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[martino]

Yeah but BotW was also mostly marketed as a Switch launch title. There's still a surprising number of people who don't know the game is on the Wii U too.

MS seems to be about making SURE people are aware it's on both. Which may also be why they're saying "the console is just called Xbox" now.

yes it's a good thing on revenue per game...but i ,too, can't see how it will help them build a correct share of next gen console

 

[SLB1904]

Not sure what any of this has to do with what I said.

Let go of the war, so you can think straight.

What war? Stating the obvious is war now?
Im ms customer as well i use gamepass on pc. Gears 5 was one the games i loved this year.

Some of you pretending to care about tHe CoNsUmEr it gets annoying
We are an entusiast forum. The casual consumer dont consume what we hardcore do.
They only care about if players in fifa looks closer to the real thing.

Everyone will be acused of fanboy. Because we dont pretend to agree with everything thiese companies do

 

[Pimpbaa]

Again, plenty of devs have come out to say, your premiss is wrong.

Games are scalable.

Games are scalable to a point. You can up the resolution, textures, and other non cpu intensive graphical effects. But if you are designing a game around say a Ryzen cpu, using it for better AI, physics, massive increase in draw calls. That isn't easily scalable. When you are going from Jaguar to Ryzen, there is massive increase in CPU performance. Any game designed for for the Ryzen cores would have to be redesigned for Jaguar cores, which would result in massive differences in gameplay (less enemies on screen, simpler physics, braindead AI, less complex backgrounds, and anything else CPU bound).

 

[Psykodad]

No, because releasing games that run on PS4 as well as PS5 massively expands the number of people who can purchase the game and therefore the amount of money they can earn from that game. It's the difference between offering a product to a pool of 120 million people vs. a pool of 10 million people.

That's why I said they'd be shooting themselves in the foot if they released all exclusives on PS5 only. It has nothing to do with jumping ship or going to Xbox. It has to do with potential sales for the game.

Like launch titles sales only happen on day 1.

Exclusives are an investment to secure early sales and mindshare, as well as differentiating the newest console.

You want most of those 120M PS4 owners to move over to PS5 as quickly as possible.
Releasing every game on PS4 too is counterproductive.

And 3rd parties will release crossgen games anyway, so it's not like PS4 owners will be completely ignored.

 

[Humdinger]

Like launch titles sales only happen on day 1.

Exclusives are an investment to secure early sales and mindshare, as well as differentiating the newest console.

You want most of those 120M PS4 owners to move over to PS5 as quickly as possible.
Releasing every game on PS4 too is counterproductive.

I didn't say that. I said that releasing every exclusive on PS5 would be shooting themselves in the foot. I'm in favor of releasing some exclusives on PS5 only.

 

[DaMonsta]

What war? Stating the obvious is war now?
Im ms customer as well i use gamepass on pc. Gears 5 was one the games i loved this year.

Some of you pretending to care about tHe CoNsUmEr it gets annoying
We are an entusiast forum. The casual consumer dont consume what we hardcore do.
They only care about if players in fifa looks closer to the real thing.

Everyone will be acused of fanboy. Because we dont pretend to agree with everything thiese companies do

You jumping to make all those random arguments is “the war” nothing you said in your post had anything to do with my post.

It was just a list of fanboy argument and counter arguments.

as I said there’s literally no reason to hold early gen games off last gen, other than to sell hardware.

Dont understand why some people would argue for forced obsolescence.

 

[Psykodad]

I didn't say that. I said that releasing every exclusive on PS5 would be shooting themselves in the foot. I'm in favor of releasing some exclusives on PS5 only.

Let's just wait and see what Sony announces first, but I think it's more likely than not that Sony will focus on PS5 from now.

PS4 will end with TLOU 2, Dreams and Ghost of Tsushima.
Sony can easily take the "risk".

 

[DaMonsta]

Games are scalable to a point. You can up the resolution, textures, and other non cpu intensive graphical effects. But if you are designing a game around say a Ryzen cpu, using it for better AI, physics, massive increase in draw calls. That isn't easily scalable. When you are going from Jaguar to Ryzen, there is massive increase in CPU performance. Any game designed for for the Ryzen cores would have to be redesigned for Jaguar cores, which would result in massive differences in gameplay (less enemies on screen, simpler physics, braindead AI, less complex backgrounds, and anything else CPU bound).

Again, you made all this up.

We see countless examples of games being scalable across a wide variety of hardware.

