JordanN
Banned
It wont have 64GB of RAM.
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Nextgen consoles expected graphics improvents.
- Thread starter Shangounchained
- Start date
Shangounchained
Banned
There isn't something like a most powerful hardware you can't reach it even cgi can't have it, we just keep improving,
And I created a thread to iron out the important graphical problems we have in realtime graphics on gaming this goes all through the board from pc to consoles, the problems I outlined up there are in your pc games aswell and yes no matter how powerful Ur pc is.
Lastly most gaming innovation comes from consoles because it's where the money is at developers every new generation come with new tricks and better looking games it's no exception for coming consoles and I'm expressing what I hope to see!
Shangounchained
Banned
it won't have 128gb which should have been the increment judging that every console. Generation had a 16x more ram than the older,. But Sony has said the proprietary SSDs on next gen consoles are being used as virtual ram so don't be surprised.
But anyhow I simply want to see a substantial leap in graphics and not simply because of consoles or ps5 but if they pull it on consoles then Pcs will also get a push and it'll go although the industry, it's just boring to see the same graphics with just higher frames and resolutions every year it's boring.
Little Chicken
Member
I think physics and AI will see big improvements next gen.
I'd personally like to see the next evolution of natural environments in games. Trees, in particular, still look like shit.
I'd personally like to see the next evolution of natural environments in games. Trees, in particular, still look like shit.
anthraticus
Banned
Rather have them spend the time & money on things that actually make the games more fun to play.....not just 'better to look at'. They've looked good enough for a while already.
Shangounchained
Banned
So that means we don't need a next gen if they look good enough, then we should settle with a PS4 for the next 10 years and a PS4 pro 2,3 and 4 to iron out better gameplay
JordanN
Banned
CGI is capable of doing all the things you listed in your OP, so yes, the hardware does exist.
The difference is that it takes a long time to render.
I'm just telling you from personal experience, video game graphics are not the best place to look if you want most visually demanding effects out there.
I literally have my 3DS Max software open right now. I even built a new computer to help with rendering speed, but it still takes hours to do complex lighting and physics simulation. Why would this be? It can't be a conspiracy because the movie industry would LOVE to ditch all their million dollar equipment if they could just render an entire movie in a second.
Shangounchained
Banned
It's a video game topic here I'm not talking about just looking at graphics, it's video games I play in the graohics,...
JordanN
Banned
And the power needed to do those things in real time are decades away and that's assuming if we really do get there without radically new architecture.
Moore's law is actually expected to end soon. We wont be able to pack double the transistors on a single chip like we did in the past. So hitting a wall when it comes to real time graphics might soon be a thing.
For CGI animation, there is no risk because they can render an image for as long as they want. Games only have 30 or 60fps to do things or it's lights out.
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JordanN
Banned
CPU clockspeeds stopped having huge jumps.
Remember when the PS3/360 had 3.2Ghz CPU's? Modern day PC's only go as high as 5Ghz, unless you do some serious cooling.
It was only a matter time before the leap in memory was also expected to shrink.
Technically, only 5.5GB of the PS4's memory is dedicated to games. The rest is used for the OS.
But all this proves once again is that MS/Sony are now building their consoles to focus less on graphics and sell other features.
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Shangounchained
Banned
Well if the ps5 comes with atleast 24-32 GB of vram plus the proprietary ssd then we're good to go they'll be able to iron out proper graphics improvements,
And about CPUs yes we've never really gone past 3.2 GHz they say it's due to hearing but we've been able to put more transistors than before PS4 or xbone have about 5 billion and the PS3 360 had about 300 million, ps5 and Scarlett would have better CPUs 8 cores 16 threads more flops so should be better.
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JordanN
Banned
A developer already hinted it's only going to have 8GB Vram at max.
Again, it's going to be a $400 system. Graphics wont look the same as last gen, but it's not going to be 100x better either.
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
When I was younger I cared about cutting edge graphics and hyper realistic visuals but as I got older I care far more about art direction more than high tech graphics. I want developers give me interesting and fun gameplay with excellent art direction like most FromSoftware, PlatinumGames, StudioJapan and Atlus games. I don't want another RDR2.
Shangounchained
Banned
Your talking b.s, were not decades away from having volumetric smoke or flames and certainly not decades away from having better looking grass and fluid effects! Mauhe Ur decades away from understanding!
