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[hyperbertha]

Great counter argument there

Counter arguments are a waste of time against someone who will refuse to acknowledge the truth if its staring them in the face. Its not that you want to be convinced, its that you'll do everything in your power not to be convinced. I've just about had enough of you lot.

 

[ethomaz]

Fixed it.

There are a lot of non-Sony devs too... Square Enid, Epic, and others.

 

[DForce]

Damn, the amount of Sony boys jumping into this thread to damage control is staggering.

This thread is about Jason's comment about what the devs are saying.

Looks like X fans are here to downplay it.

 

[Tumle]

Simple question. Which platform has the more beefiery specs? XSX wins in gpu,cpu, and bandwidth. No? XSX clocks are a lock at all times.No? PS5 uses variable clocks. No?

This notion that a ssd can compensate for the PS5s weaker gpu,cpu,bandwidth is theoretical at this point. XSX having the more powerful specs is not theoretical. It's a certainty. :

I’m not disputing that, but real-world workloads can differ from measured and calculated outputs.. is all I’m saying..
Some games performed better on the PS4 and some performed better on the Xbox one, so optimisation of software to handle the bottlenecks both machines will have, will be exiting to see and what helps performance..
The xsx will have 12.1 TF I know, but will developers be able to utilise that properly? and that also goes for the ps5.
Both consoles are attacking bottlenecks in completely different ways and that’s interesting I think

 

[eastwood333]

There are a lot of non-Sony devs too... Square Enid, Epic, and others.

And what are they referring to exactly? Better SSD? The 3D audio chip? Saying a console is revolutionary etc... in no way claims its more powerful than the XSX. Even the Xbox One does some things better than PS4.

 

[Croatoan]

There are a lot of non-Sony devs too... Square Enid, Epic, and others.

 

[Reindeer]

This thread is about Jason's comment about what the devs are saying.

Looks like X fans are here to downplay it.

Because there are other devs saying differently and we already saw how reliable Jason's contacts are when he said that PS5 will be more powerful than 2080. You obviously pick and choose what you want to believe.

 

[Reindeer]

Counter arguments are a waste of time against someone who will refuse to acknowledge the truth if its staring them in the face. Its not that you want to be convinced, its that you'll do everything in your power not to be convinced. I've just about had enough of you lot.

Sure thing, buddy .

 

[Dodkrake]

There's a few considerations to take after sitting in on the PS5 announcement and analyzing both consoles. I'll drop them below:

1. It saddens me that supposed game fans are "happy" that their console "wins whatever". This applies to both PS and XB users. The problem here is that a nerfed system will always be a bottleneck for all systems when developing multiplatform games. Graphics are not everything, there's also game mechanics that are either possible or impossible with any given system.

2. A lot of people DO NOT understand how a system is designed, neither they understand what a performance bottleneck is. Let's put things like this: If you have a quadcore CPU from 2008 and slap it in a Motherboard with a GTX 2080 TI and 64GB of RAM, you are wasting resources. Your CPU will be your bottleneck, and you will not achieve the same performance as someone with a more balanced system and even a GTX 2060 or 2070, depending on how balanced those systems are.

3. With that said, nobody is saying that system X or Y will have obvious bottlenecks, but it looks like both companies went with completely different approaches to how games are designed and how resources are utilized.

3.1. The XBox Series X seems to throw raw power into the equation, which has been the status quo since 2013. This is an ok approach, especially because these are custom built chips designed to maximize performance and minimize losses. I expect great things from it.

3.2. The PS5 is more "refined" in it's approach, and by this I mean, the amount of custom processors designed to offload load from the GPU and CPU is staggering. While the machine has overall less "TFlops", it seems to be "better rounded".

4. I'm basing myself in the tech sheets and my minimal knowledge of hardware.

5. I really want that, in real world applications, both are similar. In that scenario, all true gamers win.

6. Spec sheets will be closed way ahead. Sony would absolutely not add "variable clock frequencies" and "boost the clocks" because the Xbox announced a higher TFlop count. We don't understand how RDNA2 affects thermals and clock speeds yet, so best reserve our judgement when launch time comes.

 

[Deeper Underground]

It is.

You don’t know that. It’s all “theoretical“ at this point. If you truly believe XSX is 12.1 sustained, then the PS5 is 10.3 sustained as well.

 

[Reindeer]

Here guys who from PC World who have no vested interest in next gen consoles discussing PS5 specs and say that Series X is considerably more powerful. People should listen to folks who are neutral and how they're saying that Series X is a superior console.

