Support NeoGAF

[Kazza]

The hype for the upcoming consoles has focused primarily on their new I/O infrastructures, especially when it comes to the PS5 (as attested by the million or so GAF threads on the subject). The Series X looks like being no slouch in this area either, with it's own (much less talked about) solution, Velocity Architecture. Other types of "secret sauce" are often alluded to, but rarely actually explained in detail.

Who knew that all along the chefs at Nvidia were busy in the kitchen working on a delicious concoction of their own. I'm talking about DLSS 2.0, of course. While PCs are often characterised as big lumbering hulks, having to use raw power (and PC users willingness to spend copious amounts of money on said power) to drive past the level of performance seen on consoles, this time around it seems that the PC is the one taking the more nimble and efficient approach.

I'm not usually one to buy into the hype, but the results of DLSS 2.0 are already plain to see. What's more, those results are only on the current line of Nvidia GPUs, we can almost certainly expect an even more impressive performance when the next gen Nvidia GPUs drop (probably a little earlier than the new consoles). I suppose AMD could have something up their sleeves regarding machine learning (it would be strange if they had ignored such a hot field completely), but if any of this tech is making its way into the next gen consoles, then both them and Sony/MS are keeping really quiet about it. One reason for concern is that DSLL 2.0 seems partially dependent on hardware (i.e. the tensor cores), which the consoles appear to lack.

Speaking of Nvidia and consoles, I wonder what they could potentially offer Nintendo for a theoretical Switch 2 in 2021/22? Maybe a 2 terraflop next gen Tegra GPU loaded with DSLL 3.0 tech could significantly close the gap with the much more powerful home consoles?

Anyway, the proof of any good sauce is in the tasting and I can't wait for the next-gen consoles and GPUs to be released later this year so that we can finally know for sure.

 

[Max_Po]

Nope, the MFer is Craig ...

 

[Kazza]

I still hope that AMD come out strong with their new big navi GPUs later this year, but I fear they have been caught with their pants down but Nvidia, just as they have done to Intel on the CPU side of things. Thankfully, with the PC you get to choose your own components, so in that case I would just go with an AMD CPU/Nvidia GPU setup.

 

[wordslaughter]

Hard to disagree.

DLSS 2.0 - alone - if the PS5 had it and the XSX didn't, could be enough to mitigate the XSX power advantage.

But neither console has it. Currently it's PC exclusive.

 

[Kazza]

Nope, the MFer is Craig ...

I fear that all the DLSS in the world can't save poor Craig

 

[Freeman]

DLSS 2.0 is good, cool, the others will work on their own solutions as well even if not as good. We are still talking about small details here despite of how impressive it is.

The real secret sauce is called great studios and money.

 

[Shmunter]

DLSS sharper image comes with too many compromises for now. Latest DF on Death Stranding checkboarding vs DLSS reveals overbearing motion trails on the cryprobytes and removes raindrop strikes - something DF omits for some reason.

Results are too unpredictable for now, needs work.

 

[SupremeHoodie]

A 2080 ti costs like a 1000-1200 bucks. These consoles will be half that.

 

[Thugnificient]

A 2080 ti costs like a 1000-1200 bucks. These consoles will be half that.

So will a 3070.

 

[wordslaughter]

DLSS sharper image comes with too many compromises for now. Latest DF on Death Stranding checkboarding vs DLSS reveals overbearing motion trails on the cryprobytes and removes raindrop strikes - something DF omits for some reason.

Results are too unpredictable for now, needs work.

Disagree.

Is DLSS 2.0 "perfect"? No.

The truly minor problems that remain come with a MASSIVE performance increase that MORE than makes up for a few remaining niggles.

And DLSS 3.0 will be a thing before either next gen console is released anyway.

With DLSS you can SEE the advantage, you can test it - it's real. Conversely we have endless PS5 SSD threads where no one can really point to the advantages. In fact it's exactly the ambiguity and uncertainty that fuels the endless speculation.

 

[Shmunter]

Disagree.

Is DLSS 2.0 "perfect"? No.

The truly minor problems that remain come with a MASSIVE performance increase that MORE than makes up for a few remaining niggles.

And DLSS 3.0 will be a thing before either next gen console is released anyway.

