Support NeoGAF

[Bo_Hazem]

I think most of the SSD bandwidth for both systems will be available for games. Downloads, saving video etc is pretty moderate in it's bw requirements compared to speed iof these things.

And make a difference? Yeah, of course. I've given some examples. But in an open world game aside from loading, fast travel, and probably some lod pop, I don't see it leading to entirely different looking games.

"Entirely different" is a pretty big difference though. I don't see it. It's cool though, and nice, and still worth having.

It's not about entirely different, it's about instant streaming for 3rd party. More workload efficient with a lot more less assets and sticking to the bare minimum because the SSD is insanely fast and can feed in assets up to 22GB/s (20GB/s seen in action by a dev by the way). While the other system will be fighting the data with its bottlenecks, PS5 will be loading and offloading like never heard of before. Better room for GPU/CPU/RAM.

It's something new to all of us that's why some people can't understand it or just don't pay attention enough.

 

[IntentionalPun]

Wait.. people are actually claiming throwing far more data/detail at a GPU somehow saves the GPU power? lol

 

[ethomaz]

This is the standard deviation not input lag.

A simple Google search yields the following (no vetting so caveat lector):


The starting point is around 10ms, in general I am feeling that the marginal increment should not be that noticeable if the number according to this chart is accurate.

I knew DS4 feels fantastic compared with DS3.

 

[Lort]

It’s prettier clear Sony spent a lot of time ensuring streaming decompression happens well ( it will always put it in memory for either console) and MS velocity engine is designed for the same thing.

Sonys SSD is faster but that’s just one part of the solution. Due to the complexity and lack of detail we can’t tell which will be better yet.

Either way once it’s in memory the xbox will render it faster due to faster GPU, CPU and meme bandwidth.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

According to this assets still get loaded into System RAM, which in turn, is the bottleneck given the amount of bandwidth. Microsoft actually has the edge in bandwidth there, but lacks the SSD bandwidth to get it to the RAM. I know it's still apples to oranges, but the SSD and the amount it streams is only as good as the pipeline. I do agree that the PS5 definitely has it's benefits in loading assets, but I don't think people will notice all that much of a difference.

It's like 7200rpm vs 5400rpm, the later can beat the first if it can transfer more data per round. XSX using 560GB/s helps closing the gap, but never close enough. Games will simplify this a lot, we just need and see that in practice compared to each, although 3rd party devs will hide any weakness from each side to make the game run similarly.

 

[Fake]

Here are the current numbers:

Sometimes it's better with less talking and more doing

Strange... Last time I checked the DS4 bluetooth had indeed less input lag than DS4 wired.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Strange... Last time I checked the DS4 bluetooth had indeed less input lag than DS4 wired.

Maybe after updates? You know, things can get confused then later get fixed as wired being slower was strange, and I've seen it before myself.

 

[FranXico]

Strange... Last time I checked the DS4 bluetooth had indeed less input lag than DS4 wired.

That graph is standard deviation, not averages, the other graph shows indeed less lag via bluetooth.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Wait.. people are actually claiming throwing far more data/detail at a GPU somehow saves the GPU power? lol

OPPOSITE. Offloading unnecessary workload happening behind the player and focusing up front by lowering the graphics behind you to potato level or offload it completely the Horizon way. Max 22GB/s is 2.2GB per 0.1sec by the way, it's ridiculously fast.

 

[IntentionalPun]

OPPOSITE. Offloading unnecessary workload happening behind the player and focusing up front by lowering the graphics behind you to potato level or offload it completely the Horizon way. Max 22GB/s is 2.2GB per 0.1sec by the way, it's ridiculously fast.

I mean I get it.. but the overall amount of detail being rendered is still increased by the SSD. These techniques can be used w/o some super fast SSD too, and aren't really directly related to it.

 

[squarealex]

Strange... Last time I checked the DS4 bluetooth had indeed less input lag than DS4 wired.

Wired is only for DS4v2.

 

[ResilientBanana]

It's like 7200rpm vs 5400rpm, the later can beat the first if it can transfer more data per round. XSX using 560GB/s helps closing the gap closely, but never close enough. Games will simplify this a lot, we just need and see that in practice compared to each, although 3rd party devs will hide any weakness from each side to make the game run similarly.

