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[Ass of Can Whooping]

Again, if you're touting that the PS5 will focus on creating these NEW and GENERATIONAL games that can't be done on the PS4, while not wanting to waste resources on last gen games that should be left where they were made, why did Sony do it with TLOU?

It seems what's good for the goose doesn't apply to the gander.

TLOU was a PS3 game designed for the PS3.

What part of that are you struggling with?

 

[Psykodad]

Again, if you're touting that the PS5 will focus on creating these NEW and GENERATIONAL games that can't be done on the PS4, while not wanting to waste resources on last gen games that should be left where they were made, why did Sony do it with TLOU?

After MS screwed up with XBO, there was a massive influx of gamers on PS4 who either missed out on PS3, or never even owned a Playstation to begin with.
Remastering arguably the best game of PS3 was extremely smart to gain even more traction and get Xbox fans to jump ship. Same with a lot of the other remasters.

Killing 2 birds with one stone.

 

[MasterCornholio]

Were moving the goalposts now? Isn't it about garnering in a wave of new and generational game and not sales? This is one if those topics that will lose its purpose because people start adding irrelevant points.

Um we will still get next gen games and they will still help sell the PS5.

I wasn't trying to move any goal post. Just explaining why they made a remaster of the TLOU.

 

[Peenolia010]

TLOU was a PS3 game designed for the PS3.

What part of that are you struggling with?

That was brought to the PS4, yet people are having an issue with Microsoft doing from the initial release of the Series X. If the game was made with the Xbox One in mind or diminishes the Series X's potential of making it nex gen shouldn't be a issue but for some reason it's still happening.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

That was brought to the PS4, yet people are having an issue with Microsoft doing from the initial release of the Series X. If the game was made with the Xbox One in mind or diminishes the Series X's potential of making it nex gen shouldn't be a issue but for some reason it's still happening.

No one is having an issue with Microsoft putting Xbox One games on Series X, the same way they don't have an issue with Sony putting The Last of Us P2 and Ghosts on the PS5.

This is about Xbox's policy of mandating Xbox One support for the next 2 years. Sony is dropping support day one.

if HZD:2, Spiderman 2 and Ratchet and Clank 2, which (I assume) will all release within 2 years, also release for the PS4, then you're going to see the exact same compalints

 

[MasterCornholio]

That was brought to the PS4, yet people are having an issue with Microsoft doing from the initial release of the Series X. If the game was made with the Xbox One in mind or diminishes the Series X's potential of making it nex gen shouldn't be a issue but for some reason it's still happening.

The PS4 wasn't available when the TLOU came out though. The remaster happened much later and was designed to take advantage of the PS4s hardware.

It really isn't the same thing that Microsoft is doing with their cross gen approach.

 

[Peenolia010]

After MS screwed up with XBO, there was a massive influx of gamers on PS4 who either missed out on PS3, or never even owned a Playstation to begin with.
Remastering arguably the best game of PS3 was extremely smart to gain even more traction and get Xbox fans to jump ship. Same with a lot of the other remasters.

Killing 2 birds with one stone.

Not arguing remasters. Which is what the PS4 version of TLOU is, I have it. Can't remember who, but that person said Sony doesn't waste time and resources with last gen games because they focus only on current. Regardless of when, where, and why it was made, in my opinion it's a form of making a game multiple console compatible and accessible.

 

[Peenolia010]

No one is having an issue with Microsoft putting Xbox One games on Series X, the same way they don't have an issue with Sony putting The Last of Us P2 and Ghosts on the PS5.

This is about Xbox's policy of mandating Xbox One support for the next 2 years. Sony is dropping support day one.

We're arguing two different points, nothing that you're saying is wrong. In fact it's all correct. The point is both companies are guilty of make previous gen games accessible to current gen and with that, it's not a bad thing.

Where I see my mistake is saying has done this when it was actually 3rd parties.

 

[Peenolia010]

After MS screwed up with XBO, there was a massive influx of gamers on PS4 who either missed out on PS3, or never even owned a Playstation to begin with.
Remastering arguably the best game of PS3 was extremely smart to gain even more traction and get Xbox fans to jump ship. Same with a lot of the other remasters.

Killing 2 birds with one stone.

I'm one of those people. LMAO

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

We're arguing two different points, nothing that you're saying is wrong. In fact it's all correct. The point is both companies are guilty of make previous gen games accessible to current gen and with that, it's not a bad thing.

