InterMusketeer
Member
Why's that?
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The Fandom Menace - Not Really Right Wing At All, At Worst Just Overly Pedantic Nerds
- Thread starter #Phonepunk#
- Start date
Explosive Zombie
Banned
It's operating on the idea that movies need to be logical when they absolutely don't. Human beings aren't logical, we aren't robots, and movies are usually about human beings who make mistakes because we aren't logical beings. It used to be a plot hole that truly affected a film and warranted considering it lesser was something along the lines of the part in The Lost World: Jurassic Park where someone the T. Rex killed all the crew then got back into the hold and usually problems like this had explanations (a cut scene involving raptors on the boat). Now it's become "this character didn't do the smartest thing possible" or "this character didn't do what I'd do with my power of hindsight!" or "this is a coincidence!" or "that's not how time travel would work!" (this one irks me a lot, since we can't really time travel the general idea is to let a movie dictate it's own time travel rules.)
To me a plot hole is when a movie contradicts itself, not when it contradicts reality. If Back to the Future establishes that you slowly fade away due to time changing then that's the way things work. If it establishes that going back in time creates an alternate timeline that's also fine... but then the problem becomes when Biff comes back forward to the future from the alternate timeline he created why does he end up in the regular future? Think about it, Marty changes how his parents meet up and when he returns to the present it's a better version of the present, so shouldn't what Biff had done have changed his present as well? Criticizing these films for not adhering to how we theoretically believe time travel should work is nonsensical but criticizing them for not following their own rules is fine and dandy.
I'll give you another example. A lot of plot hole complaints stem from character behaviors. However, if we're dealing with a character who is established well enough in film the only problem we should have with their behavior is when it doesn't fit that character. Instead of complaining that the character did something wrong to complicate the plot it should be "was it wrong for the character to do it?" A perfect example would be how mad people were at Peter Quill in Avengers Infinity War for attacking Thanos when they almost had the glove off. Quill had just learned Thanos had killed the woman he loved... in the last movie we saw Quill in, when his father reveals he killed his mother he pulls out blasters and tries to murder him in a rage. This is a consistent character, their flaws are consistent and the events occur due to their flaws. On the other hand, Tony Stark privatizes national security and tells the government to sit and spin when it comes to him working for them and giving them his ideas. Then what's he do? He gets told "some people died when you saved the entire world, feel bad" and he goes "okay I will work for the government now who never ever is responsible for collateral damage." Now, to be fair, having a character change their mind on something isn't out of the question but it usually needs to feel natural and have some kind of good context for them doing so.
So, for me, the problem with many critiques of TLJ are annoying because to me the characters are well established and their flaws are as well. The film doesn't feel like it betrays its own logic or has characters behave in a way that doesn't make sense for them. People often like to harp on the idea of Luke not being a character who would give up but he constantly gave up in the OT, and we saw exactly why he did here. Some people say Luke even briefly igniting the saber is out of character, but he's the same man who went into a rage and nearly murdered his father when his friends were threatened. People say he grew since then and I agree, it's why he only briefly ignited the saber, even after seeing a vision of Kylo destroying everything he holds dear. The irony that by even contemplating killing Kylo he sets those events in motion would be crushing to just about anyone and it also serves as interesting meta-commentary on how the prequels handled the Jedi as Luke looks at his failure mirrored in their actions. Yoda even reiterates for us how what Luke is doing wrong in the film is similar to the things he did wrong in the OT but with a new lesson he hadn't taught him before.
All this is especially weird for me when certain people who hate TLJ praise Rogue One. Rogue One is a movie where characters go from criminal rogues not interested in helping others to giving inspiring speeches with little to no context or development to explain such an arc occurring. It's a film where the most interesting and likeable character is a robot. It's a film that actually contradicts the canon with that super cool Vader scene (if you don't believe me try watching A New Hope right after it and listen to the dialogue between Vader and Leia). It's a film that throws stuff in like the guys at the bar and the droids as an empty gesture that does nothing for the film. A film where characters just randomly say "no, I won't leave, I'll just die here, why not?" I mean I could go on and on about the film, I feel like it's judged on different standards because it's a minor story or something but I just don't get it, nearly everything people complain about with TLJ is actually present in Rogue One, including it kinda being about nothing. Why do we need to see the mission to get the plans to the resistance? Why do we need an explanation for why the Death Star has a single weak spot that's hard to even hit on target without the force guiding you? Why are any of these characters likeable or worth caring about? I've seen people say since they all die it's fine they aren't developed but I don't get that at all, a character's death should have meaning, you shouldn't watch a character die and feel nothing because you barely knew them and their death wasn't even that special. I'm on a tangent here but for me the things that matter in a film are character, story, themes and stuff like that. Not the exact logistics of the plot, to examine those is to disengage from the film you're watching, it's fine for nerdy conversations but as the basis for disliking a film? I dunno, it'd have to go pretty far to alienate you for that I would think. Like trying to sit through one of those Now You See Me movies or something. And this isn't my standards being low, I think this stuff serves as interesting trivia and discussion fodder I just think it misses the point of film as a medium when it's used as the crux of why a film wasn't good.
MacReady13
Member
Luke "very quickly" learns?!? Isn't there a 3 year space in between ANH and Empire? And he is still learning the force? He struggles to grab the light saber using the force at the beginning of Empire, yet after a couple of days Rey is moving massive boulders!!!
Explosive Zombie
Banned
That wasn't a struggle, it took a bit of concentration. He wasn't training all that time, in fact it's after the scene you speak of that Obi-Wan present himself to Luke and tells him his training must be completed under the tutelage of Yoda. It's unclear how long he trains for under Yoda but considering his arrival at Cloud City it couldn't have been too long, Yoda does after all tell him his training isn't complete. I'm not sure what after a couple of days means in terms of the sequel trilogy, it seems a bit vague on how long she's been grappling with the force and it doesn't actually show if it was a struggle or not for her to life the boulders. I will admit they are more subtle with the force usually in the OT but part of that was technology, I don't really see a problem with Rey being more gifted with the force than Luke or why she should need to learn at the same pace.
