Support NeoGAF

[loktaiextatus]

Yes, Tim Sweeney was technically wrong in the context of the entire breadth of PC hardware, but he's right in the context of consumer hardware and most mainstream gamers (which is the demographic that is most relevant).

What does PC stand for? DO you think a server is a PC? IF so, explain how.

Just saying. Its not. Its a computer but its not a PC, its not a home computer. Just the volume level alone would make it unreasonable.

Could you put this in a PC? Well yes.... you could. You could also put a couple fiber HBAs in a PC and connect it to a big storage array
but that isnt exactly a consumer solution either.

 

[Romulus]

I like how fanboys are now trying to spin it around and sudenly ssd speed don't matter no more

Well of course XBSX gpu being 30% more capable is way more important than a little faster ssd.

More like 20% more GPU. And keep in mind ps4 was a full 40% more capable and ended up being almost nothing onscreen.

 

[Coolwhhip]

Didnt the Epic guy say PCs have a lot more bottle necks so they cant reach those PS5 ssd speeds?

 

[Rentahamster]

What does PC stand for?

Personal Computer

DO you think a server is a PC? IF so, explain how.

If you use it like one, yes. For example, the servers in my and my other friends' houses that we use for personal computing tasks.

Just saying. Its not.

Let's not argue semantics. It's pointless.

Could you put this in a PC? Well yes.... you could. You could also put a couple fiber HBAs in a PC and connect it to a big storage array
but that isnt exactly a consumer solution either.

I'm not sure what your point is.

 

[Omega Supreme Holopsicon]

Timestamp? Where are you getting this observation from?

we need to wait for the user who said that to say so. I've not watched the whole video.

 

[Rentahamster]

we need to wait for the user who said that to say so. I've not watched the whole video.

What? You agreed with him, dude.

 

[loktaiextatus]

Personal Computer -
If you use it like one, yes. For example, the servers in my and my other friends' houses that we use for personal computing tasks.
Let's not argue semantics. It's pointless.
I'm not sure what your point is.

Yes. Personal computer. And no. Using a server, sold as a server, does not make it a "PC" . You could argue you're using it as a workstation.
I can install linux on a PS2. It doesnt make it a PC.
I can browse the web on the front of a fridge. It doesnt make the fridge a PC.

If I get a USB keyboard and mouse for my phone, does it make it a PC?

Its not semantics IN THE LEAST. Its a completely , totally different class of hardware.
If I use a BIG RIG as a CAR it doesnt mean its the highest torque SUV on the block.

 

[MightySquirrel]

Wow really. Well good thing its only half that.

10.28 is 85% of 12.15. Its a 15 percent gap.

Equivalently we have like a 30 percent gap between the Xbox One X and the PS4 pro and.... sometimes you get a higher resolution or a better texture filter.
Go watch some digital foundry articles about the differences in multiplats between the PS4 pro and the XOX when thats 4.2 vs 6.0 ... a 30 percent difference.
You think youll run a game that runs at 1440p at full 4k PLUS better draw distance PLUS better raytracing with 15 percent increase in floating point ops?

I hope that works out for you. Because the 30 percent difference between the Pro and the X ended up having to knock Resident evil 3 back down
to the PS4 Pros resolution to level the framerate out.

Take RDR2 as an example. XB1X running at 4K, but on ps4 pro rdr2 looks blurry as all f. I believe it's 2560x1440 on pro, if that. And now we have same gap between ps5 and xbsx. SSD speed is nowhere near as important as GPU performance for gaming. Who cares if you can load a game 1 second faster on ps5 compared to XSX.

 

[Rentahamster]

Its a completely , totally different class of hardware.

No kidding. Hence my post a few posts back.

 

[loktaiextatus]

Take RDR2 as an example. XB1X running at 4K, but on ps4 pro rdr2 looks blurry as all f. I believe it's 2560x1440 on pro, if that. And now we have same gap between ps5 and xbsx. SSD speed is nowhere near as important as GPU performance for gaming. Who cares if you can load a game 1 second faster on ps5 compared to XSX.

Youre confused. Let me re-state this.
4.2 is 70 percent of 6.0. It is a 30 percent gap.
10.28 is 85 percent of 12.15. Thats a 15 percent gap.
The gap is half of what the gap between the PS4 pro and Xbox one X gap is. Its half. Its not the same gap my friend.
And what is with "one second"? If its a 10 second loading time it would be 5 seconds on PS5. Its not a one second gap its half.

