MasterCornholio
Member
The hardware and the dev kits are not exactly the same between the two. Like for example it's easier to deal with the PS5s I/O than the VA. What people shouldn't expect is a Cell Vs Xenon/Xenos kind of situation.
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DF: All Developers Extremely Happy With PS5 Development But Not All Are Happy With XSX Development
- Thread starter Agnostic2020
- Start date
The hardware and the dev kits are not exactly the same between the two. Like for example it's easier to deal with the PS5s I/O than the VA. What people shouldn't expect is a Cell Vs Xenon/Xenos kind of situation.
Md Ray
Member
Because the power gap between PS5/XSX isn't as big as the current-gen's PS4/XB1 or XB1X/Pro hardware. You can start off on the easiest console to develop for i.e. PS5, then just scale up the resolution on Series X.
DarthFeanor
Banned
Developers got PS5 SDKs first and they don't have to worry about S and PC versions to have games certified.
Both consoles are virtually identical to a PC.
Both consoles are virtually identical to a PC.
Razvedka
Banned
The hardware may be quite related but there could be other things at play:
1. The SDK or 'Software Dev Kit' which developers use in order to build their games on this hardware. It could be that one company's software is easier to use and also 'lower level' which means that they can achieve a certain level of performance against that hardware, and it might be easier vs the competition. To put it in different terms, let's say that Box A can push 20TF but Box B can only push 17TF. Box A is harder to work with, and the APIs/SDK aren't quite as performant as Box B. So it takes the developer more time to work on and ultimately they get, let's say, on average 80% hardware utilization on their game.
That's 16TF of performance.
Box B, while being weaker, is way easier to use and its APIs are much more streamlined. That box is able to hit 95% hardware utilization on average for the game. That's 16.15TF of performance.
So in this case the weaker box, because it is easier to develop on and has thinner APIs, has more real world performance than the stronger box. The other box, however, has cost the developers a lot more head ache and ultimately might be struggling to reach performance targets.
There's also the reality that they may be forced to make sure their game is running acceptably on a weaker iteration of Box A designed to target lower resolutions. This problem may be because the hardware of this weaker version of A isn't quite up to snuff to do an easy downport or it might be because the developers weren't given an SDK specifically to target that box. Instead, they just have the regular Box A SDK with a mode or setting to see how their game works on this lower spec machine. If the implementation of this mode/setting is subpar then that could be giving them a headache where optimization is concerned.
Look, we both know what I'm saying with 'Box A' and 'Box B'. But I'm not trying to push a narrative that this is fact, its just possible based on some (not all! This is a two way street) of the rumors and grumblings we've been hearing.
At the end of the day, Box A could have APIs just as robust as Box B and still retain the benefits of being the stronger console.
Full disclosure: I fully expect Box A to have stronger real world performance than Box B. I'm less certain this real world performance will be in every use case though, and that the gap is as clear cut as what we see on paper.
2. Box B has more dedicated silicon to offloading tasks (I.O., Audio, cache scrubbing, whatever) so the developer's pool of resources to create the game on is basically uncontested by these tasks. So they may have proportionately more to work with and less to worry about. It's 'invisible' to them, no toil necessary. The other box might not offload as much so they have to spend more time ironing out idiosyncrasies. Although I wouldn't expect this to be a huge shift for them, as the last generation surely offloaded a far lesser amount of work then this current gen on either system.
So there are various reasons why there could be problems on one machine vs the other despite sharing the same DNA of hardware.
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Explosive Zombie
Banned
There's been debate that variable clocks actually make it more powerful, I saw an insider say with variable clocks you can avoid bottlnecks better, because XSX is sustained clocks a bottleneck will always bottleneck it.
Jim Ryan has so far only given PC consumers games that were available for years on PS4 and then used it to advertise getting the sequel on a PS5.
oldergamer
Member
Anyone saying its 4 to 5 times faster is spreading pure FUD
oldergamer
Member
The outer worlds was a loading comparison and also not optimized for XSS or XSX
DonJuanSchlong
Banned
But can ps5 "sustain", the high end of it's "variable" clocks? It's called variable for a reason. Which means it will dip, otherwise it would be a sustained clock. Just about every dev and media outlet have stated that the series X it's the more powerful machine, and third parties will prove that point.
Giving PC players ps4 titles are NOT going to move hardware for them. That's why they are focusing on software. Which is why many believe ps5 titles will be on the way as well. Not the cross gen ps4/5 titles for the next 3-4 years, but the actual ps5-only games.
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oldergamer
Member
That makes no sense. Locking performance isn't a bottleneck in the traditional sense of the term, it's a ceiling. sony didn't have to use variable clocks, they chose too in order to reach a higher performance number. Variable clocks in this instance can raise or lower that ceiling without being capable of sustaining the high ceiling in certain circumstances.
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Bernkastel
Ask me about my fanboy energy!