It's not really like 7200 vs 5400, those are spinning discs and take forever. It's 2.5Gbps vs 5.5Gbps. Assets will get put into system then the CPU sorts it all out and the GPU will display it. The only case where Sony has the upper hand is getting assets off of the SSD into the System RAM. Microsoft has every benefit after that. So sure, games will load in 4 seconds on PS5, and 8 Seconds on XSX, But the XSX will have extra power to do more after that.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

I mean I get it.. but the overall amount of detail being rendered is still increased.

Here, you'll get the idea better:

It's not really like 7200 vs 5400, those are spinning discs and take forever. It's 2.5Gbps vs 5.5Gbps. Assets will get put into system then the CPU sorts it all out and the GPU will display it. The only case where Sony has the upper hand is getting assets off of the SSD into the System RAM. Microsoft has every benefit after that. So sure, games will load in 4 seconds on PS5, and 8 Seconds on XSX, But the XSX will have extra power to do more after that.

Fair point, mate. Both will reach the same goal with a different path.

 

[Zero707]

I didn't know Mark cerny said it's 9Tf. Why these sites keep pushing that narrative?? 

Why Cerny didn't say anything about the baseline ? devs must know this stuff after all it was a live stream aimed to devs

 

[IntentionalPun]

Here, you'll get the idea better:

Not sure why you think I need it explained further; these techniques free up GPU resources regardless of SSD and aren't really directly related to it.

 

[VanSiriusGabriel]

Not sure why you think I need it explained further; these techniques free up GPU resources regardless of SSD and aren't really directly related to it.

You can't free up the GPU if the storage can't free enough assets in time, that's the point. The need to have most of the things in place (with less detail, but still) keeps the GPU occupied even for things you can't see. This also free the RAM because you don't need to keep some things there if the SSD is fast enough to place it, while for an HDD is a much more rare occurrence.
Cerny idea is to have an SSD fast enough to completely take away stuff you don't see so you can load more in your view. He explain this in the conference.

 

[saintjules]

 

[saintjules]

Anyone see this? Grain of salt of course since E3 was mentioned in the article. Published today.

¿Cual es la situación ACTUAL de PlayStation 5? – Disruptive Ludens

 

[VanSiriusGabriel]

That sounds like exclusive bias

Spoiler

joking

Spoiler

no

 

[Great Hair]

Taking your wet dreams for reality my friend? You must have started confinement much earlier than the rest of us.

2009 to 2020 exclusives all look all the same

Spoiler

Kinect Years, Halo 4, 5, Collection, Wars 2, Gears 3, 4, 5, Collection, Forza 4, 5, 6, 7, 8
Forza Horizon 3, 4, Sunset Overdrive, Viva Piñata, Sea of Thieves, Crackdown 3 and of course loco cycle.

Except for Ninja Theory and to some extent 343 ... the other´s can´t write jack shit. More of the same, you all seem to be into that for the past 15 years or so. Why change now. NT was for sure a major letdown for Sony, after being funded by Sony (Hellblade 1).

If im honest with you, Ninja Theory will shit on every other studio microsoft has and take spot 1 next gen as best Microsoft Game Studio.

 

[Fake]

Wired is only for DS4v2.

You mean the rev? So, what version is this graph showing?

 

[Bladed Thesis]

In at 1600.

This thread is flying.

 

[it_wasn't_me]

It’s prettier clear Sony spent a lot of time ensuring streaming decompression happens well ( it will always put it in memory for either console) and MS velocity engine is designed for the same thing.

Sonys SSD is faster but that’s just one part of the solution. Due to the complexity and lack of detail we can’t tell which will be better yet.

Either way once it’s in memory the xbox will render it faster due to faster GPU, CPU and meme bandwidth.

XSX SSD can't be better because it has speed limits which are well known.

 

[Fake]

In at 1600.

This thread is flying.

Flying with console war, random tweets bullshit and little next gen discussion.

 

[Bladed Thesis]

Anyone see this? Grain of salt of course since E3 was mentioned in the article. Published today.

¿Cual es la situación ACTUAL de PlayStation 5? – Disruptive Ludens

This doesn't sound believable at all.

 

[it_wasn't_me]

You don't have a PS5 devkit, you are developing XSX games only ( for now ). And as a developer you are showing that you're damn biased, like Klob.

