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[StreetsofBeige]

Maybe i missed it, but did they say how long it could operate at that frequency? Seemed more like a sliding bar based on what is more optimal for what is being computed. He talked more about when needing to scale down for optimization, i must have missed the bit about heat/power or such limitation.

I might have missed the details too, but I "thought" I heard him say that boost mode was always on, so 2.2 ghz is doable at all times???

 

[Smaller than Atom]

The Wii? Hello????

I can already tell from your comment you clearly have a massive bias up your ass so I'm not going any further than this. You don't have a clue what you are talking about though. The only objective metric of "winning" a generation is by sales, so don't even try a "well uhhhh the Wii didn't really win" asspull.

If you take out the release part of that metric (which still isnt even true with that full statement as I already mentioned), pretty much every highest selling console that objectively "won" the sales competition is usually the weaker/weakest hardware. The PS4 (up until the Xbox One X's release) was the only sole exception. PS1, PS2, Wii, all were generally inferior in hardware aspects to the real competition, and yet they all sold like hotcakes. Why do you think??? Because consumers give a shit about games, not terraflop bullshit.

Wii dont count. It was a fad that caught on outside of gaming.

 

[The Pleasure]

Remember the last time Xbox definitively won the power game?

I don't know. I only recall broken DVD drives and plastic that cooked itself.

 

[Investor9872]

Xbox Series X and Xbox Platform -
Jump from playing your games on console, PC, mobile and can even stream from your console.
Xbox Game Pass.
Two (2) More Teraflops.
Higher CPU clock speeds.
Sustained CPU and GPU speeds.
Higher memory bandwidth.

If you had to purchase just one console, or buy one console first, the answer is extremely easy; the Xbox Series X!

And higher storage.

 

[Business]

Or one whole PS4 of extra power...

Ironic...

but how many Gamecubes?

 

[psorcerer]

But then it loads into the RAM.

Aaand?

 

[Yams]

Also clearly Microsoft knew this was happening prior... that’s why they made such a big deal about sustained locked clocks to the digital foundry guys.

Oh shit, you’re right. I wondered at the time why they bothered to point it out.

 

[Breakfast at Noon]

But it has exclusive games so who cares.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

I knew as soon as he started playing down numbers that they were on the defence.

Also quite possibly the most boring presentation I can remember, so much talk about SSD and audio, I mean I’ve never thought as audio as being an issue and Cerny himself said no developers asked for it , nice way to blow resources barking up the wrong tree
, could have took that down to 10 minutes or less.

Really disappointed there, I wanted ps1
And ps2 games to work, I don’t even get all my PS4 games working.

Really conflicted, I’d rather go Xbox next gem as I hated the multiplat bodge the PS3 got, But I’ve got so much money in the ps eco.

good job Microsoft

I knew it was going to be a flop too the second it was already more than 5 minutes on SSD as the opening topic.

I think the next spec revealed was 16gb GDDR6 in a flyby slide in 10 seconds.

Add those two together and that Oberon leak was looking good.

Then Cerny spent 5 minutes talking about TF not being that important anymore and that was the clincher. Then he said 10 tf.

 

[Dargor]

Well we'll know that when prices are revealed if they targeted the wrong place. You're assuming they're targeting power for price rather than price first power constrained.

Yeah, we really are at a point where only time will tell.

 

[megreotsugua]

Man, I think they'll need a pretty sizable price difference if they even want to compete. Its like they (sony and ms) targeted completely different things on this and sony targeted the wrong place.

From a marketing point of view, its so much easier to sell 12 than it is to sell 10. They'll have a tough job, thats for sure.

Not if PS5 is $399 and SXS is $499.

 

[Krappadizzle]

Is there really much of a difference between 12tf and 10tf? If its anything like upgrading from my GTX 1070 to an RTX 2070... its not very noticeable.

