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Zoe Quinn #meToo / Alec Holowka suicide -- Update: Article questions ZQ's account of events (link in OP)

H

hariseldon

Unconfirmed Member
I'm really sorry to hear that. It takes a special sort of person (or persons in this case) to harrass a guy over a fucking forum. Like shit, what kind of person goes to such lengths, even calling your employer, just to fuck with you?

This is why I believe online interaction should always be in a professional capacity. Don't get to familiar with people you interact with online. You never know if it's a complete lunatic on the other end. Only get personal online with people you can trust. I was unfriended by a guy whom I thought was my friend all because we had differing political beliefs. Woke me up to the realization that I really don't know the people on my friend list.

10 fucking years of that shit. Honestly it was hell. I was young and stupid and you're entirely right about not getting too familiar but this was early 00s and really there wasn't much out there in terms of rules on how to do this stuff. If I knew then what I know now then frankly I'd have never started the damn forum (and I salute the bravery of EviLore EviLore in keeping this thing going in the face of such a hateful internet - I don't have the stomach for it anymore), I sure as hell would have kept my personal info private and so on. These days my facebook is VERY trimmed back, I don't give my name out anywhere and I'm careful about cross-analysable stuff with posts with the same name on different sites.
 

iNvid02

Member
This is fucked up, took a much darker turn than I thought it would.

Whether it was Quinn's attempt at inciting a #metoo campaign for gaming and clawing her way back into relevance by outing an "industry legend, or if she wanted to destroy his life with the accusation its terrifying to think how much power the word alone has in public forum
 

Kadayi

Banned
What I find lamentable about the whole matter is the abject failure at any point to engage with the authorities. If we take ZQ at her word that she liased with the dude and he turned out to be a nightmare why on earth didn't she head to a Police Station as her first port of call? I'm fairly sure Winnipeg has a Police Department, and at the very least they'd have gotten her out of there sooner rather than later. Instead, wait 10 years, then throw the dudes name out into the Twitterverse and watch as his life gets dismantled, until he tops himself...:messenger_dizzy:
 

Nickolaidas

Member
No bro, you always gotta BELIEVE WOMEN. Even if there's zero evidence to back up the statements and the accuser is a known pathological liar.


Cwmedv9.png
So Quinn (allegedly) claimed to have stabbed and killed a man. And taking into account Malorie's 'testimony', it's safe to assume that story of Zoe's a lie (or a gigantic distortion of events). And of course I mean what Zoe claimed (stabbing a man) is a lie, not Malorie's side of the story.

But this is the Internet. This is the place where we read a wall of text and choose to believe it, then read another wall of text and choose to disregard it. Why is that?

Let me tell you a little story.

Once upon a time, in the not-so-distant past, during the economic crisis which nearly crippled Greece, a man named Artemis Sorras appeared (literally, no one knew him before that time), and claimed he had enough money to buy out all of Greece's debt (about 350 billion dollars), and later claimed that he had the authority to use up to 115 trillion dollars (yes, TRIllion) for the benefit of my country. He also asked for Greek natives to become subscribers of his political organization with a 10 dollar subscription per month. Sorras explained that unless the Greek government was overthrown, he couldn't buy the debt - the 1% wouldn't let him, because they wanted Greece to remain in debt to the EU. He also claimed that he had unique scientific knowledge of how to convert anything to fuel, and sold the recipe to ex-US President Barak Obama for 600 billion US dollars, how he was about to buy the 2nd best sports team of Greece, how every single country and nation has it in for the Greeks and wants to destroy them, and numerous other ridiculous stuff. Crème de la crème: He claims that Alexander the Great had an amulet which allowed him and his army to bend Space and Time and teleport to numerous battlefields at the same time, which is how he won so many battles.

Numerous acquaintances of Sorras would come out in TV interviews and call the man a fraud (not that there was any need, since his claims were literally absurd), that he was a poor fuck who always cheated anyone he worked with and how he always wanted to make money with numerous scams and frauds. Despite all that, there were numerous Greeks who became subscribers and thought themselves as awakened citizens who learned the truth and had the mission of saving Greece from the debtors.