InterMusketeer
Member
I won't quote your entire post, but I assure you, I've read it all.
I get what you're saying, but I also think movies need to be believable. If I can't believe that events would happen or how people would react to them, the film's going to lose me.
I agree. It all depends on the 'rules' and setting of the world
One of my major complaints has always been that Yoda shows up as a Force ghost to talk to Luke in TLJ, but only AFTER shit's gone down. At the end of Ep 6 Luke is able to communicate with Force ghosts of Kenobi, his father and Yoda. Ben idolizes Vader in TFA, but how can that possibly happen when they can just talk to each other through the Force? Anakin's good now, right? Why do none of the dead Jedi help Luke in establishing this new Jedi order, but pop up later to talk to Rey and Luke when it's already too late? To me, that's a contradiction of the film's own logic.
Yeah, can't help you there. I hated Rogue One too. Pointless characters, pointless story. I don't remember if it contradicts later depictions of Vader, but I'll take your word for it.
But now it seems like you're arguing that people decided that they wanted to disengage from the film, so they start looking for nitpicks. I can't speak for anyone else, but from my perspectives it's the other way around. You watch the film, you let it sink in, and come to the conclusion that it wasn't very good. Then you try to explain why the film didn't grab you as much as you'd hoped. As stated in the OP: People do that with every single film ever made. The only difference is how concentrated some of that dislike, or even hatred for the movie can get, and how companies like Disney respond to it, and use this backlash to shift the blame. We saw that before with Ghostbusters 2016, and we keep seeing it.
Explosive Zombie
Banned
Yoda showing up is what gets Luke to face down Kylo Ren, buying the others time to escape and inspiring a whole new generation of resistance fighters. In the OT Obi-Wan would occasionally say he would not be there to help Luke, there are tests Luke needed to overcome on his own. I think of the force ghosts as being like Gandalf in LOTR, he only intervenes as a last resort, the living (or humans/hobbits) need to solve most these things themselves otherwise they can't truly be the hero they're meant to be.
I agree with you here but I think part of it is that they're coming up with rationalizations for why they didn't like it or parroting stuff they saw online, what was the real reason it rubbed them the wrong way? A lot of the time you won't get that out of them. If I wanted to nitpick plot holes in Rogue One I could but the fundamental flaw in the film for me was characters I didn't care about, which is a really tough thing to get past in a Star Wars film. It just goes nowhere in debate though, even if I explain how I feel about the characters being inconsistent and having unearned arcs with little development all someone needs to say is "I really liked them". And that's it. This is why trying to figure out how light speed rams could be possible ends up better fodder for arguments despite the fact that it misses the crux of why the person really didn't enjoy the film. This is most noticeable when films receive extended cuts that iron out alleged problems that made the film bad, like Batman v Superman's extended cut adds in stuff like how the wheelchair was lead-lined so Superman couldn't see the bomb, it actually has lots of explanations for things people complained about but I'll find people saying they hated that version more. Why? Because it's more of a movie they didn't like and those nitpicks were just the most concrete things they could isolate, despite being inconsequential to their enjoyment of the film.
InterMusketeer
Member
See, this is where the subjective part comes in. You're just like "Oh well, I guess that just didn't happen because the time wasnt right yet" whereas I look at the situation and can't believe that these characters would behave in this way. Kenobi is on Luke's ass 24/7 in the OT movies. He shows up all the time to guide him. Even while Luke's training with Yoda! What stops them from doing the same now? What, they don't want to save millions of people from dying on those planets that got blown up? We need a bit more time so Luke learns his lesson before kicking the bucket and so Rey can become a hero? I just can't believe that. The image I have of these characters is apparently different from yours.
Yeah, but that's pretty much the discussion we were having on this very page. I argued that I don't think the characters in TLJ are well-established and nothing they do feels earned. That ended in me explaining why that stuff didn't click, and comparing it to other things that did click, and so on. I see that as a discussion taking its natural course. I guess you could see it as a diversion, but how else are people supposed to talk about what they did and didn't enjoy in a movie? And if you hate that kind of discussion so much, why were you participating in one just now? I guess there's got to be something to it then.
I agree with a few of the things you're saying, but then I remember that you posted a video where the guy says "Well Star Wars has a lore team, so anything that's in the movies is canon, even shit you don't like" and it's like... That's just an easy way to dismiss pottentially valid criticism. Maybe that lore team didn't do their job well. Then what? There's tons of videos of people arguing that this lore team consists of amateurs who've no clue what they're doing. What if that's true? His argument falls apart. That's explaining things not through the logic within the movies, but through the real world, which you criticized yourself!
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#Phonepunk#
Banned
people have looked them up on IMDB. the dozen or so people overseeing the first two ST films all had maybe a handful of TV episodes between all of them. i think the most experienced inter-company person was a QA tester for LucasArts in the 90s who hung around.
new interview with Mark Hamill, it makes me sad to hear him deal w this, but he is trying to look on the bright side. love how he shouts out getting saved by Lando in Empire.
Mark brings up Luke being a simple farm boy and how important this was. Luke's relatability is a big deal, and was a big part of the attraction. it is missing from the ST. Luke was a farmer, not a space wizard, not a princess, not a robot or pirate, just a farmer, something regular people could be. it made him relatable.
contrast this to Rey, who has lived by herself fending for her life over the past decade (?) as a homeless scavenger with no parents & no structure whatsoever. people do not relate to this. getting raised by your aunt or uncle, being a whiny teenage kid who dreams of something bigger, that is something people can relate to.
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-Arcadia-
Banned
Eh. If there’s one bright side to all this, it’s seeing this Twitter screecher’s (remember insulting a kid and family for wearing a stormtrooper outfit, because they were Trumps?) only worthwhile legacy torn down by the same ideologues he endlessly propagandizes.