The difference between those 2 GPU's is about 1 tf. But the 2070 is capable of a lot more with it's additional hardware. Owner's of 1070+ cards weren't very incentivized to upgrade, because other than RT and Nvidia's a.i. supersampling, it just wasn't a huge leap in power. The 30xx series will see that margin jump from the 10xx series by close to 50%.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Xbox Series X and Xbox Platform -
Jump from playing your games on console, PC, mobile and can even stream from your console.
Xbox Game Pass.
Two (2) More Teraflops.
Higher CPU clock speeds.
Sustained CPU and GPU speeds.
Higher memory bandwidth.

If you had to purchase just one console, or buy one console first, the answer is extremely easy; the Xbox Series X!

Not really? If you have a powerful gaming PC, or plan on building one around the time of the Xbox launch, then there's little reason to own a Series X.

Also, it's going to come down to which exclusives you're more interested in.

Just about all of what you wrote also applies to Xbox One X vs. PS4 Pro, but no one really gives a shit.

 

[Bernkastel]

Looks like Raytracing better on Xbox series X. Strong arm emoji.

I remember when many posters here were quoting MS's "hardware accelerated ray-tracing" to mean software ray-tracing but slightly powered by hardware" and PS5 uses full hardware based ray-tracing.

 

[quest]

Is there really much of a difference between 12tf and 10tf? If its anything like upgrading from my GTX 1070 to an RTX 2070... its not very noticeable.

That is at max boost not when the clocks are normal or summer when it's hot. Then don't forget about 44% more rt hardware in the series x. The PS5 is significantly weaker.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

But then it loads into the RAM.

So the PS5 loads 100% faster into the RAM pool but XsX RAM bus speed is 20% faster so

Personally, I don't need anything more than an eyeball test. The video comparisons will tell the complete story. Spec-sheet is like following the announcement of which actor will play which role in an upcoming movie.

 

[Monkeyclone]

I like this video.

So, what do these specs tell us about launch price. If anything?

 

[Fbh]

Meh specs. Unless it's both really affordable and there's a big price difference with the series X this likely going from a near launch purchase to a "wait for some good exclusives and sale/price drop on the console".

My guess yesterday was that they would try to downplay the difference in specs with some tech talk and the usual "In theory...COULD maybe result in better performance"....which is what they seem to be doing with the SSD.

 

[GymWolf]

im not tech person myself, but a buddy of mine claims he is, and says the ps5 might actually be better and more powerful. Can someone let me know if he is right or wrong?

the IO throughput is so much higher than the Xbox that everything is going to load faster on the PS5. The RAM is also clocked higher so assets will load faster on PS5. The GPU runs at a higher frequency so the graphics calculations will be much faster on PS5. And the CPU frequency difference is .3 GHz, which is basically nothing.

your friend is in denial, just prepare a camomille for him.
also almost all the ram available for gaming on the sex is faster than ps5 ram...

 

[onQ123]

Cell BE lives!

 

[Jigga117]

I remember last gen when PS3 was hyped to be much more powerful than XBOX 360 before launch and it turns out it was the 360 that was ahead in the vast majority of multiplatform games. I'll be fine waiting thanks.

This is no where close to the same scenario.

 

[Ulysses 31]

Aaand?

 

[Coulomb_Barrier]

This hardware reveal is........actually game, set and match for PS5 this gen (I might make a thread).

36 CUs = cheaper BOM. Exclusive games. Who is going to buy Series X at $500 with no exclusives during a world recession?

Sony hasn't abandoned the near 4 million gamers in China/India/other. Worldwide dominance coming again.

Fly at me fanboys

 

[Romulus]

Out of 20 years, Sony had what, 3-4 years multiplatform superiority before X1X arrived? I don't think xbox will back out of this power focus mindset again for XSX 2 PS5 Pro either.. So add another 3-4 years in xbox's favor, more likely 8 with the mid gen enchanced consoles.

I actually see PS5 vs XSX as less of a difference between Xbox one vs PS4 though.
Far less. That was a 40% raw improvement, like if XSX was 14TF+ but it's more about the masses interpretion of powa.