Eventually Sorras told his subscribers that whenever the state would ask for them to pay their taxes, they should give Sorras 50 bucks and he would give them a piece of paper which basically said that the state gets the tax amount paid by Sorras, and not the citizen, because the 115 trillion dollars where in the name of all Greeks. The State eventually got a warrant for his arrest, and after one year of Sorras and his wife hiding in a basement from the authorities, the police captured them and imprisoned them (his wife was later let go, while Sorras is still in prison).

To this day, his subscribers believe he was framed, he was threatened to be killed by the 'powers that be', and some of those claim he's out of prison and walks freely, he just doesn't want exposure. Oh, and he wears Alexander's ring as a symbol of his Greek heritage.

Now, the moral of the story:

1) No matter how stupid and outrageous your lie is, some people will believe it,

2) Those close to you and who have knowledge of your past will be the first who will call you out on your bullshit,

3) Even if your lies are exposed, some people will STILL believe you, despite you being a proven liar,

4) When your lies cause trouble with the law, you WILL face consequences,

and 5) At the end of the day, facts don't matter to the public. Testimonies don't matter to the public. Verdicts don't matter to the public. Common sense doesn't matter to the public.

Because people believe what they WANT to believe.
 
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Clear

CliffyB's Cock Holster
What i dont get is why his team mates immediately threw him under the bus and cut ties if they knew about his mental health issues and him apologizing?

Probably fear and/or basic social compliance. Whenever allegations of this sort are made, people around the accused always seem to cut ties. Its understandable to some extent (self preservation), but its why this sort of public "outing" is so viciously unfair and to my mind, toxic.
 

Facism

Member
So Quinn (allegedly) claimed to have stabbed and killed a man. And taking into account Malorie's 'testimony', it's safe to assume that story of Zoe's a lie (or a gigantic distortion of events). And of course I mean what Zoe claimed (stabbing a man) is a lie, not Malorie's side of the story.

But this is the Internet. This is the place where we read a wall of text and choose to believe it, then read another wall of text and choose to disregard it. Why is that?

Let me tell you a little story.

Once upon a time, in the not-so-distant past, during the economic crisis which nearly crippled Greece, a man named Artemis Sorras appeared (literally, no one knew him before that time), and claimed he had enough money to buy out all of Greece's debt (about 350 billion dollars), and later claimed that he had the authority to use up to 115 trillion dollars (yes, TRIllion) for the benefit of my country. He also asked for Greek natives to become subscribers of his political organization with a 10 dollar subscription per month. Sorras explained that unless the Greek government was overthrown, he couldn't buy the debt - the 1% wouldn't let him, because they wanted Greece to remain in debt to the EU. He also claimed that he had unique scientific knowledge of how to convert anything to fuel, and sold the recipe to ex-US President Barak Obama for 600 billion US dollars, how he was about to buy the 2nd best sports team of Greece, how every single country and nation has it in for the Greeks and wants to destroy them, and numerous other ridiculous stuff. Crème de la crème: He claims that Alexander the Great had an amulet which allowed him and his army to bend Space and Time and teleport to numerous battlefields at the same time, which is how he won so many battles.

Numerous acquaintances of Sorras would come out in TV interviews and call the man a fraud (not that there was any need, since his claims were literally absurd), that he was a poor fuck who always cheated anyone he worked with and how he always wanted to make money with numerous scams and frauds. Despite all that, there were numerous Greeks who became subscribers and thought themselves as awakened citizens who learned the truth and had the mission of saving Greece from the debtors.

Eventually Sorras told his subscribers that whenever the state would ask for them to pay their taxes, they should give Sorras 50 bucks and he would give them a piece of paper which basically said that the state gets the tax amount paid by Sorras, and not the citizen, because the 115 trillion dollars where in the name of all Greeks. The State eventually got a warrant for his arrest, and after one year of Sorras and his wife hiding in a basement from the authorities, the police captured them and imprisoned them (his wife was later let go, while Sorras is still in prison).

To this day, his subscribers believe he was framed, he was threatened to be killed by the 'powers that be', and some of those claim he's out of prison and walks freely, he just doesn't want exposure. Oh, and he wears Alexander's ring as a symbol of his Greek heritage.