Obviously there’s a pint where the concessions needed to make a game work on old hardware hurt the experience to a point where there’s no point in making the old gen version. That point will not be reached within the first couple years of the new consoles existence.

 

[SLB1904]

You jumping to make all those random arguments is “the war” nothing you said in your post had anything to do with my post.

It was just a list of fanboy argument and counter arguments.

as I said there’s literally no reason to hold early gen games off last gen, other than to sell hardware.

Dont understand why some people would argue for forced obsolescence.

thats exactly their purpose

go back and compare bf4 ps3 vs ps4.
and also think every cross-gen game sold more on the next gen system
ps360 died so fast because people were tired of the old ass tech

 

[Humdinger]

Let's just wait and see what Sony announces first, but I think it's more likely than not that Sony will focus on PS5 from now.

PS4 will end with TLOU 2, Dreams and Ghost of Tsushima.
Sony can easily take the "risk".

Yes, let's just see what Sony decides. They're in a better position to know than either of us. My guess is that they'll continue to release SOME exclusives that play on both PS4 and PS5, in order to take advantage of the massive install base, but that at least half of their exclusives will be PS5 only. That's really only a guess, though. Who knows.

 

[DaMonsta]

thats exactly their purpose

So why would you the consumer have a problem with a publisher continuing to support the old hardware, at the risk of slowing down adoption of new hardware?

Seems something that should be advocated for. PS4 is still selling pretty well. Lots of people bought a PS4 for Christmas this year. You think it’s a good thing thing they might not be able to play Spider-Man2?

 

[Self High Five]

No, because releasing games that run on PS4 as well as PS5 massively expands the number of people who can purchase the game and therefore the amount of money they can earn from that game. It's the difference between offering a product to a pool of 120 million people vs. a pool of 10 million people.

Check the npd threads from 2014 & 2015. Outside of some outliers, game sales from last gen systems were a fraction compared to PS4 & XB1. Just because there is a 160 million PS360 systems sold doesn't mean they're active.

 

[demigod]

Didn’t move any goalpost. Just showing how these narratives change based on the situation.

At the start of this gen Ryse was supposedly an example of a game being held back by starting development on last gen.

Now that same game is being brought up as an example of the benefits of a “next gen” only game.

XSX won’t be gimped, you made that up.

Yeah you did. Ryse is not the same Kinect game, it still is not what I’m talking about. How many folks complained it was xbox one exclusive?

 

[tr1p1ex]

IS MS giving Sony an opening again? MS says next-gen games will work on old platforms. Sony says PS5 games only.

 

[Psykodad]

So why would you the consumer have a problem with a publisher continuing to support the old hardware, at the risk of slowing down adoption of new hardware?

Seems something that should be advocated for. PS4 is still selling pretty well. Lots of people bought a PS4 for Christmas this year. You think it’s a good thing thing they might not be able to play Spider-Man2?

Good strategy, hold back progression because people are lttp.
It's not like they had 7 years to buy a PS4 or anything.

 

[DaMonsta]

Good strategy, hold back progression because people are lttp.
It's not like they had 7 years to buy a PS4 or anything.

Who’s holding back progress?

where does this come from?

 

[Freedom Gate Co.]

There is absolutely no logic at all in not launching titles that can only be played on the XSX at it's launch. Therefore, why the hell would anyone buy one? It'll just crash it's ecosystem on takeoff making the PS5 the only legitimate choice.

People said this with the Xbox One even after the reversal and it turned out the best selling games on the console in its first year were shared with the 360 other than Forza and Dead Rising 3.

 

[SLB1904]

So why would you the consumer have a problem with a publisher continuing to support the old hardware, at the risk of slowing down adoption of new hardware.

Seems something that should be advocated for. PS4 is still selling pretty well. Lots of people bought a PS4 for Christmas this year. You think it’s a good thing thing they might not be able to play Spider-Man2?

new hardware adaptation will only slow down if its shit and guess what? dont have exclusives lol
and because games will have to be designed to fit on a system 10 times inferior

and i bet no one in the world wants to play spiderman 2 on ps4 lol

why you guys keep bringing people up like im supposed to feel sorry for them.

why Ferrari don't release a cheap car because you know i feel left out or even better cap the speed to 100mph...


are you trolling me?

you cant spin this

 

[DaMonsta]

Yeah you did. Ryse is not the same Kinect game, it still is not what I’m talking about. How many folks complained it was xbox one exclusive?

