-Arcadia-
Banned
Good thing he also had nuanced replies about several aspects of the game, and referenced the developer’s own actions and stated objectives, in addition to making an interesting observation?
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Is Ellie from “The last of us: Part ii” on steroids??
- Thread starter chilleverest
- Start date
- Opinion
Good thing he also had nuanced replies about several aspects of the game, and referenced the developer’s own actions and stated objectives, in addition to making an interesting observation?
Jon Neu
Banned
Ellie was Ellen Page, now she isn't because that would make her too feminine and fragile looking (and that's sexist, you know).
Now she's just the embodiment of the Naughty Dog's fantasy of what a strong independent lesbian looks like. She's literally manlier than you.
Ah, the good old reductio ad absurdum mixed with a straw man fallacy.
-Arcadia-
Banned
But see, in defending someone, I was tricked into feeding the SJWs. That’s my fault. You don’t go around scattering peanut butter and jelly sandwich pieces near the underside of the bridge. 
With a fresh onslaught of bad faith argumentative tactics, I will return to shitposting them.
Ignore or mock. Don’t engage with people that don’t want to honestly engage with you.
With a fresh onslaught of bad faith argumentative tactics, I will return to shitposting them.
Ignore or mock. Don’t engage with people that don’t want to honestly engage with you.
I'm sorry you feel made fun of. We're all good pals here.
-Arcadia-
Banned
Did you just strip the quotations... okay, that’s actually pretty funny.
Trogdor1123
Gold Member
I wonder how much of a roll the fungus will have in this one compared to the last one.
-Arcadia-
Banned
The way some people are acting, it’s playing a big role in this thread.
DForce
NaughtyDog Defense Force
Pushing for a lesbian character is fine and I don't see why it's a really big issue.
In the 70's, 80's and the early 90's, directors and producers did the same thing by putting more black actors and actresses on screen. The problem with the 90's is that many black actors didn't want to portray the stereotypical role.
If people want to push for more gay and trans characters, then that's fine.
The issue should be when it's completely forced. The Last of Us' story is completely original and her origin story as being a gay character didn't feel that way.
It feels forced when they want to change a character origin story of a popular character by making them gay or completely changing their racial background.
Another way is to make the entire movie or video game heavily involved in politics.
But subtle messages can work.
Example is X-Men.
As Stan Lee describes.
If the Last of Us' story was revolved around current social issues, then that would take away from the plot and count as "SJW propaganda."
In the 70's, 80's and the early 90's, directors and producers did the same thing by putting more black actors and actresses on screen. The problem with the 90's is that many black actors didn't want to portray the stereotypical role.
If people want to push for more gay and trans characters, then that's fine.
The issue should be when it's completely forced. The Last of Us' story is completely original and her origin story as being a gay character didn't feel that way.
It feels forced when they want to change a character origin story of a popular character by making them gay or completely changing their racial background.
Another way is to make the entire movie or video game heavily involved in politics.
But subtle messages can work.
Example is X-Men.
As Stan Lee describes.
If the Last of Us' story was revolved around current social issues, then that would take away from the plot and count as "SJW propaganda."
mortal
Gold Member
Yes that's the entire point. The themes of TLOU Part II are that of hate, vengeance, and cycles of violence.I'm not trying to be unfair with my argument, it's not like they ignored everything about how she looked before though the eyes are more rounded because that's more sympathetic and they want to evoke less of that now. The thing is I actually picked a more flattering shot of her, look at how they're advertising it on the box art...
Her eyes were also rounder because she was a young teenager. Which led more visual emphasis on her inexperience with the world. It's very much a deliberate contrast.
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Explosive Zombie
Banned
But her sexuality WAS added later via DLC not in the original game.
I'm not denying any of this, I'm saying that the agenda exists regardless of any of it being perfectly reasonable and explainable. The agenda is explicitly stated in a video I linked. I've already provided good arguments for how Ellie is like the one you highlighted or the one where I mention her internal turmoil being reflected externally (in particular the shot of her bruised up back), these are all totally fine but people complaining SJW agendas drove it aren't without a point when they clearly said they were influenced by people like Anita Sarkeesian to make a non-sexualised heroine.
DForce
NaughtyDog Defense Force
Yes, and that's not an issue.
Everything that happened didn't take away from the story. It was just a small part of what actually happened.
People can say that they tried to force a narrative by specifically showing Ellie and her GF kiss during the gameplay reveal trailer and that's fair.