Where I see my mistake is saying has done this when it was actually 3rd parties.

Then why are you arguing about remasters?

I don't think anyone has said that's a bad thing?

 

[Peenolia010]

Then why are you arguing about remasters?

Not the fact that it's a remaster. I forget who stated it, but it was said Sony doesn't waste time and resources on previous gen games when they're only focused on current.

 

[MasterCornholio]

Not arguing remasters. Which is what the PS4 version of TLOU is, I have it. Can't remember who, but that person said Sony doesn't waste time and resources with last gen games because they focus only on current. Regardless of when, where, and why it was made, in my opinion it's a form of making a game multiple console compatible and accessible.

I understand what your saying now. It's true that if developers focus on next gen systems they can get alot more out of the hardware than a cross gen title. An example like you stated is the Last of Us 2 on the PS4 and PS3 compared to Uncharted 4 which was made exclusively for the PS4. Huge difference in visuals between the two games even though the cross gen one was optimized for the PS4.

I understand that if Sony invests resources into an old game or a cross gen one that would have an impact on resources that could go to next gen titles. Which is where I believe your point is.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

Not the fact that it's a remaster. I forget who stated it, but it was said Sony doesn't waste time and resources on previous gen games when they're only focused on current.

You mean this?

I’m against last gen releases when a new gen arrives. Games take years to develop, so you will see many releasing on last gen which are far enough into development unable to change direction. But once PS5 is out, and you start a new project targeting old consoles, you’re no gaming pioneer, your a bean counter rolling out product.

New gen needs mass adoption to create the user base supporting sales and drive tech and the medium forward. There is no room in a tech driven industry for some social justice mentality beholden to looking after little Timmy by giving him new games on his antique box, it’s about looking forward, next gen replacing the last gen. Necessity is the mother of all invention.

 

[Peenolia010]

The PS4 wasn't available when the TLOU came out though. The remaster happened much later and was designed to take advantage of the PS4s hardware.

It really isn't the same thing that Microsoft is doing with their cross gen approach.

Which is the point I'm making. MS is giving the people options to play the game across multiple consoles from the onslaught. If you want the best version Series X, a lesser but doable version, you get the weaker system's version. As oppose to what Sony did with the TLOU. Neither one are bad options like some people make it seem.

 

[MasterCornholio]

if HZD:2, Spiderman 2 and Ratchet and Clank 2, which (I assume) will all release within 2 years, also release for the PS4, then you're going to see the exact same compalints

And if they release an old game that's rebuilt for the PS5 there's no reason to complain about that either.

What we need to be on the look out for are those typical lazy cross gen upgrades. The type that only add resolution and don't do anything else to the game. Nobody wants to play PS4/X1 games at just a higher resolution when the potential for next gen is alot greater.

 

[Peenolia010]

I understand what your saying now. It's true that if developers focus on next gen systems they can get alot more out of the hardware than a cross gen title. An example like you stated is the Last of Us 2 on the PS4 and PS3 compared to Uncharted 4 which was made exclusively for the PS4. Huge difference in visuals between the two games even though the cross gen one was optimized for the PS4.

I understand that if Sony invests resources into an old game or a cross gen one that would have an impact on resources that could go to next gen titles. Which is where I believe your point is.

OMG! Thank you for for the clarification. I'm responding to so many people because of one my responses to a certain individual.

 

[Peenolia010]

You mean this?

Nope

 

[Shmunter]

Do you think that makes your argument better?

Yes. We’re finally in agreement. Glad we had this chat.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

Nope

Then why did you bother to jump in and make this a completely different argument?

 

[MasterCornholio]

Which is the point I'm making. MS is giving the people options to play the game across multiple consoles from the onslaught. If you want the best version Series X, a lesser but doable version, you get the weaker system's version. As oppose to what Sony did with the TLOU. Neither one are bad options like some people make it seem.

Honestly if games on next gen have to abandon current gen systems because it would affect the design of the game there's nothing wrong with doing that either. Forward compatibility has its limits and nobody wants to continue playing higher resolution XB1 games 5 years into the future. By then the newer games should he designed to take full advantage of the hardware and will have many features that the previous systems can't handle.

