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[ksdixon]

Aww man, I like the ps4 ui

 

[nowhat]

For me the speaker was a great and welcomed addition: surprised at how high quality it was actually.

When I got my OG PS4, I had forgot the controller having a speaker. Downloaded Resogun. The first time I heard "multiplier up" coming from my hands I almost threw away the controller because it was so surprising (and by default the volume is too high IMHO).

But yeah, all in all, I think it's a fairly harmless feature. Some gqmes make good use of it (like having the cell phone calls play from there in GTA V), others ignore it which is fine too. The hardware cost is probably minimal, so why not have it there.

 

[FranXico]

Microsoft did it two years ago and pioneered the concept of intelligent delivery...

Intelligent delivery in 2013

 

[Freeman76]

Surprise surprise lol! I cant believe i am not going to grab PS5 at launch, but start next gen with xbox. I really admire how Phil has turned it around, I went totally anti MS after that E3 bullshit, and now invested in an X and use it 3 times more than my PS4. I will invest in a PS5 a year or so in and over indulge in all the guaranteed classic exclusives they will have available by then, win win. Everyone looks to sony as market leaders but MS have smashed it with premium console and gamepass service imo

 

[TheContact]

Aren’t those fans just going to be blowing hot air into each other

 

[ethomaz]

Again, where does he say that he is using DEDICATED ray tracing hardware cores? No where. Why? Because they don’t. They just use the GPU. Hence „accelerated“ by the GPU, and not dedicated hardware cores for ray tracing.
Every GPU could do ray tracing. Doesn’t mean anything.

The trick is to have DEDICATED ray tracing hardware core!l, which the next Xbox WILL do, whereas the PS5 Will NOT do.

You know RT Cores are just hardware acceleration in GPU lol

You seems to have no ideia about that... what they call dedicated RT cores are a small part of the silicon that accelerate some ray-tracing critical path.

There is no difference between the narrative you are trying to create.

 

[daninthemix]

I'll be interested to see if they can do decent ray tracing with console hardware, particularly at 4k. We know that the number of rays increases according to the number of pixels, and at 4k ray tracing basically isn't viable on a 2080Ti. And PS5 will not equal a 2080Ti.

 

[cireza]

Game installation is mandatory, but is a bit different than game installation on PlayStation 4. Installation and removal is a more configurable process. “Rather than treating games like a big block of data,” Cerny said, “we’re allowing finer-grained access to the data.” For example, you may be able to install just a game’s multiplayer campaign, and leave the single-player campaign for later. Or install the whole thing and delete the single-player campaign when you have finished.

This will be quite handy for games like the Last of Us 2.

 

[ethomaz]

Hardware acceleration definition.

"In computing, hardware acceleration is the use of computer hardware specially made to perform some functions more efficiently than is possible in software running on a general-purpose CPU."

For these the doesn't know specially made is another words for dedicated.

 

[Negotiator]

Not a waste of silicon and they can be effective at reducing power consumption while delivering RT in real-time (look at the PVR RT pdf I posted earlier in this thread, all sorts of neat power efficiency savings ). With that said, I could flip the question and ask how do you feel about Universal Shader units vs split VS + PS ones?

There will be a day where maybe adding some smaller extensions to the shader cores and TMU’s (our GPU memory units ) will actually provide say 70-80% of the speed advantage... without being limited to a specific algorithm / acceleration structure and being flexible to reuse the shader units for other tasks.

If you could achieve that and have programmable shaders pure FP throughout 40-50% higher than a solution with lots of dedicated less reusable RT cores (your new solution would have such enhanced Shaders and TMU’s) and you still beat such solution at pure RT rendering by 10-15%, why would you do that?

Good question. I remember nVidia (David Kirk) used to defend the discrete PS/VS setup back in the day:

Question: Are GPU architectures and Direct3D evolving toward a design where the distinction between vertex and pixel shaders essentially goes away?—davesalvator

David Kirk: For hardware architecture, I think that's an implementation detail, not a feature.

For sure, the distinction between the programming models and instruction sets of vertex shaders and pixel shaders should go away. It would be soooo nice for developers to be able to program to a single instruction set for both.