The XBox one X is 30 percent GPU, 50 percent more RAM, etc.
This is a difference of 15 percent GPU and identical amount of memory. You're a bit confused on the gap in question.
RDR2 isnt "BLURRY as all F" on PS4 pro. Its softer yes. Its not to the point of being problematic. If you want to see
the game looking Blury look at it on a base XBox one its basically one big smudge.

So expect about half that difference in worst case and there you have it. Where as if I am sitting there 8 feet from my TV
playing the game I likely wont notice that as much as taking twice as long to load. If I am being adamant.

 

[Lanrutcon]

Yes, Tim Sweeney was technically wrong

I know! There's an entire thread about it.

 

[Rentahamster]

I know! There's an entire thread about it.

I know that too. So why are you splitting hairs over what the definition of "run a game" is?

 

[geordiemp]

Yes. Personal computer. And no. Using a server, sold as a server, does not make it a "PC" . You could argue you're using it as a workstation.
I can install linux on a PS2. It doesnt make it a PC.
I can browse the web on the front of a fridge. It doesnt make the fridge a PC.

If I get a USB keyboard and mouse for my phone, does it make it a PC?

Its not semantics IN THE LEAST. Its a completely , totally different class of hardware.
If I use a BIG RIG as a CAR it doesnt mean its the highest torque SUV on the block.

I cant wait to see the DF video

How to built a Ps5 beating PC for 15 thousand bucks

 

[mitchman]

The whole thing is stupid, even by Linus' standards. He knows, and but decide to ignore it, that a fast SSD matters little on PC (heck he even made a video about how little it matters) without the custom hardware to remove bottlenecks for the CPU and GPU.

 

[MightySquirrel]

Youre confused. Let me re-state this.
4.2 is 70 percent of 6.0. It is a 30 percent gap.
10.28 is 85 percent of 12.15. Thats a 15 percent gap.
The gap is half of what the gap between the PS4 pro and Xbox one X gap is. Its half. Its not the same gap my friend.
And what is with "one second"? If its a 10 second loading time it would be 5 seconds on PS5. Its not a one second gap its half.

The XBox one X is 30 percent GPU, 50 percent more RAM, etc.
This is a difference of 15 percent GPU and identical amount of memory. You're a bit confused on the gap in question.
RDR2 isnt "BLURRY as all F" on PS4 pro. Its softer yes. Its not to the point of being problematic. If you want to see
the game looking Blury look at it on a base XBox one its basically one big smudge.

So expect about half that difference in worst case and there you have it. Where as if I am sitting there 8 feet from my TV
playing the game I likely wont notice that as much as taking twice as long to load. If I am being adamant.

I was just being generous with 30% gap, but oh well. Be nice - get kicked in the nuts as they say.

PS5's 10.28 is a peak perfromance in rear situations for very short period of time. [~9 TF sustained perf is what you'll get in demanding games 90% of the time, or even less than that, depending how much better PS5 cooling is over XBSX and we all saw how 'potentially' great XBSX cooling design is]

 

[Lanrutcon]

I know that too. So why are you splitting hairs over what the definition of "run a game" is?

I think I stopped doing that about the time you started splitting hairs over which platform has the fastest SSD.

 

[n0razi]

If you have lots of ram, you can just download free Ram-Drive software.... I used to run a 20GB Ram-Drive off my 32GB DDR4 back in the day for fun.

 

[MightySquirrel]

If you have lots of ram, you can just download free Ram-Drive software.... I used to run a 20GB Ram-Drive off my 32GB DDR4 back in the day for fun.

Yeah I played with ram drives too, but games being north of 200+ GB next gen will makes that very costly. You'll need 256 GB of ram. It's much cheaper to just get a few TB PCIe gen4 drive.

 

[MeatSafeMurderer]

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but no. I think Star Citizen is the only game that requires SSD on PC right now. I would imagine that changes though, right? Next-gen consoles could push that bar higher for PC games as well?

I mean...I'm dubious of even SC needing one. I'm not going to give those scam artists my money but I find it hard to believe it would run poorly on a 15K SAS HDD. Granted, that's not the kind of thing you'll typically find in a consumer machine...but what about a 10K SATA HDD like a VelociRaptor? A costly investment, no doubt. Not worth it next to a good SSD...but...

 

[Coulomb_Barrier]

I was just being generous with 30% gap, but oh well. Be nice - get kicked in the nuts as they say.

PS5's 10.28 is a peak perfromance in rear situations for very short period of time. [~9 TF sustained perf is what you'll get in demanding games 90% of the time, or even less than that, depending how much better PS5 cooling is over XBSX and we all saw how 'potentially' great XBSX cooling design is]

This is extreme FUD. Or is this a joke?

