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Developer Speaks About Lockhart "Holding Back Next Gen." And PS5 VS XSX Dev Kits.
MasterCornholio
Member
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
Your friend will get in serious trouble if his employer finds out he told you that.
EDIT: Seriously, talking about unannounced consoles is a very serious breach of NDA. Even if your friend is unaware of it, he risks his job with it.
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MasterCornholio
Member
Demon Souls isn't a remaster though. Plus with GTAV I believe they said it was an upgrade patch.
Mochilador
Member
So is Lockhart real then?
Yams
Member
This bit is important. A lot of people are under the impression that it's the other way around. Games are being built for the flagship "X" and then being scaled down for the "S".
It's mind boggling that people still have trouble wrapping their heads around scalability. One look at PC minimum and recommended requirements tells you all you need to know.
Rudius
Member
Vetted by
Bill O'Rights
[/QUOTE]
Could you please ask him if they are planning a VR port for Borderlands 3? I'm playing the second game on PSVR and having a blas
Bill O'Rights
[/QUOTE]
Could you please ask him if they are planning a VR port for Borderlands 3? I'm playing the second game on PSVR and having a blas
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thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Gold Member
That's a really insightful read into the dev environment for all of these systems, and kind of falls into my feelings on it. If I read that right, devs don't actually have Lockhart devkits in and of themselves, but software profiles on the Series X devkits to mimic Lockhart's targeted performance?
If those were changing in-flux multiple times, yeah that can explain some of the dev murmuring that was going around earlier on. But it makes sense to just use the Series X devkits for Lockhart since the latter is essentially the former only difference being a smaller GPU (that nonetheless supports all the same features as Series X's GPU).
Hearing about PS5 being easier to develop for now has a lot more context and we can trace that to PS5 devs not needing to mess around with a different software profile for simultaneous devices. I mean, there were definitely revisions to Ariel and Oberon chips and Oberon was running Ariel profiles, but those profiles were never being ran for an actual next-gen product, simply for regression to make sure things were working properly. And those profile tests were probably isolated to just Sony's internal studios before they got all that sorted out and sent updates to other developers. It'a a very different situation vs. Microsoft on that front.
And I think that's basically what the Crytek developer was also trying to suggest when they were talking about PS5 being easier to work with; even though there's some aspects of the hardware itself that may be simpler (the RAM setup for example), seeing that they're a multi-platform dev they'd obviously also be dealing with some of the same Lockhart profile changes on the Series X devkits and those being in flux a lot earlier on would cause some disorientation I'm sure.
But at least now it sounds like the Lockhart profile and tools have stabilized since the specs are pretty much locked in, and that has more than likely lifted up impressions working with it across the community monumentally. I'm glad to see this dev also dispelling some of the other concerns people have had; even if some of us folks on the forums have been mentioning some of the same things, some people don't tend to listen unless it comes from actual devs. And even then, they may choose to do so or not only if it confirms what they already want to believe, other evidence be damned.
The Halo Infinite rumors on 4Chan (I know, it's 4Chan, but it bears mentioning) say this is the exact case with that game, too. Series X was the base platform, then things are either redesigned and/or scaled down for Series S and the current gen Xbox systems. In fact, in Infinite's case that might run slightly "worst" (as in 30 FPS instead of 60 FPS) than Halo 5 despite being newer, since it isn't natively targeting the XBO for baseline development.
So it may run at half the framerate of Halo 5 on the older Xbox, but look better since it's, well, newer. I expect all of MS's 1st party are taking this approach as well. It's not like it's particularly taxing, either; SEGA was been doing this back in the '90s porting games like Sonic (obviously made with the MegaDrive as the baseline) to the friggin' Master System and Game Gear of all things xD!!
If those were changing in-flux multiple times, yeah that can explain some of the dev murmuring that was going around earlier on. But it makes sense to just use the Series X devkits for Lockhart since the latter is essentially the former only difference being a smaller GPU (that nonetheless supports all the same features as Series X's GPU).
Hearing about PS5 being easier to develop for now has a lot more context and we can trace that to PS5 devs not needing to mess around with a different software profile for simultaneous devices. I mean, there were definitely revisions to Ariel and Oberon chips and Oberon was running Ariel profiles, but those profiles were never being ran for an actual next-gen product, simply for regression to make sure things were working properly. And those profile tests were probably isolated to just Sony's internal studios before they got all that sorted out and sent updates to other developers. It'a a very different situation vs. Microsoft on that front.