Explosive Zombie
Banned
For most the film a central idea was that Luke had closed himself off to the force, so they couldn't appear to him, when Yoda does appear Luke seems genuinely surprised but at that point he had opened himself up to the force again. Either way Yoda showed up to talk to Luke when Luke would actually listen and change, he needed to go through the journey he did for what Yoda was saying to resonate. I feel like the amount Obi Wan actually shows up is being overstated here, too. They also warn Luke in the OT about trying to know the future and how tricky that is, but you're assuming they knew such planetary genocide was about to take place and simply did nothing to stop it. Would he have even listened prior when he was convinced the Jedi were failures and their legacy was failure? Would it be satisfying if these films had force ghosts showing up and saying "hey heroes, there's a giant planet-sized weapon in this specific space quadrant, go take that shit out" like their existence is to dole out mission objectives to our heroes or something? It totally ignores the struggles our heroes go through are what define them and simply being served the right answers won't allow them to grow.
I don't hate that kind of discussion but I do find that such discussion quite often does simply end in someone saying "we just disagree" whereas the more concrete aspects like plot holes or what-have-you don't tend to end that way. Discussing why you did or didn't like a movie is fine but the second someone says "we just disagree" or something to those lines the conversation has hit a dead end and my problem with that is those things matter so much more than how the force technically is meant to work or something like that.
He also asks why one bureaucratic group of people deciding what's canon is more right than another and suggests both are just as worthless, he says needing a committee to rubber stamp what's lore in your space fantasy movie is absurd. He's not actually defending the film on the premise that the committee decided it's canon therefore it's true besides in the context of people complaining the films go against the established canon because those people are usually using obscure guides and such. He literally shows an image of books detailing the canon being thrown into a garbage truck and shows that one book is just as good as another with a picture of one book being a drawing of a butt claiming this stuff was pulled out of his ass. Like you fundamentally got the wrong message from what he was saying. He's arguing against people who think committees deciding lore need to exist and saying since one does with these films what makes this one any more legitimate or illegitimate than whatever one that used to exist.
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sol_bad
Member
Force ghosts lie too.
Yoda never taught Anakin.
^___^
*EDIT*
With the above scene in mind, maybe Yoda Ghost did appear and told Luke that Kylo Ren is evil and he needs to be killed. Maybe that's why Luke nearly gave in to that option.
Obi tells Luke to kill Vader.
Yoda tells Luke to kill Kylo.
It's like poetry.
Yoda never taught Anakin.
^___^
*EDIT*
With the above scene in mind, maybe Yoda Ghost did appear and told Luke that Kylo Ren is evil and he needs to be killed. Maybe that's why Luke nearly gave in to that option.
Obi tells Luke to kill Vader.
Yoda tells Luke to kill Kylo.
It's like poetry.
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
It’s amazing how the globalists will attempt to character assassinate large swaths of people for not marching in lockstep with their tv “programming”.
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He starts the video complaining about "toxic fans". Nothing else in that video swayed me in the slightest. If that is the "best" you got, than wow...that is sad.
Honestly I'm fucking done with TLJ apologists who call anyone who doesn't adore that film toxic. It's a tired argument that doesn't actually say anything about the film.
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GreyHorace
Member
It's not just Star Wars sadly.
I'm under the impression that movies today must pass a social justice quota and get 'woke' approval. And anything that gets 'woke' approved must automatically be liked by the general audience and if not it's the toxic misogynist fanbase that must be blamed. Like this summer we had the release of Alita: Battle Angel, a film that me and a lot of people liked. Yet mainstream media called it an alt-right fantasy or some shit, because it dared to challenge their beloved Captain Marvel starring their queen Brie Larson.
But look at what's happening now. People are getting turned off by all this SJW nonsense and it's showing in the box office. The recent Charlie's Angels reboot plus Terminator Dark Fate bombed, which is unfortunate. Examples like that don't bode well for the future of female led films. Plus we had the new sneak peek at the new Ghostbusters, which is marketing itself as a direct continuation to the original movies with no connection to the awful 2016 reboot.
Back to Star Wars though, I think Disney and Lucasfilm are starting to change course because of the backlash to the SJW agenda. Turns out pissing off longtime fans of the franchise was not the smartest idea. That's why all these apologists to The Last Jedi are coming out of the woodwork. Their woke vision of Star Wars is slowly fading away in favor of a much more fan friendly approach, which is driving them nuts.
It's tough to say whether this more fan approved Star Wars vision will win out in the end,. But given the recent success of The Mandalorian, I think it's working. Already many fans are calling it the best Star Wars related media they've seen in years. Of course, the sjw backlash is out in full force attacking for it's lack of women or whatever excuse the can come up with.
But really, how can you hate on a series that features this little guy?
Darkmakaimura
Member
I like what you're saying but hasn't Disney been saying future SW content they want to go for more of a "mass appeal" and less for fans approach? And by "mass appeal" you can almost feel they think as mass appeal in their Hollywood bubble.It's not just Star Wars sadly.
I'm under the impression that movies today must pass a social justice quota and get 'woke' approval. And anything that gets 'woke' approved must automatically be liked by the general audience and if not it's the toxic misogynist fanbase that must be blamed. Like this summer we had the release of Alita: Battle Angel, a film that me and a lot of people liked. Yet mainstream media called it an alt-right fantasy or some shit, because it dared to challenge their beloved Captain Marvel starring their queen Brie Larson.
But look at what's happening now. People are getting turned off by all this SJW nonsense and it's showing in the box office. The recent Charlie's Angels reboot plus Terminator Dark Fate bombed, which is unfortunate. Examples like that don't bode well for the future of female led films. Plus we had the new sneak peek at the new Ghostbusters, which is marketing itself as a direct continuation to the original movies with no connection to the awful 2016 reboot.
