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[McRazzle]

Iiiinteresting.
So 14/16nm refresh, likely the same as what is in the Switch Lite... and uh a different "type" of NAND? I don't know whether that refers to MLC/TLC/QLC, overall capacity or even the amount of chips on the board. I suppose a NAND shrink can end up with different dimensions, but would seem an excessive declaration if they were just changing suppliers.

It would have to be on a node lower than 14nm/16nm.

The Switch Lite has a 3570mah battery which is 13.2 watt hours compared to the current Switch 4310mah 15.9 watt hour battery.
Nintendo says you can get four hours playtime of Zelda BOTW with Switch Lite compared to three hours with the current Switch;
that would mean the Switch Lite is using 3.3 watts per hour running BOTW, and let's just say the screen ,speakers and reading the cartridge add up to 1 watt(?), which means the Tegra SOC would be drawing 2.3 watts an hour.

The Jetson Tegra Xavier with 512 cores on 12nm gets 1.4 tflops FP32 and 11 tflops FP16 at 30 watts, which means at 2.3 watts it would get around 108 gflops FP32.
Zelda BOTW supposedly runs around 157 gflops on the current Switch.
So, the Nintendo Switch Lite has to have a chip that has 512 cores on 8nm or 7nm DUV.
I don't think Nvidia would die shrink Turing just for Nintendo , so Ampere maybe?
Nvidia is putting Ampere on 7nm EUV, but they likely would have taped it out on Samsung's 8nm LPU or TSMC's 7nm DUV first, in case EUV didn't pan out.

According to a Ubisoft developer they could get 60%+ of the processing they need from FP16 flops

If the Switch Lite when at full power and using FP16 flops for say 50% of the needed flops, possibly could run next gen games at 720p.
So the revision for the current Switch possibly could run next gen games at 1080p and a pro at 2k upscaling to 4k. ,.... or maybe not.

 

[LMJ]

As long as there aren't exclusive games that can ONLY be played on the new model I'm fine with it, but if they pull a "New3DS" with this thing then they've lost a customer ...

I'll still get their games and systems, but they'll all be second hand, I wont pay for that kind of BS...

 

[SLoWMoTIoN]

You guys really think the Switch Lite is gonna be better than the OG Switch at 200$? lol By September we will have enough threads of people bitching about how blurry games like XC2 and Daemon look on their Lite.

 

[PhoenixTank]

It would have to be on a node lower than 14nm/16nm.

The Switch Lite has a 3570mah battery which is 13.2 watt hours compared to the current Switch 4310mah 15.9 watt hour battery.
Nintendo says you can get four hours playtime of Zelda BOTW with Switch Lite compared to three hours with the current Switch;
that would mean the Switch Lite is using 3.3 watts per hour running BOTW, and let's just say the screen ,speakers and reading the cartridge add up to 1 watt(?), which means the Tegra SOC would be drawing 2.3 watts an hour.

Nice to see figures for the new battery, thanks. This mostly made sense to me up to about here but then we get into flops and watts of another chip, albeit from the same family.

The Jetson Tegra Xavier with 512 cores on 12nm gets 1.4 tflops FP32 and 11 tflops FP16 at 30 watts, which means at 2.3 watts it would get around 108 gflops FP32.

From what I remember, Xavier has a lot of silicon that isn't really useful to gaming given the target of the NN/AI self-driving car market. Have a feeling you've underestimated the perf/w at lower clocks too - the scale is not linear. You've also missed a few important differences between the Lite and the original that are going to contribute to the efficiency of the Lite: Smaller screen with possible backlight efficiency improvements, no HD rumble (possibly no rumble at all). No need to maintain a charge in the controllers either.
Not known, but possible:
If the NAND is on a lower process it will also be at lower voltages. Same can apply to the LPDDR4 modules, or might just be one 32Gb/4GB module now depending on cost & supply. Internal power chips and power delivery could be more efficient given that they can target a lower overall power consumption, rather than dealing with mobile and the upper limit of docked usage.
Subtract that from the OG unit and I think the picture would be rather different.

I'd be beyond shocked if the revision or the Lite were on 7nm rather than a cheaper, more mature process. This is Nintendo... and I don't mean that nastily.

 

[Ulysses 31]

You were just playing Wii U games.

 

[LordOfChaos]

Nintendo (moreso, Nvidia, which Nintendo lucked out on when Nvidia needed to fulfill a waver silicon agreement) was one of the few that ever bothered using that 20nm fab, maybe it just couldn't stay around forever. If there is a shrink, 16nm I'd guess, Nintendo stays well away from bleeding edge fabs.