But the thing is, she's only in a relationship with this woman who eventually dies. What would be forcing a narrative down people's throat would be to create the story based on her GF dying because she is gay and Ellie is trying to fight for justice.
We get the idea that the story is about revenge from killing her GF and the cycle of violence. From what we're hearing, the main story main not even be about revenge, it's about the cycle of violence and Ellie may be fighting for more than one person's death.
Hissing Sid
Member
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Shagger
Banned
I'm getting the impression that you're not aware, buy Ellie was played both in voice and motion capture by Ashley Johnson
Granted, the character model does more closely resemble Ellen Paige, but that was a coincidence. And a bit troublesome as Ellen was cast in and her likeness used in another PS exclusive game that year, Beyond: Two Souls.
But yeah, just in case people weren't aware.
mortal
Gold Member
Who's they? I assume Druckmann? Can you link to that statement by any chance?
Given the themes and setting of these games, why would the lack of a "non-sexualized" protagonist even be worthy of contention in this game?
If Ellie in Part II became overtly sexualized, that would genuinely seem like an odd design decision and seemingly out of sync with the creative direction.
In TLOU she was always more of a tomboy to begin with, both in demeanor and manner of dress. So regardless of Anita's apparent influence or not, Ellie in Part II seems like natural progression of her character as depicted in the TLOU.
Also I find it rather interesting you keep using the term "agenda," as opposed to creative direction. If Naughty Dog wanting to take their characters in certain directions visually and narratively is indicative of an agenda, then literally every developer ever has an agenda. When the newest trailer fo TLOU part II dropped, I've even seen some tweets from a vocal minority of what I assume are gay women, accusing Naughty Dog in perpetuating this trope of "burying your gays", because the editing of the trailer implies that Dina was murdered.
This is the exact problem I have with this so called culture war. It makes people too fucking cynical about everything. That same mentality can be seen in reverse in places like Resetera when they think developers that design their characters in a certain manner or tell certain stories is due to some sort of agenda. Instead, it's ultimately just developers making the games they want to make. Much like any medium for story telling, there are times creators will make something that speaks to you and hits all the notes. Sometimes it will not; and in the most extreme cases, what they create could be entirely at odds with your personal preferences and interests.
Without having ever experienced the game and what it has to offer, it's very easy to attribute some sort of agenda or ulterior motives from the outside.
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Tesseract
Banned
Yes but you're still massively reaching. Making a heroine be non-sexualized does not necessarily mean:
1. Purposely giving her wide shoulders
2. Purposely making her ugly
3. Purposely making her look like a man
The actual influence was probably that Ellie just isn't dressing and acting like a bimbo - which also has the benefit of making this particular game better. The specific complaints above are conspiracy-level BS.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
We don’t even know if the girlfriend dies, she could also be a sleeper agent.
Hell, one of the previews gave away that they kill her dog. That’s enough for anybody to go John Wick on their asses, IMO.
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Explosive Zombie
Banned
Uncharted 4 Director Says They Had To Ask One 'Sexist Focus Tester' To Leave
Not everyone was happy with new Uncharted 4 characters like Nadine “Triceps” Ross. In fact, according to director Neil Druckmann, his team had to ask an angry focus tester to leave the room after he freaked out over the game’s portrayal of women.
kotaku.com
'Uncharted 4' Director on Nathan Drake, Sexism in Games
The 'Uncharted 4' director Neil Druckmann talks about reading NeoGAF forums, sexist focus testers and Nathan Drake as game developer.
www.rollingstone.com
Like, that they have an agenda and have changed how they do things due to Anita Sarkeesian is undeniable, especially since they outright admit to it. Everything you're saying is fine assuming we don't have this outer context letting us know the agenda does exist. Without the context of these interviews and so forth you could just say they made a game a certain way. But you guys are still arguing like we're in a vacuum while ignoring evidence I posted earlier that we're not, here's some more, hopefully it doesn't go ignored again.
Finally, I am not here to tell you there's some problem with what they're doing, that it doesn't fit, that it's forced or that it's unnatural. I'm not even here to tell you there's a problem with them having an agenda and admitting to it. I think I worded my posts well enough that I can't be accused of any of that. I'd argue few people here are more hyped for the game than I am as the first is among my favorite games of all time and I expect even better from 2. This is 100% trying to be fair to the other side of the issue.