Now, the moral of the story:

1) No matter how stupid and outrageous your lie is, some people will believe it,

2) Those close to you and who have knowledge of your past will be the first who will call you out on your bullshit,

3) Even if your lies are exposed, some people will STILL believe you, despite you being a proven liar,

4) When your lies cause trouble with the law, you WILL face consequences,

and 5) At the end of the day, facts don't matter to the public. Testimonies don't matter to the public. Verdicts don't matter to the public. Common sense doesn't matter to the public.

Because people believe what they WANT to believe.
fucking hell that sounds wild haha. What a madman
 
My condolences goes to his family/friends for this catastrophic event. This is really terrible and screwed up beyond belief. So if I’m hearing correctly, she reported these unproven allegations to Twitter instead of the authorities? Isn’t that a huge red flag there? Social media can be great, but I feel that it is quickly becoming a vile and cancerous cesspool as the days go by.
 
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Whitesnake

Banned
What i dont get is why his team mates immediately threw him under the bus and cut ties if they knew about his mental health issues and him apologizing?

To keep themselves in the good graces of the angry mob. A performance to appear “woke” to appease the likes of Twitter and Reset.

Why take a stand when you can just feed a guy to the sharks and run away?

Cowards.
 

Saruhashi

Banned
Feels like an incident like this is inevitable when you allow ZQ and co to do whatever they want and never ever call them out over it.
Eventually someone gets hurt and instead of just costing this guy his career and his social circle it ended up costing him his life.

The indie scene is not like the mainstream videogame industry. You have people making huge risks and leaps of faith on a career that may never materialize. You cannot also have a "Morality Police" hounding and harassing people knowing that they have the power to ostracize and ruin anyone they set their sights on.

If the gaming journalism sphere took some goddamn responsibility and called out the bad actors on THEIR side of the fence then maybe stuff like this can be mitigated. Instead a known toxic individual who HAS lied before and who DOES always try to put themselves at the centre of attention is allowed to go around saying whatever the hell they want and nobody is allowed to say "hang on, let's slow the fuck down here".

This is the result.

How painful that a person who is supposedly against internet mobs, who is against bullying online, against "punching down" and is against setting your followers against people, ends up being the one who sets her own "mob" onto some guy WHO WAS ALREADY IN A VULNERABLE PLACE to the extent that he takes his own life.

Sometimes I wonder if they have ANY sense of self awareness at all. Did she even think for a second "when I post this the guy I'm naming is going to be subject to a shit-ton on online abuse like I was so maybe the correct move is to AT THE VERY LEAST gather irrefutable evidence or just go through legal channels". The lack of self-reflection is appalling.

What do you expect though? She's on about half a decade of shitty behavior that nobody ever calls out. Everything she does is applauded because it supposedly "annoys gamergate" and everything she fucks up is brushed under the carpet. Why wouldn't she think "I can say whatever I want about this guy and if it all goes wrong then the entire indie community and associated journos have my back".

So many people seem to agree with the "there are no bad tactics only bad targets" mantra and honestly these people need to take a long look at themselves in the mirror.

On one hand they want to cry "foul" when someone calls them out on their bullshit but on the other hand they think it's fine to deliberately wreck someone's life via Trial by Twitter.

There are far too many people out there who enabled and encouraged this kind of behavior and now we are starting to see the consequences.
 

Guiberu

Member
The wrong person died in the title.

Nah, man.

No-one needed to die.

I dislike Quinn immensely. Been around/with far too many people just like her.

But she doesn't deserve death any more, or less than Alec did.

This whole situation should just shine a big, glaring light on the outright insanity of the faux-purity culture. And of course the general concept of "trial by social media".

There are thousands of years of civilization supporting why there should always be innocence, until trial/proof of guilt.

Yes, there may be issues with the way the current legal system works. But that doesn't mean it should be abandoned and replaced with mob rule.

More energy toward both a) Using it in the first place, and b) Following due course if things aren't handled correctly, would actually be doing something positive.
 

Rien

Jelly Belly
It is so fucking bizarre to see people being (perm) banned on there just because they say that the forum has problems with being toxic and handles cases like this in a bad manner that need to be debated.
Even if they state it in the most polite way they get the ban.
 

ROMhack

Member
Feels like an incident like this is inevitable when you allow ZQ and co to do whatever they want and never ever call them out over it.
Eventually someone gets hurt and instead of just costing this guy his career and his social circle it ended up costing him his life.