 

[Snake29]

I remember when many posters here were quoting PS5 "hardware based ray-tracing" to mean software ray-tracing but slightly powered by hardware" and MS's uses full hardware ray-tracing.

Fixed

 

[Deleted member 17706]

im not tech person myself, but a buddy of mine claims he is, and says the ps5 might actually be better and more powerful. Can someone let me know if he is right or wrong?

the IO throughput is so much higher than the Xbox that everything is going to load faster on the PS5. The RAM is also clocked higher so assets will load faster on PS5. The GPU runs at a higher frequency so the graphics calculations will be much faster on PS5. And the CPU frequency difference is .3 GHz, which is basically nothing.

Not necessarily more powerful, but if the loading time business pans out, then it will allow for different game design and incredible loading times not possible on conventional SSD setups, which would be a differentiating feature. Honestly, a feature far more appealing than just 2 more teraflops.

 

[Arkam]

I might have missed the details too, but I "thought" I heard him say that boost mode was always on, so 2.2 ghz is doable at all times???

Thats what he says here.

Just before this he talks about why you would want to scale it down for efficiency.

 

[TheHighFlyingBirds]

Was hoping for some good news in these shitty times, but have to say looking at specs, im a little under whelmed when compared to the xbox. Think I might hold off getting the ps5 to see how it performs in real life especially with them clocks. If the ps5 isnt £100 cheaper then i can see xbox retaking the uk sales.

 

[quest]

Not if PS5 is $399 and SXS is $499.

Except there is not 100 dollar bom difference thanks Sonys cooling and uber expensive SSD. I would not be shocked if they had the same bom. MS cut costs on SSD and cooling. That dramless ssd will be so much cheaper than Sonys.

 

[Lort]

This hardware reveal is........actually game, set and match for PS5 this gen (I might make a thread).

36 CUs = cheaper BOM. Exclusive games. Who is going to buy Series X at $500 with no exclusives during a world recession?

Sony hasn't abandoned the near 4 million gamers in China/India/other. Worldwide dominance coming again.

Fly at me fanboys

Just a reminder that many in the industry say just like last console launch xbox will have better games .. only by a supposedly much bigger margin this time

 

[Evilms]

Where are we getting the ROP/TDP numbers from?

from techpowerup with last update

 

[Dee Dah Dave]

We gone from 1080pr to 10TFpr lmao!

 

[jakinov]

The SSD loads the game into the RAM. then the Xbox has faster bandwidth than ps5 for access to said ram.

Having very fast access to your RAM is great but there's diminishing returns in practice. It's fast enough that when you add more you stop getting the same level of effective benefit. It's great but it's not the biggest bottleneck. The strategy of most high performance computing applications today is about either having so much memory you don't have to ever deal with slower persistent storage or using super fast persistent storage.

PS5 games probably aren't going to look better (the difference is probably not going to be noticeable by most people unless it's side by side) but developer in theory can probably do more interesting things and provide an overall better user experience for both developers and gamers. The PS5 can theoretically replace 60-70% of what's in RAM in a second which is very cool.

Think of how Horizon Zero Dawn changes things when you turn the camera except on steroids:


Think of vastly different and dynamic cities with completely different building and people, objects and densities "instantaneously" being loaded in. Being able to "instantaneously" teleport from the snowy mountain region to a fire region, real-time in-game cutscenes that are flask backs feature drastically different maps, etc.

 

[John Day]

I’m interested in what’s going to be it’s price. $400? More likely $500?

 

[sdrawkcab]

Not really? If you have a powerful gaming PC, or plan on building one around the time of the Xbox launch, then there's little reason to own a Series X.

Also, it's going to come down to which exclusives you're more interested in.

Just about all of what you wrote also applies to Xbox One X vs. PS4 Pro, but no one really gives a shit.