And I think that's basically what the Crytek developer was also trying to suggest when they were talking about PS5 being easier to work with; even though there's some aspects of the hardware itself that may be simpler (the RAM setup for example), seeing that they're a multi-platform dev they'd obviously also be dealing with some of the same Lockhart profile changes on the Series X devkits and those being in flux a lot earlier on would cause some disorientation I'm sure.
But at least now it sounds like the Lockhart profile and tools have stabilized since the specs are pretty much locked in, and that has more than likely lifted up impressions working with it across the community monumentally. I'm glad to see this dev also dispelling some of the other concerns people have had; even if some of us folks on the forums have been mentioning some of the same things, some people don't tend to listen unless it comes from actual devs. And even then, they may choose to do so or not only if it confirms what they already want to believe, other evidence be damned.
The Halo Infinite rumors on 4Chan (I know, it's 4Chan, but it bears mentioning) say this is the exact case with that game, too. Series X was the base platform, then things are either redesigned and/or scaled down for Series S and the current gen Xbox systems. In fact, in Infinite's case that might run slightly "worst" (as in 30 FPS instead of 60 FPS) than Halo 5 despite being newer, since it isn't natively targeting the XBO for baseline development.
So it may run at half the framerate of Halo 5 on the older Xbox, but look better since it's, well, newer. I expect all of MS's 1st party are taking this approach as well. It's not like it's particularly taxing, either; SEGA was been doing this back in the '90s porting games like Sonic (obviously made with the MegaDrive as the baseline) to the friggin' Master System and Game Gear of all things xD!!
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splattered
Member
So if this IS gearbox, i wonder if the Lockhart itself why Randy Pitchford expressed disappointment with Phil Spencer openly on Twitter over next gen Xbox.
After a while he seemed to start praising more Xbox stuff again on social media, so maybe that was a reflection of them receiving word of Lockhart as a studio and then eventually getting the dev kits etc to really play around with it?
If i am making sense... haha
After a while he seemed to start praising more Xbox stuff again on social media, so maybe that was a reflection of them receiving word of Lockhart as a studio and then eventually getting the dev kits etc to really play around with it?
If i am making sense... haha
jakinov
Member
Because Anaconda does those same things better e.g. at higher resolutions, frame-rates and intensity. For a developer there's no holding them back because they don't have to worry about some graphical feature the card can't handle due to not having specific hardware that supports/enables/accelerates it.
Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
I'm sure he's aware. I appreciate everyone's concern. But it will be fine.
jakinov
Member
He has said nothing that would be considered secret that hasn't already been said by someone reputable who said they heard X, Y, Z. He mostly reiterates what's already been said before + throws his two cents.
Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
There is no reason to try and understand Randy Pitchford.
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pasterpl
Member
it seems that initially devs had to work with software profiles on anaconda that were ”emulating” Lockhart but at later stage they have received a dedicated dev kits for lockhart
TheCrimsnFuckr
Member
The profiles/actual hardware problem is something pretty iffy to be tbh as it means that early gen games likely won’t be well optimized on Lockhart which will kind of ruin the entire generation if to many big games at launch run relatively poorly. Hopefully they get fixed though, as I’m really looking forward to Lockhart
Gavin Stevens
Formerly 'o'dium'
Look I know damn well there is no way lockhart is a portable. It’s a smaller one x (form factor wise) from what I’ve gathered. A normal system.
But fuck me if that wouldn’t be beautiful... a 1080p TV / 720p handheld Xbox that played next gen games...
Christ on a bike... Imagine playing Halo MP on it while on the train, or COD while taking a dump.
Sign me up...
But fuck me if that wouldn’t be beautiful... a 1080p TV / 720p handheld Xbox that played next gen games...
Christ on a bike... Imagine playing Halo MP on it while on the train, or COD while taking a dump.
Sign me up...
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01011001
Banned
I can lift weights...
Arnold Schwarzenegger can lift weights...
does that mean I am as strong as Arnold Schwarzenegger? And training your body is useless?
no, of course not. we can both do the same thing, but he can do it better, he can lift heavier ones.
how is this hard to understand?
both systems use the same tech, the Lockhart just uses a less powerful version, which means that the effects that both can render will be lower fidelity on Lockhart.
Lockhart can Raytrace...
Anaconda can Raytrace...
does that mean they are all the same and will output the same quality? And more TFLOPs and more RT Hardware is useless?
no, of course not. they can both do the same thing, but Anaconda can do it better, it can shoot more rays and its raytracing effects will look sharper.
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Jtibh
Banned
Nah.
