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Stopped supporting Digital Foundry on Patreon. Left wondering if Patreon needs improving.

Oh well lets crucify him, and lets try and end his work then.
Maybe Microsoft gave them a bonus in that months cheque amirite?.

Straw man, my dude. I don't want to crucify anyone, when he PMed me I felt bad, having him actually reach out to me made it hurt that I criticized his work but seeing him say stuff like "maybe I'll just end it all" or whatever else made me realize he's relying on emotional manipulation and I'm not a fan of that. I don't want anyone to lose their job, end their life or get crucified over how they do Digital Foundry videos. Try and picture John came in here and just said "I thought all games were great, I wasn't pointing out flaws in God of War and Spider-Man, I was impressed!" instead of "this has really torn me apart, maybe my life ends tonight" and you get a wholly different argument and you get a chance for common ground, what his tactics are doing is working on your empathy and sympathy to override anything logical. If he can argue the logical aspect and convince me I'm open to being convinced but I'm no longer open to emotional manipulation.

E Explosive Zombie There is more to fucking life than cunting video games dude. Stop being an idiot to someone who isn't feeling so great.

See what I mean? This can't be an actual discussion because John feels bad and is suicidal. I don't feel bad, I don't feel suicidal so why am I the one who should leave the debate? John is the one who needs to get away from such arguments if they trigger him this badly, not me.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
He's arguing the points now and I'm more chill but honestly I'd rather someone kicked my dog than try and claim I was a part of the reason they ended their life or some shit. That's trying to hold me hostage.

Endgame? I don't have an endgame, my dude, I saw him using emotionally abusive language to engender support and pity while also saying KingThrash is a liar and defaming him. What he's doing with you guys is ridiculous, telling you he's too fragile so just believe any critiques of his work are false? I'm reacting, there's no plan to where the reactions go, if John wants to argue the actual arguments and not emotionally manipulate then I'm open to his explanations and to see if they satisfy.

He didn't in his Gears 5 vid, that's the whole point.

A lot of it is just the way it comes across then. To us it looked like critiques of those games, we don't see inaccurate reflections in Spider-Man and think "oh wow, what a great solution they offered." We think, wow they had to cut corners. Same with the CBR, you might be talking about how they solved issues but to most of us it's pointing out a visual flaw.

The thing is if this stuff is so innocent and you're just talking solutions and how impressive them solving it is then the same should be applied to Gears 5 right? Besides the framerate dips there isn't much of that there. That's the whole idea, it feels like it was treated differently even if you personally find all of them just as impressive.
I apologize for being so positive. I was so focused on proving myself in other ways (talking about those rendering features) that I got carried away. That’s honestly the reality. I thought I was critical enough but perhaps not. I’ll try to do better.
 
I apologize for being so positive. I was so focused on proving myself in other ways (talking about those rendering features) that I got carried away. That’s honestly the reality. I thought I was critical enough but perhaps not. I’ll try to do better.

I'm 100% not looking for you to apologize for being positive, my dude. I thought KingThrash's video was damning and all I want out of you is some of what you've given me, stuff like how you actually think Spider-Man's reflection stuff is impressive. You're shining a different light on this and making it more of a dialogue and my view is becoming more nuanced because of it. If there's something I want, it's simply that, for us to talk about the points raised by KingThrash and hear your honest reactions to them. This isn't meant to make you feel bad or get you to be self-deprecating or apologetic, this is to discuss it. You have to believe me on that.
 

Kingthrash

Member
I am the leader in nothing, honestly. I've never claimed that.

Can you actually point out where my video is incorrect? I was very positive, though, but why is that an issue? I usually am. This is a video highlighting the technical features of the game. Those are the videos I enjoy making and that's what most of them tend to be.

The plant in God of War was a point of praise, though - that it moved when you swung your axe. That was not a critique.

It was definitely defamation as accusations that are untrue were made throughout - this would be very easy to prove in a court of law if it came down to it.

What's REALLY insane to me, though, the thing I can't understand is that...it's all Sony fans that are super upset by the Gears video. Yet, if you look at my own personal collection, it's heavily weighted towards PlayStation. I mean, this isn't a fanboy situation at all. I love all these machines and games. It's very strange.

Well I'm a fan of all systems...be it playstation xbox or Nintendo.

Now my issue with your gears 5 analysis is you didn't go in depth with the game. I personally dont think an analysis is a form of critique, it's more of a test.

Thing is many people see it as a form of critique and with the console war going on people use DF videos as ammo.

The thing with you is you feel my vids are based on the war when it is not, it's based on the quality of your analysis when it comes to xbox games. They are of a lower quality...especially when you dont test the game.

You didn't mention the 30 fps during cutscenes... why?

You didn't mention 1080p on xbox one x...why?

You ignored the inconsistent lighting..why?

You ignored the bad reflections..even called them good...why?

You talked about the long distance shadows but didn't show them in game why?

You talked about light scattering through the ear and zoomed in on the ear when there was no light behind it or scattering through it why?

You used an interview with the coalition as a reference and quoted many of the things in the video even before that interview was made public making it seem like you found this stuff during the analysis...why?

The reason why I brought up the negatives is because you didn't have a negative in your analysis. if you properly analyzed them you would have seen them.
I love gears...as I'm a gears fan..
I own all consoles and will play you in any of them...so please refrain from calling me a fanboy and using that as an excuse....

Lastly...tell me where I lied in any of my videos....if you find a lie and prove it's a lie I will publically apologize for that lie and any other lie you find.

There is no need for stress, if you think you have had a hard time with these videos, let me assure you that I have as well...people are attacking me left and right....calling me out of my name, threats ...all that...but it's all good. It's ok for people to disagree...its human nature. You shouldn't let what other people think make you stressed ESPECIALLY if you believe in your work.

All in all I disagree with you....but I am open to being corrected....so correct me if there is something I got wrong. Otherwise accept the call out...make a new video with a proper DF quality level analysis....if you can.
 
Don't apologise or try to do better for anyone, John. If they don't like it they can get fucked. It's that simple.