 

[geordiemp]

Did anyone actually watch the whole video.

The read speed in windows was what again lol ? Did anyone watch the read speeds in windows ?

Only got fast / up to speed accessing without the windows overhead.

So what is the message here ?

 

[Goncas2]

Yeah. I could already put multiple SSDs in RAID0 a few years ago and have faster sequential read speeds than the PS5. This is basically the same thing, and it's a pointless comparision. The interesting comparison is with a single PC SSD.

And this doesn't even take into account the improvements in I/O that simply don't exist on PC.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

I was just being generous with 30% gap, but oh well. Be nice - get kicked in the nuts as they say.

PS5's 10.28 is a peak perfromance in rear situations for very short period of time. [~9 TF sustained perf is what you'll get in demanding games 90% of the time, or even less than that, depending how much better PS5 cooling is over XBSX and we all saw how 'potentially' great XBSX cooling design is]

We really back to this

 

[Rentahamster]

I think I stopped doing that about the time you started splitting hairs over which platform has the fastest SSD.

No need to be so defensive. What I'm trying to do is point out the uselessness of splitting hairs.

 

[Lanrutcon]

No need to be so defensive. What I'm trying to do is point out the uselessness of splitting hairs.

Your point was taken. I think in general we're on the same page when it comes to console stat wars.

 

[MightySquirrel]

This is extreme FUD. Or is this a joke?

Reality.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

Reality.

PlayStation 5 uncovered: the Mark Cerny tech deep dive

On March 18th, Sony finally broke cover with in-depth information on the technical make-up of PlayStation 5. Expanding …

www.eurogamer.net

click to read reality

 

[RayHell]

Have you seen the hit on the CPU??? 50% of the 64 cores are utilise to move the data around. That's what people doesn't seem to understand. PS5 move up to 22GB/s of data around (and this is the craziest part) with almost no hit on the CPU.
This is what makes the architechture so amazing and different from PC.

 

[rofif]

3 to 5gb/s is normal nvme speed. Games just never use it

 

[thelastword]

This xbox damage control is crazy. Are the TF's not enough anymore?

I think they see the argument about simply more TF without removing the bottlenecks is like a Elephant pulling a bear. Lots of power, but much of it relegated to doing processes that hinders it's ultimate speed and power.



As for the OP, What exactly is he saying? Tim and Cerny lied about PS5 having the fastest SSD? Really now, PS5 is a gaming device you will get for $500, so what do they do, they get a few SSD's in raid to push throughput, a setup not for gaming like PS5 is, not setup for gaming IO, a setup which does not have a DMAC for gaming like PS5, but is instead a random setup costing an arm a leg set up for enterprise and not gaming, we have no idea how it will function playing a game or vs a PS5, which can hit 22GB/s with proper coding.....Try getting this in a PC setup for $500...…..Try getting PS5 SSD speeds in any off the shelf SSD you can find right now.....Yeah Tim and Cerny are lying about that surely, because Tim has not been one of the bigger proponents for the PC space since we've known him forever...…. Sometimes we go too far with this, it's like XBOX fans are calling every tech icon liars or people who don't know what they are talking about.....Think about this for a minute, before we continue down that path. Enjoy Series X for what it is, no need to fabricate and attempt to besmirch icons because they have more favorable things to say about the box you do not favor....

 

[loktaiextatus]

PS5's 10.28 is a peak perfromance in rear situations for very short period of time. [~9 TF sustained perf is what you'll get in demanding games 90% of the time, or even less than that, depending how much better PS5 cooling is over XBSX and we all saw how 'potentially' great XBSX cooling design is]

Source of "Rare (rear?) situations and timeframe"? Because the lead system architect says its going to spend the majority of time at full clock.

Youre absolutely reaching. You think its going to drop hundreds of mhz below its intended clock? Devs arent saying that. Cerny isnt.
Nobody is but... you seem to have heard this somewhere? Source please?

 

[itsjustJEFF]

This is extreme FUD. Or is this a joke?

No dude. That guys legit. He's had hands on with both the Series X and PS5 hardware. I think he's making exclusive titles on both consoles. His word, it's gospel.

 

[loktaiextatus]

If you have lots of ram, you can just download free Ram-Drive software.... I used to run a 20GB Ram-Drive off my 32GB DDR4 back in the day for fun.

Did you just put DDR4 and "back in the day" in the same sentence? You and I have really different views of "back in the day"

 

[MightySquirrel]

PlayStation 5 uncovered: the Mark Cerny tech deep dive

On March 18th, Sony finally broke cover with in-depth information on the technical make-up of PlayStation 5. Expanding …

www.eurogamer.net

click to read reality

Can't wait for the same DF and others to finally help you open your eyes.