Shangounchained
Banned
You must be smoking weed with that developer because you can't have next gen visuals with a vram the same size as current consoles, to put it simple with 8gb you'll have the same assets per frame as a PS4.
makaveli60
Member
I'm sure others mentioned these earlier but beisdes OPs examples, eliminate pop-in, no clipping, no jaggies no other "weird" effects that tell us that this is a videogame using tricks to achieve such graphics. I think developers achieved a certain level that is very good but these things I mentioned have a very bad effect on that.
Shangounchained
Banned
Well those games you mentioned needed better graphics to fulfill the art direction those 2 work together, I understand that more pixels doesn't mean better looking but art directed pixels do.
And I'm sure developers have always wanted games to follow and look like their art direction but failed due to weaker hardware! Even films suffer from this i.e they couldn't make jodorowskis dune!
Shangounchained
Banned
Good points what grinds my gears is simply putting on a game and directly when it starts I can easily point out what makes it a game, I wnat to feel like I'm playing a movie I simply want to be in that game world and not feel too different,
as u said I didn't have to know how CG works but playing even as a kid growing up I could tell the effects and how they worked even without having any knowledge of graphics at all, I could tell it's a sprite, tell the aliasing, tell poor polycounts and cgi from gameplay, I could tell what my machine is capable and every tricks they used.
ricardo_sousa11
Member
I think you will be disapointed.
We wont see full bodies of liquid as a real fluid simulation, we might see blood and other small splatters react realistically, but that will be it (and it will make a huge difference).
I would love to see an imporvement in physics, specially ragdoll physics, what R* has been doing has been amazing, so I cant wait to see what they will do next. Also bullet casing and decals last longer, so we barely notice if they disappear.
Destruction and everything envolving particle effects will take a huge boost as well.
Volumetric clouds/fog is already a thing, so I'd expect to see realistic volumetric fire effects as well.
Hair and clothing will certainly be improved, as well as sprites and LOD distances.
Game development is more about hiding and masking the limitations of the hardware rather than trying to achieve a true realistic simulation. You wont care if the grass is a sprite if its far away.
We wont see full bodies of liquid as a real fluid simulation, we might see blood and other small splatters react realistically, but that will be it (and it will make a huge difference).
I would love to see an imporvement in physics, specially ragdoll physics, what R* has been doing has been amazing, so I cant wait to see what they will do next. Also bullet casing and decals last longer, so we barely notice if they disappear.
Destruction and everything envolving particle effects will take a huge boost as well.
Volumetric clouds/fog is already a thing, so I'd expect to see realistic volumetric fire effects as well.
Hair and clothing will certainly be improved, as well as sprites and LOD distances.
Game development is more about hiding and masking the limitations of the hardware rather than trying to achieve a true realistic simulation. You wont care if the grass is a sprite if its far away.
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JordanN
Banned
Fun fact: I once rendered an entire field of grass. It had 44 million polygons.
It still took a few minutes to render on what was a 4GB GTX 960 at a sub-HD resolution.
And this was without any actual wind effects or animation (i.e moving grass). It will certainly be decades before we see these graphics running in real time.
Millions of polygons with textures, lighting and physics applied to them would crush any CPU.
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Shangounchained
Banned
About volumetric fluids it doesn't have to be the whole ocean it can simply be the area around the character and the rest of the ocean can simply be a shader.
diffusionx
Gold Member
We get those shortcuts because developers are ultimately more ambitious than the hardware allows. The PS5 will surely be a nice system (but not nearly as nice as some predictors seem to believe it will be) but it's not going to do more than what developers can think of and try to do. We will continue to get all those. Here's a simple example, the Switch version of Virtua Racing loads and renders the entire track at all times so there is no pop-up whatsoever. Great, but I want to play racers that go beyond what Virtua Racing did. So we end up with pop-in because the games are doing more than what the consoles can handle.
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grfunkulus
Banned
Lol. 2080 and 2080 super have 8gb of Vram
They're both more powerful than the ps5 gpu will be.
It won't be a problem
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
Bloodborne was still able to capture the gothic victorian era, while Order 1886 try to achieve that by sacrificing gameplay.
From I have see this generation most games that tried to achieve better visuals sacrificed interactivity and gameplay.