As to whether the architectures for vertex and pixel processors should be the same, it's a good question, and time will tell the answer. It's not clear to me that an architecture for a good, efficient, and fast vertex shader is the same as the architecture for a good and fast pixel shader. A pixel shader would need far, far more texture math performance and read bandwidth than an optimized vertex shader. So, if you used that pixel shader to do vertex shading, most of the hardware would be idle, most of the time. Which is better—a lean and mean optimized vertex shader and a lean and mean optimized pixel shader or two less-efficient hybrid shaders? There is an old saying: "Jack of all trades, master of none."

nVidia Guru David Kirk Answers Your Questions

You've Got Questions. He's Got Answers. ExtremeTech readers ask tough questions of nVidia's chief scientist, David Kirk. We get you the answers straight from the source on topics ranging from GeForce 6800 to high-definition rendering and more.

uk.pcmag.com

And then came CUDA & G80, where it was a necessary evil to unify them, since you need FP32 (vertex shaders always had it) for compute shaders and pixel shaders were only FP16/FP24 back then, so they may as well unify them.

Sometimes I'm left wondering how a modern GPU with modern lithography (7-14nm) would perform with old paradigms (such as discrete pipelines and/or VLIW vs RISC). I know there are trade-offs (compiler complexity vs chip complexity), but still...

PowerVR's take on RT seems interesting, but who knows if AMD/Sony/MS are willing to license PowerVR's IP.

Last but not least, here's an interesting analysis about nVidia's RT implementation in regards to transistor budget:

 

[Bryank75]

Hardware acceleration definition.

"In computing, hardware acceleration is the use of computer hardware specially made to perform some functions more efficiently than is possible in software running on a general-purpose CPU."

For these the doesn't know specially made is another words for dedicated.

Yeah, I think Cerny gave people too much credit.... he actually thought Xbox fans might have a brain or at least integrity.
What he said was straightforward... Software-based Raytracing would use the existing architecture (CPU / GPU). Hardware-based is exactly what you described...

More denial from that crowd. All they know these days.

 

[Stiflers Mom]

Surprise surprise lol! I cant believe i am not going to grab PS5 at launch, but start next gen with xbox. I really admire how Phil has turned it around, I went totally anti MS after that E3 bullshit, and now invested in an X and use it 3 times more than my PS4. I will invest in a PS5 a year or so in and over indulge in all the guaranteed classic exclusives they will have available by then, win win. Everyone looks to sony as market leaders but MS have smashed it with premium console and gamepass service imo

I am waiting for what kind of games will be announced..
MS bought all those kind of weirdo studios that I really like, e.g. Double Fine, inXile, Obsidian and Ninja Theory...
Sony seems to go more into the AAA third person territory lately, on which I don't give two shits about.

Next gen might be the first time I go with a MS console, if they play their cards right.

 

[Vawn]

If Sony doesn't offer 100% PS4 BC, it will be a huge mistake. MS has said they will offer 100% XB1 BC.

First of all, they've already announced PS4 BC on PS5.

Second, BC has never been a deciding factor in sales in any generation. It's used much less frequently than most tend to believe.

Some people act like Xbox invented BC. PS4 was the only Sony console that didn't have full BC with previous consoles. PlayStation had BC ever since Xbox even existed. PS3's weird hardware made that difficult this gen, but PlayStation BC will be back with PS5.

 

[cireza]

Intelligent delivery in 2013

Not the same thing (which is also available since launch on Xbox One by the way).

This feature allowed me to save 40 GB of disk space on my Xbox One.

 

[Vawn]

Why does Sony come up with the weirdest names for each new iteration of their hardware?

It's funny how different the two Japanese hardware manufacturers are. One found a successful formula and just continues to do minor tweaks while the other seems to reinvent the wheel every couple years.

Both are incredibly successful. Not surprisingly, Sony is a bit more consistent while Nintendo has more highs and lows.

Nintendo 64, GameCube, Wii, Wii U, Switch

PS1, PS2, PS3, PS4, PS5

 

[FranXico]

Second, BC has never been a deciding factor in sales in any generation. It's used much less frequently than most tend to believe.

It is used a lot In the beginning of a generation, until the current gen library grows.

 

[Negotiator]

First of all, they've already announced PS4 BC on PS5.