The indie scene is not like the mainstream videogame industry. You have people making huge risks and leaps of faith on a career that may never materialize. You cannot also have a "Morality Police" hounding and harassing people knowing that they have the power to ostracize and ruin anyone they set their sights on.

If the gaming journalism sphere took some goddamn responsibility and called out the bad actors on THEIR side of the fence then maybe stuff like this can be mitigated. Instead a known toxic individual who HAS lied before and who DOES always try to put themselves at the centre of attention is allowed to go around saying whatever the hell they want and nobody is allowed to say "hang on, let's slow the fuck down here".

This is the result.

How painful that a person who is supposedly against internet mobs, who is against bullying online, against "punching down" and is against setting your followers against people, ends up being the one who sets her own "mob" onto some guy WHO WAS ALREADY IN A VULNERABLE PLACE to the extent that he takes his own life.

Sometimes I wonder if they have ANY sense of self awareness at all. Did she even think for a second "when I post this the guy I'm naming is going to be subject to a shit-ton on online abuse like I was so maybe the correct move is to AT THE VERY LEAST gather irrefutable evidence or just go through legal channels". The lack of self-reflection is appalling.

What do you expect though? She's on about half a decade of shitty behavior that nobody ever calls out. Everything she does is applauded because it supposedly "annoys gamergate" and everything she fucks up is brushed under the carpet. Why wouldn't she think "I can say whatever I want about this guy and if it all goes wrong then the entire indie community and associated journos have my back".

So many people seem to agree with the "there are no bad tactics only bad targets" mantra and honestly these people need to take a long look at themselves in the mirror.

On one hand they want to cry "foul" when someone calls them out on their bullshit but on the other hand they think it's fine to deliberately wreck someone's life via Trial by Twitter.

There are far too many people out there who enabled and encouraged this kind of behavior and now we are starting to see the consequences.

Good point about the indie game thing. It doesn't seem that there's any human side to the debate as it's largely true that 'problems' are framed in the same way that AAA games are. Only of course AAA companies can absorb problems with much greater ease than indie developers can, who are going to find their livelihoods jeopardized massively by such accusations.

It seems to be why the other devs for NitW distanced themselves from Alec, basically choosing personal well-being over their friend simply because they happen to work in an industry that has become an extremely weaponised thanks to the actions of some people working in it (e.g. Zoe Quinn).

Regarding the bold, that's basically it. They've cocooned themselves into online bubbles. GG appears to be some kind of comfort pillow for them; a way that they know there's others out there willing to do their bidding should they wish for it to happen. It also happens on the flip side too, with 4chan being an example (which is why I personally distanced myself).

NG can be shitty at times but I feel there's a lot more perspective on this forum. We bicker about some irrelevant and maybe unimportant shit but I like to think people are well-adjusted enough not to go after people's personal livelihoods through unconfirmed and speculative accusations. It sucks all round. RIP Alec.
 
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Ogbert

Member
So, with a little bit of luck, the family will be taking legal advice.

For a start, the studio/publisher needs to be sued to fucking high heaven. If they were aware of his mental health, their duty of care should give grounds for a negligence case.

Fucking destroy them.

People need to start going to prison for this.
 

Nikodemos

Member
This is fucked up, took a much darker turn than I thought it would.

Whether it was Quinn's attempt at inciting a #metoo campaign for gaming and clawing her way back into relevance by outing an "industry legend, or if she wanted to destroy his life with the accusation its terrifying to think how much power the word alone has in public forum
It does feel like the whole thing was a tentative try at sparking a #metoo in gaming, after the previous attempt fizzled, partly because of GamerGate's bloodthirst, partly because of Quinn and Sarkeesian's relatively poor moral fiber.
Though this time it blew up rather badly.
 
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Punished Miku

Gold Member
You’re acting as if they did this lightly. If they had not cut him off this would have followed them forever.
Maybe? Or they could stand with a friend and explain that he changed and worked his stuff out like Dave Bautista did with James Gunn. Or like Robert Downey Jr did with Mel Gibson.

This is all new and the rules aren't written in stone. I just think it's worth thinking about how this went down with these two. No one talked about harassing them but you, for the record.
 

