bitbydeath
Member
End to end bottlenecks though, inclusive of GPU and CPU.
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PS5 focus is high performance, not high power. Are people underestimating the value of the approach?
- Thread starter bitbydeath
- Start date
- Opinion
End to end bottlenecks though, inclusive of GPU and CPU.
VFXVeteran
Banned
Sorry as long as Microsoft is not providing the biggest incentive to buy a console (exclusiveeee games!!!) They can't even touch Sony. The closest they came was Xbox 360 era and PS3 still outsold them. In what parallel universe do you live? And this generation will not be different. You can take a screenshot and rub it in my face if I am wrong. As long as i can play Xbox games on PC there is not a single reason to get that box of plastic. The same goes for Sony. If they start to put all their games on PC they won't get my money.
Yea, well, you might have to start saving up for a PC then. Seriously folks. this generation is going to be different as far as Sony exclusives ONLY coming out on the PS platform. I've been preaching this for nearly a year and I still don't see it discussed when people try to pinpoint the uniqueness of Sony's exclusive games. I feel like what I'm saying is going through one ear and out the other despite giving you folks accurate information. It's just not going to be like last gen anymore. The PC might not get all, but some of the ones they will be getting will matter, believe me. The signs are all over the place.
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HawarMiran
Banned
I don't care if it comes 3 years down the line. If it is like on Xbox, that would bother me. Like i wouldn't wait 2 years or longer to play Tlou 2
VFXVeteran
Banned
It's not going to be 3yrs later dude. Nowhere near that long.
HawarMiran
Banned
How do you know?
bitbydeath
Member
Ports won’t come so easy given how exotic the hardware is. Even the SSD requires a specific type for games to work.
HawarMiran
Banned
You opened the pandoras box
VFXVeteran
Banned
The SSD is in no way going to be something impossible to get around on the PC especially when they are developing on the PC anyway from the start. I don't know how many times I have to keep saying this. You guys didn't believe ANY 1st party games was coming to PC even when I told you they were.. then you didn't believe the performance metric of the GPU that I told you guys and THAT ended up being correct too. Like why would I tell you guys shit that I don't know? There's no point to mislead you when I can just ask my sources.
Sony has big plans for the PC. Period. Is that a secret? NO. You already started seeing it last year but ignored the little games (i.e. Detroit, Beyond Two Souls, etc..)
SatansReverence
Hipster Princess
Tell us about how Sony has removed their power delivery and thermal bottlenecks in the PS5.
DynamiteCop!
Banned
DynamiteCop!
Banned
Don't feel sorry for them, they'll be just fine, the other people though should be where worry is expressed. Xbox 360 flashbacks are coming back around.lmao man it’s funny how Xbox fanboys are beating their chest already. Next gen ain’t even started yet. That shows you how much built up anger they had since 2013
Shambala
Member
Rrod?
DynamiteCop!
Banned
Yes, the RRoD on a system which is clocked lower and at less risk of overheating.
Sosokrates
Report me if I continue to console war
Yes, sony dont want 100 million userbase they want a billion.
Its why the big companies are chasing streaming.
SatansReverence
Hipster Princess
Thermal related failures,
On the console that from the early leaks has met its performance target and thus has had plenty of long term verification of cooling performance
-OR-
On the console that has clearly had a last minute massive overclock to close a power gap due to having a smaller and less powerful APU while also clearly not having the Power delivery or thermal budget to perform consistently.
Hmmmmmm.
bitbydeath
Member
SatansReverence
Hipster Princess
Psst, we already know the answer.
CatLady
Selfishly plays on Xbox Purr-ies X
No doubt that's true, but XsX is "The Most Powerful Console Ever". So unlike the PS5, Xbox doesn't need to talk endlessly about less important details to try to look competitive.
Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Member
If the ssd is as powerful as they claim, it might be possible but expect serious downgrades. As you'd basically have to drastically scale down world detail to allow it to stream from hdds.