Yeah, but there's a Japanese site reporting that 100% PS4 BC is still not confirmed. We'll have to see. I'm sure Cerny and Co are working hard behind the scenes.

Second, BC has never been a deciding factor in sales in any generation.

Times have changed, so what happened in the past is irrelevant in this context.

People have built enormous digital backlogs this gen. That wasn't the case in previous gens, where digital distribution wasn't as prevalent as it is today.

If you have discs, fine, you can sell them, but if you have digital games, there are different expectations, since it's not possible to get rid of them.

That's why BC is of utmost importance these days. You can also blame PCs/mobile devices for altering people's expectations.

It's used much less frequently than most tend to believe.

Xbox Backward Compatibility Playtime Nears 1 Billion Hours - IGN

Last month, the company released a new wave of original Xbox games for Xbox One, including Morrowind and Jade Empire.

www.ign.com

Some people act like Xbox invented BC. PS4 was the only Sony console that didn't have full BC with previous consoles. PlayStation had BC ever since Xbox even existed. PS3's weird hardware made that difficult this gen, but PlayStation BC will be back with PS5.

I never said XBOX invented BC, so it's best not to put words in my mouth.

Both PS4 and XBOX ONE have AMD, PC-based hardware (XB1 is actually more complicated due to eSRAM), so there's no excuse, no matter how low-level coding the PS4 has.

GNM API is Mantle-based* (same for DX12). I also don't buy the excuse that Zen 2 will break BC with Jaguar. We're talking about x86-64 assembly and both CPUs share the same ISA.

* https://www.neogaf.com/threads/digi...n-common-with-the-gnm-api-used-in-ps4.686655/

Cell's ISA is a tough nut to crack (those pesky SPUs...), but even hobbyists have made great progress with RPCS3 in extremely SPU-heavy (100% utilization according to ND) games:



That doesn't mean I expect 100% PS3 BC (unlike 100% PS4 BC), but it certainly would be nice to have from a user perspective and I'm sure Sony will eventually want to phase out those aging PS3 motherboards in their PS Now infrastructure, don't you think?

PS1/PS2 BC should be relatively easy to achieve. Sony's digital profits will definitely rise even more if they offer comprehensive BC and it would also be a nice gesture to celebrate the upcoming 25-year PS1 anniversary.

 

[kraspkibble]

i just hope and pray that the Dualshock 5 gets rid of that awful touch pad and torch. oh and would it be too much to ask for asymmetrical analog sticks??

 

[Negotiator]

i just hope and pray that the Dualshock 5 gets rid of that awful touch pad and torch. oh and would it be too much to ask for asymmetrical analog sticks??

The RGB LED is going nowhere, they'll definitely need it for PSVR BC and (next-gen) PSVRv2.

How about asking for a 0-100% brightness slider instead? PCs already support that with DualShock 4, while the PS4 only has 3 presets (Bright, Medium, Dim).

A simple firmware update could fix this, we don't need a PS5 for that.

 

[Fake]

I still have soft spot from the PS3 UI.

 

[Wonko_C]

The RGB LED is going nowhere, they'll definitely need it for PSVR BC and (next-gen) PSVRv2.

How about asking for a 0-100% brightness slider instead? PCs already support that with DualShock 4, while the PS4 only has 3 presets (Bright, Medium, Dim).

A simple firmware update could fix this, we don't need a PS5 for that.

I don't know about how the tech works but, maybe the next controller could have infrared LEDs that the PS5 camera could track instead of the lightbar? Or maybe the PS4 controller will work with PS5 to ensure backwards compatibility with the games that need it.

 

[Portugeezer]

Preorder confirmed

 

[Guardian's Light]

I hope They'll make an option to turn off the pad light, that thing is a torture when you play in a dark room

 

[DonF]

i just hope and pray that the Dualshock 5 gets rid of that awful touch pad and torch. oh and would it be too much to ask for asymmetrical analog sticks??

...Which is exactly what I ask when Cerny hands me a prototype of the next-generation controller, an unlabeled matte-black doohickey that looks an awful lot like the PS4's DualShock 4. After all, there's a little hole on it, and a recently published patent points to Sony developing a voice-driven AI assistant for the PlayStation.

Looks like its the ds4 but with improvements under the hood mostly.