With DLSS you can SEE the advantage, you can test it - it's real. Conversely we have endless PS5 SSD threads where no one can really point to the advantages. In fact it's exactly the ambiguity and uncertainty that fuels the endless speculation.

DLSS offeres performance increases as do other upscaling techniques, otherwise we wouldn’t bother with any upscale. We are talking in context of comparing upscale techniques.

DLSS better than no upscale yes, but Checkboard better than DLSS on balance - for now.

The resolved detail by DLSS is off less value than the errors it introduces. The 400-800x zoom to show the extra detail is absurd and not how the game is played. If Death Stranding offered checkboard option on PC, that’s the technique that would be chosen by someone interested in the game’s integrity.

So maybe DLSS 3.0. As I said, needs work.

 

[wordslaughter]

DLSS better than no upscale yes, but Checkboard better than DLSS on balance - for now.

This is just false. Demonstrably false.

DLSS 2.0 is clearly and substantially better than checkerboard rendering, not only in performance saved but also in image quality and image stability AND it can achieve these results using FEWER pixels than are needed for checkerboard rendering.

 

[Inviusx]

Double the performance for double (triple?) the price.

Sounds about right.

 

[Shmunter]

This is just false. Demonstrably false.

DLSS 2.0 is clearly and substantially better than checkerboard rendering, not only in performance saved but also in image quality and image stability AND it can achieve these results using FEWER pixels than are needed for checkerboard rendering.

Not to me, not to many. You like a sharper image with gfx errors, good luck to you.

 

[wordslaughter]

Not to me, not to many. You like a sharper image with gfx errors, good luck to you.

Checkerboard rendering produces it's own artifacts as well. Just more of them and with less impressive results.

And who are these "not to many" you are referring to? A small handful of theoretical Sony fans who can't accept that a far more powerful and expensive GPU, with extra hardware components (tensor cores) could possibly have superior features?

I'm not interested in your delusion. The results are undeniable.

 

[teezzy]

A 2080 ti costs like a 1000-1200 bucks. These consoles will be half that.

You dont need a 2080ti though. My 2070 does dlss2.0

 

[captainraincoat]

Got my Secret Sauce pc build ready

 

[Shmunter]

Checkerboard rendering produces it's own artifacts as well. Just more of them and with less impressive results.

And who are these "not to many" you are referring to? A small handful of theoretical Sony fans who can't accept that a far more powerful and expensive GPU, with extra hardware components (tensor cores) could possibly have superior features?

I'm not interested in your delusion. The results are undeniable.

Denial is not just a river in Egypt. I’m glad we had this chat.

 

[captainraincoat]

Whoops forgot the IO Controller and the Fan..god i hate pc building its so time consuming

 

[Megatron]

PC gamers are so insecure sometimes. You can pour as much money as you want into your system. You can spend thousands of dollars on just the video card if you want. No shit PCs are going be able to be more powerful than consoles.

 

[wordslaughter]

More like mental gymnastics on your part.



Checkerboard rendering produces substantially inferior results.

 

[MrFunSocks]

I'll take native resolution over reconstruction thanks.

 

[Lethal01]

Checkerboard rendering produces substantially inferior results.

Sure, CR is what's used on PS4.

DF also stated that the UE5 demo was so good they needed new ways to analyse image quality. Acting like the consoles won't have tech beyond PS4 level checkerboarding is silly when they have already demonstrating having tech to match it..

 

[existensmaximum]

But isn't DSLL limited to just a few games..?

 

[Bodomism]

Not to me, not to many. You like a sharper image with gfx errors, good luck to you.

You just describing CB rendering minus the sharpen part lol

 

[Clintizzle]

More like mental gymnastics on your part.



Checkerboard rendering produces substantially inferior results.

Haha there is no convincing some people in this forum. I bet you the dude will reply with problems he has with Digital Foundary because they don't confirm his bias.

 

[jigglet]

I wonder if the people in this thread talking about how DLSS 2.0 isn't perfect (because there are minor artifacts only a trained eye would even notice) are the same people who advocate for native 4k @ 30fps as the better option?

 

[Shmunter]

You just describing CB rendering minus the sharpen part lol

The video comparison shows rendering errors at 10:00 no raindrops and 15:40 rendering trails on Cryptobytes under DLSS. That’s just what’s in this video, I believe rain is further impacted from other sources.