I think the issue here is that some people are questioning whether Microsoft will have next gen looking games at the systems launch. If they do then all this debate will be for nothing but if they don't then that's a different story. All we know about the competition is that they are going to show us games that are supposed to be built for the PS5. No idea if those games are going to look better than a Microsofts launch titles.

 

[Peenolia010]

No one is having an issue with Microsoft putting Xbox One games on Series X, the same way they don't have an issue with Sony putting The Last of Us P2 and Ghosts on the PS5.

This is about Xbox's policy of mandating Xbox One support for the next 2 years. Sony is dropping support day one.

if HZD:2, Spiderman 2 and Ratchet and Clank 2, which (I assume) will all release within 2 years, also release for the PS4, then you're going to see the exact same compalints

You're not who my post was targeting to begin with. Your points were telling me what I had already known.

 

[AnkitDanger]

All I'm asking for is the Horizon Zero Dawn Sequel.

 

[Psykodad]

Not arguing remasters. Which is what the PS4 version of TLOU is, I have it. Can't remember who, but that person said Sony doesn't waste time and resources with last gen games because they focus only on current. Regardless of when, where, and why it was made, in my opinion it's a form of making a game multiple console compatible and accessible.

I've somewhat followed the discussion and it's about crossgen games, right?
I don't see why we suddenly should claim "anti-consumer" for standard practice. Not releasing cross-gen games at the launch of a new gen isn't something new.

The only difference this time is that MS is forced to do it and is running a "pro-consumer" narrative, while they have to release crossgen titles as they've lost about 50% of their userbase this gen.
They're also likely to lose even more, especially by not having their games ready for launch.

New gens need early adoption, that's why companies shouldn't focus on crossgen.
Whether or not it's mostly marketing is irrelevant.
People who are opposed to this can easily hold off from buying until next-gen consoles drop in price and those games go on sale.

 

[Peenolia010]

Then why did you bother to jump in and make this a completely different argument?

I was debating with a certain individual who for the life of me I can't remember. I will go back and check in a bit.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

I was debating with a certain individual who for the life of me I can't remember. I will go back and check in a bit.

Okay, still don't get why you felt the need to change the argument then

 

[Peenolia010]

I've somewhat followed the discussion and it's about crossgen games, right?
I don't see why we suddenly should claim "anti-consumer" for standard practice. Not releasing cross-gen games at the launch of a new gen isn't something new.

The only difference this time is that MS is forced to do it and is running a "pro-consumer" narrative, while they have to release crossgen titles as they've lost about 50% of their userbase this gen.
They're also likely to lose even more, especially by not having their games ready for launch.

New gens need early adoption, that's why companies shouldn't focus on crossgen.
Whether or not it's mostly marketing is irrelevant.
People who are opposed to this can easily hold off from buying until next-gen consoles drop in price and those games go on sale.

I see no issue with how either company approaches next gen. I just can't wrap my head around it being something so devastating to the Series X long term some others see it.

The PS4 launched with KZ and looked good for a launch title, but it did represent what the system was capable of overall. We all know what games really showed the tech.

 

[geordiemp]

Honestly if games on next gen have to abandon current gen systems because it would affect the design of the game there's nothing wrong with doing that either. Forward compatibility has its limits and nobody wants to continue playing higher resolution XB1 games 5 years into the future. By then the newer games should he designed to take full advantage of the hardware and will have many features that the previous systems can't handle.

I think the issue here is that some people are questioning whether Microsoft will have next gen looking games at the systems launch. If they do then all this debate will be for nothing but if they don't then that's a different story. All we know about the competition is that they are going to show us games that are supposed to be built for the PS5. No idea if those games are going to look better than a Microsofts launch titles.

I think Sony and MS are doing the same things roughly, they are just at different stages in getting there.

MS have spent more time doing BC and a further ahead. Sony are doing BC just a bit behind (and cant tackle Ps3 cell).

Sony are much further ahead in next gen game engines IMO (Like decima) and next gen only games hence Sony statements. MS will do next gen only games for sure, if they had more ready soon they would sure be making more noise....and have gamepass to support..

Because of the different stages of progress, marketing machines and PR spout the usual phrases in early 2020 as thats where they likely are today.

Next year this will have all blown over.

 

[Peenolia010]

Okay, still don't get why you felt the need to change the argument then

With who? If I did change the argument then maybe it was with the person who may tried derailing the topic. You seem argumentative when I've already stated a lot of the points that have been directed towards me are things that I agree with. There are some that make outlandish claims that maybe I shouldn't waste time trying to explain.