I mean just look at InFAMOUS Second Son, it visuals its beyond first two games but the amount enemy diversity InFAMOUS 2 had it blows Second Son out of the water and not to mention 2nd game had building size monsters.
ricardo_sousa11
Member
Most games dont have a lot to do on water, unless the whole purpose of the game is focused on ocean/water, so it would still be a waste of resources, unless theres any objective in having those simulations.
makaveli60
Member
Agree with everything you said. Since my childhood I've been "dreaming" about playing CG quality games, wanting to feel like "playing a movie" as you also wrote. The only game this gen that made me feel like this was The Order 1886, though there were moments in other games too, but that was the only one that made me feel like this during the whole game. All in all this was a good gen with a lot of improvements over the previous but before the start of it I was hyped that all (or lots of) games will be like playing a movie. Hopefully nextgen will deliver more on this. I would like open world games to look like The Order 1886 at least. I don't know if we can expect that, but let's hope.
Shangounchained
Banned
Aren't you using raytracing on that CG platform 3dsmax or whatever and rendering applications ussualy use CPU and not GPUs atleast until recently, and also gaming engines have tricks to render that much grass much faster, have u heard about the game flower on PS3,Fun fact: I once rendered an entire field of grass. It had 44 million polygons.
It still took a few minutes to render on what was a 4GB GTX 960 at a sub-HD resolution.
And this was without any actual wind effects or animation (i.e moving grass). It will certainly be decades before we see these graphics running in real time.
Shangounchained
Banned
Doesn't have to be a game about water but any game with interactable water should be able to pull it of I mean water isn't flat and that spoiled the experience when u play since PS1 till today water in games is still flat
Shangounchained
Banned
Playstation exclusives! Have made me proud in that filmic cgi department, I feel they are the only ones trying, the order was phenomenal a really good example on how graphics should move forward on the way they used pbr to the lighting it just looked filmic.
ricardo_sousa11
Member
So you'd rather impact the performance of a game heavily, just to get those simulations realistic, even if theres absolutely no need? RDR2 has very realistic water, it serves its purpose, it doesnt need to be any more realistic, apart from when the water touches the ground, they can improve on those simulations, like waves and such, but more than that isnt worth the price.
Shangounchained
Banned
Memory size and bandwidth is always the biggest culprit in graphics and until we get a substantial leap in this department then Poppin will be on of the cancers we'd love with.
Shangounchained
Banned
I'm talking about next gen consoles, rdr2 achieved enough improvements from last gen I mean volumetric clouds, tesselated snow everywhere there's alot and I'm sure if gta6 is being made for next gen it'll surpass rdr2 like people wouldn't believe and i expect such fluid simulations and other improvements be made
JordanN
Banned
Even without ray tracing, 44 million polygons still requires a lot of memory. Something my poor little 4GB graphics card just couldn't keep up with.
And yes, I'm aware of Flower. I believe they're using the same techniques used in Conker (fin and shells), which is great for video game purposes, but it falls apart for realism purposes when you zoom closer.
I can tell because it has that "fuzziness" fringe at the end.
Whereas with 3D grass, light can actually enter each blade and scatter inside, as well as cast shadows on other grass.
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
intbal
Member
I could be perfectly happy for the rest of my gaming life with graphics on the level of Crysis 3, as long as the worlds expand in size and complexity (where warranted), and framerates achieve a minimum of 75fps. 4k resolution as a base is also preferred, but not at the expense of framerate.
Shangounchained
Banned
2080 has about the same vram size as a PS4, most graphics today are average 8gb this is because of consoles, games today don't need more than 6gb vram because they are console ports and even with a 2080 you get the same assets as a PS4 only with better resolutions and frame rates, this is mainly due to the bandwidth this pc cards have but it's the same 6gb assets and you can check this on Ur pcs vram usage!
If next gen consoles come out with 24gb of vram then only a rtx titan can compare to them in asset quality per frame a 2080 can't it might be faster but the vram size would be a problem the CPU would have to use the main ram as vram and this will slow the FPS and lead to Poppins and missing assets!
Shangounchained
Banned
It's inconceivable to even think a ps5 would have 8gb ram that is total b.s maybe a Nintendo switch 2
Shangounchained
Banned
Then you should get a pc it's what it's for more resolutions more frames but I don't think 90 percent of console gamers worldwide put that as priority on a ps5!
JordanN
Banned
The article said 8GB VRAM, not the entire console memory (which was 16 ~ 20).
That's more believable.
intbal
Member
I was talking more about game design than hardware performance. Probably the wrong thread for my post.
Matt_Fox
Member
Vanishing corpses... it's a small ask but Next Gen please can we move on from vanishing corpses?
I want to proudly stride through hallways and chambers festooned with the bodies of the slain. I want to retrace my steps littered with the mounds of dead and say there was the killing ground, there was the bottle neck, there I had the fight of my life and I triumphed!