He's right, this is a healthier attitude honestly, tell me to get fucked if you want. I'd prefer it, like I said, I'd prefer you kicked my dog than told me you're thinking of suicide. If you're really feeling this down and aren't just doing it for pity then you do have my sympathy AND my empathy as someone else who suffers from things like depression and anxiety. I will say it as loud and clear as I can, I don't want you feeling bad, I don't want you thinking suicidal thoughts, I don't want you to lose your job or anything else. I want you to discuss this stuff we're talking about but NOT if it causes you actual pain and not if you don't want to. I criticize plenty of youtube videos, I never EXPECT to get responses for it. Trust me that I'm not the one you need to please, I'm just a lonely, depressed guy who's going to argue things on the net to feel validated in some way, shape or form. I don't want to do that at the expense of someone else's mental well being, though.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
Well I'm a fan of all systems...be it playstation xbox or Nintendo.

Now my issue with your gears 5 analysis is you didn't go in depth with the game. I personally dont think an analysis is a form of critique, it's more of a test.

Thing is many people see it as a form of critique and with the console war going on people use DF videos as ammo.

The thing with you is you feel my vids are based on the war when it is not, it's based on the quality of your analysis when it comes to xbox games. They are of a lower quality...especially when you dont test the game.

You didn't mention the 30 fps during cutscenes... why?

You didn't mention 1080p on xbox one x...why?

You ignored the inconsistent lighting..why?

You ignored the bad reflections..even called them good...why?

You talked about the long distance shadows but didn't show them in game why?

You talked about light scattering through the ear and zoomed in on the ear when there was no light behind it or scattering through it why?

You used an interview with the coalition as a reference and quoted many of the things in the video even before that interview was made public making it seem like you found this stuff during the analysis...why?

The reason why I brought up the negatives is because you didn't have a negative in your analysis. if you properly analyzed them you would have seen them.
I love gears...as I'm a gears fan..
I own all consoles and will play you in any of them...so please refrain from calling me a fanboy and using that as an excuse....

Lastly...tell me where I lied in any of my videos....if you find a lie and prove it's a lie I will publically apologize for that lie and any other lie you find.

There is no need for stress, if you think you have had a hard time with these videos, let me assure you that I have as well...people are attacking me left and right....calling me out of my name, threats ...all that...but it's all good. It's ok for people to disagree...its human nature. You shouldn't let what other people think make you stressed ESPECIALLY if you believe in your work.

All in all I disagree with you....but I am open to being corrected....so correct me if there is something I got wrong. Otherwise accept the call out...make a new video with a proper DF quality level analysis....if you can.
Man, I appreciate you chiming in. I’ll hit you up later. I apologize for insulting you too - I’m just in a bad state and this whole thing really messed me up. I’m happy that you’re here as I had no idea how to get in contact.
 

Three

Member
Just to clarify, this thread isn't a generic whine that I'm looking for attention but I wanted to talk about this because I wanted to share my thoughts.

I've been reading digital foundry since perhaps the late 2000's coming up to 2010, so nearly ten years maybe? Far before this generation of consoles. Definitely before they had their YouTube page as popular as it is now. I've always enjoyed watching and learning about the technical aspects of games but also it's great to know when a developer has done a particularly good job, or if you're going to be disappointed, a particularly bad one.

Now John and the team always say like, subscribe and hit us up on Twitter or Patreon! etc. So after all these years, I thought, why not? I'd been following the channel for time, why not support them on Patreon?

See, here is the thing I wanted to talk about. I joined the Patreon membership maybe 6 months ago? With a pledge of £10. Okay, it doesn't sound like much, but at £120 a year, it's more than PlayStation Plus and a lot of other things that I pay for. I pledged more than I pay for Netflix or Amazon video and you know, I'm cool with that. I wanted to support the channel, I made a decision and I was happy with it. For a time anyway.

The thing that kept niggling at me was how barren the Patreon page is. Other subscribers were even commenting on their page how desolate it was, like it was barely updated. But this can't be right can it? John and Richard always say to message them if you have any questions about their videos or any content. So I started by sending John a tweet. Which was ignored. Then I sent the same tweet to the main Digital Foundry page. This was also ignored. So I messaged the Patreon page. I thought, know what, I'm paying for it, surely it's the best way to get a response... right? Well, I didn't.

My question wasn't even complicated. I love Digital Foundry Retro, they cover a lot of games that I loved like Tomb Raider, Soul Reaver, Power Slave (although I know it as Exhumed) and so many more. But the debate came up about why PlayStation 4 was so lacking in backwards compatibility and why PlayStation 5 would look to change it. Though the way they talked about PlayStation 4 b/c was so vague, all I wanted to know since these guys are experts, more-so John who always breaks down emulation is their thoughts on PS4 b/c and what can and can't be done. I'm not asking to re-invent the wheel. Just a simple reply would be great, or even a link to some information about the topic.

So I messaged once more and a third time and after that, I just stopped supporting them and went onto supporting the 8-bit guy, who ironically, messaged me right away to thank me for my support.

I'm happy to support the content, I do still enjoy the videos, love the content, especially the retro content but what I hate is when we advertise ourselves as open people who you can contact and engage with and you really aren't. Patreon got me nowhere and I paid for that privilege. You know? I don't really see the point in supporting these guys if they aren't like to reply. I did the exact same thing with Game Sack. They weren't very engaging and I thought a big part of Patreon was the ability to be closer to the content creators. The 8-bit guy, Kim Justice and Lotus Prince respond like within a day or two maximum. Caddicarus takes a few days. I'm not mad, disappointed maybe, I just don't see the point.

It doesn't really help when Patreon doesn't seem to curate the content creators. Facebook for example has the notification that says 'this creator typically responds in a day' etc. They don't offer ratings as to how well content creators will update and support their page. Yet some of these entities are looking at like $3000 a month+ in support alone. It kind of makes me laugh how Lotus Prince makes $278 a month and updates his page every day, replies to messages within a day can do a better job of it than Digital Foundry who by comparison, dwarf LP in terms of subscribers and financial backing.

For those of us who support gaming content creators and all the channels that ask you to consider supporting them, I have to wonder if perhaps Patreon really needs improving here or whether some people are just dicks? I can't decide. :messenger_tears_of_joy:
You've been blacklisted by DF.
 

Bogroll

Likes moldy games
Man, I appreciate you chiming in. I’ll hit you up later. I apologize for insulting you too - I’m just in a bad state and this whole thing really messed me up. I’m happy that you’re here as I had no idea how to get in contact.
Hey stay strong. The easiest thing for anyone to do is pick fault in anyone's work.
 