Back to Star Wars though, I think Disney and Lucasfilm are starting to change course because of the backlash to the SJW agenda. Turns out pissing off longtime fans of the franchise was not the smartest idea. That's why all these apologists to The Last Jedi are coming out of the woodwork. Their woke vision of Star Wars is slowly fading away in favor of a much more fan friendly approach, which is driving them nuts.
It's tough to say whether this more fan approved Star Wars vision will win out in the end,. But given the recent success of The Mandalorian, I think it's working. Already many fans are calling it the best Star Wars related media they've seen in years. Of course, the sjw backlash is out in full force attacking for it's lack of women or whatever excuse the can come up with.
But really, how can you hate on a series that features this little guy?
Explosive Zombie
Banned
I'm done with TLJ haters that ignore entire arguments because of one thing that triggered them.
#Phonepunk#
Banned
at this point it's impossible to keep pretending this was "all planned out years ago". Ian himself was "surprised" when JJ shot an him an email "a year ago". given that this interview took place last year, this means that decision was made after TLJ. making it very likely that the whole bringing back the Emperor was a direct response to the TLJ backlash.
also, i know George's word means absolutely nothing anymore, but George Lucas told Ian point blank several times that "he's dead".
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Explosive Zombie
Banned
I'm fine with the idea it was planned since Kylo speaks to the Vader helm and asks him to shown him things again. Anakin redeemed himself and is no longer evil, the idea that he wasn't really speaking to Vader but someone else was definitely something you should have assumed. Not to mention killing Snoke seemed an indicator of Snoke's lack of importance.
Give me an argument that isn’t pathetic on its face.
Or is that considered “toxic” by your kind.
at this revionist history.People should have known that Snoke is pointless and Kylo was actually speaking to The emperor everyone assumed was dead, for obvious reasons.
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Explosive Zombie
Banned
Give me an argument that isn’t pathetic on its face.
Or is that considered “toxic” by your kind.
People should have known that Snoke is pointless and Kylo was actually speaking to The emperor everyone assumed was dead, for obvious reasons.
What is my kind by the way and shouldn't the onus be on you to prove why the 40 minute argument linked is pathetic on its face?
People should have known someone other than Vader spoke to Kylo because Vader is good now. They should have known Snoke lacked import due to his death. I didn't argue they should have known that meant the Emperor was still around, what you're doing is referred to a straw man.
Gotta say in a thread dedicated to the idea that TLJ haters aren't automatically alt-right I seem to be getting accused of being an SJW.
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Rian Johnson is the type of person who grew up picked on as a kid and couldn’t afford all the cool play sets that the other kids in the neighborhood had and wouldn’t let him play with.
Why do you think he trolled all the fan’s theories (a staple of Star Wars) with “your Snoke theory sucks”, and look at his Snoke result. Then he gets giddy like a school girl when someone hands him the Millennium Falcon toy that he was never able to have as a kid.
He never grew up, and took all that animosity out on the characters (Luke and Hamill being pissed and outspoken anyone?) and the fans with flushing shit down the proverbial toilet.
Why do you think he trolled all the fan’s theories (a staple of Star Wars) with “your Snoke theory sucks”, and look at his Snoke result. Then he gets giddy like a school girl when someone hands him the Millennium Falcon toy that he was never able to have as a kid.
He never grew up, and took all that animosity out on the characters (Luke and Hamill being pissed and outspoken anyone?) and the fans with flushing shit down the proverbial toilet.
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#Phonepunk#
Banned
yes, make the main mystery villain of your new trilogy pointless, what a great idea! /s
this is the main reason i am skipping IX. he straight up proved it was pointless. good job! now i know there is no point to watching these pieces of trash.
i swear watching these movies is like participating in a shell game.
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Vicetrailia
Member
Rey isn't a great Mary-Sue, that feels like a cheap argument in the first movie. Yes she's naturally gifted, resilient, and strong, but also doesn't believe that she's the hero, looks to others to lead, has confidence in others but not herself, and is a passive protagonist. For all her talents and some weirdness about the dark/light balance that elevates her powers, she falls forward a lot.
I'm waiting for her to hit her stride, to be solidly confident and actually become a Mary-Sue, lol.
The second movie was garbage overall, but hopefully this one is great.
I'm waiting for her to hit her stride, to be solidly confident and actually become a Mary-Sue, lol.
The second movie was garbage overall, but hopefully this one is great.
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-Arcadia-
Banned
The Emperor looks like he’s about to bust out a cracking Digital Foundry analysis.
#Phonepunk#
Banned
not really shocking that CNN peddles this fake news but really shitty how the reporter must have done zero looking into this whole "Russian trolls" bullshit before printing it as news, even if he used the conspiratorially minded dodge "indeed, what role?"
if you read the actual report, which is just some paper some guy wrote while he was in school, you may be shocked to discover the total number of "Russian trolls" discovered by this global search of 1237 Tweets was 16. the entire conspiracy about Russian trolls manipulating the US is down to 16 Twitter accounts! this comes to 1.2% of total tweets. small minority indeed!
of course the media loves to hate Russia, and savor any opportunity to smear Trump, so they will keep running w this fake narrative for as long as they can.
perhaps people find it mindblowing that someone in Russia would have a negative thing to say about a massive globally popular film. doubly so that 1 out of 100 Twitter accounts would qualify as "toxic". ah, but these are invalid opinions, we have to invent some ridiculous conspiracy to discount them. LOL
The backlash against "The Last Jedi," the eighth movie in this particular series, turned inordinately vitriolic. While there are legitimate questions about how representative those voices are -- and indeed, what role Russian trolls and political provocateurs played in dragging the comments into the sewer -- the cacophony from social media has at times made it easier to simply tune out those voices rather than engage them.