ROMhack

Member
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petran79

Banned
Now no sane person will believe her and if they do they'll be labelled liars too.


fucking hell that sounds wild haha. What a madman

his political party took part in the 2019 EU elections and got 0.45% of votes and he was a contender despite being still imprisoned!
He also took part in the national elections this summer with 0.25% and 14.000 votes. Only in Greece!
 

blu

Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
This is awful. Despite what he may or may not have done, social media justice has gotten way out of hand.

From what I recall, she even said he'd apologized for his actions and she'd forgiven him.

What purpose then did it serve to call upon the rabid social media warriors to attack him further?

She had to have known that this would at the very least ruin his life. I can't imagine she thought this would have been the result.

I'm sympathetic to her alleged abuse, but I honestly hope this weighs on her conscience for a very long time.
I hope it weighs on her criminal record.
 
You would think that, from this experience they would learn and from this point forward only the authorities should be involved rather than putting it over social media.

But nope, double down time, humans really are detestable sometimes.

Whatever the guy did or did not do, it should have been handled by the authorities.

We shouldn't have to immediately "believe" whatever someone claims, yes, we should listen, but ultimately, after that, it should be dealt with by authorities.

Social media needs to clamp down on this doxxing cancel culture mentality, it's toxic as fuck and serves no purpose other than to satisfy the blood thirst these losers have.
 
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Saruhashi

Banned
Further, this is clearly why the other devs for NitW distanced themselves from Alec, basically choosing personal well-being over their friend simply because they happen to work in an industry that has become an extremely weaponised thanks to the actions of some people working in it (e.g. Zoe Quinn).

Yeah, I find it difficult to blame the NitW team since they will have seen incidents like Ion Fury recently and will be looking to just avoid the firestorm that ZQ and journos could potentially send their way (again, related to that lack of self-awareness).

Unfortunately for them they would have probably not anticipated this tragic conclusion.

Could you seriously imagine if those developers has said last week "we have heard the allegations but we stand by Alec until we see some evidence and/or he gets a criminal conviction"?

They would have been "put on blast". So it's like a lose-lose for them.
Easy to accuse them of being cowards but it's their livelihood that is potentially on the line.

You had Anita bragging a few months back about CDPR being "dragged by the internet".
You had this nonsense with Colin Moriarty and PAX.
You have this ongoing shitstorm with THQ Nordic.
You had that stuff with Ion Fury also.

These people are essentially a movement that hounds developers, journalists and others associated with the industry, who displease them and they are open about it because any criticism against them is portrayed as harassment etc.

They probably have never even considered for a moment "hey you know maybe we could end up driving someone over the edge here".

You can look at a certain other forum for proof of what happens to people who say "guys maybe we need to calm down here and behave rationally". User Banned. Dismissing concerns about...
 

Dabaus

Banned
Between this and the Etika suicide, someone should collate all the Reset comments celebrating their deaths with a big ol' "ResetEra celebrates suicide" image.

Why stop with an image? Make threads, make you tube videos, make hashtags on twitter or anything else to expose that hell hole. Also, make it a explicit to any game company or developer that if they are in contact with Quinn or any of her ilk that you will not be buying their product.
 
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So I'm kinda out of the loop on this but, from what I'm to understand....Zoe accused Alec without any proof, Alec had a history of mental health his studio knew of and ignored, Zoe/Iron Galaxy/ResetEra piled on abuse towards him and Alec killed himself over all of this?

...and people STILL want to give ResetEra credibility as a source? They've doxxed devs multiple times and now have some sort of hand in a person committing suicide? What if it turns out he was innocent the whole time?

It's probably time to have some legal ramifications come to the parties involved in this: it was basically cyber bullying turned up to 11.

Why stop with an image? Make threads, make you tube videos, make hashtags on twitter or anything else to expose that hell hole. Also, make it a explicit to any game company or developer that if they are in contact with Quinn or any of her ilk that you will not be buying their product.

They should also make one saying "ResetEra celebrates doxxing", because they aren't going to stop doing that either. That place is filled with narcissistic blowholes.
 
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ROMhack

Member
Yeah, I find it difficult to blame the NitW team since they will have seen incidents like Ion Fury recently and will be looking to just avoid the firestorm that ZQ and journos could potentially send their way (again, related to that lack of self-awareness).

Unfortunately for them they would have probably not anticipated this tragic conclusion.

Could you seriously imagine if those developers has said last week "we have heard the allegations but we stand by Alec until we see some evidence and/or he gets a criminal conviction"?