Man, I appreciate you chiming in. I’ll hit you up later. I apologize for insulting you too - I’m just in a bad state and this whole thing really messed me up. I’m happy that you’re here as I had no idea how to get in contact.

Get yourself good emotionally, dude. If this stuff puts you in a dark place you need to set it aside and ignore it. If you can find the light again and feel better then we'd all like to see what kind of dialogue opens up about this. I've said things I regret, too, I feel like this all got too heated/emotional when it should have just been an honest dialogue. I don't believe anyone wishes you ill will and if anything some of the critiques come from looking up to people like you, to many of us you guys are where we go to find out how well a game runs and because of these discrepancies, whether real, imagined or misunderstood it was sort of like having a crisis of faith, like if Jim Sterling endorsed a game that had MTX in it, haha. That sounds like the fault is on you, but it might not be, it might be on us for how we saw it and how we see things can be colored by our prejudices. I don't want to find out DF are Microsoft shills who need to prop up their games over PS4's, I want to find out I was wrong to ever doubt you guys but I'm unsure due to stuff I've seen, whether or not you can make me sure should only matter for me, I'm one person in a sea of people and even if I can't be convinced you've got enough support it doesn't matter. But I AM open to being convinced and if that's your goal I'd love to hear more about it, being willing to convince me at all gives you the sort of points no one else would because I've never before had to deal with someone that's a public figure I criticized in the public sphere. It's a humbling experience and makes you wish you'd been more diplomatic from the start. I'm just a Neogaf poster, and not the smartest one, you do what makes you feel better, not what I want or anyone else does.
 
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McCheese

Member
Hey D dark10x

Please don't talk about ending it all, I lost someone dear to me recently after a struggle against bowel cancer and trust me, videogames and console fanboys are nothing in the grand scheme of things. Folks love your work, tens of thousands click that little thumbs-up arrow and never say thank you, or tell you what a great job you are doing, but don't let the vocal minority make you feel worthless, those thousands would be fucking gutted if you stopped doing what you do.

I've said it a few times, but I have shit days, and seeing there is a new DF Retro is a huge pick me up, I get it buffering, go grab a cold can, and just watch someone who shares my passion for videogames entertain me. I have nobody I know "in the real world" to share my passion of retro games with at all, I try talking about shit like when I got my Super NT but my friends don't even know what the fuck I'm talking about, and don't get me started on my retro collection which I'm constantly getting into arguments with the mrs about because it "takes up too much space" - honestly, if anything I get jealous watching your videos and seeing all the space you have for CRTs etc.

Anyhow, take a break, spend time with folks you love, then get back to telling me about retro games please.

 
See...I don't get it. THOSE things were highlighted as positives. The reflections in Spider-Man are brilliant - absolutely amazing. The game was getting slammed for the puddle thing too and who was there to show them that they were wrong? I was.

Again - the plant in God of War is something I pointed out because it was awesome. It's a very cool thing and, thus, something to highlight. If I had swung an axe and nothing happened, guess what? I wouldn't have commented on it at all.

...

In both cases, those are positive things. Heck, even one of the programmers on Spider-Man recommend my video in his GDC talk!

And this is held up as an example of anti Sony bias. Fuck me.

Programmer liked what you noticed, and what you were saying. Fanboys use it to attack you.

There's a small percentage of people who will always attack you. If you can turn down the volume they have in your head you'll be happier. Easier said than done though, I know.
 

Kingthrash

Member
Hey stay strong. The easiest thing for anyone to do is pick fault in anyone's work.

This is true...its easy to pick fault...

But it's hard to tell them where and when they went wrong.

It's also hard to accept it.
I'm the type to say what's on my mind easy or hard. I saw something that bothered me and so I spoke up. I didn't think it would get as big as it did, but it did...and now things might get better....none of it would have been possible if I said nothing at all.

This is the the difference between just watching (which is easy), and taking action (which is hard).
 

Kingthrash

Member
TLW and KTG type in exactly the same way... If you know what I mean... 🤔

Hmmm...

...
Lol.... wait who's TLW? Lol
Hey I have to make sure I type like I'm writing a email at work....if I typed like I do texts or posts I'd probably make people feel insecure and get banned or something. So I'm on some writing emails at work level stuffs...no cussing no nothing......still tho.....DWYD
 

Bogroll

Likes moldy games
This is true...its easy to pick fault...

But it's hard to tell them where and when they went wrong.

It's also hard to accept it.
I'm the type to say what's on my mind easy or hard. I saw something that bothered me and so I spoke up. I didn't think it would get as big as it did, but it did...and now things might get better....none of it would have been possible if I said nothing at all.

This is the the difference between just watching (which is easy), and taking action (which is hard).
As a former Craftsman i know some people have know idea what goes into producing something and someone can just come along a pick faults in it. It's not hard.
And did you know it went down to 1080p
 

McCheese

Member
KTG, it's easy to tear people down, and it's right to call folks out sometimes so I'm not going to come here and say you shouldn't have made the video, as it had some valid points (and some stupid ones, like the "we" thing - he meant us gamers, not him and his secret love child with the developers, seriously dude). But he's clearly in a bad place right now, so now is the time to show respect. The number of vertical lines on a videogame is a tiny matter compared to someone's wellbeing. Gamers need to stick together against our natural enemy, those fucking jock youtube channels ;)

Please stand with us in sending some love to John, even you know he's made a ton of fucking good youtube content.
 

Kingthrash

Member
As a former Craftsman i know some people have know idea what goes into producing something and someone can just come along a pick faults in it. It's not hard.
And did you know it went down to 1080p

When I said it's hard...I mean it's hard for someone to tell someone how and where they went wrong...meaning it's easy to say "this is wrong" but hard to explain how and where...they just look at something and can tell its off.

I knew from the second I watched the gears 5 analysis that information was being withheld about the resolution because of the line "and the like". That kind of line is used when there is more to it that he didn't mention. I wasn't sure what the number was at the time so I didn't include that information in the first video, as I didn't have evidence. I knew it was lower because he had already mentioned 2160p and that it went down in quarters...other outlets that have the proper equipment confirmed my suspicions when they found that it went down to 1080p
 

Kingthrash

Member
KTG, it's easy to tear people down, and it's right to call folks out sometimes so I'm not going to come here and say you shouldn't have made the video, as it had some valid points (and some stupid ones, like the "we" thing - he meant us gamers, not him and his secret love child with the developers, seriously dude). But he's clearly in a bad place right now, so now is the time to show respect. The number of vertical lines on a videogame is a tiny matter compared to someone's wellbeing. Gamers need to stick together against our natural enemy, those fucking jock youtube channels ;)

Please stand with us in sending some love to John, even you know he's made a ton of fucking good youtube content.