Those Sony specs hurt, huh? LMFAO

 

[RaySoft]

I don't get all the disappointment? I thought it was quite revelutionairy in many ways. This wil change how games are made actually.
My guess is that most 3rd party devs, if given a choice, would rather develop for the PS5 than the Series X for that reason alone.
Hope Sony's pushing for $399 as well for that final nail in the coffin.

 

[Smaller than Atom]

I love how people are already drinking the boost kool-aid.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Those Sony specs hurt, huh? LMFAO

How could you get that impression? I only buy consoles for exclusives, because I play every multiplat title on my PC. I really don't give a shit about console specs, which is why I don't own an Xbox One X and spend most of my non-PC gaming time on Switch.

 

[Omega Supreme Holopsicon]

- XSX with ~20% more powerful GPU, not that bad BUT*

Series X has 20% more tflops than ps5.

But Cerny seems to suggest that being faster clocked means that other parts of the gpu could be 20% faster than a 10Tflops gpu running at 1.8Ghz, if I'm not mistaken.

They are basically giving theoretical peak clock speeds that will never be reached just to not look completely inferior to the XSX and still , with the unachievable (IMO) clock speeds

Cerny said majority of the time it will be at that speed, and can drop a few percent if need be depending on h/w features being used.

Even Cerny acknowledges a potential 10% drop from the peak clock speeds, and you know that he is sugarcoating things, that would bring the gpu basically at 9. something TFs.

Cerny says to reduce power by 10% it only takes a reduction of a few percent in frequency. Not a ten percent reduction in frequency.
Cerny also says that both cpu and gpu will be running close to max frequency the majority of the time. And as he said only a few percent drop in frequency is needed to lower power by 10%.

There's NO WAY it can hold that clock for any meaningful amount of time.

You're claiming Cerny is lying. But even the rx5700 can run sustained at 2.2Ghz without throttling on air. The ps5 dev kit looks like a giant heatsink. Which is why I always believed it was likely running at 2Ghz or higher.

To those that think transfer speeds will make a difference. It won't make a substantial difference in real world performance. Look at the samsung 870 ssd vs Samsung 970 nvme. The nvme is 7 times faster than ssd but real world performance there is only loading time decrease of only 1 or two seconds.

dude custom h/w equivalent to over 10 ryzen core performance, iirc, was used to abolish all bottlenecks and ensure that 100x faster than ps4 ssd difference actually became 100x in practice.

Yes but sony's intersection engines are running 20% faster which might not make that difference as big.

Maybe i missed it, but did they say how long it could operate at that frequency? Seemed more like a sliding bar based on what is more optimal for what is being computed. He talked more about when needing to scale down for optimization, i must have missed the bit about heat/power or such limitation.

he said majority of the time it'll run at that speed, in some circumstances could drop a few percent.

There's not a single PC GPU that can hold a clock speed so high.

The rx5700 can sustainably overclock to that speed without throttling and this is newer architecture that may be designed for high clocks.

 

[MilkyJoe]

.


how is this developer focused hardware? Optimisation is going to be harder on 5.

Dynamic resolution is going to be the the new blacl

 

[Trogdor1123]

I'm not making anything up. Anyone who knows anything about GPU hardware will tell you the same thing I am.

There's not a single PC GPU that can hold a clock speed so high.

You can choose to not believe me if you want but the truth about this will come out. You can expect Digital Foundry to be bringing up this issue too. There's not a single customization, no secret sauce part in the PS5 that will allow for it's GPU to run at 2.23GHz for anything beyond a brief instant.

No one is saying you are wrong, I am saying don't portray it as a known fact cuase you don't know. You are probably right but for goodness' sake don't pretend it's some absolute... Jeepers.

I'm more worried about heat and fan noise myself. Going to be stupid hot.

 

[Mihos]

Honestly, it looks like they looked at the system as a whole through a lens of diminishing returns... and concentrated on what was lowest on the pyramid.
I do the same on prioritizing engineering projects for my job. I don't work in marketing, but I do know what is best technically is not always the best for sales. I always attack bottlenecks, even if it is the least sexy project.