 

[Chozofication_]

Nintendo was one of the few that ever bothered using that 20nm fab, maybe it just couldn't stay around forever. If there is a shrink, 16nm I'd guess, Nintendo stays well away from bleeding edge fabs.

I don't think its true that Nintendo uses older fabs than sony and MS on purpose. Even ps4 and xb1 would have been 45nm had they launched in 2012 like Wii u.

Wii was 90nm same as ps3.

They grab off the shelf stuff for their handhelds, which may or may not use the latest fab process.

 

[LordOfChaos]

I don't think its true that Nintendo uses older fabs than sony and MS on purpose. Even ps4 and xb1 would have been 45nm had they launched in 2012 like Wii u.

Wii was 90nm same as ps3.

They grab off the shelf stuff for their handhelds, which may or may not use the latest fab process.

The Switch was really the first off the shelf one afaik, for the reason I just edited in with Nvidias WSA. The 3DS SoC doesn't exist for sale outside of the 3DS (or didn't when it was new), but it's a mix of technologies that weren't new when it was.

 

[Neff]

Never be an early adopter.

Game Boy, SNES, N64, PSone, Dreamcast, Wii and Switch say nah

 

[Spukc]

You guys really think the Switch Lite is gonna be better than the OG Switch at 200$? lol By September we will have enough threads of people bitching about how blurry games like XC2 and Daemon look on their Lite.

that's a weird way to state you have the old switch with
no dpad.
worse battery life
way way bulkier

glad i waited for the lite

 

[SLoWMoTIoN]

that's a weird way to state you have the old switch with
no dpad.
worse battery life
way way bulkier
glad i waited for the lite

But I play it docked with my pro controller and 2.1 sound system you dough.

 

[Trimesh]

Nintendo (moreso, Nvidia, which Nintendo lucked out on when Nvidia needed to fulfill a waver silicon agreement) was one of the few that ever bothered using that 20nm fab, maybe it just couldn't stay around forever. If there is a shrink, 16nm I'd guess, Nintendo stays well away from bleeding edge fabs.

My guess is that post these changes, the Switch and the Switch Lite will be using exactly the same die-shunk SoC, just with smaller voltage regulators and less cooling on the Lite model because it doesn't need to support the higher performance docked mode. They will just use the old SoC in the standard Switch until they run out, then swap over to the tweaked design. I can't see any advantage in continuing to make a 20nm part if you already have an equivalent 14/16nm part in production, since the shrunk one will be lower power/cooler/cheaper.
I just wonder if Nintendo will keep the same size battery - it would be nice if they did since it would give you more run time, but I guess swapping in a smaller battery that gives the same run time as the original one with the original SoC would save money.

 

[UltimaKilo]

True. However. Take my PS4 experience fot example. I purchased a PS4 when the Slim model came out. Quieter, cooler, smaller.

My friends have all had to replace their ageing PS4 fats at this point with Slim models, due to various problems.

True, that they got to play for over a year before me, but I only ever had to buy one machine

That sucks man. My OG PS4 still running strong. Hell, I have never had to replace an OG system, other than my 360.

 

[Chozofication_]

The Switch was really the first off the shelf one afaik, for the reason I just edited in with Nvidias WSA. The 3DS SoC doesn't exist for sale outside of the 3DS (or didn't when it was new), but it's a mix of technologies that weren't new when it was.

Wasnt the game boy purely off shelf parts?

 

[SLoWMoTIoN]

That sucks man. My OG PS4 still running strong. Hell, I have never had to replace an OG system, other than my 360.

My Ps4 pro is as loud as my launch 360.

 

[kunonabi]

So...avoiding play all the games that comes for sake of waiting for something stronger?

Why not? It's their job to build the hardware that appeals to us. We're under no obligation to buy anything. I was waiting on the Light but now that I know just how gimped it is I'll wait for a real revision. I don't really give a crap about the performance side of things myself and have other reasons for waiting but anybody else who wants a stronger console is totally free to wait.

 

[Danjin44]

Why not? It's their job to build the hardware that appeals to us. We're under no obligation to buy anything. I was waiting on the Light but now that I know just how gimped it is I'll wait for a real revision. I don't really give a crap about the performance side of things myself and have other reasons for waiting but anybody else who wants a stronger console is totally free to wait.

Sure, you always free wait for stronger hardwares, but I don’t want to miss out on my favourite games.

 

[ethomaz]

What they are using...

- X1 die shrink to 12nm?
- X2?

In both cases it is just a side grade.