Let me correct you on the "we" comment....when I mentioned this i wasn't saying he was a love child (😂😂 that made me laugh) I mean he was reading quotes from the interview and in the quote the coalition said we....so i feel he got too caught up in the quote and read it through without thinking of the 'we' in the quote.

As far as his health goes, I'm a gamer who wants what best for gaming and other gamers....so of course I dont want him to harm himself....ESPECIALLY over gaming. Gaming is supposed to be the relief of stress, not the cause. I will speak to him in private about it..where I come from..in my culture, strength is key, i deal with all kinds of stuff all day every day from everyone....after I talk with him I'm sure he will come out stronger than before.
 

Bogroll

Likes moldy games
When I said it's hard...I mean it's hard for someone to tell someone how and where they went wrong...meaning it's easy to say "this is wrong" but hard to explain how and where...they just look at something and can tell its off.

I knew from the second I watched the gears 5 analysis that information was being withheld about the resolution because of the line "and the like". That kind of line is used when there is more to it that he didn't mention. I wasn't sure what the number was at the time so I didn't include that information in the first video, as I didn't have evidence. I knew it was lower because he had already mentioned 2160p and that it went down in quarters...other outlets that have the proper equipment confirmed my suspicions when they found that it went down to 1080p
Yeah ok cool, got wires crossed i just went off "taking action"
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
I think you're misunderstanding the purpose of the video but I understand. I was very focused on showing interesting visual features over anything else as I didn't view this to be console-war fodder. It was meant to educate.

I look for details that catch my eye combined with research via white papers, GDC presentations and developer interviews that we conduct. This is how anyone covering these topics should approach it as it's how you learn about the techniques on display.

The thing that I'm a little confused on, though, is how you took what I said about God of War and the like and seemed to interpret those things as negatives. Like - light shining through the trees is a feature (sub-surface scattering simulation on leaves), pots breaking in the direction of a swing is a really impressive feature as is the grass. That stuff is super cool and it was highlighted because of that. It was not a critique - which I kinda feel like you were thinking it was? Is that right? It's the same when referencing any other game there like Spider-Man.

The reality is - overall, God of War and Spider-Man are two of my favorite games of the generation and two of the best looking. I think they're both better than Gears 5 and I loved Gears 5.

The Spider-Man video, in fact, was super focused on 'puddle-gate' at the time where people were basically claiming that Insomniac had massively downgraded the game. So I went into great detail showcasing exactly what's going on and why it's not really a downgrade at all. It was an art change. I had a lot of Xbox fans coming after me for that, unfortunately, even though it was very accurate.

Also - you bring up Rise of the Tomb Raider. Why? I praised the heck out of that - it was an amazing showcase of what checkerboard rendering can do. It's like you've ignored the fact that I've been CHAMPIONING checkerboarding when done right for years. It's an amazing technique. The only reason to stop and zoom in on it is to demonstrate what's going on there. Rise of the Tomb Raider is an exceptional example of this, though. Its PS4 Pro version was of great quality.

Some other critiques -at one point in the video you stopped and said "You see what I mean, it's like a presentation" and you know what? That's EXACTLY what it is! That's what I'm trying to do. It is designed to be a presentation of rendering techniques. I've been doing this exact kind of video for ages now but my real inspiration was the video Alex did on Metro Exodus - it was super well done and it inspired me to move in that direction.

So lemme answer some of these.

1) You ignored the bad reflections..even called them good...why?

In your video, you cut to God of War, yes? Let me explain the difference here. The screen-space reflections in God of War are totally fine - the issue is that many areas rely exclusively on cube maps. This is what I was pointing out. Most games these days combine SSR with cube-maps, right? The idea is that screen-space information is used to create the reflection (which is very accurate) and the cube-map (which is a pre-calculated texture wrapped into a cube) is completely static. So that area in God of War after the pillars uses a static cube-map only - they disabled SSR. As a result, the reflections themselves are not interactive - they don't exhibit any motion from dynamic objects. If a character runs over the floor, you don't see that character. Right? The thing is - God of War *HAS* SSR and it looks good when it's used so it's slightly odd that some scenes relied on lower-res cube-maps instead.

What Gears 5 does, however, is rely very heavily on SSR - which means reflections are dynamic. Like every game with SSR, there are artefacts - showing information head on doesn't work especially well since the front of your character isn't in screen-space, right? As in, it's not visible, hence those Gears mirrors are bizarre but most of the reflections across the floor use SSR + cube-maps and their SSR is of good quality, actually. I don't see the issue here.

What makes Spider-Man so impressive in this regard is how it combines dynamically changing cube-maps with SSR. This is why the buildings are so cool. The reason you can't display reflections in Spider-Man that are real-time (without ray tracing) is that the city behind you is NOT in screen space. Screen space only includes literally that - objects within the bounds of your viewable window. So, to combat this, they change cube-maps based on height. The quality of the cube-maps are also very high - they're sharp and detailed and really give the impression of real reflections. SSR is layered on top to give dynamic objects some reflection as well.

2) You ignored the inconsistent lighting..why?

I'm not entirely sure what this is referring to. Can you clarify? The lighting is superb - it handles direct and indirect illumination beautifully which is a strength of Unreal Engine 4. What is your issue with the lighting?

3) You talked about the long distance shadows but didn't show them in game why?

I did? The scene in the snow - all shadows at a distance (trees in the background) are generated using SDFs. We're seeing more SDFs used in modern games such as Control (which uses SDF for non-SSR reflections) or in really insane stuff such as Claybook or Nex Machina. SDFs are, at their core, a mathematical function and the results can be used to calculate a lot of things saving on resources. This is something they mentioned in the interview, which is the same with Control, which I thought was neat from an engineering standpoint hence why I explained what it is. You can do this on all the consoles including Switch - so I don't get the issue. The big problem, I guess, is that with motion blur enabled, if you don't know what to look for, it's tough to see. This is why I used diagrams - stuff from Unreal documentation, in fact. The reason? That is the implementation they are using. Again - it's just information for you to better understand the techniques in use.