Having finished the game, Rain is regular part of the game and Cryptobytes are all over the landscape.

So here’s the thing, increased sharpness under DLSS with obvious rendering errors, or less sharpness with no errors under Checkerbording. The pixel density under 4K is so high that the CB vs DLSS sharpness difference is barely visible under gameplay without 400x still magnification, but not so the DLSS rendering issues.

And that’s the sum and substance off it.

On PC you don’t even have a checkerboard option, so take it or leave it anyway. But cranky children without their nap time will rage at simple facts.

 

[Max_Po]

So will a 3070.

Is NVIDIA giving away free case+cpu+mobo+ram+ssd+OS+case+PSu+controller free with a 3070 ? Because I will pre-order a 3070 before a PS5-XSX

 

[Soodanim]

I'll take native resolution over reconstruction thanks.

If that was a viable option for where things are going this discussion wouldn't exist

 

[SlimySnake]

I am glad pc gamers have finally got here but ps4 pro owners have been playing 4kcb games for almost 4 years now. Dlss2.0 is inarguably better but checkerboarding and all the other techniques ps4 pro games have been using has produced some stunning results.

Native 4k is a waste of resources. I'm glad pc finally has something similar.

 

[vkbest]

Hard to disagree.

DLSS 2.0 - alone - if the PS5 had it and the XSX didn't, could be enough to mitigate the XSX power advantage.

But neither console has it. Currently it's PC exclusive.

lol, you don't know anything if they have implemented some similar or not. Those consoles could have dedicated hardware for this, and don't need tensor cores for something similar to DLSS 2.0. We don't know almost anything from those consoles

 

[wordslaughter]

lol, you don't know anything if they have implemented some similar or not. Those consoles could have dedicated hardware for this, and don't need tensor cores for something similar to DLSS 2.0. We don't know almost anything from those consoles

Why so defensive?

Based on what we know so far, no, neither console has an answer to DLSS.

The only thing we know at this point is that checkerboard rendering is garbage compared to DLSS 2.0 and DLSS 3.0 will be out before the consoles.

 

[M1chl]

But isn't DSLL limited to just a few games..?

Yes, but that's only because you have to train it first. It's not something which GPU creates just by itself, but you have trained model, which is taken from 16K picture, reconstruction for all supported games are trained on nVidia servers and then you downloaded it through the nVidia drivers.

They aare looking to have one model for all the games in the future.

 

[anothertech]

Lol power of the cloud

 

[Soodanim]

Lol power of the cloud

Xbox One jokes aside, this is exactly the case where the "Cloud" is relevant. They do the heavy lifting somewhere else so the consumer cards don't have to.

 

[anothertech]

Xbox One jokes aside, this is exactly the case where the "Cloud" is relevant. They do the heavy lifting somewhere else so the consumer cards don't have to.

This is why I made the joke. It will be fun to see where it goes.

 

[Brofist]

I am glad pc gamers have finally got here but ps4 pro owners have been playing 4kcb games for almost 4 years now. Dlss2.0 is inarguably better but checkerboarding and all the other techniques ps4 pro games have been using has produced some stunning results.

Native 4k is a waste of resources. I'm glad pc finally has something similar.

When PC gamers talk about native 4K gaming they are usually referring to 4K gaming on ultra settings and high fps. Gaming on a PC in native 4K with console settings and 30 fps with dips has been possible on PC for longer than the PS4 pro has even been out, but that's not what PC gamers aim for.

DLSS 2.0 is a big deal because now you can play 4K looking games at ultra settings and 60fps+

 

[Brofist]

A 2080 ti costs like a 1000-1200 bucks. These consoles will be half that.

Works on every RTX card, including a $300 RTX 2060. That's literally what the hype is about, that you don't need a $1200 GPU.

https://www.pcgamer.com/death-stranding-dlss-2-4k-2060-performance/

 

[Thugnificient]

Is NVIDIA giving away free case+cpu+mobo+ram+ssd+OS+case+PSu+controller free with a 3070 ? Because I will pre-order a 3070 before a PS5-XSX

Woooosh.

 

[Mister Wolf]

But isn't DSLL limited to just a few games..?