They would have been "put on blast". So it's like a lose-lose for them.
Easy to accuse them of being cowards but it's their livelihood that is potentially on the line.

You had Anita bragging a few months back about CDPR being "dragged by the internet".
You had this nonsense with Colin Moriarty and PAX.
You have this ongoing shitstorm with THQ Nordic.
You had that stuff with Ion Fury also.

These people are essentially a movement that hounds developers, journalists and others associated with the industry, who displease them and they are open about it because any criticism against them is portrayed as harassment etc.

They probably have never even considered for a moment "hey you know maybe we could end up driving someone over the edge here".

You can look at a certain other forum for proof of what happens to people who say "guys maybe we need to calm down here and behave rationally". User Banned. Dismissing concerns about...

That's a more thoughtful way of putting it and I do get why they did it, but it sucks how weaponised this shit has become to the point where they feel they have to.

Generally, I wish people would show more individuality and stop riding the coat-tails of the angry internet hate mob (the accusers, not the NitW team).
 
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Ar¢tos

Member
It is so fucking bizarre to see people being (perm) banned on there just because they say that the forum has problems with being toxic and handles cases like this in a bad manner that need to be debated.
Even if they state it in the most polite way they get the ban.
I'm glad I was permabanned there in the first months (just for having a different opinion).
By now they would have probably mind washed me into their crazy beliefs.
 

nkarafo

Member
I miss the old wild west internet before Facebook, before Twitter. When social interaction was just gaming forums where everybody called each other stupid faggots and nobody took it seriously.
I blame the ease of access. Computers/phones became way too easy to use. The internet also became user friendly and fast enough for everyone. All the soccermoms, the oversensitive little girls, the dumb narcissist jocks, etc, entered this world and made it theirs.
 

cormack12

Gold Member
So I'm kinda out of the loop on this but, from what I'm to understand....Zoe accused Alec without any proof, Alec had a history of mental health his studio knew of and ignored, Zoe/Iron Galaxy/ResetEra piled on abuse towards him and Alec killed himself over all of this?

Something happened between Zoe and Alec years ago.
While the accusations are one sided, it's probably a safe bet it was an unhealthy relationship from the documented evidence.
Neither sound great mentally speaking.
Sounds like some kink games got out of hand.
There were verbal arguments.
Alec admitted during that time he was battling depression, anxiety and other mental issues which exacerbated behaviour he was not proud of.
Eventually they split up with no further consequences.
A few years later (I think, might be months), Alec reached out to Zoe, was contrite and apologised for his behaviour and had been doing much better.
All of this was handled privately between the two adults I believe.
Recently a woman tried to start a #meToo campaign with allegations against Jeremy Soule.
Despite knowing about Alec's condition, battle and the fact this was handled privately almost a decade ago without any criminal proceedings Zoe Quinn thought it was now the chance to release all the details to the outrage mob on twitter lest the chance for some victim accolades go begging.
 
Why stop with an image? Make threads, make you tube videos, make hashtags on twitter or anything else to expose that hell hole. Also, make it a explicit to any game company or developer that if they are in contact with Quinn or any of her ilk that you will not be buying their product.
I only said an image because they're easier/quicker to post onto an article/Twitter thread that sources Reset. But yes, it shouldn't stop there. The sooner that gaming sites realize that they're absolutely awful people, the better.
Also, I've been told that an expose' about Reset is coming out soon from Sophia Narwitz.
 

Stuchinoko

Member
I only said an image because they're easier/quicker to post onto an article/Twitter thread that sources Reset. But yes, it shouldn't stop there. The sooner that gaming sites realize that they're absolutely awful people, the better.
Also, I've been told that an expose' about Reset is coming out soon from Sophia Narwitz.
Good luck to her and hopes of success. Lord knows that Restera has its rotting fingers pushed into every pie imaginable and will try their hardest to smear her or hide the evidence.
 
So, with a little bit of luck, the family will be taking legal advice.

For a start, the studio/publisher needs to be sued to fucking high heaven. If they were aware of his mental health, their duty of care should give grounds for a negligence case.

Fucking destroy them.

People need to start going to prison for this.
His sister is a feminist whos first response to her brother dying was, I believe survivors. I'd be shocked if the family did anything.
 
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