 

[SleepDoctor]

You don’t know that. It’s all “theoretical“ at this point. If you truly believe XSX is 12.1 sustained, then the PS5 is 10.3 sustained as well.

Ms said sustained and Sony say variable. No other way to spin that lmao the level of reaching is astronomical here.

 

[hyperbertha]

Sure thing, buddy .

If you need your counter arguments refer to my previous posts disputing others on this same topic. Not gonna waste my time with obvious fanboys.

 

[eastwood333]

I’m not disputing that, but real-world workloads can differ from measured and calculated outputs.. is all I’m saying..
Some games performed better on the PS4 and some performed better on the Xbox one, so optimisation of software to handle the bottlenecks both machines will have, will be exiting to see and what helps performance..
The xsx will have 12.1 TF I know, but will developers be able to utilise that properly? and that also goes for the ps5.
Both consoles are attacking bottlenecks in completely different ways and that’s interesting I think

Based on common knowledge, the platform with fixed clocks is far easier to utilize than a platform with variable clocks. No? I do realize there are other aspects as well. People need to go and read/watch the DF articles/videos on XSX. The only issue they mention that could be a little tricky for devs is the split memory pool of Ram such as putting audio,os, and things of that nature on the slower ram.

Having read the DF analysis on XSX, it appears to be very developer friendly with more predictable results vs PS5, and lots of effeciencies. And key features like RT are more CU intensive, which favors the XSX more.

 

[Deeper Underground]

Based on common knowledge, the platform with fixed clocks is far easier to utilize than a platform with variable clocks. No? I do realize there are other aspects as well.

Your assumption that the word “variable” means the PS5’s clocks are going to be constantly going up and down is hilariously misguided. Even more so when the lead architect said it’s going to be sustained.

 

[SleepDoctor]

Your assumption that the word “variable” means the PS5’s clocks are going to be constantly going up and down is hilariously misguided. Even more so when the lead architect said it’s going to be sustained.

You lost all credibility with the last post. Wrap it up with your throwaway account. Even Cerny said variable, stop spreading misinformation.

 

[hyperbertha]

Your assumption that the word “variable” means the PS5’s clocks are going to be constantly going up and down is hilariously misguided. Even more so when the lead architect said it’s going to be sustained.

Makes you wonder why Sony even picked Cerny to design their consoles when they could have simply picked anyone from GAF. More knowledgeable in every area.

 

[hyperbertha]

Even Cerny said variable

Cerny said a couple percent. Stop spreading misinformation. Its going to be sustained, not constant.

 

[SleepDoctor]

Cerny said a couple percent. Stop spreading misinformation. Its going to be sustained, not constant.

He said "variable" not "sustained". Cry to him

 

[Deeper Underground]

Makes you wonder why Sony even picked Cerny to design their consoles when they could have simply picked anyone from GAF. More knowledgeable in every area.

I know right? Makes you laugh when you see just how hard the Xbox fanboys in this thread are trying to act neutral, but can’t help, but show their shitty asses.

 

[eastwood333]

Your assumption that the word “variable” means the PS5’s clocks are going to be constantly going up and down is hilariously misguided. Even more so when the lead architect said it’s going to be sustained.

I never said constantly. He said variable. It even says "variable" in there spec sheet. How stupid are you?

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

Cerny said that 2ghz fixed was problematic, I wouldn't be surprised if it will clock under 2 ghz during heavy load.

RDNA 2.0 allows for much higher clocks, Cerny mentioned they can stay at relatively higher speeds too

 

[Goliathy]

Your assumption that the word “variable” means the PS5’s clocks are going to be constantly going up and down is hilariously misguided. Even more so when the lead architect said it’s going to be sustained.

what? So, FACTs, From the Deep Dive:

00:35:26,329 --> 00:35:50,719
sizeable GPU then we went with a variable frequency strategy for PlayStation 5 which is to say we continuously run the GPU and CPU in boost mode we supply a generous amount of electrical power and then increase the frequency of GPU and CPU until they reach the capabilities of the system's cooling solution.

And MS:

Microsoft is promising a 4x improvement in both single-core and overall throughput over Xbox One X - and CPU speeds are impressive, with a peak 3.8GHz frequency. This is when SMT - or hyper-threading - is disabled.

Curiously, developers can choose to run with eight physical cores at the higher clock, or all cores and threads can be enabled with a lower 3.6GHz frequency. Those frequencies are completely locked and won't adjust according to load or thermal conditions - a point Microsoft emphasised several times during our visit.