I was smart enough to wait 6 months and just work on my backlog.
Will do the same this time around as well
pasterpl
Member
isn’t that what xCloud is for?
Gavin Stevens
Formerly 'o'dium'
Absolutely. But a switch like system, that’s native? Native aways beats streaming.
lastmessiah
Member
Yup, looking forward to trying it on a Surface device.
01011001
Banned
I said it in the other thread... that would literally give them the instant win IMO.
but sadly that's not gonna happen
Dave_at_Home
Member
The real question is how much does the extra CU count actually contribute to real-world performance. How much will they realistically "improve" on? Will people notice in a side-by-side comparison? Is this going to be one of those things Digital Foundry zooms in 200% on a single frame to see a difference? Probably.fuck yeah, I ain't buying a <12TF console in fucking 2020.
Call it personal preference, call it drawing a line, but that shit has to last till 2026/2027 before the next real big boost.
pasterpl
Member
i have already tested it on my surface pro x (yes, I am one of these 3 Naive people in the world that got sucked by ms marketing and bought ARM windows computer) and experience so far is great, currently it is working similar to playstation streaming (from your local console over WiF) but quality and overall experience is much better
yes, that would be awesome (I am still using my ps vita), but question is about cooling and size of such a device, would they be able to make it to be comparable in size to switch, also, all that power would require some serious batteries
01011001
Banned
if Microsoft did their job right, the Lockhart should be almost indistinguishable from Anaconda on a 1080p screen. Because that would be the real world demo that the System works as intended.
but of course if you own a 4K tv, 1080p can look a bit blurry and just not great, especially if you sit close to the TV and if your TV is bigger than 50". that's when you would want Anaconda.
they have to show that Lockhart can actually fulfill this promise, if they can, I think it will be a success... if they can't on the other hand... it could be a giant failure.
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Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
How you got teraflops don't matter in that is beyond me. Teraflops are just part of the equation.
Gavin Stevens
Formerly 'o'dium'
That’s one thing I’m not sure on. Can it be done? Yeah, of course. Cheap and easily...? I’m not so sure on. The iPhone X has around 2tf of power, and when that came out it was like a grand... I doubt a system like that would be cheap.
Damn awesome idea though. I’ll just have to settle for xcloud and a decent controller dock.
Krisprolls
Banned
I said it in the other thread... that would literally give them the instant win IMO.
but sadly that's not gonna happen
Nothing will ever give them the "win" because it depends on games and Sony and Nintendo games are a lot better.
Shin
Banned
People were never going to notice them side by side and if they have both consoles they wouldn't care either way.
It will be 200% zoom, it's a point of discussion, for me it's personal as in 2016 or 2017 i told myself the next-gen needs to be 12TF or I'm skipping it.
In regards to Lockhart, what it is, what is might be, not really interested (except from a technological point of view).
lastmessiah
Member
There's nothing wrong with the Surface Pro X, it is a great device if you bought it for the right reasons. Everyone who has done so seems to review it highly. I hope MS continues to go hard with ARM.
-Arcadia-
Banned
Incredible post and insight, thank you, and thanks to
Bill O'Rights
for checking it all out, so we could have verified faith in what we're reading.
It sounds like every negative and positive rumor about Lockhart was true, that it did start off troublesome, but has turned into a much better product. Likewise, it's fascinating to get some inside talk on how the Series X and PS5 are sizing up.
Bill O'Rights
for checking it all out, so we could have verified faith in what we're reading.It sounds like every negative and positive rumor about Lockhart was true, that it did start off troublesome, but has turned into a much better product. Likewise, it's fascinating to get some inside talk on how the Series X and PS5 are sizing up.
ManaByte
Gold Member
Lots of people seem to be missing this part.
MasterCornholio
Member
They can always improve quality of their games however that will take some time to do. Sony took along time to do it so I expect similar for Microsoft.
Incredible post and insight, thank you, and thanks to
It sounds like every negative and positive rumor about Lockhart was true, that it did start off troublesome, but has turned into a much better product. Likewise, it's fascinating to get some inside talk on how the Series X and PS5 are sizing up.
Definitely not a product for me but I'm happy that it won't affect either of the other systems.
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Journey
Banned
This applies to Xbox One vanilla vs PS4 vanilla as well. The issue will come down to finicky gamers that want the best version. If Xbox Series X games have the better version of multiplatforms, aka better framerate, better effects, more prominent Ray Tracing or higher resolution, then it might just become the multi-platform game system of choice, and PS5 for exclusives, just like 360 vs PS3 gen.