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Explosive Zombie
Banned
The guy who said it, a known insider who's been reliable, claimed that because it's variable if there's a bottleneck one part of it can offload performance to the other to manage the bottleneck, with fixed clocks nothing can take power from anything else because everything remains the same consistently. I'm not pretending to be a tech wizard but it was Mat on ResetEra and he's been pretty well known as a reliable source.
DonJuanSchlong
Banned
Any neutral devs saying the same thing? Haven't heard that from anyone else honestly.
Razvedka
Banned
Neutrality is in the eye of the beholder.
Mobile Suit Gooch
Grundle: The Awakening
We pick and choose what we believe.
geordiemp
Member
No XSX has got more TF, we dont know the cache speeds, the cache sizes, and how the caches are fed and how well the are utilised.
Everybody posts why you cant just go on TF, you must have read that a thousand times already.
IF XSX had 5 or 6 shader arrays each fed by its own L1 I would agree, but its only 4 shaders arrays of 14 CU, so its not so wide is it and it has very abstract apis with PCs and everytyhing else it seems (this thread).
Its a strange arrangement, probably 4 instances server so they split shaders into 4. Lets see how powerful it is first before crowing power.
Ps5 will also have 4 shader arrays, each running 20 % faster and L1 feeding a faster 10 CU.....
Its universally accepted you judge power on how games run, not paper spec of 1 item, and what makes you think XSX is more powerful from what you have seen ?
I think we are going to see that excuse rolled out allot over the next few years. The power and speed will come sometime....honest guv.
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I don't think anyone is saying that it is hard to develop for Xbox Series S / X I think it's just more like making games for phones & tablets where you're not seeing much of a difference in how the games look on the higher end devices.
Explosive Zombie
Banned
He isn't a dev, he's an insider who knows devs. He's been proven reliable. He's also had this to say about the performance difference...
geordiemp
Member
Well the demos we have seen have been 4 to 5 times faster on ps5, so how do you deine FUD, we have eyes and we have been shown fast loading on Xbox, and its slow.
How is that FUD, is called an OBSERVATION.
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geordiemp
Member
He isn't a dev, he's an insider who knows devs. He's been proven reliable. He's also had this to say about the performance difference...
I am not surprised, have you gota link, what thread was that in on era ?
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DonJuanSchlong
Banned
So you trust one insider, because he coincides with what you like, but don't agree with other insiders, because they don't agree with what you like? That makes sense i guess....He isn't a dev, he's an insider who knows devs. He's been proven reliable. He's also had this to say about the performance difference...
Explosive Zombie
Banned
No... he's been proven to be a reliable insider. Who are the insiders saying differently, though?
DonJuanSchlong
Banned
So other proven insiders are wrong? I'm not understanding your logic here? There are devs on both sides stating x platform is stronger than y, and vise versa. Matt and Dusk for example, side with different info, but depending on which side of the war you are on, your vote can go one way or another. Which is why I asked for unbiased devs or insiders.
SaucyJack
Member
Spot on. It is evidence based on observing the footage that both companies have chosen to share.
That observation that can, of course, be revisited as and when Xbox shows us better performance.
Until that point one can reasonably say that PS5 loads 4 to 5 times faster.
DonJuanSchlong
Banned
Well Microsoft have started it's the more powerful, and won't be the underdog in terms of power and performance, insiders claim the same, even on paper it seems to have the advantage. And we'll see in 3rd party game comparisons for sure. But we know many will claim DF to be biased when that time does come. Even though they aren't manipulating anything, people don't like when their console of choice is the weakest.
Personally, I don't really care, but it's entertaining to watch. I'm on PC, so no worries about "power or performance" here.
sendit
Member
True. The diff here is the development studios. We can agree to disagree on which games you prefer. However, Sony‘s development studios have been churning out triple A titles since the PS3.
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Explosive Zombie
Banned
What other proven insiders? Dusk had two threads shut down and his mod status removed because of his bad info as an insider. He wasn't even making an argument about overall performance, just that one game was struggling hence the Matt reply about how he's seen at least one game significantly outperfoming the X version on the 5, his point was that stuff doesn't mean much mid-development.
Also, to your other post, Microsoft have stopped saying most powerful and now say "most consistently powerful"
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Kazekage1981
Member
i think part of why its easier to develop for PS5 is because its API's, SDK is custom-fine tuned for PS5 only.
XsX, XsS uses direct x 12 ULTIMATE which tries to unify with PC development. While this helps unify PC and console development, its not fine tuned for consoles. Although I dont think developers have even begun to utilize direct x 12 ultimate.
I am just speculating, i am not a developer.
XsX, XsS uses direct x 12 ULTIMATE which tries to unify with PC development. While this helps unify PC and console development, its not fine tuned for consoles. Although I dont think developers have even begun to utilize direct x 12 ultimate.
I am just speculating, i am not a developer.
SaucyJack
Member
They need to show not tell.
We havent seen a single thing from Xbox that provides evidence of their supposed power advantage.
This time last gen we knew about differences between PS4 and XBO games. This time around we don’t know of any performance differences other than Raytracing not being on XSX version of DmC V at launch.