But up until now at least, the focus has been on the GPU, where Microsoft has delivered 12 teraflops of compute performance via 3328 shaders allocated to 52 compute units (from 56 in total on silicon, four disabled to increase production yield) running at a sustained, locked 1825MHz. Once again, Microsoft stresses the point that frequencies are consistent on all machines, in all environments. There are no boost clocks with Xbox Series X.

This was even before the Reavel of the PS5.

Source: https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2020-inside-xbox-series-x-full-specs

 

[Bryank75]

Here guys who from PC World who have no vested interest in next gen consoles discussing PS5 specs and say that Series X is considerably more powerful. People should listen to folks who are neutral and how they're saying that Series X is a superior console.

These guys are experienced with classic PC architecture, anything outside the classic architecture and they have no idea what they are talking about. Apples and oranges.

 

[Tarkus98]

Wait a mo ...

I thought the XSX was 12.1TF sustained? People now seem to be suggesting that's the theoretical peak under ideal conditions (throughput, etc.)?

Edit: I should clarify that I mean 12.1TF is the best possible but not something people should expect to see most of the time.

It certainly should be. Maybe people are referring to bottlenecks bringing the amount down but it is definitely locked at 12.1 or thereabouts.

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

These guys are experienced with classic PC architecture, anything outside the classic architecture and they have no idea what they are talking about. Apples and oranges.

meh, more like oranges and tangerines

there’s a lot of similarity these days

 

[PocoJoe]

In the end world doesnt give a fuck about which is more powerful in paper.

Games sells systems, price sells systems, brand sell system.

If next gen is anything like this gen, we already know which system have the edge.

xbots act like having more numbers on the paper will equal into magical "winning" of the gen that is still 6months away. sad

Sad to down talk PS5 while it is highly engineered to be more than "higher numbers on paper".

After all this bullshit my conclusion is that most fanatic xbox fanboys are young kids and/or americans, whom have low education and they lack all the critical thinking because they have been brainwashed by shitty mentality of their madman land.

But they just continue repeating 12 TFLOPS like group of parrots, parrots dont know what they are talking about either, so I guess this is like arguing with a bird, pointless.

 

[Bryank75]

meh, more like oranges and tangerines

there’s a lot of similarity these days

I mean that PS5 specifically is trying to do something different with the memory and storage.... it's not how it is traditionally viewed. Anyway, it's a bit pointless until we see for ourselves...

 

[Deto]

Here guys who from PC World who have no vested interest in next gen consoles discussing PS5 specs and say that Series X is considerably more powerful. People should listen to folks who are neutral and how they're saying that Series X is a superior console.

+17% tf
+3% cpu

"considerably"

developers >>>> youtubers

 

[BattleScar]

He said "variable" not "sustained". Cry to him

They're variable in the same way that the temperature for your air conditioning is variable. The software/workload (i.e the game) determines what the frequencies are. That way any and all PS5's in an all manner of circumstances will perform exactly the same way.

 

[DForce]

Because there are other devs saying differently and we already saw how reliable Jason's contacts are when he said that PS5 will be more powerful than 2080. You obviously pick and choose what you want to believe.

And there are devs who are speaking on their own accord.

I don't pick and choose, but that's exactly what you're talking.

 

[SleepDoctor]

They're variable in the same way that the temperature for your air conditioning is variable. The software/workload (i.e the game) determines what the frequencies are. That way any and all PS5's in an all manner of circumstances will perform exactly the same way.

We don't know exactly how it will perform till we see the games. He did say its variable and in boost mode tho. How often and/or consistent its overclocked at 2.23ghz, remains to be seen.

Bottom line, its not sustained. If it was, he would have said so.

 

[eastwood333]

And there are devs who are speaking on their own accord.

I don't pick and choose, but that's exactly what you're talking.

And what are they saying? What are they referring to? What are they comparing it to? Saying something is revolutionary can mean anything. Are they referring to the SSD? The 3D audio? VR? Controller features?Even the vanilla XB1 does certain things better than PS4. There will always be a few things one platform does better than the other.

 

[eastwood333]

+17% tf
+3% cpu

"considerably"

developers >>>> youtubers

there is actually an ex sony dev saying that XSX is staggeringly more powerful vs PS5

 

[Goliathy]

They're variable in the same way that the temperature for your air conditioning is variable. The software/workload (i.e the game) determines what the frequencies are. That way any and all PS5's in an all manner of circumstances will perform exactly the same way.