'The Rise of Skywalker' takes flight after the rise of the 'Star Wars' trolls
'The Rise of Skywalker' takes off after the rise of the 'Star Wars' trolls, after the backlash generated by 'The Last Jedi'www.cnn.com
if you read the actual report, which is just some paper some guy wrote while he was in school, you may be shocked to discover the total number of "Russian trolls" discovered by this global search of 1237 Tweets was 16. the entire conspiracy about Russian trolls manipulating the US is down to 16 Twitter accounts! this comes to 1.2% of total tweets. small minority indeed!
Using the Botometer mentioned in the Method section, 11 out of the of 206 accounts expressing
negative sentiments were identified as bots.
I identified 33 of the 206 negative accounts as trolls and/or sock puppets. Besides
meeting a majority of the detection criteria mentioned in the methods section, these accounts
would mostly tweet or retweet right-wing messages alongside their attacks on Rian Johnson and
The Last Jedi. All of these troll/sock puppet accounts were created – or became active after being
dormant for months or years – during the study period, most of them around the time when The
Last Jedi opened in theaters and the first negative fan reactions began being posted to Twitter.
This may indicate that the accounts were created or revived specifically for trolling behavior
related to The Last Jedi or using that debate as a platform for activities related to other subjects.
16 of these 33 troll/sock puppet accounts appear to be Russian trolls,
(PDF) Weaponizing the haters: The Last Jedi and the strategic politicization of pop culture through social media manipulation.
PDF | Political discourse on social media is seen by many as polarized, vitriolic and permeated by falsehoods and misinformation. Political operators... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGatewww.researchgate.net
of course the media loves to hate Russia, and savor any opportunity to smear Trump, so they will keep running w this fake narrative for as long as they can.
perhaps people find it mindblowing that someone in Russia would have a negative thing to say about a massive globally popular film. doubly so that 1 out of 100 Twitter accounts would qualify as "toxic". ah, but these are invalid opinions, we have to invent some ridiculous conspiracy to discount them. LOL
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InterMusketeer
Member
No, I meant before that. You know, before Luke went to kill his nephew. When he was actually training a new generation of jedi. Why didn't he communicate with the Force ghosts then to ensure people wouldn't turn to the dark side again? Wasn't that the objective of the Forst ghosts all along? Wouldn't they show up again when the galaxy is in great danger again?
They probably should've changed the plot for the movies and planned ahead better so it actually makes sense within the context of the world.
So you're saying our discussion is an outlier?
I'm confused. Didn't you say movies should stick to their own logic? That's it's fair to criticize poor internal consistency? Star Wars TLJ isn't a stand-alone film. It had 7 prior movies and several TV-shows and other stuff it needed to take into account. If you don't keep track of the "rules" of that universe, you get bad movies with bad internal logic. You brought that up, and yet you agree with his point that having a lore team is kind of ridiculous? I don't get it.
Explosive Zombie
Banned
I would assume before that he received a warning about Kylo Ren from the Force ghosts.
But Lucas did put these ideas in there from the start, the Force ghosts specifically tell Luke there are things he must do without them. They also talk about the perils of trying to know the future.
One person put me on ignore and another turned off a video argument because of something silly said in the first few minutes, that you're still trying to engage me does make this an outlier conversation just within this thread.
A lot of the rules people use to judge TLJ aren't based on what's actually canon, keep in mind when Disney took over they made all the EU non-canon. The OT didn't set up many actual rules for how things work, either, the Force did whatever the person needed it do in the OT. The prequels commit similar tricks, like having Jedi move super fast to escape a threat in one scene but not in another where such a thing would be convenient. I do think movies should follow their own internal logic but many things people cite as flaws have nothing to do with actual things said in the film series, like saying the lightspeed ram goes against the lore... how so? It was actually done before in one of the shows (don't recall if that show is still canon) and there's absolutely nothing in prior films to suggest it'd be impossible or wouldn't cause such damage. In fact if you watch the OT they never enter light speed without a good amount of clear space in front of them. When it comes to the internal logic of how the force works the force is described in this film much the same as it was by Yoda in Empire. Those two explanations don't sit perfectly well with how the prequels treated the force but I'd hate a new film to be bound by the logic of bad movies like the prequels, especially since the prequels often contradicted the much better OT.
sol_bad
Member
So when you were a kid you asked about the Emperor's oirigin?
Who he is?
Where he is from?
How and why he came to power?
What his relationship with Vader is?
It makes no fucking sense that people would cry over not knowing more about Snoke.
I saw episode 7, I'll admit that I was excited to find out more about him. But then when he was killed in 8 I realised that that question won't be answered. I was upset for maybe 30 seconds and then the film continued on. When the film ended I told my wife that it was disappointing that we didn't find out more about him but a few hours later I was over it and realised that it doesn't matter who he is. He is not what the film is about.
Explosive Zombie
Banned
I gotta be honest, when he got killed I nearly cheered. I didn't find him interesting and didn't care where he came from, I thought he was legit boring. That said if we don't get some origin stuff on Kylo in Rise I might freak out, I wanna know why the Knights of Ren are seemingly gone and maybe even how Snoke first got a hold of him (though the second part is less important). I also obviously want an explanation for Palpatine being alive but part of me just expects it's going to have something to do with the Sith having a different after death power than the Jedi, like how Jedi get to be force ghosts.
Darkmakaimura
Member
Didn't Lucas plan for a prequel trilogy during or after the OT?
I remember talk of prequels and Vaders origin as far back as the 80s.
Explosive Zombie
Banned
There would be talk because he changed the name of Star Wars to Episode IV: A New Hope when it hit video, so obviously people always wondered where 1-3 were. But people were pretty content with the OT for the 16 years it took to get a prequel.
InterMusketeer
Member
I just don't find that believable.
They could've had the exact same thing happen, as long as one of Luke's pupils hadn't turned evil by his own failures. Yoda, Anakin and Kenobi standing by idly while Luke fucks up all they've fought for doesn't make any sense to me. If Snoke was just off somewhere in the galaxy, finding his own pupil somehow, it would've made more sense to me.