Vanishing corpses reminds you that 'all this is just a game'. You have your environments and your mobs but they're not really connected. I want that immersion. You could even cleverly use it as a gameplay element. Blocking a route by creating a mound of dead badies that the others have to clamber over or go around.
I want to proudly stride through hallways and chambers festooned with the bodies of the slain. I want to retrace my steps littered with the mounds of dead and say there was the killing ground, there was the bottle neck, there I had the fight of my life and I triumphed!
Vanishing corpses reminds you that 'all this is just a game'. You have your environments and your mobs but they're not really connected. I want that immersion. You could even cleverly use it as a gameplay element. Blocking a route by creating a mound of dead badies that the others have to clamber over or go around.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
That is a Hellpoint dev speculating on what he thinks will happen, long before devkits were handed out to the scene that dev is from.
I don't feel they are going to split the pool, based on wanting to keep things unified for not only developers, but compatibility. They will use ultra high bandwidth, and tricks for the GPU/GPGPU cycles to communicate directly with the SSD itself.
There have since been leaks after devkits are out, which do not lead to that split pool scenario.
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Shangounchained
Banned
8gb vram is what pcs use for current 30fps console game ports at 4k ultra u saw even rdr2 can't run at 4k ultra 60fps on a 2080ti, so I don't think only 8gb will be for vram on ps5 it's a gaming machine so what'll the rest of the 20gb be used for os and themes?
EDMIX
Member
Yea...thats unlikely bud. Better then PS4, is still better then PS4. The Last Of Us 3 or Spider man 2 or God Of War 2 etc will all likely be PS5 titles, not having the exact leap from PS3 to 4 won't change that folks want those games or that those games look better etc. Developers still DEVELOP games, unless the hardware is legit stopping them from doing that, gamers will still want games. So PS4's leap past PS3 isn't the whole story.
The Last Of Us on PS3 gave folks reasons to care about The Last Of Us 2 on PS4....
PS4 could be less times powerful then PS3 is then it current stands and folks would still actually buy a PS4 to play The Last Of Us 2.
Did you forget PS2 was the weakest of the 3 and outsold them? Why isn't the XONE X moving monster units? Power is part of it yes, games is the whole thing, that is the reason why anyone is buying a next gen system. Heck, Red Dead 2 is on PC and has a host of issues. Keep PC to continue having crappy ports a year later after everyone else? So having hardware just isn't the whole story otherwise PS4 shouldn't even be at 100 plus million units in record time. PC is so good right now right? I mean....you are saying this about PS5, buuuuuuuut PC exist RIGHT NOW compared to PS4, that means your argument should apply to PS4 before PS5. So PS5 not being the same leap as PS4, doesn't mean you get their titles on PC, which means the consumer still needs to buy the system to get the game. Pretty sure Switch just surprised XBONE and its clearly a weaker device. That argument just doesn't hold to reality.
Shangounchained
Banned
Nope they aren't using that technique you can clearly go to YouTube and see flower it's totally pure blades of glass not some old shader trick u just posted!Even without ray tracing, 44 million polygons still requires a lot of memory. Something my poor little 4GB graphics card just couldn't keep up with.
And yes, I'm aware of Flower. I believe they're using the same techniques used in Conker (fin and shells), which is great for video game purposes, but it falls apart for realism purposes when you zoom closer.
I can tell because it has that "fuzziness" fringe at the end.
Whereas with 3D grass, light can actually enter each blade and scatter inside, as well as cast shadows on other grass.
Shangounchained
Banned
P
People will find it hard to get a ps5 without a proper graphucs leap because it won't be convincing unless they forcedly stop making cross gen titles and that still won't make the ps5 sales to 100.million for instance not many people bought Xbox one X or PS4 pro because it's the same games the same looks only better resolutions, this isn't enough! A next gen console should really be cutting edge. Unless Ur into mobiles or Nintendo!
Ps2 sold because of the great titles it had the graphics evolution from ps1 and because it came earlier than Xbox original, everybody had time to adopt it, I remember a friend of mine stoped playing Xbox and bought a ps2 because everybody had a ps2 and so we could exchange discs in school,
People will find it hard to get a ps5 without a proper graphucs leap because it won't be convincing unless they forcedly stop making cross gen titles and that still won't make the ps5 sales to 100.million for instance not many people bought Xbox one X or PS4 pro because it's the same games the same looks only better resolutions, this isn't enough! A next gen console should really be cutting edge. Unless Ur into mobiles or Nintendo!
Shangounchained
Banned
D
Do u mind telling us a bit of those tricks?