches by the three big companies was pretty innovative. Sure, Xbox was basically a pc, but being in plug and play console form was really a relief for a lot of people. And you can't really blame Sony for the ps2 design. There just wasn't a real standard back then and they had to make something that they thought would compete in the future.

I still say, overall, Xbox>GC>PS2>DC but I still consider all of them in the same generation.

It would be more fun to post the worst looking games on each system. Or post gifs or webms of impressive sections in games from each system.

Damn, I gotta stop making walls of text.
Happy 4th!

 

[SonGoku]

The original Xbox was a wondrous thing at the time. I hope the new Xbox is the same - physically huge and imposing, screaming "POWER!"

No room in your home setup for it? Tough shit.

I agree, fuck this slim consoles pussy ass shit, give us the powah! japan doesnt care about consoles anymore, no point in catering to them with small stylish designs

 

[jadefire66]

I'm going with the GameCube because of its amazing exclusives. The vast majority of the good PS2 games were also on PC so yeah. And I don't know anything about the XBOX.

Also, the GC emulator Dolphin is really awesome. Love that thing. Played a lot of games on it.

 

[SonGoku]

Nintendo released the new 3DS which had a cpu clocked at 800mhz. Pretty much matching or eclipsing Wii at that point.

Ran XBC like shit though and at way lower resolution