Wait, so a game that started development with last gen in mind, can in fact showcase new gen hardware?

Crazy, from reading this thread I woulda thought that was impossible.

 

[DaMonsta]

new hardware adaptation will only slow down if its shit and guess what? dont have exclusives lol
and because games will have to be designed to fit on a system 10 times inferior

and i bet no one in the world wants to play spiderman 2 on ps4 lol

why you guys keep bringing people up like im supposed to feel sorry for them.

why Ferrari don't release a cheap car because you know i feel left out or even better cap the speed to 100mph...


are you trolling me?

you cant spin this

The fuck?

Theres 100m PS4s out there.

You don’t think any of those people would want to play more Sony published games on PS4.

Y’all crazy in here, lol

 

[Psykodad]

Who’s holding back progress?

where does this come from?

Slowing down adoption will inevitably slow down progression in some way.

We have two consequtive gens that were really long, 7 years, and people are cheering about crossgen only games.
That sure is a good way to lead us to another long gen, all because of the poor souls who can't or won't transition early on.

Next-gen exclusives haven't ever been an issue to begin with.

 

[SLB1904]

The fuck?

Theres 100m PS4s out there.

You don’t think any of those people would want to play more Sony published games on PS4.

Y’all crazy in here, lol

i don't mean literally lol that would be absurd
is this your first generation?
who that hell wants spiderman 2 being held back by ps4?
i mean you have examples throughout the generations.
games got more vibrant bigger than the grey-brown era ps360
if that is not proof enough for you lol

 

[martino]

Slowing down adoption will inevitably slow down progression in some way.

industry and need to sell millions of copy do it than more than anything else
doing scalable game will not slow progress, it will focus it on some aspects more than others.

 

[DaMonsta]

Slowing down adoption will inevitably slow down progression in some way.

How so? Please explain.

We have two consequtive gens that were really long, 7 years, and people are cheering about crossgen only games.
That sure is a good way to lead us to another long gen, all because of the poor souls who can't or won't transition early on.

if the hardware can still play new games, why would you want arbitrary generation cutoffs?

Next-gen exclusives haven't ever been an issue to begin with.

In the past they made sense because the hardware architecture and the tools used to make games were very different across generations. And even then the majority of games released early in a gen were cross gen.

Today, it’s all iterative hardware and tools. Makes absolutely no sense to purposely exclude last gen hardware. Sony will seemingly be the only publisher to do this. Why is that a good thing to you?

 

[DaMonsta]

i don't mean literally lol that would be absurd
is this your first generation?
who that hell wants spiderman 2 being held back by ps4?
i mean you have examples throughout the generations.
games got more vibrant bigger than the grey-brown era ps360
if that is not proof enough for you lol

Who says it would be held back?

 

[bitbydeath]

Who says it would be held back?

Sony already demonstrated what it can do with PS5 hardware vs PS4 hardware and I’m not referring to the load times.

 

[SLB1904]

Who says it would be held back?

do you think ps4 can handle the same amount of character on the screen like ps5 or the same draw distance?

i mean seriously?

also crunch would be absurd

 

[DaMonsta]

do you think ps4 can handle the same amount of character on the screen like ps5 or the same draw distance?

i mean seriously?

No. Why would you think that?

 

[DaMonsta]

Sony already demonstrated what it can do with PS5 hardware vs PS4 hardware and I’m not referring to the load times.

What’s that stuff? And why can’t it be scaled back?

 

[Psykodad]

How so? Please explain.

The faster next-gen adoption goes, the faster last-gen can be dropped and developers can fully focus on just the newest hardware.

Talking about scalable games and how it possible on PC too and all that is nice, but the big AAA-exclusives far outweigh the vast majority of those games when it comes to production value and quality.
Same as how in principle exclusives should outshine 3rd party games.

Seriously, when did this all just change all of a sudden? 2 days ago?

if the hardware can still play new games, why would you want arbitrary generation cutoffs?

To speed up next-gen adoption.

In the past they made sense because the hardware architecture and the tools used to make games were very different across generations. And even then the majority of games released early in a gen were cross gen.

Today, it’s all iterative hardware and tools. Makes absolutely no sense to purposely exclude last gen hardware. Sony will seemingly be the only publisher to do this. Why is that a good thing to you?

It still makes sense in the console space of today, since we're still talking closed platforms.

Don't stick with old hardware, move on.

 

[SLB1904]

No. Why would you think that?

 

[bitbydeath]

What’s that stuff? And why can’t it be scaled back?