I guess. Maybe people are sensitive, but then I'd argue people who like the ST are pretty sensitive to criticism as well. Depends on your PoV.
I agree, but on the other hand the Force becomes more defined with each scene it's used in. After 7 movies, it's mostly clear what abilities the Force grants. While the prequels showed more different techniques, it was also set in a time during which the jedi were a large, powerful organisation, so it made sense to expand upon it. The sequels are different. The jedi are dead (I mean, it's called The Last Jedi) so any flashy new techniques need explanation in order for me to accept it. Other plotholes (Like not using an ability when it'd make sense) should just be avoided as much as possible.
Explosive Zombie
Banned
I do.
Why do you assume it was Luke's failures that made him evil and not him simply being poisoned by Snoke somehow? On top of that the films seem to be arguing balance in the force (and quotes from Lucas btw) doesn't mean you wipe out the Sith, so Kylo's turn to the dark side is almost a guaranteed occurrence with so few on the dark side of the force at the time. Luke was also possibly going to fuck everything up when he went to confront Vader in ROTJ, what if he had joined him? They sat idly by for that and even told him they would. The level of interventionism the force ghosts partake in has always been limited in the series.
Except the EU has shown us all sorts of force powers not used in those 7 films you mention and the EU is usually praised by most people and not nitpicked for silly things like a new force power being used. Why would one force power need an explanation when another has none? They never explain any of the powers in any of the films... ever. Also not doing something when you think a character should isn't a plot hole, because they're humans and make mistakes and don't always know exactly what should be done. It'd be like saying it was a plot hole in my gaming experience when I forgot to use my super ability at the right time.
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sol_bad
Member
This makes no sense. As far as we know, the Jedi have been around for hundreds or thousands of years. That's a long time. And at the end of episode 3 Yoda tells Obi-Wan that Qui-Gonn has learnt a new technique. This new technique is obviously to become a force ghost.
So thousands of years later it's OK to create a new power but 60 years later it is not OK?
InterMusketeer
Member
Okay. I guess you're way more easily convinced than me then. Sure, Anakin sees that his grandson is tempted by the dark side and he just sits there, picking his nose, because Force ghosts are pretty hands-off in their approach to guiding and helping people. Let's be real: It's just a plothole they hadn't considered.
It doesn't matter how he turns evil. All that matters is that the ghosts don't try to prevent this, but that they do show up after, when it's convenient to the plot.
I never understood the Force like that. Bringing balance to the Force has always been the destruction of the sith, because sith use the force for selfish reasons, whereas jedi don't. I don't know when this idea that there HAS to be a dark and light side started, but it's not from the OT and PT.
I don't like this concept anyway. If it were true why did Luke decide to give up right when the dark side became strong again, leaving the people in the galaxy to suffer under its reign? Even his own actions in TLJ don't make sense in that context. What, he's just going to die and hope that the dark side goes away by itself? Ridiculous.
Yoda and Kenobi were dead. Of course they couldn't fight Vader. Luke was their only hope. It was the best plan they had. I don't see how that compares to WELL WE DIDN'T KNOW FOR SURE IF KYLO WAS GONNA TURN EVIL SO WE JUST FUCKED OFF BYEEEEEEE
I don't know shit about the EU and judge the films by themselves. I've got nothing to do with what or how anyone else criticizes in the movies, the EU or elsewhere.
Nahh, that's just crappy writing.
Yes. At this point the jedi are dead. Research of the force has slowed to a crawl. Who's gonna come up with new techniques? There's only Kylo and Rey, and Rey at the very least is pretty inexperienced since she's received no teaching or training. It should be explained how and when new techniques were invented, yes.
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#Phonepunk#
Banned
The prequels were both improvised and based on concepts decades old that evolved over time. He teased prequels (“young days of Obi Wan”) soon after the release of the first movie, but many prequel ideas predate the OT.
Mace “Windy” and “Jedi Bendu” “Padawan learners” were concepts first recorded in 1973 when it wasn’t even Star Wars but titled “Journal of the Whills”. FWIW Lucas has stated that the Whills would play a role in his sequel trilogy. The concept of Jedi more as swashbuckling action hero cops derived from the early drafts as well.
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sol_bad
Member
You're going to assume that force ghosts didn't appear. I'm going to assume that force ghosts did appear for Kylo and Luke but whatever they said didn't work or help the situation.
The very word "balance" means there has to be a light and dark. If the galaxy is filled with light and zero dark, that's not balanced at all. Dark and light need to live in conjunction with each other. Bearing in mind, everything we know about the force is from the perspective of the Jedi and/or the Sith. It would be nice to get perspectives from other angles.
Luke already fought this fight once before and it didn't help the galaxy. The fact that he was about to kill his grand son, there is the possibility that he could turn to the dark side himself, it's nearly happened in the past and it could potentially happen again. Ghost Yoda helps Luke realise that the constant fighting has not brought balance to the force, the constant fighting is part of their failure, part of the Jedi's failure. Luke doesn't hope that the dark side will away itself, he hopes that Rey can figure out the correct thing to do. Forge a new path that the Jedi never forged themselves.
And writing about humans being illogical is bad writing? That's new to me.
InterMusketeer
Member
If Anakin couldn't prevent Ben from turning evil, that would be such an important event to the plot that it absolutely HAS to be shown. That's not something they can just ignore.
As far as I understand it, Lucas has said that the dark side must exist, or that it can't cease to exist (Just like how day and night must exist), but that people can't draw power from it like the sith do. I'd say it's pretty obvious in the OT: The (ab)users of the dark side (IE Vader and the Emperor) need to be destroyed. That's the only way to bring balance to the Force. This matches with what we know of the sith: They're all violent assholes that leave behind a trail of death and suffering. There's no reason for us to assume dark side users have to exist.