 

[Romulus]

VR utilizes a ton of resources and a 9.2TF console that can sometimes reach 10.3 isn't going to be enough for any kind of leap. Apparently, Sony not only wants the PS5 to be a failure but wants their VR system to flop too.

This is completely false. Current psvr is tied to a 1.8TF GPU and jaguar CPU. I frequent psvr reddit and have listened to devs, the CPU was one of the biggest hurdles.

Lifting the requirement to code for a 1.8TF GPU and an ancient tablet CPU will be absolutely huge.

 

[RaySoft]

Don't forget to mention that those also run slower than the PS5

 

[sinnergy]

PS5 decompressor can do 22Gb/sec max.

Xbox can load assets instantly.. what’s better who knows ...

 

[NickFire]

I'm still kind of shocked, in a bad way, by the size of the SSD. I was fully prepared for a power differential, but less than 1 TB and upgrade options still being developed is extremely concerning. If they are able to get games downloaded and ready to play (fully) in a couple to few minutes then no problem. But right now I'm wondering if the installed SSD will even hold 6 games. I imagine they will be getting bigger, and some of the space is probably taken up by OS.

 

[psorcerer]

Having very fast access to your RAM is great but there's diminishing returns in practice. It's fast enough that when you add more you stop getting the same level of effective benefit. It's great but it's not the biggest bottleneck. The strategy of most high performance computing applications today is about either having so much memory you don't have to ever deal with slower persistent storage or using super fast persistent storage.

PS5 games probably aren't going to look better (the difference is probably not going to be noticeable by most people unless it's side by side) but developer in theory can probably do more interesting things and provide an overall better user experience for both developers and gamers. The PS5 can theoretically replace 60-70% of what's in RAM in a second which is very cool.

Think of how Horizon Zero Dawn changes things when you turn the camera except on steroids:


Think of vastly different and dynamic cities with completely different building and people, objects and densities "instantaneously" being loaded in. Being able to "instantaneously" teleport from the snowy mountain region to a fire region, real-time in-game cutscenes that are flask backs feature drastically different maps, etc.

- gameplay built around teleportation
- fast vertical play: become a bird, then wolf, then human, then fish, instantly
- CG level assets for slow paced games: adventures, puzzles
- dense assets: full town block with each and every room modelled, loaded, complete with NPCs etc.
- etc. etc. etc.

 

[sinnergy]

Don't forget to mention that those also run slower than the PS5

And? Won’t make up the difference, it crunch that counts

 

[Bernkastel]

Fixed

Fixed what? This was few months back. A lot of GAFfers were sure that PS5 had a better solution.

PS5 hardware based Ray-Tracing vs Xbox Series X hardware accelerated Ray Tracing: Is there a difference in the tech or just the wording?

One sound like the ray-tracing is being done by ray-tracing hardware & the other sound like there is changes in the GPU to help with ray-tracing.

www.neogaf.com

No Hardware based implies that it's being done in hardware while hardware accelerated sounds like there is hardware to help with ray-tracing.

The implementation between the 2 is probably different. Both are in HW obviously.

Remember that one writer of an article a few months back said like Scarlett RT was focused on "faking" stuff and PS5's method was "intensive" or something like that.

Edit: found his comment

If I have to guess.

MS is using the in-house AMD Ray-tracing solution.
Sony is using a custom Ray-trading solution.

They both will have hardware level raytracing...…...I think PS5's RT will be a bit stronger since their devs have been hitting the lab hard to push RT solutions in their games for next gen...….We've already seen PD heavily invested in RT as it will be an important feature in GT and in other SWWS games, let's not forget, RT for audio as well.....So it leaves no doubt in my mind at all, that PS5 will have a formidable RT solution....GTS has already been demoed with some level of RT by PD.....It will be a feature they will push, next to their load times and 3D audio....They have the devs to show it off, so their investment in it is substantial...