No, the frequency of the CPU/GPU is variable. Variable means = "up to"/"max" in this case, so it will get lower, we don't know how much/how often it goes lower than that.

Please see the spec sheet:

Source: https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/...s-and-tech-that-deliver-sonys-next-gen-vision

For Xbox Series X both is LOCKED all the time.

 

[DForce]

And what are they saying? What are they referring to? What are they comparing it to?

They're saying the tech inside of the PS5 is impressive.

People are downplaying it by saying, "Damage control", "Sony dev" etc.

 

[Deeper Underground]

there is actually an ex sony dev saying that XSX is staggeringly more powerful vs PS5

You mean the same ex Sony dev who looks like he does a lot of work for MS now? Great source there Einstein. How stupid are you?

 

[BattleScar]

We don't know exactly how it will perform till we see the games. He did say its variable and in boost mode tho. How often and/or consistent its overclocked at 2.23ghz, remains to be seen.

Bottom line, its not sustained. If it was, he would have said so.

Its not an "overclock" though. Its not at all like GPU boost on a PC.
On PC, a GPU will boost based on how much power you're willing to throw at the card, and how well you can keep the GPU/mem/VRM cool.

On PS5 that is obviously not an option, because it would mean that each user would get a different experience - different framerates/frametimes etc. This is not acceptable on a console which demands a uniform experience.

As a result, the PS5 operates with a FIXED power budget (for example 275W). Because power = heat, they can design a cooling solution that can dissapate 300W and will never be overwhelmed by the heat output. Instead the frequency will vary based on workload to make sure that power budget is never exceeded. A couple % drop in frequency can significantly reduce GPU power draw. Temperatures are irrelevant, because some people might have a hot ambient temp, and others may have a cold ambient temp. You don't want people in hot countries getting a worse experience.

Its more a case of the GPU will run at max freq, until it encounters a situation where it needs to downclock by 100MHz or something, in order to make sure the system is not exceeding the power limit.

No, the frequency of the CPU/GPU is variable. Variable means = "up to"/"max" in this case, so it will get lower, we don't know how much/how often it goes lower than that.

Please see the spec sheet:

Source: https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/...s-and-tech-that-deliver-sonys-next-gen-vision

For Xbox Series X both is LOCKED all the time.

I've seen the spec sheet. I never said it wasn't variable. I'm just saying its not variable in the way that you think its variable.
This is not even close to being the same thing as GPU boost on PC.

This was all stated by Cerny, in his video.

 

[joe_zazen]

Wot a thread.

If what JS has tweeted is true, and the guy has a stellar record and is the most connected journo out there, then Sony‘s actual reveal will have some cool shit to show. It wont be dry technical garbage. And if JS is wrong, reveal will be a dumpster fire like the rest of Sony marketing for the past 2 years.

Point is, we still have some stuff to look forward to that may or may not lead to disappointment.

also, dont forget JS has been blackedballed from sony and he trashed naughty dog last week. Idk why anyone would think his has some,sort of live for that company.

 

[eastwood333]

You mean the same ex Sony dev who looks like he does a lot of work for MS now? Great source there Einstein. How stupid are you?

Read his comments. He is actually defending the PS5 by saying it will still produce great games. He's now discredited because YOU don't like what he said. It is a great source. Because many of the these so called devs you sony fanboys spout are not making claims that PS5 is more powerful. Again, complimenting a platform can mean anything. Are they referring to the SSD? 3D audio? VR etc...

 

[eastwood333]

They're saying the tech inside of the PS5 is impressive.

People are downplaying it by saying, "Damage control", "Sony dev" etc.

That's great. But don't confuse that with it being more powerful or more impressive than the XSX. For instance, some of them devs may only have PS5 dev kits. They may be audio programmers who are speaking about the audio tech etc...Maybe they're devloping a VR game and complimenting VR capabilities

 

[Entroyp]

Im not here for console wars as I find them pretty dumb. This guy is team green though. I checked out his twitter.

Which one?

 

[DForce]

And what are they saying? What are they referring to? What are they comparing it to? Saying something is revolutionary can mean anything. Are they referring to the SSD? The 3D audio? VR? Controller features?Even the vanilla XB1 does certain things better than PS4. There will always be a few things one platform does better than the other.

Check out the Moore's Law thread. https://www.neogaf.com/threads/moor...analysis-built-to-develop-new-worlds.1532904/

There other dev quotes and I'm not going to find them all because I'm just too lazy to do that right now, but there's a thread about it.