Shagger
Banned
I have theory that Dina is the evil mastermind, but knowing what an intuitive genius I am I don't want to develop it because I'll end up spoiling the game for myself.
DForce
NaughtyDog Defense Force
Uncharted 4 Director Says They Had To Ask One 'Sexist Focus Tester' To Leave
Not everyone was happy with new Uncharted 4 characters like Nadine “Triceps” Ross. In fact, according to director Neil Druckmann, his team had to ask an angry focus tester to leave the room after he freaked out over the game’s portrayal of women.'Uncharted 4' Director on Nathan Drake, Sexism in Games
The 'Uncharted 4' director Neil Druckmann talks about reading NeoGAF forums, sexist focus testers and Nathan Drake as game developer.
Like, that they have an agenda and have changed how they do things due to Anita Sarkeesian is undeniable, especially since they outright admit to it. Everything you're saying is fine assuming we don't have this outer context letting us know the agenda does exist. Without the context of these interviews and so forth you could just say they made a game a certain way. But you guys are still arguing like we're in a vacuum while ignoring evidence I posted earlier that we're not, here's some more, hopefully it doesn't go ignored again.
Finally, I am not here to tell you there's some problem with what they're doing, that it doesn't fit, that it's forced or that it's unnatural. I'm not even here to tell you there's a problem with them having an agenda and admitting to it. I think I worded my posts well enough that I can't be accused of any of that. I'd argue few people here are more hyped for the game than I am as the first is among my favorite games of all time and I expect even better from 2. This is 100% trying to be fair to the other side of the issue.
Videos were simply debunked and taken out of context.
Silent Duck
Member
Tupinambis_WOT
Member
LoL I'm not asking anybody to change. I'm just pretty confident that at least a third of the people posting in this thread have never seen a naked woman in real life. That wouldn't be anything in of itself, but its also hilarious watching them try and argue what a woman is "supposed" to look like. I thought that was just a dickish stereotype I was dunking into when I was throwing "incel" at people, but holy shit I guess I was right. Guess that explains why so many people seemed so defensive and sensitive about it.
I've only made it through the first 5 pages, and then the pages after my comment, but as far as I saw nobody was taking it this far, ironically or not.
Also, as far as a lack of self awareness goes, you should do a mental excercise comparing this thread to any other thread complaining about women being oversexualized in other games [MGS5, DoA, MK10, etc] and then try to, honestly and in good faith, argue how this thread is less stupid than those.
Explosive Zombie
Banned
Holy crap, I'm like 7 minutes into this and he still hasn't made his argument... wtf...
The added context makes it so his agenda is to change the industry like wtf, how does this context make it better? Also why does he need to go out of the way to make a 13 year old not sexualised? He's right that he talks about the inspiration of his daughter but he also cites the books he read and Anita so... ::shrugs::
Dr. Claus
Vincit qui se vincit
Slow day at ResetEra, huh?
I am fully aware, but sometimes the obvious needs to be stated.
DForce
NaughtyDog Defense Force
The context makes it clear that the influence for his decision was because of his daughter. His views changed as she got older. He was also influenced by those sexualized designs and his early work showed it.
The videos make it appear like he saw so many sexualized female characters, heavily influenced by Anita and wanted to push this feminist agenda.
What's also clear that his decision was made around the same time Anita started her kickstarter, which means his "awakening" was not because of her.
He also probably hits at not fully agreeing with her as he talked about she tries to deliver her message.
Whether you know the intimate details of hundreds of users participating in this thread is unlikely. We can gather a lot about your own personal shame based on these sweeping generalizations, though.
Explosive Zombie
Banned
I mean he still cites Anita being a part of his decision, he begins with his daughter than transitions to her. But honestly this is such a weird tangent, what would it matter if a banana is the reason he decided to do it when he's doing it? It's not really defeating the actual thrust of the argument and it's honestly giving me flashbacks to the guy at EA saying his daughter didn't know why she couldn't be a World War II soldier.
Tupinambis_WOT
Member
lol dude, you don't exactly need to be a trained federal investigator to read through the first few pages of this thread and then conclude, with a high degree of confidence, "yo, a bunch of these dudes have never been laid".
I mean, whatever, not everybody is sexually active [especially early in their lives], but reading people aghast at the way Ellie looks, like its unrealistic or something, is a hilarious, embarrassing trainwreck.
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Tesseract
Banned
doth protestesth much, brutus
DForce
NaughtyDog Defense Force
I really don't like Anita, but there are a few things that I could agree with her on - one being that female characters don't need to be overly sexualized, and the other that it would be good to see more female characters in lead roles.