4) You talked about light scattering through the ear and zoomed in on the ear when there was no light behind it or scattering through it why?

Err, there was though. I think I may have caused confusion, however, by the Unreal footage. I setup a demo space using a pre-built Unreal Digital Human character model and added a bunch of high intensity point lights behind his head to accentuate the effect. That it looks more subdued in the Gears shot doesn't mean it's not there.

This shot demonstrates what disabling SSSS looks like - it's about how light moves across and THROUGH the skin and it's plain as day in the game. I mean, it's a feature that has been used throughout this generation. Your ear doesn't glow unless you literally shove a spot-light behind it.

wiHd.jpg



5) You didn't mention the 30 fps during cutscenes... why?

Yes, you're right - I don't usually measure cut-scene frame-rates. I apologize for this. Is this really an issue? This seems like a random 'gotcha' as it's extremely obvious that cutscenes are 30fps. Like in many other games, cutscene quality is ramped up and, thus, the frame-rate would likely be unstable as Xbox One X wouldn't be able to render them at a locked 60 and they'd probably have tearing like the gameplay which would be bad for cinematic segments. If I had known this was going to be used as console war bait, I would have mentioned it and I'll be happy to do so going forward if you like.

6) You didn't mention 1080p on xbox one x...why?

Have you pixel counted before? I only ask because it IS a very challenging thing to do when faced with dynamic resolutions and aggressive temporal anti-aliasing - I've admitted many times that this is not my specialty. I apologize for that, you can insult my skills on this all day but that's all it is. This is specifically why I phrased it as I did - to basically indicate that it is highly variable. I provided the resolutions that I found.

7) You used an interview with the coalition as a reference and quoted many of the things in the video even before that interview was made public making it seem like you found this stuff during the analysis...why?

Yes, of course. We've done this many times. These were OUR questions which we sent off to them - that was the whole point. We've done this many times when developers are willing to - and they often are. You combine that with additional research using white papers and GDC talks.

So then, the big issues I have with the video you made stem from 1) misinterpreting bits from other videos I made as being somehow negative when they were not 2) misinterpreting things such as optimization - you joke about the smoke cloud - and say "You call this optimization?" but...that's exactly what optimization is! You find ways to reduce the complexity of certain features to improve performance - every developer does this. Some do it better than others. 3) Misunderstanding the use of the word 'we' - my friend, that is a common usage of the word - "Here we have this interesting specimen" or "...and over here, we have this remarkable piece of art". It's suggesting that we, as the collective user base, are benefiting from the thing in question. It is not used to indicate ownership and it was not a quote. You misinterpreted it, man, and I use that phrasing all the time.

Looking back, I DO think I was maybe over enthusiastic and a lot of that comes down to the production time - it takes a long time to edit, write, research, interview and capture for a project like this. It was my honest opinion as always.

The main thing I missed is the lack of interactivity on things - and I wish I could go back and discuss that. This is where games like God of War vastly exceed Gears 5 - that's why those details were in the God of War video, because I noticed them and they were impressive.

No matter how you feel about it, though, the video was made the same way as it's always made. I don't work in an office - we're a very small team. I'm just a guy working out of his house and, yeah, I don't have a lot of confidence these days as is. I did the best I could to deliver an interesting, educational video but clearly it wasn't good enough. For the next 'big' game, I'm going to push myself to the limits to do even better - that'll probably be Death Stranding which is pretty much my first or second most anticipated game (about tied with Doom Eternal).

As always - if there is something that is truly not clear, I can go into additional detail. If you're missing something, just ask!
 
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The main thing I missed is the lack of interactivity on things - and I wish I could go back and discuss that. This is where games like God of War vastly exceed Gears 5 - that's why those details were in the God of War video, because I noticed them and they were impressive.

Interestingly, there was at least one area that did incorporate stuff you could shoot, but this felt like a deliberate setup to have things where you might shoot them. It's seems that the default was to bake props in for performance reasons, and that exceptions were made at the level designers discretion. Meanwhile, there was lots of destructible cover!

Next gen and Zen2 can't come soon enough.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
Now I feel bad for John having to spend hours testing out the urine physics :(
Well, I suspect Death Stranding WILL be packed with insane detail like most Kojima directed projects so...yeah...that's gonna have to happen. :X

Interestingly, there was at least one area that did incorporate stuff you could shoot, but this felt like a deliberate setup to have things where you might shoot them. It's seems that the default was to bake props in for performance reasons, and that exceptions were made at the level designers discretion. Meanwhile, there was lots of destructible cover!

Next gen and Zen2 can't come soon enough.
Yeah, that reminded me of Killzone 2, actually, where certain bits of cover break apart. I *REALLY* liked the breakable ice. I mean...that was actually really interesting, right?
 
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LostDonkey

Member
Lol.... wait who's TLW? Lol
Hey I have to make sure I type like I'm writing a email at work....if I typed like I do texts or posts I'd probably make people feel insecure and get banned or something. So I'm on some writing emails at work level stuffs...no cussing no nothing......still tho.....DWYD

TLW= TheLastWord.

A user here who types in an incredibly similar way to yourself and who just so happened to, conveniently or not, bring your existence to the attention of GAF in the first place.
 
Well, I suspect Death Stranding WILL be packed with insane detail like most Kojima directed projects so...yeah...that's gonna have to happen. :X


Yeah, that reminded me of Killzone 2, actually, where certain bits of cover break apart. I *REALLY* liked the breakable ice. I mean...that was actually really interesting, right?

Best thing with the ice breaking was making my co-op friend fall in all the time. Interesting read up above, btw, someone with that much insight on this stuff is what we need, try not to let the internet get you down, even ME!
 
Yeah, that reminded me of Killzone 2, actually, where certain bits of cover break apart. I *REALLY* liked the breakable ice. I mean...that was actually really interesting, right?

Yep. Good integration of the environmental concepts, and the cover and destruction systems!