 

[loktaiextatus]

Can't wait for the same DF and others to finally help you open your eyes.

And if DF comes out and says "The PS5 is running at Dynamic 4k and the Series X is at a full 4k, otherwise basically identical, PS5 average loading times are 3 seconds, Xbox SX about 7 seconds" what will that do to open anyones eyes? Will it bring more exclusives to the Series X? By that logic nobody should buy a console at all, we need that bit of crispness
so lets all buy PCs right? The visual difference between the Pro and One X is something you could probably notice if you had them side by side, its a difference most could
chalk up to it running on a different TV in a different room. In some games its more or less. But the new systems difference is less than that gap.

I suspect there will be some games that you see a big difference on the X, like a resolution jump, and games where a place like DF finds a better lighting method in place.
But honestly do you really think its going to be like some kind of difference where the average person will look at a game and say "THAT CANT BE DONE ON PS5?"
That hasnt proven to be the case on the PS4 pro and One X yet... is been literal differences in crispness as you said, one looks softer. If you cut that softness difference
in HALF what do you expect DF to say about it ?

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

Can't wait for the same DF and others to finally help you open your eyes.

They already talked to devs who using sustained max gpu clocks

Just accept the facts before your eyes. It;ll save you the grief and embarrassment come holiday

 

[fran.fernandez]

We got some new pc for development here, 3k each one. Max speed 1.5 gbs... lol

 

[MightySquirrel]

They already talked to devs who using sustained max gpu clocks

Just accept the facts before your eyes. It;ll save you the grief and embarrassment come holiday

Can't wait.

 

[loktaiextatus]

Can't wait.

Just to keep the pot stirring.... Just pointing out 9tf (not even 9.2, but 9 EVEN) vs 12.15 is still a smaller difference than between the One X and PS4 Pro.
But its not 9TF. But lets imagine it is downclocked like worst case scenario... to 10TF even. Thats less than an 18 percent gap... its just over half the gap that the Pro and X have today.

But we will see in the fall. If it turns out the PS5 has no good exclusives and all the good games are third party and the difference is noticeable then Microsoft will outsell
the PS5 and you'll have been right and I'll have to buy both machines again (or even buy them twice like this generation right).

My real gripe is it doesnt look like I can stack the new machines. I have my one X on top of my Pro currently and it fits like it was MADE for it.
Like the footprint is perfect for it to sit on top. Like eerily. Works great.

 

[MightySquirrel]

Just to keep the pot stirring.... Just pointing out 9tf (not even 9.2, but 9 EVEN) vs 12.15 is still a smaller difference than between the One X and PS4 Pro.
But its not 9TF. But lets imagine it is downclocked like worst case scenario... to 10TF even. Thats less than an 18 percent gap... its just over half the gap that the Pro and X have today.

But we will see in the fall. If it turns out the PS5 has no good exclusives and all the good games are third party and the difference is noticeable then Microsoft will outsell
the PS5 and you'll have been right and I'll have to buy both machines again (or even buy them twice like this generation right).

My real gripe is it doesnt look like I can stack the new machines. I have my one X on top of my Pro currently and it fits like it was MADE for it.
Like the footprint is perfect for it to sit on top. Like eerily. Works great.

Oh I liked some of ps4 exclusives and couldn't care less which sells more. As long as theres many more great games coming next gen not just remasters and sequels/prequels I'll get ps5, but it's sad to see people blindly believe pr fud.

 

[loktaiextatus]

Oh I liked some of ps4 exclusives and couldn't care less which sells more. As long as theres many more great games coming next gen not just remasters and sequels/prequels I'll get ps5, but it's sad to see people blindly believe pr fud.

PR Fud all the way around man. As I said, I suspect the graphical differences will be minimal- I could be proven wrong, Nobody has seen these things running the
same software yet (outside closed doors obviously) and maybe you can really see/ feel a difference. I dont know. I will probably end up with both of them.
Really depends what third parties release on the Series X the first year or two, because I have the One X, supposedly MS is going to release to that also
at first and the games will be cross-buy to download on the Series X when I get one, so Im in no big rush.

And dont think Im shilling for Sony. You would not believe how irked I am at what they've been up to the last few days and now the delay. Not exactly
feeling the greatness on my end.

 

[jimbojim]

Enterprise and Data centre components far exceed capability of PS5 after sony and "devs" claim it's better than literally anything available, it MUST be secret xbox discord FUD!!!