The problem is that people like Anita and other SJW want to force you to change and make you put these characters into video games and movies.
There's nothing wrong with Ivy's costume showing 75% of her rack.
There's nothing worth with R-Mika
There's nothing wrong with Tracer's pose.
I think they're all good character designs.
Flintty
Member
I’m gonna go with the ‘conditioned from a young age’ thread. Whilst it’s reasonable to assume the majority of females will unlikely ever match that screenshot, I’m a believer that the body adapts over the years to what it’s being used for, especially from a young age.
I was blacksmithing from the age of 13 and have popeye forearms because of it. And muscly legs too, as a combination of carrying heavy steel and playing football (English footy). My body is what it is because is what I did when young and I’ve never really worked out much, as you would see from my beer belly. I’ve been out of physical labour for 18 years and still the same on the arms and legs. The desk job probably contributed to the belly!
I was blacksmithing from the age of 13 and have popeye forearms because of it. And muscly legs too, as a combination of carrying heavy steel and playing football (English footy). My body is what it is because is what I did when young and I’ve never really worked out much, as you would see from my beer belly. I’ve been out of physical labour for 18 years and still the same on the arms and legs. The desk job probably contributed to the belly!
Exactly. The SJWs are annoying in trying to make everything one way, and the anti-SJWs are equally annoying in trying to make everything another way. Variety is best.
Though, the anti-SJW conspiracies and frantic fear over the dumbest things are at least entertaining, so they got that going.
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
Some people here have actually gotten laid, and they can definitively tell the rest of us that they've had sex with something that looks like Conor McGregor from behind. 
mortal
Gold Member
Thanks for links btw
The Kotaku story. I don't see the issue tbh. The character of Nadine being jacked makes sense on some level If they're going to have her fight Nathan Drake in the game.
They wanted to make her look more intimidating so they made her muscular. I also don't see the issue in that boss fight. Hell, I wasn't even aware people actually took issue with it. I actually like her design as well.
If some people didn't like it that's fair, more power to them. Although this is Uncharted we're talking about here. If I can suspend my disbelief for things like Nathan getting shot in the face thousands of times and taking on literally hundreds of dudes single handedly. Scaling everything without ever getting tired or escaping getting crushed to death by falling debris time after time, after time. It would be silly for me to draw the line at a muscular woman throwing him around in a boss fight.
I wouldn't go as far as to call that play tester "sexist", but he was defiantly making a big deal out of nothing with Nadine and Nathan having a daughter. I agree with Druckmann on this one when he asks "why does that matter?"
In the Rollingstones article, Yes Neil Druckmann does mentioned that he enjoys watching Anita's videos, but he also mentioned that he disagreed with her interpretation of Elena
Even despite enjoying her opinions, it doesn't mean he nor anyone else at Naughty Dog won't also disagree with her on some things. There are many things I disagree with Anita on and the conclusions she draws in her videos. I also think she's a rather disingenuous as a person, but I digress. Although I do agree when it comes to the overuse of certain tropes in games; as I'm not a fan of the over reliance of tropes or conventional design in general. Which is why I'm looking forward to games like Death Stranding. And as someone who enjoys many types of games, I argue for why I think AAA games like that need to be made more often. There is still nuance here.
That Crafty Ape video was bit tongue in cheek with the editing, but the shot of Druckmann making reference to characters Quiet and Cortana was something I've actually ever watched. Would like to watch that event he was speaking at however. He does in fact use the term agenda in this, you are right. So you using the word wasn't just for the sake of argument. Fair enough.
RobinGaming's video is well articulated, and he makes some very fair arguments. I actually agree with him on nearly all the points he addresses.
Playing Naughty Dog games, I've never really felt that their games were pandering or were compromised by SJWs or social justice agendas.
I have a similar attitude as Robingaming does; if the personal ideology and beliefs of the creator aren't forced in at the expense of a well made game or a compelling narrative, then I have no issue.
Everything I've seen about the TLOU Part II looks very interesting to me, regardless of where Neil Druckmann's personal ideology lies. The plot and the characters are compelling to me. The gameplay looks even more engaging and intense. I take issue with some making these argument of Naughty making Ellie "ugly" on purpose, or more silly ones like "is she taking steroids" because her back has visible muscle tone which is more than achievable for a young woman of her stature without steroids. All of this without having played the game or see what it actually has to offer.