Shooting holes into the ice so enemies fell in and died was really cool. As was the way the ice quickly reformed. (Not quite so cool if you bounced a frag back at your own feet, heh :messenger_unamused: )

In contrast to this stuff, the lack of environmental destruction in other areas really did feel like someone made the decision that they were running for speed, and increased interactivity was a carefully balanced decision.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
Yep. Good integration of the environmental concepts, and the cover and destruction systems!

Shooting holes into the ice so enemies fell in and died was really cool. As was the way the ice quickly reformed. (Not quite so cool if you bounced a frag back at your own feet, heh :messenger_unamused: )

In contrast to this stuff, the lack of environmental destruction in other areas really did feel like someone made the decision that they were running for speed, and increased interactivity was a carefully balanced decision.
Yeah, if I were to discuss that, I would say that they strategically utilized it where it makes sense (around combat areas) but kept it to a minimum elsewhere due to CPU cost. The consoles this generation are very weak on the CPU side but Pro and X are strong on GPU in comparison - so interactivity, especially when aiming for 60fps, is kept to a minimum. That's one area I hope we see major improvements next gen.
 
Yep. Good integration of the environmental concepts, and the cover and destruction systems!

Shooting holes into the ice so enemies fell in and died was really cool. As was the way the ice quickly reformed. (Not quite so cool if you bounced a frag back at your own feet, heh :messenger_unamused: )

In contrast to this stuff, the lack of environmental destruction in other areas really did feel like someone made the decision that they were running for speed, and increased interactivity was a carefully balanced decision.

Yeah, for me that was the thing, when you realize you can shoot ice so enemies fall in you start asking "what else can I do?" and you kinda end up disappointed. I think it is what it is, though until we get to next gen with beefy SSDs and such.
 
TLW gets banned, this guy appears, and just so happens to not only share his exact view points but also types exactly like him in a way I’ve never, ever seen.

*grabs tin foil hat*

So, now would be a bad time to mention that I used to post on Rotten Tomatoes video game forums from about 2007-2012 and back then I used to use... instead of other punctuation a lot and... it really annoyed some people... but I've grown out of it? :messenger_beaming:
 

Bogroll

Likes moldy games
TLW gets banned, this guy appears, and just so happens to not only share his exact view points but also types exactly like him in a way I’ve never, ever seen.

*grabs tin foil hat*
No KTG seems like he has a heart.
 

Kingthrash

Member
TLW= TheLastWord.

A user here who types in an incredibly similar way to yourself and who just so happened to, conveniently or not, bring your existence to the attention of GAF in the first place.
😂😂😂😭😭😭 awe snap so the conspiracy is I am him? Lol😂😂😂😂 classic lol...
 

Scopa

The Tribe Has Spoken
I should just close this account and all my accounts, honestly. This year has been the fucking worst. I was this close to just ending it earlier this year and people like that are pushing me right back there. I should never have taken this job. I'm a piece of shit and deserve to die. Maybe I will tonight. I don't know. It seems that those assholes would love it. They would celebrate.
Dude. You should never take the internet that seriously. If you put yourself out there on it, you will always attract arseholes. Doesn’t matter if you did anything wrong or not. Arseholes on the internet are like flies on shit.

Not sure what your issues are, but you mention chronic pain. I too suffer from it. I have a permanent back injury, sciatica and destroyed knees. It sucks sometimes, but I always, always remember that there are people out there much worse off than me and if they can get by, then who am I to complain?

Just take it easy. If someone gives you shit on the internet, just learn to laugh at it. Never take them seriously. It’s the internet, it’s not real life. It ain’t worth hating yourself, getting depressed over it or harming yourself because of it.

Also, I hope you have someone irl you can talk to. If not, feel free to hit me up or any of the wonderful Gaffers here if you want to get anything off your chest.
 

Kingthrash

Member
I think you're misunderstanding the purpose of the video but I understand. I was very focused on showing interesting visual features over anything else as I didn't view this to be console-war fodder. It was meant to educate.

I look for details that catch my eye combined with research via white papers, GDC presentations and developer interviews that we conduct. This is how anyone covering these topics should approach it as it's how you learn about the techniques on display.

The thing that I'm a little confused on, though, is how you took what I said about God of War and the like and seemed to interpret those things as negatives. Like - light shining through the trees is a feature (sub-surface scattering simulation on leaves), pots breaking in the direction of a swing is a really impressive feature as is the grass. That stuff is super cool and it was highlighted because of that. It was not a critique - which I kinda feel like you were thinking it was? Is that right? It's the same when referencing any other game there like Spider-Man.

The reality is - overall, God of War and Spider-Man are two of my favorite games of the generation and two of the best looking. I think they're both better than Gears 5 and I loved Gears 5.

The Spider-Man video, in fact, was super focused on 'puddle-gate' at the time where people were basically claiming that Insomniac had massively downgraded the game. So I went into great detail showcasing exactly what's going on and why it's not really a downgrade at all. It was an art change. I had a lot of Xbox fans coming after me for that, unfortunately, even though it was very accurate.

Also - you bring up Rise of the Tomb Raider. Why? I praised the heck out of that - it was an amazing showcase of what checkerboard rendering can do. It's like you've ignored the fact that I've been CHAMPIONING checkerboarding when done right for years. It's an amazing technique. The only reason to stop and zoom in on it is to demonstrate what's going on there. Rise of the Tomb Raider is an exceptional example of this, though. Its PS4 Pro version was of great quality.

Some other critiques -at one point in the video you stopped and said "You see what I mean, it's like a presentation" and you know what? That's EXACTLY what it is! That's what I'm trying to do. It is designed to be a presentation of rendering techniques. I've been doing this exact kind of video for ages now but my real inspiration was the video Alex did on Metro Exodus - it was super well done and it inspired me to move in that direction.

So lemme answer some of these.

1) You ignored the bad reflections..even called them good...why?

In your video, you cut to God of War, yes? Let me explain the difference here. The screen-space reflections in God of War are totally fine - the issue is that many areas rely exclusively on cube maps. This is what I was pointing out. Most games these days combine SSR with cube-maps, right? The idea is that screen-space information is used to create the reflection (which is very accurate) and the cube-map (which is a pre-calculated texture wrapped into a cube) is completely static. So that area in God of War after the pillars uses a static cube-map only - they disabled SSR. As a result, the reflections themselves are not interactive - they don't exhibit any motion from dynamic objects. If a character runs over the floor, you don't see that character. Right? The thing is - God of War *HAS* SSR and it looks good when it's used so it's slightly odd that some scenes relied on lower-res cube-maps instead.