 

[Freeman76]

Second, BC has never been a deciding factor in sales in any generation. It's used much less frequently than most tend to believe.

Some people act like Xbox invented BC. PS4 was the only Sony console that didn't have full BC with previous consoles. PlayStation had BC ever since Xbox even existed. PS3's weird hardware made that difficult this gen, but PlayStation BC will be back with PS5.

You cant be fucking serious man?! Fair enough you clearly love Sony, but dont be ignorant to the fact MS have put in some great work and their BC program has meant Sony CAN'T leave it out in future.

 

[alabtrosMyster]

The trick is to have DEDICATED ray tracing hardware core!l, which the next Xbox WILL do, whereas the PS5 Will NOT do.

What are your sources? Your attitude reminds me of 2013, Sony had said at least one time that the PS4 would not have online only DRMs, yet many kept ignoring it on purpose until they made that silly video.

The level of righteousness of your posts is disturbing.

You write quite a lot for somebody who can't read:
“There is ray-tracing acceleration in the GPU hardware,”

 

[Fafalada]

Not the same thing (which is also available since launch on Xbox One by the way).

PlayGo is indeed different - but calling what X1 did at launch a 'feature' is stretching the goalposts all the way around the globe and then some...

Anyway 'intelligent delivery' as in games that are digitally delivered in parts has been done before consoles 'pioneered it' on phones, and before phones 'pioneered it' in PC online distribution.
But it's also been done on consoles before PS4/XB1 (Uncharted 3 was available that way on PS3, for one).
All that said - the tooling around this is usually the bigger problem and like the mess that their patching systems are (across the board - there are no 'great' platforms for it), I've not seen platform holders do a particularly great job at making this process developer friendly, yet.

 

[Darius87]

I'll be interested to see if they can do decent ray tracing with console hardware, particularly at 4k. We know that the number of rays increases according to the number of pixels, and at 4k ray tracing basically isn't viable on a 2080Ti. And PS5 will not equal a 2080Ti.

ray-tracing buffer will be lower resolution most likely 720p or 1080p then upscaled to 4k buffer, if ps5 will be around 11 -12 Tflops it will be equal or above to 2080Ti card in rasterization performance due to nature of console(single spec/optimization/APU/unified memory), we don't know how many gigarays ps5 could do so for RT performance is unknown.

 

[alabtrosMyster]

Yeah it's so cool that Microsoft did it two years ago and pioneered the concept of intelligent delivery...

I recall uncharted 3 on the PS3 letting you install the MP and SP version... You are just another victim of the MS sales pitch, the reinvent the wheel and act as if they were the first, some people like you fall for it every time.

I the first version of that must be much older, the actual first time I remember seeing "intelligent delivery" was on repacked games that allowed you to play games without the videos (yes pirates).

 

[Evilms]

PS5 CPU: x86-64-AMD Ryzen “Zen2", 8 cores/16 threads

PS5、2020年の年末商戦期に発売決定！ | ゲーム・エンタメ最新情報のファミ通.com

ソニー・インタラクティブエンタテインメントは、プレイステーション5を2020年の年末商戦期に発売することを発表した。

www.famitsu.com

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

Hardware acceleration definition.

"In computing, hardware acceleration is the use of computer hardware specially made to perform some functions more efficiently than is possible in software running on a general-purpose CPU."

For these the doesn't know specially made is another words for dedicated.

Basically, a DSP. No, not the one who jerked off on camera. A Digital Signal Processor.

 

[Orpheum]

Really excited for it. Still thinking about the possibility of there being a pro model from the start and the price range.

 

[scalman]

I would never thought that new Playstation 5 console will be called Playstation 5 , amazing name

 

[demigod]

Exactly what is the positive news?

Do you mean copying everything the xbox dashboard does is now positive? Just checking because that would be an interesting turnaround lol

or do you mean copying the way xbox controller can be wired or wireless

... honest question

You might want to state what they're copying the xbox for PS5, not everyone has an xbox to know. And wtf is this about wired/wireless controller? lol

Let's see here, they confirmed HW RT, adaptive triggers, USB-Type C, and 4K UHD(which some people want). It's time for you to take off your xbox goggles.

Again, where does he say that he is using DEDICATED ray tracing hardware cores? No where. Why? Because they don’t. They just use the GPU. Every GPU could do ray tracing. Doesn’t mean anything.