 

[Peenolia010]

I think Sony and MS are doing the same things roughly, they are just at different stages in getting there.

MS have spent more time doing BC and a further ahead. Sony are doing BC just a bit behind (and cant tackle Ps3 cell).

Sony are much further ahead in next gen game engines IMO (Like decima) and next gen only games hence Sony statements. MS will do next gen only games for sure, if they had more ready they would make more noise. and have gamepass to support..

Because of the different stages of progress, marketing machines and PR spout the usual phrases in early 2020 as thats where they likely are today.

Next year this will have all blown over.

Pretty much.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

With who? If I did change the argument then maybe it was with the person who may tried derailing the topic. You seem argumentative when I've already stated a lot of the points that have been directed towards me are things that I agree with. There are some that make outlandish claims that maybe I shouldn't waste time trying to explain.

Dude.

No one in this thread made the argument that Sony doesn't bother wasting resources on last-gen in the context of remastering games. You're just making that shit up

Just admit you completely fumbled in your argument with Shmunter

 

[MasterCornholio]

I think Sony and MS are doing the same things roughly, they are just at different stages in getting there.

MS have spent more time doing BC and a further ahead. Sony are doing BC just a bit behind (and cant tackle Ps3 cell).

Sony are much further ahead in next gen game engines IMO (Like decima) and next gen only games hence Sony statements. MS will do next gen only games for sure, if they had more ready soon they would sure be making more noise....and have gamepass to support..

Because of the different stages of progress, marketing machines and PR spout the usual phrases in early 2020 as thats where they likely are today.

Next year this will have all blown over.

Good points.

I personally believe that having next gen looking games at launch is more important than backwards compatibility. This mainly due to the fact that those new games jobs are to prove to people that the upgrade is worth it.

Just my opinion though and I'm sure some people thing BC is more important since it eases the transition into next gen.

 

[geordiemp]

Good points.

I personally believe that having next gen looking games at launch is more important than backwards compatibility. This mainly due to the fact that those new games jobs are to prove to people that the upgrade is worth it.

Just my opinion though and I'm sure some people thing BC is more important since it eases the transition into next gen.

Then there is the discussuon on MS using virtual / abstraction layers which makes BC easier (Plus) but it also slows things down and is less performant / efficient. BG and that Crytek engineer tried to explain such things but it gets lost.

An interesting aricle from beggining of current gen on abstraction layers....by Metro dev. Yes its been improved DX 11 to DX12 to whatever, but abstraction still costs....

Metro Redux: what it's really like to develop for PS4 and Xbox One

As tech interviews go, this one's a corker. Readers of our previous Metro 2033 and Metro Last Light tech Q&As will know…

www.eurogamer.net

Oles Shishkovstov: Let's put it that way - we have seen scenarios where a single CPU core was fully loaded just by issuing draw-calls on Xbox One (and that's surely on the 'mono' driver with several fast-path calls utilised). Then, the same scenario on PS4, it was actually difficult to find those draw-calls in the profile graphs, because they are using almost no time and are barely visible as a result.

In general - I don't really get why they choose DX11 as a starting point for the console. It's a console! Why care about some legacy stuff at all? On PS4, most GPU commands are just a few DWORDs written into the command buffer, let's say just a few CPU clock cycles. On Xbox One it easily could be one million times slower because of all the bookkeeping the API does.

 

[Keihart]

One it's called backwards compatibility and the other forwards compatibility.
BC, it's ok, it shouldn't have much effect on new games although the whole design of the console it's affected to some extent.
FC it's trash because it forces developers to develop with a lower target spec.

How can this be confusing it's the real mistery.

 

[Peenolia010]

Dude.

No one in this thread made the argument that Sony doesn't bother wasting resources on last-gen in the context of remastering games. You're just making that shit up

Remasters may have been what I used as an example. If someone says that Sony focuses time and resources ONLY on the current system, and says it would be a waste to use on last gen game, while having a issue with MS going multiple platform compatibility from the onslaught seems short sided to me.

Yes I may have used the TLOU in a misguided way but I wanted it to be used as an example regardless of when and why the remaster was made. The point is Sony went back, dug up a last gen game, and poured time and resources. Which again, I have no issue with, was just me trying to prove a point on that alone.

 

[Peenolia010]

Dude.