Even pcie nvme drives are no faster than sata drives in pc, and sata drives are only 3-5 times faster than an hdd. Yet the ps5's ssd is 100 times faster than an hdd. It is faster than the fastest pc ssds at the moment, and without the pc's bottlenecks.
The ps5 exclusive games are unlikely to run outside ps5 dev kits, if the ssd performance is as high as they claim.
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TheAmazingSpiderMan
Member
What does this even mean? Can you please elaborate?
Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Member
streaming is unplayable outside of turn based games.
VFXVeteran
Banned
There are a couple of things that people here don't understand or just flat out ignore the information:
1) Memory is king.. not I/O devices. The PC has 2 pools of memory to pull from. a) VRAM and b) DDR CPU RAM on the motherboard. You can easily cache a lot of assets in CPU memory instead of relying on the slow I/O (5.5GB/s) for streaming. The CPU RAM can be an in-between step before getting assets into VRAM. So no, I don't see scaling down anything. A high-end PC will have more bandwidth to take more assets to compute than any of the next-gen consoles.
2) Ultimately the GPU will become the bottleneck with every platform - not the SSD/HDD. You could move a crap ton of data into the GPU such that processing at the pixel level becomes a bottleneck. In other words, it does no good to try throwing highly detailed large datasets at the GPU when it's TFLOPS/memory limits can't handle it. Believe me the SSD is the slowest part of that pipeline 100%. You guys act like the SSD is what writes pixels to the screen and does all the shading, lighting and texturing.. it's not.
The PC has enormous flexibility in that you can put any kind of hardware piece on the mb and make it way faster, much larger RAM pool, and much better bandwidth. The PC isn't a fixed platform like the consoles. It's extremely flexible and agnostic which is why it's the default platform of choice to create proof of concepts and develop pipelines.
Sony isn't going to make a game centered around just the PS5 if they have plans porting it to PC. As I said many times, CPU RAM can be used to offset a slow HDD for the PC. Upping the RAM requirements would be a practical solution for PC ports.
DynamiteCop!
Banned
The PlayStation community in a frenzy.
TheAmazingSpiderMan
Member
I think you’re forgetting MS have more to prove than PS do, Power doesn’t just equal win. Until Xbox can drop exclusives on the same level of Sony’s WWS then there’s nothing to worry for PS fans. The existing install base tells me Sony will have more sales at the end of the year.
I don’t know why fanboys seem to think power rules over sales? Because whoever sells more is basically ‘winning‘
Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Member
Most pcs have just 16GB of main memory and around 8GB of vram. The ps5 has 16GB of ram and the ssd can move up to 22GB/s. The data has to go from ssd to cpu ram first before it can be cached there. In theory you could be in a city and you open a door and there's 8+GB of new data in the room. Or you could have a game were you warp or move fast like sonic or flash or superman, and suddenly the entire 100+GB game area might be seconds away in any direction.
Sure you can match that, but for some scenarios you're basically going to need 100+GB ram installed in the pc.
There are ps5 games with blurry textures here and there, even high end aaa games. Why? I assume to avoid high loading times. In theory with the ssd not only can all textures be high resolution, but potentially they could have even higher levels of detail up close than would otherwise be practical as you can stream higher level of detail on the fly.
Currently the maximum level of detail is limited by what you can stream. On ps4 that's the hdd, and even ssd designed pc games appear no more than 5 times faster than an ssd.
True you could up ram requirements. But for certain games ( a sonic a flash a superman, etc) it just wouldn't be possible without prohibitive amounts of ram. Even a gta like game if exclusive could use massive diverse assets that you could easily reach with a car or helicopter. Say the game city is 100+GB of different assets, suddenly you can travel in any direction at high speed and require all of that.
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PleaseWaitStation4
Banned
At the end of the day, the only things that matter are what system has the better version of the games performance-wise. One will be 30fps and fake 4k, one may be 60fps and native 4k. That's all we need to hear.
VFXVeteran
Banned
I can't argue anymore about this.