People are downplaying any information that talks about the PS5. There's no denying this.

 

[eastwood333]

Check out the Moore's Law thread. https://www.neogaf.com/threads/moor...analysis-built-to-develop-new-worlds.1532904/

There other dev quotes and I'm not going to find them all because I'm just too lazy to do that right now, but there's a thread about it.

People are downplaying any information that talks about the PS5. There's no denying this.

BOTH consoles are getting downplayed depending on which platform said user is rooting for.

 

[martino]

Its not an "overclock" though. Its not at all like GPU boost on a PC.
On PC, a GPU will boost based on how much power you're willing to throw at the card, and how well you can keep the GPU/mem/VRM cool.

On PS5 that is obviously not an option, because it would mean that each user would get a different experience - different framerates/frametimes etc. This is not acceptable on a console which demands a uniform experience.

As a result, the PS5 operates with a FIXED power budget (for example 275W). Because power = heat, they can design a cooling solution that can dissapate 300W and will never be overwhelmed by the heat output. Instead the frequency will vary based on workload to make sure that power budget is never exceeded. A couple % drop in frequency can significantly reduce GPU power draw. Temperatures are irrelevant, because some people might have a hot ambient temp, and others may have a cold ambient temp. You don't want people in hot countries getting a worse experience.

Its more a case of the GPU will run at max freq, until it encounters a situation where it needs to downclock by 100MHz or something, in order to make sure the system is not exceeding the power limit.



I've seen the spec sheet. I never said it wasn't variable. I'm just saying its not variable in the way that you think its variable.
This is not even close to being the same thing as GPU boost on PC.

This was all stated by Cerny, in his video.

To me it looks exactly like manual oc with oc tools on pc.
For example on my rig with FFXV (a really demanding game) it lasts as long as you do traversial or combat
For thoses scenarios gpu downclocks something like 60-80mhz
not that much.

 

[Clear]

Wot a thread.

If what JS has tweeted is true, and the guy has a stellar record and is the most connected journo out there, then Sony‘s actual reveal will have some cool shit to show. It wont be dry technical garbage. And if JS is wrong, reveal will be a dumpster fire like the rest of Sony marketing for the past 2 years.

Point is, we still have some stuff to look forward to that may or may not lead to disappointment.

also, dont forget JS has been blackedballed from sony and he trashed naughty dog last week. Idk why anyone would think his has some,sort of live for that company.

That they aren't pushing footage this early suggests that they are protecting their PS4 line-up, unsurprising given that things like TLOU2 and GOT are first-party technical showcases. It amazes me how people can ignore how PS4 is still killing it, and how that ought to impact Sony's plans for the PS5 reveal.

I mean people are talking smack about how Cerny's GDC talk should not have been made public, yet objectively had it been an attendee-only live event, the information contained, and especially the specs, would have leaked onto to the net whether Sony wanted it or not.

Point being, the Cerny thing was not the console reveal. The real thing is yet to come and will be timetabled according to what serves both PS4 and PS5 best.

 

[DForce]

BOTH consoles are getting downplayed depending on which platform said user is rooting for.

And I'm not saying no one is downplaying both consoles. I'm simply pointing out that people are downplaying advantages. It's just that simple.

 

[NickFire]

I want to believe this is not marketing (not JS directly, but whoever is allegedly leaking info to him). But if there's any truth to this why aren't hearing details yet? Tough for me to believe that journalists wouldn't break this scoop if real.

 

[joe_zazen]

I guess some people attack the source when they hear something they don’t like.

it makes the world a worse place because the people who get rewarded are the ones who feed their audience’s prejudices and preconceived notions instead those who dig and try to present truth and challenge people. if it was just a gaming thing it would be funny, but 99% of media and social media operates in this basis. Hell, even scientific academia operates this way a lot of the time. The stories you here about the pettiness and viciousness of supposed educated people...woof.

 

[Goliathy]

I want to believe this is not marketing (not JS directly, but whoever is allegedly leaking info to him). But if there's any truth to this why aren't hearing details yet? Tough for me to believe that journalists wouldn't break this scoop if real.

I would like to know this as well. I still don't get it. There have been a LOT of rumors about PS5 before the reveal, so many positive ones, like 13TF, PS1-PS3 BC, which are all bullshit. What about this one? Why can't even Sony talk about it yet? Is someone forcing them not to talk about it? Seems fishy.