I mean, that's what TLJ would have us believe. But is it actually true? None of the other movies support this conclusion. Fighting the sith helped plenty of people. The jedi are protectors of peace and defeat evil. When they're gone, evil triumphs.
No??? We're talking about the intentions of Luke here! He hid himself and awaited death, because he wanted the jedi to end. That means he made the conscious choice to have sith run around killing people while he waited for death. When Rey showed up he refused to help her and sent her away. He didn't hope at all for someone to come along to figure shit out. He thought he had already figured it all out. That's why he was a hermit!
If jedi warriors don't use their abilities when it could save themselves or their allies because they 'forgot' then that's bad writing, yes.
It's like having an action scene where a character forgets to use their gun in a gunfight or something. Just show the gun jamming or whatever and the issue's solved. Failing to do so and chalking it up to 'forgetting' or 'making a mistake' is actually retarded.
Explosive Zombie
Banned
I don't think you know what a plot hole is.
What should the ghosts have done to try and prevent it, in specific?
It actually is from the PT because they specifically address the idea that their prophecy of Anakin bringing balance by destroying the Sith is possibly a misread prophecy. After all what's balanced about only people on the light side existed? Luke gave up because he caused Kylo to switch sides and realized the way of the Jedi was the way of failure, at the height of their power they allowed Anakin to be taken to the dark and the entire Jedi council was decimated and then he repeats their folly. He sees that this is the legacy of the Jedi and decides to sit it out. Thinking Luke is wrong to do so isn't exactly an astute observation considering the lesson Luke learns in the film is that he was wrong.
Yeah I'm not seeing what you think should have happened with the ghosts in regards to Kylo turning. The ghosts don't see the future, they specifically have said trying to know the future is fraught with peril. The most that could have happened is they said "Kylo is turning to the Dark side" which would just lead to the same scene we got.
If that's true then I can't tell what you want.
It's actually not and if it is then you pretty much consider the entire saga written crappily.
You didn't really pay attention to the film I guess since Kylo and Rey's ability to meet each other like that was Snoke's doing, he admits to it, he's clearly an old and experienced Sith, they show him toss Rey around the room like a ragdoll, his power is immense. If you're complaining about Luke force projecting himself that's also a weird complaint considering he was a Jedi master for 30 years before closing himself off.
Edit: Imma respond to your other post, too...
How is what the force ghosts possibly attempted prior an important event in the plot? It's backstory. In the plot Kylo is already evil, just like there's already a First Order, this isn't unlike how when the original Star Wars began Vader was already evil and there was already an Empire. It is not a plot hole that we don't see how these things come into being.
But there is reason for us to assume dark side users have to exist, because the greater the imbalance in the force the more likely a powerful dark side person comes into being, this is now text thanks to the prequels existing. I'd love to see the specific Lucas quote that no one should be a conduit for the dark side, btw.
If the answer is always to fight the Sith then why at the end of Revenge of the Sith do Yoda and Obi-Wan go into hiding? Why does fighting and beating Anakin actually make things worse? Why is Luke's victory in Return of the Jedi NOT fighting his father?
Yeah, agreed here, Luke was trying to remove Jedi from the equation, he even calls it vanity to believe the light dies with the Jedi.
Man, I'm going to say again you don't get what a plot hole is. The more powerful Jedi powers come at a cost to the person using them and aren't just things you whip out for the Hell of it. I'm not even sure what you're arguing with this anyways, what specific force power should have been used when, exactly? I can't figure out what your actual complaint relates to in specific.
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InterMusketeer
Member
See, I think this is where we're not connecting in this discussion. I don't think TFA is similar to ANH at all, and they're not given the same freedom.
TFA is a sequel. It's the follow-up to what we see at the end of episode 6. The emperor is dead, the empire has fallen, and Anakin is good now. All's well. There's no more evil dudes, the Force ghosts appear and look happy, as if to tell "It's gonna be okay now" to both Luke and the audience. It is a happy ending, and has been for decades. What happens in the EU doesn't matter, I'm strictly talking about the movies.
So when Disney comes along and tells us: "Well, actually, it wasn't a happy ending!" they better make sure they have a real good explanation for why that is. They don't. The First Order just exists suddenly. Doesn't matter how, it's not important enough to tell. Kylo is evil, doesn't really matter how, that's just how it is. There's a Resistance too, and Snoke came out of nowhere, and Legolas is shooting a bazooka at the UFOs that appeared after RotK. Because that's just how it is! Stop asking questions!
Apparently you can just accept the state of the universe as it is in TFA. You see it as a starting point of a new story. But to me what happened before TFA is important because it is VITAL to understanding the old beloved characters from the OT. If they failed in creating the future they, and we all envisioned for decades, we need to know why! We don't get to know, and it just comes off as lazy writing. It doesn't give the characters the respect they deserve, and isn't that the point of having them in the first place?
Explosive Zombie
Banned
TLJ was majorly about why they failed and why these things happen again and again. It was not just illuminating on the role of cycles and failure in our lives but it served as a meta commentary for what it means to resurrect a franchise that ended. These are some of the main things that make it interesting. This is why we're at cross purposes, though, because you're strictly literal about everything and aren't looking at what the films have to say for real. You need literal enactments of how a First Order came into being (why would showing the scattered forces of the Empire being reassembled under new leadership be better than just assuming that occurred?) or how Snoke got a hold of Kylo (Lucas always said it was like poetry, it rhymes, so just assume a similar situation to Anakin if you need to) and even under your need for the literal and the idea that Disney betrayed a happy ending is the fact that Lucas himself had plans to betray it, including his spec scripts for a new trilogy that he gave to Disney. The only reason he didn't film it, as said by HIM, was because he didn't want to just get yelled at by the fanbase more. The fan base is the reason Disney is in control of the franchise, they reap what they sow and for some of us that's better movies than Lucas has given us in 3 decades.