The speed at which the world is created resulting in much faster movements.

Scaling it back would make it quite a different game depending on how they leverage it to setup the missions.

 

[Tulipanzo]

Hearing some of the arguments in this thread, it's amazing how every single console ever has managed to have launch exclusives, including MS.

(Yes, even Stadia)

 

[DaMonsta]

The faster next-gen adoption goes, the faster last-gen can be dropped and developers can fully focus on just the newest hardware.

Devs always have the future in mind, beyond what current popular consumer hardware can do. That’s how we get new advancements.

Very few gamers have hardware that can handle 4K 60fps gaming with Ray Tracing, yet devs are more than ready to support those things when consumers are ready to adopt the hardware.

Talking about scalable games and how it possible on PC too and all that is nice, but the big AAA-exclusives far outweigh the vast majority of those games when it comes to production value and quality.
Same as how in principle exclusives should outshine 3rd party games.

This isn’t true at all. Nothing else for me to say, but you are factually wrong

Seriously, when did this all just change all of a sudden? 2 days ago?




To speed up next-gen adoption.



It still makes sense in the console space of today, since we're still talking closed platforms.

Don't stick with old hardware, move on.

Only makes sense from the console manufacturers standpoint.

You are advocating the benefit of a large corporation at the detriment of most of its customers.

 

[DaMonsta]

The speed at which the world is created resulting in much faster movements.

Scaling it back would make it quite a different game depending on how they leverage it to setup the missions.

This has been the case for open world games sense forever.

The old gen version would just have less stuff on screen, shorter draw distance, more aggressive LODs. Less resolution/frame rate, etc.

We see this happening with almost every game that comes out.

 

[spatialawareness]

"Scalability" and "Anti-consumer"...the two new words that are being grossly misused to protect your favourite mega corp lmao. Games are far more then resolution, nemesis system would not work on last gen, that's just one example, letting devs have more freedom and tools in the long run is always a good thing. Scalability is finite...not infinite. None of this was discussed until MS announced no XSX exclusives...how transparent.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

So when PS4 launched with games that didn't run on PS3 did people get this angry? I wasn't really around here at the time so would like to know if this is consistent behavior?

 

[bitbydeath]

This has been the case for open world games sense forever.

The old gen version would just have less stuff on screen, shorter draw distance, more aggressive LODs. Less resolution/frame rate, etc.

We see this happening with almost every game that comes out.

I wasn’t referring to any of that.
Fast loading worlds means Spider-Man can take faster forms of transport or even fling himself across the map in a short amount of time. It changes the game and is not something that can be toned down or removed.

 

[DaMonsta]

"Scalability" and "Anti-consumer"...the two new words that are being grossly misused to protect your favourite mega corp lmao. Games are far more then resolution, nemesis system would not work on last gen, that's just one example, letting devs have more freedom and tools in the long run is always a good thing. Scalability is finite...not infinite. None of this was discussed until MS announced no XSX exclusives...how transparent.

Nemesis system wouldnt work on last gen, yet the game was still cross gen and one of the most advanced games on current gen at the time released.

Seems devs actually can support multiple levels of hardware, and still push the higher end to its limits.

 

[DaMonsta]

I wasn’t referring to any of that.
Fast loading worlds means Spider-Man can take faster forms of transport or even fling himself across the map in a short amount of time. It changes the game and is not something that can be toned down or removed.

Again concessions to the world would allow them to make Spider-Man move at any speed they want him to.

 

[bitbydeath]

Again concessions to the world would allow them to make Spider-Man move at any speed they want him to.

Horizon had the same issue, we couldn’t ride flying dinosaurs because the hardware was simply not capable of it.

This technique would also become a thing of the past.

 

[DaMonsta]

Horizon had the same issue, we couldn’t ride flying dinosaurs because the hardware was simply not capable of it.

This technique would also become a thing of the past.

Not sure where you got the horizon info from, but plenty of open world games allow you to fly. If they wanted you to fly in HZD they would have put it in the game.

That technique will continue to be used because it’s a good technique and it allows the power to be used elsewhere.

 

[Psykodad]

Devs always have the future in mind, beyond what current popular consumer hardware can do. That’s how we get new advancements.

Ofcourse, otherwise there wouldn't be progression.

Very few gamers have hardware that can handle 4K 60fps gaming with Ray Tracing, yet devs are more than ready to support those things when consumers are ready to adopt the hardware.