I make a deliberate choice of not following celebrities or even prominent figures in the gaming industry on social media. so I guess that's why I wasn't aware of much of Druckmann's personal views. The only exception is Kojima's Instagram, most of his posts consist of movies, photos, and screenshots lol.
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SlashBringingHasher
Banned
Not a big deal but they made her look manly for a reason they are ND. Pinnacle of PC aids. That looks like a back of a woman that's been taking testosterone. Women can grow muclse bigger than that no problem . But they wouldn't look like a guy. That's a guy
Explosive Zombie
Banned
Yeah you're pretty much on my wavelength, tbh.
Keihart
Member
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-Arcadia-
Banned
Well, I forgot about this thread hours ago, have been playing Minecraft, and yet here you still are, dredging things up. Who wants attention?
Jon Neu
Banned
I'm getting the impression that you're not aware, Shaggy, but voice and motion capture actors don't neccesarily look like the characters they are voicing or making motion capture to.
Just like Ellie, who didn't look at all like Ashley Johnson in The Last Of Us, but she was a literal Ellen Page clone. They purposedly changed the way she looks, because otherwise she would have to look like and adult Ellen Page.
S
SLoWMoTIoN
Unconfirmed Member
Like you wouldn't fuck him lolSome people here have actually gotten laid, and they can definitively tell the rest of us that they've had sex with something that looks like Conor McGregor from behind.
-Arcadia-
Banned
Some people here have actually gotten laid, and they can definitively tell the rest of us that they've had sex with something that looks like Conor McGregor from behind.
Dudes falling all over themselves to tell us that they’ve tapped something just like that, for virtue signaling points.
The 2010s sure are weird.
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
Nobody fucks Conor better than Nate Diaz. It feels criminal watching.
Jon Neu
Banned
Well, we have people like you, calling other people virgins and incels for calling out Naughty Dog's agenda. It's literally the same principle and the same childish simpleton mentality.
And then we have the people outside GAF who literally say everything I listed. Seeing the rage and ad hominems some of you already use, I'm sure more than one of you would indulge in the same insults if it wasn't because here those types of ad hominems don't fly anymore.
Exactly. This is an artificial agenda, a certain type of politics artificially being injected into cultural media for propaganda and virtue signalling.
There has been women, gays and all type of different characters in media since literally forever. And nobody cared, because we knew there wasn't some ulterior motives, some hateful and toxic ideology as to why someone put those characters there, we knew their gender or their sexuality weren't a deep political statement, just a choice.
But to call a conspiracy this obvious wave of political correctness and SJW fantasies being applied to all kinds of media, puts you at the level of naiveness of a three year old.
Jon Neu
Banned
The funny thing is that with anti-SJW and non PC we had variety, we had all kinds of characters and narratives. Videogames have been diverse since always, despite what SJW believe.
With SJW we only have one way to do things the "right way", everything outside that way is "problematic".
So if you want variety, you should fight against SJW taking control of the media narrative.
Oddvintagechap
Member
LMAO thats steroids?! My ex was more fit before she even went to west point. This needs to be ended with a “nerdz”
Tupinambis_WOT
Member
Good lord man, THAT is what you're going to try calling this thread now? "Calling out Naughty Dog's Agenda"? Because that's sure as shit not what was going on in the OP or.... the overwhelming majority of the posts following it.
DForce
NaughtyDog Defense Force
As I mentioned before, this is nothing new. This has been done throughout the past 50 years.
People wanted to see more black entertainers on TV and people pushed for it.
People wanted to see more black music on TV and radio stations and they pushed for it.
Ellie is just a character and she's gay.
There's really not too much to than that, so there shouldn't be an issue. If people want to create a character that gay people can relate to, then people are complaining for no reason.
If ND tried to force something by making political statements then that would be a cause for concern.
Back the, things were very much direct. They touched on sensitive topics and pushed a bigger narrative.
If this same type of thing was being done to day, do you think people will cry "SJW propaganda".
But lets talk about another game.
Detroit Become Human
This was criticized for being political and being "woke." and pushing a SJW propaganda.
Does that seem similar to the X-Men?
Now the civil rights movement was far greater than what we're dealing with today, but still a narrative and political issues were being mirrored in the X-Men comics.
Stan Lee didn't create the X-Men for this purpose, but he wanted to talk about it through his comics.
TLOU isn't even pushing a strong narrative and people are complaining.