Lysandros
Member
The thing is 'the most capable and powerful hardware' doesn't necessarily mean the hardware having 18% more (max theoretical) vector ALU throughput.
Dodkrake
Banned
No next gen games shown running on the Xbox Series X
"It's more powerful, trust me bro"
Series X Cross gen games looking like Xbox One games
"It's more powerful, trust me bro"
On Ps5, Next gen games with incredibly smooth gameplay, 4k and ray tracing, plus cross gen games looking appropriately upgraded
"It's shit, the Xbox will have better results, trust me bro"
"It's more powerful, trust me bro"
Series X Cross gen games looking like Xbox One games
"It's more powerful, trust me bro"
On Ps5, Next gen games with incredibly smooth gameplay, 4k and ray tracing, plus cross gen games looking appropriately upgraded
"It's shit, the Xbox will have better results, trust me bro"
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What about Capcom with Resi 8 and Pragmata?
No next gen games shown running on the Xbox Series X
"It's more powerful, trust me bro"
Series X Cross gen games looking like Xbox One games
"It's more powerful, trust me bro"
On Ps5, Next gen games with incredibly smooth gameplay, 4k and ray tracing, plus cross gen games looking appropriately upgraded
"It's shit, the Xbox will have better results, trust me bro"
What about Spiderman DLC and Horizon on PS4 and REengine?
geordiemp
Member
Funny how MS wording has changed. It now says
THE FASTEST, MOST POWERFUL XBOX EVER
Insiders, like Odium and timdog....
DF ? Your in a thread where DF are saying the power might be limited because of a common dev kit......LOL
DonJuanSchlong
Banned
MIGHT be. You sure love to build arguments on pure speculation. What if 3rd party games have higher resolution and better effects on xbox? Will you speculate your own reasoning as to why it's not the case as well? Isn't it great to love DF ONLY when it's convenient?
Vick
Member
I simply don’t agree. Outside of still great looking games like RDR on 360 or the Dead Space series, features from some FP like Killzone 2, Drake’s Fortune or Drake’s Deception are not even found in current gen games. Bluepoint themselves had to cut back and downgrade some stuff in their Remasters.
Other games like GoWIII have been ported well and in fact still look amazing. Sure it was not the norm, but that generation brought some insane stuff.
Disagree, Drake’s Fortune released in 2007.
But i know i haven’t made a good parallel with PS3 and the Cell, it’s not the same situation.
I know, i don’t want to imply studios like Ninja Theory are on the same level but they’re not that far either, you really think we’re not going to see amazing looking games on Series X?
Still, i’m confident we will be surprised by some titles.
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Bernkastel
Ask me about my fanboy energy!
Will be fun to visit these threads later, now with everyone claiming XSX version of multiplats will look worse.
He literally says they develop for XSX and then scale back, contrary to your claims.
Garani
Member
So, I wasn't imagining things!
Bernkastel
Ask me about my fanboy energy!
*sighs*
Inside Xbox Series X Optimized: The Medium - Xbox Wire
When it launches this holiday, Xbox Series X will be the most powerful console the world has ever seen. One of the biggest benefits of all that power is giving developers the ability to make games that are Xbox Series X Optimized. This means that they’ve taken full advantage of the unique...
news.xbox.com
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Neko Mimi Mode
Member
You're imagining things. MS still calls it the "world's most powerful console", cause, you know, it is.
MasterCornholio
Member
Probably but then the PS5 version will have it's own set of advantages. I guess it's up to gamers to decide which ones they prefer.
Lysandros
Member
They can always make 'honest mistakes' in their pixel counting like in the past...
How is that contrary to my claims? The games are going to scale across devices even beyond Xbox Series X
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geordiemp
Member
AS I have said, wait for the games so we can compare how they run, there is as much different in the designs as similarities so we need benchmarks. Both Sony and MS have keft out allot of information, Sony fast caches but no cache sizes, MS lots of CU but did not disclose L1 at Hotchips which is feeding allot of CUs....
We probably know less about ps5 than XSS, so its unknown, but we do have more games to observe running.
So as we dont know, its an unknown. You started the power narrative, not me.
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FeiRR
Banned
Yep, on the pillar. But this is alpha footage versus an already shipped game which doesn't have the same problem on previous gen hardware. BC issue?Unlike the State of Decay demo the pop-ups don't just occur in the beginning. As the player moves around you notice some pop-in as well.
I remember seeing something similar in Ratchet with the instant teleportation.
Notice the pop-in on the left of Ratchett?
geordiemp
Member
*sighs*
Inside Xbox Series X Optimized: The Medium - Xbox Wire
When it launches this holiday, Xbox Series X will be the most powerful console the world has ever seen. One of the biggest benefits of all that power is giving developers the ability to make games that are Xbox Series X Optimized. This means that they’ve taken full advantage of the unique...
Sighs
That was in june, web site says different now. What changed between June boastings and now ?
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Bernkastel
Ask me about my fanboy energy!
Nothing. The console was already working and playing games on March when they gave one to Digital Foundry and Austin Evans, who tested it with Gears 5, Minecraft DXR and BC games.