Individually these SSDs are slower than PS5 SSD. It is RAID setup. What if PS5 SSD is in RAID setup, it would demolish these enterprise pack of SSDs. Right? Right

 

[TLZ]

Despite bold claims, there is already a PC SSD that is way faster than the PS5 SSD

Sony and Epic Games have been describing the PS5 SSD as something that high-end SSDs cannot come close to. Well, apparently he was wrong as there is already an SSD that is way faster than the PS5 SSD.

www.dsogaming.com

Did you actually watch your own video? He's using EIGHT nvme SSD's at 3.5gb/s each to achieve that speed.

EIGHT! And each of them is SLOWER. PS5 has ONE.

So go buy 8 nvme SSDs for $2000 you smart cookie. I duno why you'd do so unless you run a datacentre or a server.

 

[TLZ]

Enterprise and Data centre components far exceed capability of PS5 after sony and "devs" claim it's better than literally anything available, it MUST be secret xbox discord FUD!!!

Good to see PC continue to demolish PS5's weak specs.

And we have more smart cookies here. Great specimens I tell you.

 

[loktaiextatus]

And we have more smart cookies here. Great specimens I tell you.

you see, an airplane has wheels, and it can go a lot faster than a car. So therefore the fastest car on the planet is pathetic,
because the military has supersonic jets.... It makes about as much sense as comparing a single drive solution in a consumer
electronic device or home PC to an enterprise level system.

I actually just thought of a BETTER analogy.
Lets say tomorrow Seagate announces a single disk that is 30TB and it can go into a PC- and then someone comes along and says
"Only 30TB? Here is an EMC array that can hold HUNDREDS of 3TB disks, ONE SHELF is more capacity!" And then touting that the
30tb disk is crushed.... because thats exactly what that device is, is multiple controllers and SSDs in one unit performing RAID.

 

[killatopak]

The comparison is about commercial SSDs.

This is an enterprise SSD.

 

[93xfan]

Based on what exactly? Anonymous sources? Xbox isn’t going to be much different from their current consoles which already are a breeze to dev for, Scorn dev has already come out and said as much so I really don’t get this narrative.

Yeah, I would guess Xbox will be the easiest Xbox to develop for in their history. I’m just guessing PS5 will be even easier than that based on what’s being said.
I don’t think it will matter too much as most games will come to PC anyway

 

[Dirk Benedict]

This xbox damage control is crazy. Are the TF's not enough anymore?

Shit, man, usually more TFs meant you had the power. I want to know why Devs with 25 years of experience in the industry as 3rd party, are "fawning" over the hardware. Meanwhile XSX is getting the praise for the Tflops but nothing really else, aside from that(ok, Velocity architecture + Dedicated 3D Sound Chip)
I'm also reading that supposedly the sound chip in Sony's machine is better.

To be honest, I want to go with Sony's machine + beefy PC upgrades.
But wait and see is what it is, till then.

 

[polybius80]

I was just being generous with 30% gap, but oh well. Be nice - get kicked in the nuts as they say.

PS5's 10.28 is a peak perfromance in rear situations for very short period of time. [~9 TF sustained perf is what you'll get in demanding games 90% of the time, or even less than that, depending how much better PS5 cooling is over XBSX and we all saw how 'potentially' great XBSX cooling design is]

no, it was discussed to death already, the PS5 changes its clock based in workload not temperature

here you can see a developer that explain the video, there are more parts and cover all the presentation





and by the way TF/s is a measure of maximum theoretical floating point operations possible in a second, you can use it to compare two GPU as well as other metrics but that is not the game performance measure because in a game you do lot of things during your frametime that dont involve a floating point operation that impact multiple parts or even just being idle as well as your game run in frames and not every frame cost the same to render that is why game comparisons have different framerates in different parts of the game, also the reason why new drivers or booting a different OS can improve or harm framerate(the maximum theoretical TF possible in your card are always the same) or even certain games may run better in a particular brand, even basic game development tutorial will teach you that as you can see framerate in the floor because a slow script despite the GPU being more than capable, you dont really get the theoretical maximum TF in a game, you can run as much floating operations as possible per second as a benchmark or you run a game but they are not the same thing , the game performance is how good run the game in question and its multiple parts

 

[Kumomeme]

i dont know why people keep push this as 'xbox fans agenda to downplay ps5 ssd or whatever'

only those who gonna make fuss over this, is pc masterrace wannabe who probably doesnt even know a things lol..they just bunch those who always want to shit on console, pretending to be superiors, calling others peasant and stuff