XtremeXpider
Member
Well, Double Fine, Ninja Theory, Obsidian, Playground Games, and Rare are high quality developing games. They are at least at the same place than Sony and Nintendo devs.
MasterCornholio
Member
That could definitely happen but the PS5 will have some advantages as well so for some people it might be tricky for them to make that decision.
01011001
Banned
first of all... Sony games are better? yeah nah... Nintando? yes, of course... Nintendo are the best publisher in history with some of the best game designers ever... Sony tho? xD naaaahhhh man...
all the good PS4 exclusives this gen have been made by 3rd party studios like Ni-Oh, Bloodborne and Death Stranding... but they now have Insomniac (minus some of their key members) so now Spider-Man and Racthet would count as Sony games I guess, and they are good.
but let's get away from this and just look at what a portable next gen system would offer.
it would offer the ability to play every single multiplatform game that will be released on PS5 and Series X on a portable system without streaming. if people could play the exact same next gen games on a portable device, with full cross compatibility between Console and even partly PC... that would be huge.
Won't happen but it would be a fucking enormous selling point
Gavin Stevens
Formerly 'o'dium'
In your opinion.
This may come as a shock to you, as I know a lot of people say otherwise, but exclusives? The vast majority of people that play console don’t give a shit. They want a cheap console, that their friends have, that plays FIFA/COD/Fornite.
Don’t under estimate the power of a £200-£300 next gen console that plays these games at the same quality just in 1080p. Most of these people don’t even have a 4k set. This shit, despite what certain people say, WILL sell gang busters. And as a handheld instead, one that plugs into your tv no less? Good lord. They would have an instant hit the likes of which would Make Sony instant reverse their no more handhelds decision.
Never underestimate the power of third parties. COD, fifa, all that shit... it’s more popular than you think.
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Bernkastel
Ask me about my fanboy energy!
702: Dirt 5 and the power of Xbox Series X - Xbox's Major Nelson
majornelson.com
In the interview Dirt 5 dev said there is only one dev kit.
jakinov
Member
Based on all those companies track records I wouldn't be too excited yet.
MasterCornholio
Member
Technically they don't even need a next gen console for those games. All they need is either a cheap PC or a current gen system. That's assuming they don't give a dang about visuals.
godhandiscen
There are millions of whiny 5-year olds on Earth, and I AM THEIR KING.
In the OP, they acknowledge they started with a single dev kit and just got the real Lockhart dev kit.702: Dirt 5 and the power of Xbox Series X - Xbox's Major Nelson
In the interview Dirt 5 dev said there is only one dev kit.
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Xaero Gravity
NEXT LEVEL lame™
Then why are you surprised a year old game is getting a next gen port? Hold on to your butt because we're going to get even more.
Oddvintagechap
Member
That means they are going to use that huge power gap for scalable effects and resolution bumps? GPU is just for graphics apparently? Maybe thats why Sony is investing in some Playstation Ai. GPU can be used to give enemies deep learning of your attacks. Its a bummer, if the extra power is just used on frames and resolution bumps. Oh wells at least we got a SSD. Only thing that thats selling me to next gen right now.
Bernkastel
Ask me about my fanboy energy!
This interview was in June 11 and Dirt 5 is a launch title.
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01011001
Banned
the CPUs in these next gen systems will be more than capable enough to run all the AI you could throw at it.
enemy behavior is not limited by hardware, but almost 100% of the time by software, aka. the talent of the developers. also, in most games a realistic AI that can learn your moves would break the whole design of the game. most games' designs depend on the AI to behave in a predetermined way, otherwise the game could become unfair and badly paced of balanced.
the amount of enemies, that's where many games are hardware limited, but almost always on the CPU side, not the GPU side.
so that's a really weird expectation you got there, especially from the GPU side of things.
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NullZ3r0
Banned
There's nothing a Galaxy S20 can't do that a Galaxy S20 Ultra can do. Both are true statements if talking about basic functions.
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godhandiscen
There are millions of whiny 5-year olds on Earth, and I AM THEIR KING.
I’d say it is possible that the Dirt5 devs haven’t received the full dev kit. I don’t think it debunks the text. Honestly, the text in the OP doesn’t say much other than “Lockhart isn’t as underpowered as people thought”,
bitbydeath
Member
Context is key and we must understand all this information (if true) is centered around porting a current-gen game to next-gen. So comments of Lockhart can do anything Anaconda can is housed within that parameter.
I’d wait for more info.
I’d wait for more info.