What Gears 5 does, however, is rely very heavily on SSR - which means reflections are dynamic. Like every game with SSR, there are artefacts - showing information head on doesn't work especially well since the front of your character isn't in screen-space, right? As in, it's not visible, hence those Gears mirrors are bizarre but most of the reflections across the floor use SSR + cube-maps and their SSR is of good quality, actually. I don't see the issue here.

What makes Spider-Man so impressive in this regard is how it combines dynamically changing cube-maps with SSR. This is why the buildings are so cool. The reason you can't display reflections in Spider-Man that are real-time (without ray tracing) is that the city behind you is NOT in screen space. Screen space only includes literally that - objects within the bounds of your viewable window. So, to combat this, they change cube-maps based on height. The quality of the cube-maps are also very high - they're sharp and detailed and really give the impression of real reflections. SSR is layered on top to give dynamic objects some reflection as well.

2) You ignored the inconsistent lighting..why?

I'm not entirely sure what this is referring to. Can you clarify? The lighting is superb - it handles direct and indirect illumination beautifully which is a strength of Unreal Engine 4. What is your issue with the lighting?

3) You talked about the long distance shadows but didn't show them in game why?

I did? The scene in the snow - all shadows at a distance (trees in the background) are generated using SDFs. We're seeing more SDFs used in modern games such as Control (which uses SDF for non-SSR reflections) or in really insane stuff such as Claybook or Nex Machina. SDFs are, at their core, a mathematical function and the results can be used to calculate a lot of things saving on resources. This is something they mentioned in the interview, which is the same with Control, which I thought was neat from an engineering standpoint hence why I explained what it is. You can do this on all the consoles including Switch - so I don't get the issue. The big problem, I guess, is that with motion blur enabled, if you don't know what to look for, it's tough to see. This is why I used diagrams - stuff from Unreal documentation, in fact. The reason? That is the implementation they are using. Again - it's just information for you to better understand the techniques in use.

4) You talked about light scattering through the ear and zoomed in on the ear when there was no light behind it or scattering through it why?

Err, there was though. I think I may have caused confusion, however, by the Unreal footage. I setup a demo space using a pre-built Unreal Digital Human character model and added a bunch of high intensity point lights behind his head to accentuate the effect. That it looks more subdued in the Gears shot doesn't mean it's not there.

This shot demonstrates what disabling SSSS looks like - it's about how light moves across and THROUGH the skin and it's plain as day in the game. I mean, it's a feature that has been used throughout this generation. Your ear doesn't glow unless you literally shove a spot-light behind it.

wiHd.jpg



5) You didn't mention the 30 fps during cutscenes... why?

Yes, you're right - I don't usually measure cut-scene frame-rates. I apologize for this. Is this really an issue? This seems like a random 'gotcha' as it's extremely obvious that cutscenes are 30fps. Like in many other games, cutscene quality is ramped up and, thus, the frame-rate would likely be unstable as Xbox One X wouldn't be able to render them at a locked 60 and they'd probably have tearing like the gameplay which would be bad for cinematic segments. If I had known this was going to be used as console war bait, I would have mentioned it and I'll be happy to do so going forward if you like.

6) You didn't mention 1080p on xbox one x...why?

Have you pixel counted before? I only ask because it IS a very challenging thing to do when faced with dynamic resolutions and aggressive temporal anti-aliasing - I've admitted many times that this is not my specialty. I apologize for that, you can insult my skills on this all day but that's all it is. This is specifically why I phrased it as I did - to basically indicate that it is highly variable. I provided the resolutions that I found.

7) You used an interview with the coalition as a reference and quoted many of the things in the video even before that interview was made public making it seem like you found this stuff during the analysis...why?

Yes, of course. We've done this many times. These were OUR questions which we sent off to them - that was the whole point. We've done this many times when developers are willing to - and they often are. You combine that with additional research using white papers and GDC talks.

So then, the big issues I have with the video you made stem from 1) misinterpreting bits from other videos I made as being somehow negative when they were not 2) misinterpreting things such as optimization - you joke about the smoke cloud - and say "You call this optimization?" but...that's exactly what optimization is! You find ways to reduce the complexity of certain features to improve performance - every developer does this. Some do it better than others. 3) Misunderstanding the use of the word 'we' - my friend, that is a common usage of the word - "Here we have this interesting specimen" or "...and over here, we have this remarkable piece of art". It's suggesting that we, as the collective user base, are benefiting from the thing in question. It is not used to indicate ownership and it was not a quote. You misinterpreted it, man, and I use that phrasing all the time.

Looking back, I DO think I was maybe over enthusiastic and a lot of that comes down to the production time - it takes a long time to edit, write, research, interview and capture for a project like this. It was my honest opinion as always.

The main thing I missed is the lack of interactivity on things - and I wish I could go back and discuss that. This is where games like God of War vastly exceed Gears 5 - that's why those details were in the God of War video, because I noticed them and they were impressive.

No matter how you feel about it, though, the video was made the same way as it's always made. I don't work in an office - we're a very small team. I'm just a guy working out of his house and, yeah, I don't have a lot of confidence these days as is. I did the best I could to deliver an interesting, educational video but clearly it wasn't good enough. For the next 'big' game, I'm going to push myself to the limits to do even better - that'll probably be Death Stranding which is pretty much my first or second most anticipated game (about tied with Doom Eternal).

As always - if there is something that is truly not clear, I can go into additional detail. If you're missing something, just ask!
Daaamm....ok now let me clarify


I didn't take the gow barrel breaking as a negative in fact I take it as a positive and feel that's what you SHOULD DO. People criticized me saying I got too nitpicky by shooting cups and apples and testing foliage physics. so I showed you breaking barrels and talking about blades of grass.
The point of it was to show that you actually do look and test the small stuff...the small stuff not shown tested in your gears video.

I brought up tomb raider because you used it as a point of reference to compare gow, but didn't compare gears 5 to anything.

1. The reflections was less on the tech and more on the comparison. You pointed out the flaw in gow, which I have absolutely no problem with....but in the gears video you said it looks good...you spent no more than 30 seconds on the reflections. Not much time analyzing them at all....not even to look for a flaw but to give us more information on it. I think since you had an interview with the coalition it effected the quality of your test. You knew the answers already and made it seem like you half assed that part....imo at least. In spiderman you didn't have the answers already and so you spent alot of time testing and analyzing them making for a great more fulfilling analysis.