The games that use checkerboard is limited too. Most of those developers with their own in house engine don't use that shit.

 

[Dampf]

DLSS sharper image comes with too many compromises for now. Latest DF on Death Stranding checkboarding vs DLSS reveals overbearing motion trails on the cryprobytes and removes raindrop strikes - something DF omits for some reason.

Results are too unpredictable for now, needs work.

That is one mistake compared to so many benefits to overall image quality with DLSS.

It's because of a certain incompatibility with the game engine providing not the right motion vectors. DF spoke about it and they adressed that issue, so maybe you should watch the video?

Works on every RTX card, including a $300 RTX 2060. That's literally what the hype is about, that you don't need a $1200 GPU.

https://www.pcgamer.com/death-stranding-dlss-2-4k-2060-performance/

Indeed, the RTX 2060 can reach the performance of a 2080Ti with DLSS off, thanks to DLSS. That's crazy value for $300.

 

[ripeavocado]

There is no secret sauce, the consoles are not next-gen worthy and so is the PC.

Next-Gen will come to PC in some years with serious Ray-tracing, then it will come to console as well with PS6.

This generation is half-assed

 

[eyesabitdull]

Ho

Denial is not just a river in Egypt. I’m glad we had this chat.

Top kek.

I'm going to have to remember this one for the future.

 

[Bodomism]

DLSS 2.0 - Sabaton and Powerwolf tier
CBR - Justin Bieber and one direction tier.

 

[Kazza]

Works on every RTX card, including a $300 RTX 2060. That's literally what the hype is about, that you don't need a $1200 GPU.

https://www.pcgamer.com/death-stranding-dlss-2-4k-2060-performance/

Exactly! The 2060 is almost 2 years old at this point, but with DLSS 2.0 it can now really start punching above its weight (especially once DLSS 3.0 arrives, assuming it's compatible with the 2060). IIRC, the Series X GPU is stronger on paper, but with DLSS 2.0/3.0 maybe a 2060 can outperform it in the future. Isn't that the essence of "secret sauce"? That a piece of technology can perform much better than you expect it to due to some smart engineering?

People here have spoken about the prices, but the 2060 is going to get even cheaper once the 3060 is out. I tend to agree with those who say that, on the whole, PC gaming tends to be more expensive than console gaming. However, come this winter it is perfectly possible to imagine being able to put together a Ryzen 3600/RTX 2060 PC for a price not too far off from the consoles, but with the all the benefits of PC gaming (plus maybe even better performance).

There is no secret sauce, the consoles are not next-gen worthy and so is the PC.

Next-Gen will come to PC in some years with serious Ray-tracing, then it will come to console as well with PS6.

This generation is half-assed

I agree that for the RTX 2000 series ray tracing looked like more of a proof of concept rather than a real feature, but the 3000 series is rumoured to take a pretty big leap in terms of ray tracing performance, but we won't know for sure until the benchmarks come in.

 

[BlueXImpulse]

People are counting out the SSD impact already? The gen has not even started. these developers can't all be lying

 

[Zoro7]

PC master race 4 lyfe!!

 

[Mister Wolf]

People are counting out the SSD impact already? The gen has not even started. these developers can't all be lying

All that mean for PC is higher system ram demands which were already low to begin with.

 

[Kazza]

People are counting out the SSD impact already? The gen has not even started. these developers can't all be lying

While the additions of SSDs will undoubtedly be a nice improvement over last gen, the problem is we haven't seen any real concrete proof of it being as revolutionary as the hype would suggest. On the PS5 I suppose Ratchet and Clank game is the closest so far, with its different dimensions, but that was a very short clip. On the Xbox, The Medium looked like a decent candidate for showing off the revolutionary power of the SSD, but now the PC requirements are showing that you can use a regular hard drive to run the game. It'll be interesting to see if any of the future PS5 to PC console exclusive ports require an SSD or not.

DLSS 2.0 on the other hand has already proven to be remarkably good, which leads me to be more willing to believe the hype surrounding DLSS 3.0 and the 3000 series in general. If anyone has any incentive to show the power of the new SSD and I/O systems then it's Sony (seeing how central it has been to their marketing effort), so it's their first party efforts I'll be keeping a particular eye on to see if this SSD hype has been worth it.