I'll just say that a game can't move any faster than peak TFLOPS. Throwing data at your GPU will only net you max 10.2TFLOPS under a set of conditions. That's all it can deliver. The PC can deliver much much more (i.e. Ampere - 30xx cards) and XSX can deliver 12TFLOPS. Those are the facts.
LemmingWithaParachute
Banned
You make a good point.
I thought the industry told us that cloud/streaming was the future?
On the topic of the SSD. Its only as fast the slowest related component.
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DynamiteCop!
Banned
It's not just the power, Microsoft's messaging is fundamentally clear, their roadmap is clear, they really got their act together. Sony on the other hand while they haven't shit the bed or anything have really poor messaging right now, cryptic lack of information and plans, haven't really showed or talked about much.
It just seems like this is a different Microsoft than 2013, and this is a different Sony than 2013.
DiddyInAHellcat
Member
Sony has 13+ million views of that road to ps5 video on YouTube .... I would say they really don't have anything to worry about as long as they deliver on the games 
CJY
Banned
The difference is that Sony still have billions of dollars to make before the end of this generation so there is no reason for them show all their cards now whereas MS can't wait for the next generation to start so blew their load far too early to try to take away all Sony's talking points. I don't think MS's strategy is working out too well so far, cos most people can see through MS's tactics, and yeah, Sony's messaging has been poor so far, but it's not likely to affect their popularity next gen whatsoever.
Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Member
The question is how limited are current games by the hdds? Are gpus being fully utilized? I've seen last gen textures in some areas of some big bugdet titles. That simply could be avoided probably with an ssd. I've also seen ridiculously sharp textures in areas of some games, suggesting these can be handled.
The ps4 has like 2 Tflops, yet there is a clear difference between a game with small rooms with corridors and open world games with no loading in terms of detail. Part of that is because open world games are more demanding. But part of that might also be due to having fewer things that allow you to stream higher detail assets.
If that is the case it is likely open world games would have been as detailed or more than games like detroit on ps4 had it had an ssd.
edit:
Radeon RX 580 4GB Game FPS Benchmarks On Ultra
Radeon RX 580 4GB Can Run PC Game System Requirements
How well can the AMD Radeon RX 580 4GB GPU run PC game system requirements? Compare Radeon RX 580 4GB performance to game specswww.game-debate.com
Here we see that at 1080p, the 4GB can run most games on ultra at decent to high framerate. Even at 1440p ultra it gets close to 30fps up to 60 fps, if I'm not mistaken.
Ultra settings are higher than anything on console, yet 4GB is enough to handle it currently. That suggests less than 4GB of graphics might be usable in any frame in current gen games.
Sure an rtx 2080 has significantly more ram and more Tflops, but it won't be able to show more details than ultra at 1080p or 1440p. In essence it can only increase framerate, but detail wise it's limited to what the 4GB rx 580 can display.(at least in current gen titles without ray tracing.). Why are games using so little ram? Could very well be due to lack of ssd. Would a game that actually used 8GB instead of 4GB not look better?
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TheAmazingSpiderMan
Member
That I can’t deny, not sure what’s going on with the Sony camp this time around, but Phil has done really well to turn Xbox around from what it was in 2013, messaging is clear, demos to go by and very much vocal. I do believe Sony May have had a full blown reveal planned but due to Covid-19 I think they’re holding back now. I’m hoping that is the case as the competition have pretty much shown their hand and have done well in communicating this.
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Windows-PC
Banned
No! I care about consistent frame rates and higher resolutions and better image quality! I can wait 5 Seconds longer without a problem until my game is loaded
SenjutsuSage
Banned
I totally believe Sony has addressed bottlenecks up and down the design and will have a very capable performer, but people are overlooking that Microsoft has done more or less the same thing on their end. Yes, they went with a crap ton of power, but then also announced/detailed quite a few very smart new features to more wisely utilize and get the most from all that power. There are couple features they've discussed now that are specifically tailored to allowing them to get the same or better result while utilizing less. VRS is an example of this, so is Sampler Feedback Streaming and Mesh Shaders, DirectStorage. All 4 of these things together with the velocity architecture are designed to utilize the available power in a far smarter, more efficient fashion. So not to knock Sony, but for everything that Sony is doing, there's plenty of evidence that Microsoft has also done the same while just plain having a more powerful looking system on paper.