Darkmakaimura
Member
I just marathoned the series except RO and TLJ and seeing them all again I really enjoyed the prequels.
Honestly just wish the ST was either done by Lucas or never done at all and we had the EU back in a gray area if not just for the first two KOTOR games.
InterMusketeer
Member
I don't look for meta commentary in my SW films, no. And a lot of people seem to agree.
So what did they have to say then? What does TLJ have to say?
Maybe I wouldn't be complaining about any of this stuff if the new characters and plot were interesting to me. But they're not. The old characters are retroactively ruined, in the same way Anakin ruined Vader. Star Wars is just a very fragile thing it seems. There's just too much money to be made. They can't leave it alone.
Oh you mean the one Disney threw out and didn't use? What's that have to do with the lazy and clumsy ST we got?
I mean, that's fair enough. I guess he thought people would hate it again. Maybe if he started making good SW films again, people wouldn't be disappointed with him? Lucas has had high highs in terms of fan response, but low lows too. People have high expectations because they adore is early films. I don't think people just want to hate him for the sake of it. If that were the case they'd hate the OT too.
But for most they're just bad movies with boring characters and a nonsensical plot. I guess that's just the conclusion we'll come to then. We're so close now to the ST ending, that I don't think it's worth examining details anymore. Only a few more hours, perhaps a day, 'till we know what this new trilogy was all about.
sol_bad
Member
My brain just can't comprehend how someone could have watched the OT in the 70's/80's and be completely fine not knowing who the Emperor was or how the Galactic Empire came to be and be fine with it for 20+ years. And if we never ever got the prequel trilogy, people would still be perfectly fine not knowing these facts.
Speaking of the prequel trilogy, it's the same thing. No one ever asked how the Separatists came to be so powerful in episode 2 and no one asked where the fuck Count Dooku came from or when he became Palpatine's right hand man.
Then that same person needs all these intricate in-depth details about the First Order and Snoke. It boggles my mind.
Episodes 2, 4 and 7 are all simple concepts and set-ups, the finer details aren't required.
Speaking of the prequel trilogy, it's the same thing. No one ever asked how the Separatists came to be so powerful in episode 2 and no one asked where the fuck Count Dooku came from or when he became Palpatine's right hand man.
Then that same person needs all these intricate in-depth details about the First Order and Snoke. It boggles my mind.
Episodes 2, 4 and 7 are all simple concepts and set-ups, the finer details aren't required.
Explosive Zombie
Banned
I didn't go into the film because I thought it'd have meta commentary but I don't see how it doesn't add to it.
Most art is up for interpretation but a lot of what it says is text, not subtext, stuff about learning from the past, from your mistakes, from your failures instead of wallowing in them. Luke was wrong to shut himself off and believe no good could come from continuing just as Kylo is wrong to think the entire past should be destroyed. Learning from failure is the main theme, though, as every main character experiences failure and is forced to grow from that experience. There's also the idea of myths not living up to their mythological status but it's important they try to anyways because the myth is so important, hence the ending with Luke, what he did is the stuff of myth at the end now, only a select few know exactly what he did, to everyone else he may as well have been walking on water. With Rey we get into some of that meta commentary, while a message about self reliance and not looking to others to define you is just a good message in a meta sense it's about how you don't need to be a Skywalker to be special in this universe. There's more the film has to say, stuff about slavery, commodification and stuff that makes the universe more grey than black and white among other things I may not be thinking of.
I didn't think the prequels ruined the OT because they did such a poor job lining the prequels up with the OT (Ewan MacGregor must just age really poorly in 20 years) that I can so easily pretend they're not canon. Like I don't sit watching the OT thinking "man isn't it funny that Anakin built C-3P0?" I think of the prequels as poorly made fan fiction because at this point that's what George is to me, a fan, a fan of something that only worked due to the collaboration of other smarter people than him. People like to say that's all JJ and Rian are, fans, but both have made far superior films to any of the prequels and they're honestly more consistent films than Return of the Jedi though I still prefer that.
You're saying Disney didn't use his spec script about Luke secluding himself on an island due to dealing with the dark side and find redemption through training a young female Jedi? He even gave them concept art that looks like the island used in TLJ. Look into it.
Every Star Wars film since 1999 has upset some subset of the fan base, that's just facts. Even Empire at release had people not liking it (both it and Return made a decent amount less than the first film). And Return endured decades of people complaining about things like Ewoks. There is no Star Wars film anyone could make that isn't going to cause backlash at this point because the fan base is too large and possibly the most entitled fan base in existence.
I think "most people" is a gross overstatement with nothing to really back it up.
MilkyJoe
Member
The entire fucking movie could have been undone with a flanking manoeuvre, the oldest military tactic devised. The movie was a bag of shit and all the walls of text you can spew are not changing that.
Explosive Zombie
Banned
The entire fucking movie could have been undone with a flanking manoeuvre, the oldest military tactic devised. The movie was a bag of shit and all the walls of text you can spew are not changing that.
The tactics of the First Order were arrogant and complacent. They knew the rebels would run out of fuel and slowly succumb to them and so didn't try anything advanced. It was hubris, just like hubris prevented Snoke from seeing his death coming. The way you guys judge movies is legitimately obnoxious.
Fnord
Member
Like many things SJWs can't have a reasoned argument with, they just push out the "alt-right/nazi/-phobe/-ist" slurs in its general direction and hope it sticks, There's nothing alt-right, homophobic, sexist, nazi...ish(?), or anything of the sort about The Fandom Menace. Never has been. It's basically just a loose collection of Star Wars fans that were put out at the tripe that Rian Johnson released in The Last Jedi, and his and Disney's push back against that criticism. It has grown from there.
I swear to God the defensive arguments people make for this movie are just hillarious
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Fnord
Member
I came out of TLJ not really liking it, but not really hating it. Over the course of the next 24 hours, I had come to hate it. And this was before I'd seen any online reactions to it.
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