No one in this thread made the argument that Sony doesn't bother wasting resources on last-gen in the context of remastering games. You're just making that shit up

Just admit you completely fumbled in your argument with Shmunter

Was it Shmunter? He was not the guy sir. You're really starting to make me wonder if you're really trying to discuss the topic or coming to the defense of a fellow member. If I make/made a mistake in my arguments, rest assured I will give my deepest apologies.

 

[Dick Jones]

I think this is just a concern that's developed out of your personal preferences. Actually, more of a hope than an actual concern.

Are you claiming I'm hoping MS fails? You are delusion if that's the takeaway you have. I'm pointing out MS are not giving the public a reason yet to upgrade as everything is cross gen. Every benefit you can apply to an Xbox One owner to upgrade to the XSX is the same as getting an Xbox One X, it looks better and plays the same games. I don't want MS to fail, if MS leaves the console market, Sony will not push itself. Competition is good for all.

 

[Peenolia010]

Yes. We’re finally in agreement. Glad we had this chat.

You're welcomed. Lol

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

Remasters may have been what I used as an example. If someone says that Sony focuses time and resources ONLY on the current system, and says it would be a waste to use on last gen game, while having a issue with MS going multiple platform compatibility from the onslaught seems short sided to me.

Yes I may have used the TLOU in a misguided way but I wanted it to be used as an example regardless of when and why the remaster was made. The point is Sony went back, dug up a last gen game, and poured time and resources. Which again, I have no issue with, was just me trying to prove a point on that alone.

Which no one ITT said in the context of anything other than next-gen games

 

[Peenolia010]

Which no one ITT said in the context of anything other than next-gen games

Sir I said I will go back and see where I may have made my mistake. If and when that happens I will let you know. Deal?

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

Sir I said I will go back and see where I may have made my mistake. If and when that happens I will let you know. Deal?

That's fine with me. But the people you were apparently arguing with are imaginary.

 

[Peenolia010]

TloU was never a PS4 game, but was updated for it.
Nobody is critizing MS for upgrading Gears 5 for the Series X, they are criticizing it for refusing to develop new games for next-gen.

I agree dude. Just not initially like we all assume Sony will. My point is it wont be as bad as some wre making it. Which is what my original point has been from the go.

 

[Peenolia010]

That's fine with me. But the people you were apparently arguing with are imaginary.

Shmunter? Can you tell this guy it's ok now? Shmunter....

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

Shmunter? Can you tell this guy it's ok now? Shmunter....

Can you just find this imaginary guy already and I'll join forces with you to destroy him

 

[Peenolia010]

Can you just find this imaginary guy already and I'll join forces with you to destroy him

I will. But you're assuming this whole time that I disagree with your points. You're trying to create a debate that I wholeheartedly agree with. Listen my two main points are; Sony used time and resources to remaster a game for the PS4 that wa

Sorry, you’ll never advance gaming as a medium if you drop an anchor. Or at least prolong and stifle it significantly.

I think both can work simultaneously if excuted competently.

 

[IDKFA]

Good to hear.

If I'm laying down a sizeable amount of money on a PS5 then I want experiences that cannot be had on current gen machines.

 

[Shin]

So PS5 Pro, when Jim?
5nm will be mature by then, make it happen cuz Apple is using it this year already.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

I will. But you're assuming this whole time that I disagree with your points. You're trying to create a debate that I wholeheartedly agree with. Listen my two main points are; Sony used time and resources to remaster a game for the PS4 that wa

You don't need to explain your points to me. You jumped in on the basis of a completely different argument that wasn't being constructed. You created that debate.

Now find me this imaginary man

 

[NeoGiffer]

 

[Peenolia010]

You don't need to explain your points to me. You jumped in on the basis of a completely different argument that wasn't being constructed

Now find me this imaginary man

After reviewing his post, I misread Schmunter in a crowd of replies. I already gave Schmunter his kudos.

Not making excuses, but me being new and getting responses out the wazoo got overwhelming and caused me to take Schmunter's post completely wrong.

Still down to fighting this imaginary poster with me? Lol

 

[Tulipanzo]

I agree dude. Just not initially like we all assume Sony will. My point is it wont be as bad as some wre making it. Which is what my original point has been from the go.

Yep, a point completely unrooted from how every single other console launch has ever played out. But I guess it is a "point".


Also, lol yeah we "assume" Sony will.