 

[Deleted member 752119]

Sure, you always free wait for stronger hardwares, but I don’t want to miss out on my favourite games.

Same. Especially for Nintendo whose games I'm not remotely playing for the graphics in the first place.

 

[Barnabot]

Just don't expect night and day differences between the current and the upcoming hardware update.

 

[Spukc]

But I play it docked with my pro controller and 2.1 sound system you dough.

eww switch games on a big screen

 

[SLoWMoTIoN]

eww switch games on a big screen

Big for you

 

[EverydayBeast]

Um, the DS line in fact was wildly successfully with each subsequent refresh. They're replicating their DS antics.

If you want to play switch games at 4k/60, you will soon be able too, emulator is coming along briskly.

Right now you have MS and SONY duking it out with power, not necessarily launching gimped down consoles (not that sony hasn't done that before (PS2, PSP Go etc.)) the idea of a more powerful Switch sounds a billion times more appealing to me than Switch Lite.

 

[Yoshi]

Never be an early adopter.

A Yoshi game has already released for Switch, so not having bought one yet, makes you a too-late-adopter already (I do not know if Birdo is in though, I think not )!

 

[blu]

It would have to be on a node lower than 14nm/16nm.
..
So, the Nintendo Switch Lite has to have a chip that has 512 cores on 8nm or 7nm DUV.

Are you sincerely fantasizing or plain trolling? Can't decide yet.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Wasnt the game boy purely off shelf parts?

Do not think the sprite HW was...

 

[Saber]

You guys really think the Switch Lite is gonna be better than the OG Switch at 200$? lol By September we will have enough threads of people bitching about how blurry games like XC2 and Daemon look on their Lite.

Thats the way ahaha Pokemon like it ahaha

 

[Trimesh]

Wasnt the game boy purely off shelf parts?

No - it was built around a custom chip that integrated the CPU (which was either an enhanced 8080 or a stripped down Z80 depending on how you look at it), the LCD controller (appears to be a custom design from Sharp), the sound circuitry (presumably designed by Nintendo, since they had some patents on it) and some random logic (controller interface, link port control, etc.). The chip was pretty much the whole Gameboy - all the other components were just support (LCD module, RAM, audio amp and power supplies).

 

[SonGoku]

They grab off the shelf stuff for their handhelds, which may or may not use the latest fab process.

Why didn't they use X2 then?

 

[Chozofication_]

Why didn't they use X2 then?

Well cost obviously but they probably couldnt have produced enough tx2 chips to make it for a spring 2017 release. Fall 2017, probably.

Ps4s chips existed in 2012 but the 28nm node needed to mature and it takes time to mass produce enough chips.

 

[Sid Of Bee]

"Never be an early adopter" is just saying "Be a follower not a leader"....

 

[SonGoku]

Well cost obviously but they probably couldnt have produced enough tx2 chips to make it for a spring 2017 release. Fall 2017, probably.

Such horseshit, X2 was available in 2016, a tiny chip couldn't be mass produced for late 2017?
How did Sony/MS manage with those bigger 16nm dies in 2016 and 2017, santa elves?

Nintendo is always the special snowflake that can't do basic shit console manufacturers do all the time

 

[Chozofication_]

Such horseshit, X2 was available in 2016, a tiny chip couldn't be mass produced for late 2017?
How did Sony/MS manage with those bigger 16nm dies in 2016 and 2017, santa elves?

Nintendo is always the special snowflake that can't do basic shit console manufacturers do all the time

Sunshine, I said they couldnt for spring 2017, but probably could for fall 2017.

They managed because they were secondary machines with derivative processors.

 

[Alexios]

Probably just to solve the hardware security issues of the original or other minor changes (like the different PS1 board models) if it was anything substantial as implied to be a possibility by the original article there'd be no reason not to go through having a "New/Pro/S/X" type system instead.

 

[SonGoku]

Sunshine, I said they couldnt for spring 2017, but probably could for fall 2017.

Sony managed both PS4 Pro and Slim in 2016 (BIG holydays sales) with bigger dies to boot but snowflake Nintendo couldn't spring 2017?

 

[Chozofication_]

Sony managed both PS4 Pro and Slim in 2016 with bigger dies to boot but snowflake Nintendo couldn't spring 2017?

I never said it was impossible, but not practical at the given cost.

Ps4 slim is a die shrink of old technology and pro wasn't exactly bleeding edge. Tx2 is a much newer design.

 

[Trimesh]

Such horseshit, X2 was available in 2016, a tiny chip couldn't be mass produced for late 2017?
How did Sony/MS manage with those bigger 16nm dies in 2016 and 2017, santa elves?