 

[Omega Supreme Holopsicon]

Even unoptimized last gen games load in about 5-8 seconds on series X. What people expect is lack of 1 minute+ loading times.

The developers would have to be extremely sloppy to make load times over ten to fifteen seconds top.

 

[Bladed Thesis]

Flying with console war, random tweets bullshit and little next gen discussion.

Agreed. It is what it is. Neither side can help themselves.

 

[squarealex]

The new naughty dog ?

 

[M1chl]

Here, you'll get the idea better:

This is frustrum culling, normal technique but it's just save GPU data. It still hast to be in RAM (at least what you can see). More advance technique would be occlusion culling like an Umbra middleware.

Maybe I misread, but this happens in pretty much all games, otherwise it would be hardly playable and this is why we have most often narrow FoV.

 

[VanSiriusGabriel]

This is not directly related to PS5 vs SeX but it's the same ex Crytek talking about the role of TFs.

 

[B_Boss]

A hacker stole and leaked the Xbox Series X graphics source code

AMD has been having a particularly rough few months, apparently. The chip designer has revealed that a hacker stole test files for a "subset" of current and upcoming graphics hardware, some of which had been posted online before they were taken down. While AMD was shy on details, the claimed...

www.engadget.com

Damn...that is rough.

 

[lynux3]

You don't have a PS5 devkit, you are developing XSX games only ( for now ). And as a developer you are showing that you're damn biased

Then I guess his game would have no load times on PS5 since no one will be playing it.

 

[Metroiddarks]

That guy is really obsess against Sony XD

 

[EliteSmurf]

This doesn't sound believable at all.

Yeah looks even less believable when the author has another article with the title 'Sony retard damage control '

Sony Retard Damage Control. – Disruptive Ludens

 

[FeiRR]

Strange... Last time I checked the DS4 bluetooth had indeed less input lag than DS4 wired.

This comparison was done on PC so I wouldn't look too much into it. Overall, joypad support in Windows is terrible and DS4 support is obviously even worse (third party software which isn't 100% compatible while faking an Xbox controller).

 

[-kb-]

A hacker stole and leaked the Xbox Series X graphics source code

AMD has been having a particularly rough few months, apparently. The chip designer has revealed that a hacker stole test files for a "subset" of current and upcoming graphics hardware, some of which had been posted online before they were taken down. While AMD was shy on details, the claimed...

www.engadget.com

Damn...that is rough.

That sounds like a description of the GitHub leaks.

 

[Fake]

This comparison was done on PC so I wouldn't look too much into it. Overall, joypad support in Windows is terrible and DS4 support is obviously even worse (third party software which isn't 100% compatible while faking an Xbox controller).

Indeed. Those comparison always lack info. IDK about DS4 1.0, but the DS4rev works just fine on Windows 7 without any third party software. Of course, without DS4 function similar to PS4, but I use as a normal controller. Last time I checked, only two or three games of my don't work.
Tomb Raider Gold is one of them. Even with the software with fake Xbox Controller that shit don't work.

 

[jackets with pockets]

This is not directly related to PS5 vs SeX but it's the same ex Crytek talking about the role of TFs.

neogaf.com/posts/257506509

 

[VanSiriusGabriel]

neogaf.com/posts/257506509

Oh well it's good to remind people.

 

[TheStruggler]

Good strategy, howd that work out for the xbox one...?

 

[VanSiriusGabriel]

From what I've read I'd assume:

1. It's a third party title
2. Third party titles wouldn't push the hardware as much as first party
3. Power difference wouldn't be exploited to its fullest as the title isn't maximizing out the hardware on either machine
4. Therefore a difference is noticeable but not exaggerated as both machines are within limits.
5. PS5 clocked higher due to advanced cooling patent in the public domain but not guaranteed to be used
6. Scarlett isn't using a Big Navi die due the marketing render
7. Phil Spencer has still backed off the performance leader talk. So assumed weaker overall.
8. Edit: both are final hardware - unlikely. APUs are not finalized yet

So in the best case scenario Scarlett gets a spec bump making it one CU notch below the PS5.

• PS5 4se 72a/80 @ 2000 = 18.4 TF
• Scarlett 3se 66a/72 @ 1850 = 15.6 TF

A power diff of 17% which you could pass off as barely noticeable to the naked eye in this situation.