We all know Sony had ray tracing hardware before AMD had ray tracing in their GPUs because, well AMD still don't have it (other than in the new Xbox allegedly - I say this not because I don't think Xbox has RT but it's not confirmed it's AMDs 'next gen' RDNA RT)

Sony demoed their RT tech in December 2018 with the 8k GT:S demo. It looked strong then and I imagine it's better now.

Leakers are saying ps5 RT is better and Devs are already making use of it as seen by godfall.

It will certainly be interesting to see who's doing what with the tech.

So while the premise of the topic does seem odd based on wording from different companies, I do think the evidence suggests they could both be vastly different solutions for the same problem.

AMDs solution is not full ray tracing (the slide says select lighting effects), is Sony's solution. Time will tell I guess.

Anything involving lighting tech I would trust Sony to have an advantage. The I.C.E team and VASG would know what the next step is for hardware and software solutions

Sony's hardware-based raytracing in the GPU might be even more "dedicated" than those cores We'll have to wait and see

Another blow hard Xbox ... Whatever, there is really nothing to talk about until we have seen what's released in a couple of months.

That whole thing reminds me of 2013 in many ways:
MS fans kept saying Sony would have the same type of copy restrictions as MS... Ooops

Then on price, the Xbox one's APU cost more to manufacture than the PS4's because they made some stupid engineering decisions in development, it also performed worse!

Now like a beaten girlfriend you keep coming back to your abuser for more, good, just stop complaining when it happens again.

We will know eventually once the specs are revealed. So far supposed "insiders" are saying that PS5 has the advantage in Ray-tracing. We'll see.

You might have to search deep inside an anal cavity for that one......


Cerny: PS5 will have RT
Concerned Fans of X : Is it hardware or software based? So it is software based because he never said hardware based...... see!.....
Cerny: (In an Interview), it's hardware based, happy to clarify...cheerios..
Concerned Fans of X : Gosh Darnnit, Cerny can you be clear already? So he said hardware based, so it's just CU accelerated instead of having actual RT cores?
Jim Ryan: It's Hardware based guys (with the rumormill hot and heavy about a more exotically designed RT hardware component in PS5)…..
Concerned Fans of X: I hate Jim Ryan, he said something I didn't like in the past....

What?

PD

"The team is reportedly working on a new engine for the sequel that will make use of its own real-time ray-tracing engine. For those that unfamiliar with ray-tracing, it’s technology that’s been utilized with a number of high-end games on PC, but not seen that much on the console front, if at all."

https://comicbook.com/gaming/2018/12/30/gran-turismo-7-real-time-ray-tracing-playstation-5/

https://www.tweaktown.com/news/64280/gran-turismo-teased-real-time-ray-tracing-ps5/index.html

https://www.teamvvv.com/news/gran-turismo-dev-working-on-their-own-real-time-ray-tracing-tech/



Some nice bonus info about lighting/RT in GT.....The nurb for example uses lots of data because of all the lighting passes needed for all the rendered trees on that track.....Read up...

https://www.gtplanet.net/polyphony-digital-reveals-gt-sports-iris-ray-tracing-system-at-cedec-2018/

Negative almost all ppl tht have mentioned RT solutions and are suppose to be Insiders have said ps5 RT solution is the one with the edge. We've all been here reading up on the leaks thy gave tht nod to ps5 except for like one person tht said thy were similar.

Some ppl here have selective memory and reading.

Well this is the way I look at it at least from my logic and point of view.

When someone says "hardware accelerated ray tracing" (Microsoft) I take that as you have the regular raster capability of the GPU plus RT cores or whatever in addition to that which take on the brunt of the additional load experienced by ray tracing being in effect.

When someone says "hardware based ray tracing" (Sony) I take that as you're cannibalizing the raster capability of the GPU to render the RT load being introduced, it is through hardware as stated but there's no form of discrete acceleration.

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

This seems pretty freaking huge....

damn...