Barring developer malpractice, I find it very hard to see how developers don't end up making this thing sing, just as I'm sure they'll do for PS5. And, no, I'm not talking about that silliness where if a game looks and runs at the same resolution and framerate on the Series X and PS5 I'm going to accuse the developers of being lazy. It's just hard not to see developers going apeshit in a good way for what's put forward from an overall hardware standpoint.
And in the end it really doesn't matter what's more powerful, both these systems have plenty enough power to blow us away all generation long. If comparison sites and videos didn't exist, most wouldn't even be able to tell. People don't miss what they aren't trained to miss. I've come to appreciate them for giving me all sorts of interesting snapshots of where a game is, but that's pretty much about it. Only thing I've ever disliked about them is when I thought people isolated one thing and took it out of context without actually playing the game themselves.
TLDR: Microsoft didn't just go build the incredible hulk, they may have the frame and the strength, but the thing is also loaded with Iron Man and Doctor's strange smarts and cleverness, if that makes any sense.
Sony aren't the only ones with custom hardware, they aren't the only ones with clever ways to cut down on, or eliminate entirely, work one or more parts of the system has to do. Both aim for insane efficiency in their designs.
Barring developer malpractice, I find it very hard to see how developers don't end up making this thing sing, just as I'm sure they'll do for PS5. And, no, I'm not talking about that silliness where if a game looks and runs at the same resolution and framerate on the Series X and PS5 I'm going to accuse the developers of being lazy. It's just hard not to see developers going apeshit in a good way for what's put forward from an overall hardware standpoint.
And in the end it really doesn't matter what's more powerful, both these systems have plenty enough power to blow us away all generation long. If comparison sites and videos didn't exist, most wouldn't even be able to tell. People don't miss what they aren't trained to miss. I've come to appreciate them for giving me all sorts of interesting snapshots of where a game is, but that's pretty much about it. Only thing I've ever disliked about them is when I thought people isolated one thing and took it out of context without actually playing the game themselves.
TLDR: Microsoft didn't just go build the incredible hulk, they may have the frame and the strength, but the thing is also loaded with Iron Man and Doctor's strange smarts and cleverness, if that makes any sense.
Sony aren't the only ones with custom hardware, they aren't the only ones with clever ways to cut down on, or eliminate entirely, work one or more parts of the system has to do. Both aim for insane efficiency in their designs.
SenjutsuSage
Banned
TBiddy and
DynamiteCop!
I'll gift you both one month of GAF Gold if you provide us actual evidence that Xbox's SSD is at the same level and class as the PS5's SSD in terms of levels of optimization, elimination of bottlenecks, perfomance, and sheer raw compression speeds.
There's actually quite a bit of evidence the Series X SSD is every bit as well thought out in its overall implementation. The only area where it appears at any disadvantage is in pure speed, but it appears equally well adapted for its task with plenty of specific software as well as dedicated hardware solutions tailored to help it do its job better.
Sampler Feedback Streaming, according to a Graphics Optimization R&D and Engine Architect @ Microsoft, isn't actually part of RDNA2 like many think. Sampler Feedback, though, is one of the pillars of DX12 Ultimate, but Microsoft appears to have developed their own custom technique (with specialized hardware in the GPU designed for it) to perform this apparently more advanced streaming technology.
Tweet here.
Inside Xbox Series X: the full specs
This is it. After months of teaser trailers, blog posts and even the occasional leak, we can finally reveal firm, hard …
www.eurogamer.net
Then BCPack sounds pretty impressive also, another thing designed for Series X that another experienced dev has been praising pretty heavily on twitter.