2.. the lighting is very inconsistent in gears...if you look at my first DF video I show a section where there are two showroom mirrors next to each other both have the same lights but only one has a light effect activated...this happen throughout the game. I even came across a light on the floor where the light did not illuminate me in any way even though the room was dark...this was a easy find. I found most of them accidentally. Again I chalk this up to you coming into the analysis already knowing the information from the coalition.

3. the long distance shadows
Digital Foundry is known for zooming in to show the tech at work(or lack thereof) when you spoke on the shadows you showed pics of demonstrations instead of simply zooming in and showing it off in game! That baffled the hell out of me....like why use demo photos when you are playing the actual game?

4. I agree, their might be that feature in the game....but that picture you zoomed in on did not display any light shining through the ear...in fact the next scene kind of did and that should have been the pic you zoomed in on.....or just simply stand in from of a light in game and zoom....if that effect shows during gameplay then it will be present...if not then it's a feature only available in cutscenes.

5. I remember you or at least someone on DF pointing out the fps during cutscenes...it would be nice if that stays in the analysis...but it's your show, do what you will.

6. No I have never pixel counted but I can imagine the difficulty. But sacrifice is needed to stay on top....when you have smaller analysis channels finding the stuff you missed it tarnishes the quality of your analysis.


Lastly....I think it's cool that you talk to these companies and bring out interviews....but I believe that stops you from truly testing these games in your analysis.....it ultimately damaged the quality or your gears 5 analysis.
Now knowing that you get alot of your analysis information from the developers kind of makes it seems like your analysis are not as impactful. But still, right now you guys have the most respected channel that you worked hard to get.....I just hope it stays on top.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
Daaamm....ok now let me clarify


I didn't take the gow barrel breaking as a negative in fact I take it as a positive and feel that's what you SHOULD DO. People criticized me saying I got too nitpicky by shooting cups and apples and testing foliage physics. so I showed you breaking barrels and talking about blades of grass.
The point of it was to show that you actually do look and test the small stuff...the small stuff not shown tested in your gears video.

I brought up tomb raider because you used it as a point of reference to compare gow, but didn't compare gears 5 to anything.

1. The reflections was less on the tech and more on the comparison. You pointed out the flaw in gow, which I have absolutely no problem with....but in the gears video you said it looks good...you spent no more than 30 seconds on the reflections. Not much time analyzing them at all....not even to look for a flaw but to give us more information on it. I think since you had an interview with the coalition it effected the quality of your test. You knew the answers already and made it seem like you half assed that part....imo at least. In spiderman you didn't have the answers already and so you spent alot of time testing and analyzing them making for a great more fulfilling analysis.

2.. the lighting is very inconsistent in gears...if you look at my first DF video I show a section where there are two showroom mirrors next to each other both have the same lights but only one has a light effect activated...this happen throughout the game. I even came across a light on the floor where the light did not illuminate me in any way even though the room was dark...this was a easy find. I found most of them accidentally. Again I chalk this up to you coming into the analysis already knowing the information from the coalition.

3. the long distance shadows
Digital Foundry is known for zooming in to show the tech at work(or lack thereof) when you spoke on the shadows you showed pics of demonstrations instead of simply zooming in and showing it off in game! That baffled the hell out of me....like why use demo photos when you are playing the actual game?

4. I agree, their might be that feature in the game....but that picture you zoomed in on did not display any light shining through the ear...in fact the next scene kind of did and that should have been the pic you zoomed in on.....or just simply stand in from of a light in game and zoom....if that effect shows during gameplay then it will be present...if not then it's a feature only available in cutscenes.

5. I remember you or at least someone on DF pointing out the fps during cutscenes...it would be nice if that stays in the analysis...but it's your show, do what you will.

6. No I have never pixel counted but I can imagine the difficulty. But sacrifice is needed to stay on top....when you have smaller analysis channels finding the stuff you missed it tarnishes the quality of your analysis.


Lastly....I think it's cool that you talk to these companies and bring out interviews....but I believe that stops you from truly testing these games in your analysis.....it ultimately damaged the quality or your gears 5 analysis.
Now knowing that you get alot of your analysis information from the developers kind of makes it seems like your analysis are not as impactful. But still, right now you guys have the most respected channel that you worked hard to get.....I just hope it stays on top.
That’s cool man. You at least see where I’m coming from, though. I guess it really comes down to time. Like...I had three weeks with God of War whereas I had like 3-4 days with Gears and couldn’t do as much as I wanted as a result.

We mentioned this once before but did you know that the initial review builds of God of War had severe frame pacing and tearing issues? I managed to get in touch with Sony about it and shared my findings. They were able to solve the issue and everything was great by launch. I did have access to those guys and did receive answers on some other questions which was great.

I think maybe I’ve just been too positive as of late. It was the same with Link’s Awakening, I suppose, where I wasn’t as harsh as I could have been. I’ll think about that...it’s just how I’ve been feeling as of late.

Anyways, I’m glad we could share this stuff and talk it out and I appreciate you being cool about it.
 

Shifty

Member
Interesting, how unexpected. See what happens when people talk instead of dropping diss tracks?

TLW gets banned, this guy appears, and just so happens to not only share his exact view points but also types exactly like him in a way I’ve never, ever seen.

*grabs tin foil hat*
Have you ever seen the two of them in the same thread at the same time?

Give it 11 days and maybe we'll find out.

giphy.gif
 

TUROK

Member
All this because some dude was upset he wasn't getting the royal treatment for being a DF patron, and because some other dude was upset that Gears 5 wasn't "criticized" as much as some PS4 exclusives.

Just lmao

Gamers are too much.
 
Hi John just popped in here to tell you that you and the other guys at DF make great stuff.

Don't worry about all of those Playstation or XBOX "fanboys"

Most of them are still children who just don't know any better.

None of them hate or despise you.
 

Kingthrash

Member
All this because some dude was upset he wasn't getting the royal treatment for being a DF patron, and because some other dude was upset that Gears 5 wasn't "criticized" as much as some PS4 exclusives.

Just lmao

Gamers are too

What's a turbonerd?
 
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