Yeah, ready to. But then they will encounter the same problem the moment newer hardware releases, which is at a faster rate on PC than on consoles.
That's one of PCs downsides.

This isn’t true at all. Nothing else for me to say, but you are factually wrong

How am I wrong in saying that exclusives designed around one specific set of hardware should theoratically have better production value and quality than a game designed for multiple platforms and configurations?

Only makes sense from the console manufacturers standpoint.

You are advocating the benefit of a large corporation at the detriment of most of its customers.

Why? Because life is about choices and you can't have everything?

 

[bitbydeath]

Not sure where you got the horizon info from, but plenty of open world games allow you to fly. If they wanted you to fly in HZD they would have put it in the game.

That technique will continue to be used because it’s a good technique and it allows the power to be used elsewhere.

It was in one of their old interviews and that is just one example. Do you think the PS2 could run MAG with its 256 players?

 

[Snake29]

Horizon had the same issue, we couldn’t ride flying dinosaurs because the hardware was simply not capable of it.

This technique would also become a thing of the past.

It's a Technic what Star Citizen is also using called "Client Side object container streaming" and "Server side object container streaming".

Client Side Object Container Streaming allows for the dynamic seamless loading in or out of assets, textures, locations, ships and entities that are proximate to a player. The System has areas divided into nested containers that every object will sit inside and containers can sit within each other, they contain the information of what to “stream” in basically, this can be the stanton system, planet hurston, lorville and a room in the Hab Block there all being separate containers. CSOCS which premiered in Alpha 3.3 branch has seen a massive framerate rise and performance improvement for the game.

Server Side Object Container Streaming allows the Server to save and loadout areas when not being used, then load them back in when needed. This is for server efficiency but in the case of SQ42 the Client and Server are effectively both on the client PC so it’s still essential.

Long distance Objects can be partly loaded in if there is a reason to, like a ship scans them, this means that some of the entities data that is required can be loaded in BUT only what is required.

 

[DaMonsta]

Ofcourse, otherwise there wouldn't be progression.

right. There’s always weak and High end hardware on the market, yet we still get advances, so this idea that weak hardware does/could hold back stronger hardware is not based in reality.

Yeah, ready to. But then they will encounter the same problem the moment newer hardware releases, which is at a faster rate on PC than on consoles.
That's one of PCs downsides.

theres no “problem”

Devs are ready for new hardware adoption and they are still able to support long time customers.

How am I wrong in saying that exclusives designed around one specific set of hardware should theoratically have better production value and quality than a game designed for multiple platforms and configurations?

you didn’t say “theoretical”. You stated it as fact, while we have real world examples that disprove your “theory”

Why? Because life is about choices and you can't have everything?

Your “choice” to advocate forced obsolescence doesn’t benefit you.

Just wondering why you’d make that choice.

 

[DaMonsta]

It was in one of their old interviews and that is just one example. Do you think the PS2 could run MAG with its 256 players?

PS2 was not a system you could play most games online multiplayer on, but we have plenty examples of cross gen games that have different player counts across generations

 

[bitbydeath]

PS2 was not a system you could play most games online multiplayer on, but we have plenty examples of cross gen games that have different player counts across generations

Yes you could. Socom was incredibly popular there was no way that game could have had 256 players even with its weaker graphics.

 

[DaMonsta]

Yes you could. Socom was incredibly popular there was no way that game could have had 256 players even with its weaker graphics.

A more modern example would be battlefield 4.

Had larger player count, higher frame rate, and gameplay situations that could not be done on last gen. Yet a last gen version still existed, and it was probably the most advanced “next gen” game at launch.

Seems devs were able to support old hardware and innovate at the same time just fine at the transition of current gen.

 

[Psykodad]

Theres no “problem”

Devs are ready for new hardware adoption and they are still able to support long time customers.

Seems like a given.
But there aren't an abundance of PC games with the overall quality of the high profile console exclusives.

But we digress, I didn't intend to start a console vs PC discussion.
This is about PS5 exclusives vs XSX no exclusives.

You didn’t say “theoretical”. You stated it as fact, while we have real world examples that disprove your “theory”

I just assumed you were understanding that I wasn't talking in absolutes and facts.

And there are always exceptions to anything, but in general that "theory" stands.

Your “choice” to advocate forced obsolescence doesn’t benefit you.

Just wondering why you’d make that choice.

Why?
How do you think Sony got all the exclusive games/content we got to enjoy since they started Playstation?
And I'm not talking about just 1st party output.