Nintendo is always the special snowflake that can't do basic shit console manufacturers do all the time

If I was designing a mass market consumer product and was given a choice between a 14nm part that had just been taped out and was basically an unknown quantity and a 20nm part that had already been in volume production for some time, I would go with the 20nm part. Most sane designers would - there are enough challenges in getting a product out of the door without throwing additional variables into the mix. The last time Nintendo tried to push the envelope on a technical level was the N64 - and that ended up seriously delayed as a result.
I suspect 99.9% of Switch owners neither know nor care which process node the SoC it's based on was fabbed at anyway.

 

[SonGoku]

I never said it was impossible, but not practical at the given cost.

Sony did both products for profit mind months earlier with enough stock for the holiday season
Where is the hardship preventing Nintendo to have a smaller chip mass produced in enough quantities?

Ps4 slim is a die shrink of old technology and pro wasn't exactly bleeding edge. Tx2 is a much newer design.

Pro used a Polaris GPU that was as big a jump if not bigger compared to previous GCN designs as Maxwell -> Pascal was and PS4 slim chip was redesigned for 16nm
What does technology have to do with mass production hurdles anyways? How does apple manage each year on bleeding edge nodes and processors.

What determines production capacity is yields and the smaller chip will always have better yields, X2 was at the advantage compared to Pro/Slim
There comes a point we have to call it for what it is, Nintendo is cheap.

Most sane designers would

Sony, Ms, Samsung, Apple, Huawei etc are all crazy designers then?
Its Nintendo that's sane, right.

I suspect 99.9% of Switch owners neither know nor care which process node the SoC

Even if they are tech illiterate, they would for sure appreciate 99% of their games looking better due to running at native rez and having more stable performance

 

[Chozofication_]

Sony did both products for profit mind months earlier with enough stock for the holiday season
Where is the hardship preventing Nintendo to have a smaller chip mass produced in enough quantities?

Pro used a Polaris GPU that was as big a jump if not bigger compared to previous GCN designs as Maxwell -> Pascal was and PS4 slim chip was redesigned for 16nm
What does technology have to do with mass production hurdles anyways? How does apple manage each year on bleeding edge nodes and processors
What determines production capacity is yields and the smaller chip will always have better yields, X2 was at the advantage compared to Pro/Slim

There comes a point we have to call it for what it is, Nintendo is cheap.

Christ man, i thought you were asking a genuine question not starting a war, chill the fuck out.

You think nvidias prices had no part in it? Again theres a reason why the other 2 steer clear if them.

Apple manages by charging a grand.

 

[SonGoku]

Christ man, i thought you were asking a genuine question not starting a war, chill the fuck out.

Im chill theres no war, i just dont buy the misconception that a tiny chip would have hurdles mass producing enough units for 2017

You think nvidias prices had no part in it? Again theres a reason why the other 2 steer clear if them.

Yes and i even brought it up it came down to those two reasons: Nintendo being cheap and nvidia greedy
But knowing nvidia greediness why would Nintendo go with them in the first place? maybe there's some truth to the rumor nvidia wanted to get rid of their mountain pile of X1 chips and offered them for dirt cheap to Nintendo which of course being the cheap motherfuckers we know and love, couldn't wait to take the offer.

 

[Chozofication_]

Im chill theres no war, i just dont buy the misconception that a tiny chip would have hurdles mass producing enough units for 2017

Yes and i even brought it up it came down to those two reasons: Nintendo being cheap and nvidia greedy
But knowing nvidia greediness why would Nintendo go with them in the first place? maybe there's some truth to the rumor nvidia wanted to get rid of their mountain pile of X1 chips and offered them for dirt cheap to Nintendo which of course being the cheap motherfuckers we know and love, couldn't wait to take the offer.

Like the first thing i said was "cost obviously" lol it is not my mission to defend any company, but I listed some further reasons why.

The main reason, again, yes it is cost.

But. Slim and pro using 16nm isn't the same as launching an entitely brand new console in mass quantities on a brand new fab node : this isn't the 90s. Yields arent what they used to be.

28nm and gcn were ready in 2012, but the yields werent there. Hence 2013 ps4.

 

[Chozofication_]

SonGoku shit dude zen 2 and navi are here right now ; but yields are going to take until late 2020 to make economic sense for ps5.

 

[SonGoku]

Slim and pro using 16nm isn't the same as launching an entitely brand new console in mass quantities on a brand new fab node

They produced enough units for the holiday season and beyond, that had comparable sales to PS4 launch

Yields arent what they used to be.