The trick is to have DEDICATED ray tracing hardware core!l, which the next Xbox WILL do, whereas the PS5 Will NOT do.

I like how you went from PS5 RT will be software based to now no RT Cores. Next excuse will be PS5 won't have DX12 SW ray tracing.
I know it hurts you really deep, it's ok to be wrong.

 

[dogmod]

Intelligent delivery in 2013

That's not the same thing, one allows you to pick and choose what you're installing, the other installs everything but merely sets up an executable portion first so you can play sooner.

 

[Journey]

Hardware acceleration definition.

"In computing, hardware acceleration is the use of computer hardware specially made to perform some functions more efficiently than is possible in software running on a general-purpose CPU."

For these the doesn't know specially made is another words for dedicated.

Perhaps you're just missing context to what I'm talking about. The comment I was replying to was a bump from an old thread about a Gears of War developer saying Scarlett has RT cores. In that thread it was automatically assumed that PS5 would have hardware support for ray tracing without there being an official mention, rumor or otherwise. In that same thread, people were pointing out how nVidia was adding RT support to their older cards and we discussed how we shouldn't confuse the language of "Hardware that supports ray tracing" with "Hardware accelerated" or hardware that contains RT cores designed for this specific task, as do nVidia cards which in addition to Tensor cores, have specialized RT cores.

Later during the topic, sites updated the comments made by the dev and mysteriously removed the RT core comment to just say ray tracing supported hardware. We concluded that there was "Nothing to see here". Now we have this new topic with some new info, which is fine, but calling out the old thread as an "You were wrong" is stupid, the previous topic had nothing to do with PS5, it was based on a comment for Gears of War 5 developer. I'm still curious to know to what extent the hardware is supporting it, could be as you said, a new solution from AMD that they'll be adding to their future cards, or could just be PR BS from both sides.

At the end of the day, its a discussion, we don't have to act like we're in high school, I mean, look at this shit below:

Yeah, I think Cerny gave people too much credit.... he actually thought Xbox fans might have a brain or at least integrity.
What he said was straightforward... Software-based Raytracing would use the existing architecture (CPU / GPU). Hardware-based is exactly what you described...

More denial from that crowd. All they know these days.

Who are you even talking about?

 

[Croatoan]

Next up on the obvious proving wrong list is 8K. Sony wouldn’t state it were possible graphically and later champion it as a highlight if it weren’t possible.

Lol it will output at an upscale 8k. The ps5 will not render games at 8k. We are still 3 or more years from getting 8k 30fps on the best pcs.

 

[Croatoan]

How glorious would it be on the PS5 Pro to run Native 4K @60fps. That will shut the PC Masterace up! lol

Are you fucking dense? You think the ps5 is going to have a the power of a $1000 GPU and sell for under $500?

Why are console only people so delusional?I love my consoles too but man yall make it hard not to laugh at you.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Yeah it's so cool that Microsoft did it two years ago and pioneered the concept of intelligent delivery...

Xbox One Intelligent Delivery: Everything you need to know

Intelligent Delivery could be saving space on your Xbox One – without you even realizing.

www.windowscentral.com

Oh but Sony said it yesterday lest we all forget Microsoft already implements this stuff...

Pioneered?

Shit has been done on the PC. UC3 on the PS3 prior as well for consoles.

They all copycat each other, and the costumer/gamer benefits the most. FFS stop being super nerds.

 

[Negotiator]

Are you fucking dense? You think the ps5 is going to have a the power of a $1000 GPU and sell for under $500?

Why are console only people so delusional?I love my consoles too but man yall make it hard not to laugh at you.

The 14nm -> 7nm jump alone provides 3.3x density improvement. 2080 Ti is a 754mm2 GPU. Do the math. Scarlett's die size is estimated to be 400mm2.

Next-gen consoles were delayed until late 2020 to take advantage of 7nm EUV. There's no other plausible explanation.

Also, try to remember that 2080 Ti will be old news by next year, when nVidia will release Ampere (RTX 3080 etc.) at the exact same process (7nm EUV).

The high-end/enthusiast card of today is the mid-range card of tomorrow. Of course PCs will always have the upper hand, as long as you're willing to spend $1000 (or possibly even more, who knows) for an RTX 3080.