Lol shit from page 200, just for curiosity.
Fair to say he got right the higher clocks due to the cooling solution, also quite a coincidence that he got also the % difference, but 66/80 CUs? lol 18 TFs? LOL
Sometimes people believe some BIG ASS tales.

 

[Great Hair]

dis iz der gamu ULTRA GRAPHICS !!11111


... ive seen better looking games made with NetYarooze 20 years ago.

 

[PaintTinJr]

the Minecraft demo was very impressive. it doesn't get more impressive when it comes to RT performance than running the whole game pathtraced

and at least it's not rubber ducks again or floating boulders n shit lol...

It is impressive looking and a major win immediately for a large number of gamers that are into Minecrafter like enhancing Fornite or CoD with 3D audio could be big for Playstation.

I’m not sure, but I’m under the impression it was 1080p30 or 60 they showed on XsX, and so assuming 10 rays per pixel for Full RT(including reflections and AA) at 60fps that gives:

1920x1080x60x10 = 1.244GigaRays/s

Or

0.622 GigaRays/s for 30 fps

By RTX current standards that wouldn’t really cut it for a whole generation of RT games IMHO unless targetting 1080p30 with a mid-gen refresh for 4k30.,

I’m still hoping for 5GigaRays/s from each of the consoles, or 2-3 GR/s minimum, but controlled by more flexible RT compute to get a higher effective number through efficiency/intelligence to exceed the 8-ish GigaRays/s touted by some RTX cards ... I know preparing for disappointment.

 

[Gamernyc78]

Lol my God talk about try hards in those comments the delusion and inecurity and the bullying complex is real

 

[Deleted member 775630]

Good strategy, howd that work out for the xbox one...?

Xbox One didn't have the upper hand that XSX has at the moment... It's a different situation.

Also lol at everyone commenting negatively at Dynamic Voltage Games, but don't have any problem with quoting Naughty Dog tweets that keep saying how fantastic the PS5 is supposed to be... The irony.

 

[SatansReverence]

Yup, it's more like GAF>REEEE>GAF. I've brought it up twice before, but you've put some amazing text to the matter:



That's the magic of SSD, concentration one less assets with higher quality.

Now try it with a player who hasn't got a big case of the slow aim, slow brain.

 

[VanSiriusGabriel]

It is impressive looking and a major win immediately for a large number of gamers that are into Minecrafter like enhancing Fornite or CoD with 3D audio could be big for Playstation.

I’m not sure, but I’m under the impression it was 1080p30 or 60 they showed on XsX, and so assuming 10 rays per pixel for Full RT(including reflections and AA) at 60fps that gives:

1920x1080x60x10 = 1.244GigaRays/s

Or

0.622 GigaRays/s for 30 fps

By RTX current standards that wouldn’t really cut it for a whole generation of RT games IMHO unless targetting 1080p30 with a mid-gen refresh for 4k30.,

I’m still hoping for 5GigaRays/s from each of the consoles, or 2-3 GR/s minimum, but controlled by more flexible RT compute to get a higher effective number through efficiency/intelligence to exceed the 8-ish GigaRays/s touted by some RTX cards ... I know preparing for disappointment.

Minecraft demo, according to DF, used Path Tracing, so basically the most advanced rappresentation of light you can get out of a videogame. I think it was still impressive.
I expect RT to be used tactically, but not to go so much further than what we can think of. New solutions will come up, so we can't expect anything precise anyway.

 

[TheStruggler]

Xbox One didn't have the upper hand that XSX has at the moment... It's a different situation.

Also lol at everyone commenting negatively at Dynamic Voltage Games, but don't have any problem with quoting Naughty Dog tweets that keep saying how fantastic the PS5 is supposed to be... The irony.

And if playstation comes out sooner and cheaper than the xbox who do you think will see more sales....?
This whole power narrative is irrelevent because
1. The xbox one x did shit all
2. The Switch which is the weakest console is bodying the ps4 and xbox

 

[Fake]

And if playstation comes out sooner and cheaper than the xbox who do you think will see more sales....?
This whole power narrative is irrelevent because
1. The xbox one x did shit all
2. The Switch which is the weakest console and is bodying the ps4 and xbox

Is Switch coming with a revision/new model for 2021? I guess he'll catgh up in his own form.