But you are ignoring the smaller the die size the better the yields
An hypothetical Switch X2 would have better yields than Pro/Slim not to mention extra months advantage

SonGoku shit dude zen 2 and navi are here right now ; but yields are going to take until late 2020 to make economic sense for ps5.

PS5 we are talking about a 400mm2 die if they go with the same 7nm currently available. tscm mass produced millions of 7nm chips for apple last year
Mobile chips barely if ever reach 200mm2 and are mass produced in more quantities than console launches every year in bleeding edge nodes.

 

[Chozofication_]

They produced enough units for the holiday season and beyond, that had comparable sales to PS4 launch

But you are ignoring the smaller the die size the better the yields
An hypothetical Switch X2 would have better yields than Pro/Slim not to mention extra months advantage

PS5 we are talking about a 400mm2 die if they go with the same 7nm currently available. tscm mass produced millions of 7nm chips for apple last year
Mobile chips barely if ever reach 200mm2 and are mass produced in more quantities than console launches every year in bleeding edge nodes.

Right man, Apple does it because they're willing to pay the cost. Plus there's only so many chips these fabs can produce and every one of these companies is bidding for contracts.

It's really a simple matter of who's willing to pay for the bleeding edge.

 

[Chozofication_]

I suppose I should give sony credit they were there the minute 16nm was ready. Not sure if it's comparable to how many units sony made for the ps4 launch though.

 

[Pallas]

So the newer base Switch consoles will get slightly better CPU and storage? This isn’t the Pro version right and just a revision of the original base console? If so, will it be the same price?

My friend has one. It sounds like a hair dryer. That would really bug me because I game in a quiet room with low volume.

Actually, I think the newer Pros are quieter (According to DF). My point proven again.

They are much quieter, I have one of the newer pros and it’s pretty silent. Not sure why they couldn’t release it as this but I guess it might have upped the price back when it first released.

 

[xGreir]

They produced enough units for the holiday season and beyond, that had comparable sales to PS4 launch

But you are ignoring the smaller the die size the better the yields
An hypothetical Switch X2 would have better yields than Pro/Slim not to mention extra months advantage

PS5 we are talking about a 400mm2 die if they go with the same 7nm currently available. tscm mass produced millions of 7nm chips for apple last year
Mobile chips barely if ever reach 200mm2 and are mass produced in more quantities than console launches every year in bleeding edge nodes.

U are forgetting the most important thing rn:

Nintendo just came from the WiiU failure, and was trying some new concept, an hybrid console that, if for some reason, didn't go well, they would be pretty fucked.

So yeah, they could have pushed Nvidia to develop the X2 for the Switch (doing all the I+D to make it to gaming, remember it was still used as research pieces in the Jetson), paying Nvidia a lot more, charging us a lot lot more for a PORTABLE, and all THAT without knowing if it would fail.

Or they could take the offer that Nvidia gave them, see how it worked, and make plans after that.

It has its own downsides, but I think it's the obvious choice, because "hell yeah, after the failure of the Wii U, we should make a new approach to the video game industry making a portable hybrid, and sell it at 450/500 dollars, bcs we just want to kill ourselves"

There are a lot of factors that can be taken into account, but... I think those are the main reasons behind all the situation.

 

[PhoenixTank]

Why didn't they use X2 then?

Well cost obviously but they probably couldnt have produced enough tx2 chips to make it for a spring 2017 release. Fall 2017, probably.

Possibly production advantages, but the rumour is that there were a lot of X1 chips already available. Supposedly Nintendo got a good deal while Nvidia killed their Shield tablet successor and got to shift chips for a design that hadn't seen real success in the market.

All unconfirmed apart from the Shield X1 getting canned.

 

[Trimesh]

So the newer base Switch consoles will get slightly better CPU and storage? This isn’t the Pro version right and just a revision of the original base console? If so, will it be the same price?

It was filed as a permissive change and the model number is the same, so there will be no end-user visible changes in the product.

 

[Chozofication_]

Possibly production advantages, but the rumour is that there were a lot of X1 chips already available. Supposedly Nintendo got a good deal while Nvidia killed their Shield tablet successor and got to shift chips for a design that hadn't seen real success in the market.

All unconfirmed apart from the Shield X1 getting canned.

I saw reports that switch cost 257 bucks to make at launch, so we definitely were looking at 350-400 for a tx2 powered switch if Nintendo got a sweet deal on old chips.

I definitely would pay that but that would result in far lower overall sales