RSX was also equal to 2x GeForce 6800 Ultra, but it came 2 years later.

 

[Fake]

 

[DeepEnigma]

Hardware acceleration definition.

"In computing, hardware acceleration is the use of computer hardware specially made to perform some functions more efficiently than is possible in software running on a general-purpose CPU."

For these the doesn't know specially made is another words for dedicated.

They probably also don't want to use "dedicated", because AMD may have a multi-use function for their cores that they are not ready to speak about. Still hardware accelerated, but the core is not just locked to RT capabilities?

 

[Vawn]

Times have changed, so what happened in the past is irrelevant in this context

No they haven't. Xbox One feel even further behind PS4 this generation after the release of BC. Obviously that wasn't the reason, but it did little to change the tides.

 

[bumleforce]

Doesnt the xbox conteoller already do this with rumble. Like if you drive on a diffrent surface the controller reflects that with how it rumbles. Also they just announced the CPU cores and threads somewhere. I think Fujitsu. Seems like they are giveing out a lot of info before reveal

 

[Vawn]

You cant be fucking serious man?! Fair enough you clearly love Sony, but dont be ignorant to the fact MS have put in some great work and their BC program has meant Sony CAN'T leave it out in future.

They're not leaving it out. They'll have it just like they did on literally every console besides the PS4.

But Xbox One having it has absolutely nothing to do with it. If anything Xbox being the only one of three current consoles to have it, yet still be getting destroyed by both competitors shows how little BC matters in the grand scheme.

Regardless, it doesn't matter as PS5 has already been determined to have BC.

 

[Negotiator]

No they haven't.

Really?

"Few next-gen games during the cross-gen transition period, immense backlogs, subscriptions/rentals, digital games, evergreen games, games as a service."

The bold part is what changed this gen compared to the previous ones. Are you still going to deny it?

People still play GTAV MP to this very day and there's no guarantee Rockstar with offer PS5/XB2 patches (still waiting for Pro/X ones).

Try to understand that not all gamers are the same and companies need to cater to everyone's needs to be successful. Just because you stopped playing GTAV SP back in 2013 and you're ready for GTA6, it doesn't mean everyone thinks that way.

 

[Vawn]

Really?

"Few next-gen games during the cross-gen transition period, immense backlogs, subscriptions/rentals, digital games, evergreen games, games as a service."

The bold part is what changed this gen compared to the previous ones. Are you still going to deny it?

People still play GTAV MP to this very day and there's no guarantee Rockstar with offer PS5/XB2 patches (still waiting for Pro/X ones).

Try to understand that not all gamers are the same and companies need to cater to everyone's needs to be successful. Just because you stopped playing GTAV SP back in 2013 and you're ready for GTA6, it doesn't mean everyone thinks that way.

I'm not saying whether I use BC or not. I like BC. I am glad that Sony started the craze way back with PS2. I'm simply talking how much BC affects sales (not much).

 

[Fake]

Richard Leadbetter, Technology Editor, Digital Foundry

There are some further takeaways from the Wired article that I enjoyed - specifically, the confirmation that the bizarre Brazilian patent for a new console-like (if rather extraordinarily shaped) design is indeed a PlayStation 5 development kit. Sony's designs for development hardware always make a statement, but rarely reflect the look of final consoles. However, with that said, doubling down on cooling does seem to be a key aspect of the dev kit design - more so than anything we've seen before.

 

[Negotiator]

But Xbox One having it has absolutely nothing to do with it. If anything Xbox being the only one of three current consoles to have it, yet still be getting destroyed by both competitors shows how little BC matters in the grand scheme.

Correlation != causation

Just because XB1 has BC, it doesn't mean it's the reason it failed. If it had 360 BC, Game Pass, XB1X-class hardware, no mandatory Kinect and exclusives like Gears 5 from day 1, this generation would have played out differently. BC is not a hindrance by any means, it's always a plus.

You remind me of people saying back in 2013 that the PS4 would "never" win the generation, because "traditionally" it's the weakest console that wins the generation, not the strongest one (and the PS4 was the strongest back then).

Look where Wii U is compared to the PS4. Again: times have changed. The past doesn't always predicate the future.

 

[mckmas8808]

What they say?