Then you can toss in DirectStorage. And look what the setup already allows to be possible with that really fast multiple game switching. This thing may not boast the on paper speed of the PS5's SSD arrangement, but it certainly wasn't just tossed together. The results so far pretty much speak for themselves.
Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Member
If true then it's likely not available either in RDNA2 nor nvidia's next gen architecture.
That seems to conflict with the following statement straight from microsoft
Only way would be if rdna2 cards weren't directx 12 ultimate compliant. But according to amd they are.When gamers purchase PC graphics hardware with the DX12 Ultimate logo or an Xbox Series X, they can do so with the confidence that their hardware is guaranteed to support ALL next generation graphics hardware features, including DirectX Raytracing, Variable Rate Shading, Mesh Shaders and Sampler Feedback. This mark of quality ensures stellar “future-proof” feature support for next generation games!
Announcing DirectX 12 Ultimate - DirectX Developer Blog
It is time for DirectX to evolve once again. From the team that has brought PC and Console gamers the latest in graphics innovation for nearly 25 years, we are beyond pleased to bring gamers DirectX 12 Ultimate, the culmination of the best graphics technology we’ve ever introduced in an...devblogs.microsoft.com
AMD confirms its next-gen graphics cards will fully support DirectX 12 Ultimate
AMD confirms its next-gen graphics cards will fully support DirectX 12 Ultimate
Viable real-time ray tracing in games will no longer be the exclusive domain of Nvidia.www.pcgamer.com
Now does this mean ps5 has it? Maybe maybe not, perhaps it's part rdna2 but not full rdna2.
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DynamiteCop!
Banned
Sony has 13+ million views of that road to ps5 video on YouTube .... I would say they really don't have anything to worry about as long as they deliver on the games
Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Member
yes, but the important part is the h/w implementation. it seems like it is not additional custom h/w but part of the rdna2 h/w.
edit:
whatever is not accelerated by h/w, any software feature can be replicated. I believe this feature is likely accelerated by h/w.
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SenjutsuSage
Banned
They switched between 5 games, each becoming playable in less than 7-8 seconds. How much more finesse do they really need? And not one of those games are actually designed for Series X. This works even after a full shutdown or a system update. That's pretty damn impressive.
With what Sony has showcased, they should be able to do this in like half a second-3 seconds in between? Who knows if they'll support that multiple game switch feature. They don't need to, but that's what's so cool about competitioni and having options. Each will probably have their own awesome touches.
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Jonsoncao
Banned
Do you know overclocking is one of the least efficient way to increase performance?
Reference: https://www.pcgamesn.com/amd/overcl...-super#nn-graph-sheet-assassins-creed-odyssey
a 10% clock boost in a 7nm AMD card gives 0%-5% increase in performance.
Snake29
RSI Employee of the Year
Omg, are you crying?
Kerotan
Member
Genius move. It's had the full impact it can have on ps4 at this stage. Launching on pc will show many non ps4 gamers what they're missing, will make Sony some easy money and will make even more want to play horizon 2 which will be ps5 only.Lies, all lies, Sony would never....
Oh...
TBiddy
Member
You can state it all you want, that doesn't make it true. Cerny is talking about removing bottlenecks with regards to the SSD. Both with regards to loading and streaming. He's talking about how many resources it takes to copy files ie. and how they've addressed that.
All of which makes perfect sense, considering the speed that the SSD is running at. They really need some great hardware for that, which is what he's talking about. I'm not sure why you refuse to admit that.
Yes, of course the SSD and the CPU is the same. Jesus. Can we at least pretend that we're both adults here? They designed a custom controller to remove some of the workloads from the CPU. Workloads that happens - yes you've guessed it - when the SSD is working hard.
It all revolves around the SSD, no matter how much you try to deny it.
PS. You literally wrote, that the GPU handled the streaming (which, remember, was 100 times faster) part. Let me quote it for you again:
Either the GPU is 100 times faster or you've dug a hole that you're now trying to climb out of.
bitbydeath
Member
I’m not going to bother with this discussion any further. You are obviously trolling for laughs.
MilkyJoe
Member
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