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[Riky]

That was my first reply to someone asking without having looked at any calculations. Could still be true, although a few posts later when I looked at the calcs I revised it down to 16 MB. If you want to mock my estimations, feel free, I dont really care.

Lets wait and see eh ?

The PC part of 40 CU is listed in apple drivers as only 192 bit bus, so its a balance ps5 is 256 bit so will not need as much for memory efficiency.

However, there is the ray tracing aspect. And quite frankly, if RDNA2 PC is chucking 96 MB at the solution, neither console will be in that game.

XSX has a wider memory bus, so it can get away with a lower L2, so there are many ways to skin a cat,.

There is one good thing, your starting to realise its not just about TF and memory bandwidth, we are making progress /..

I almost heard that reverse gear being hit.

Of course we don't know about the cache differences yet so that can wait. We do know about the three things I've talked about as fact though, I like dealing in facts.

I agree with you about Ray Tracing though, I think it's just the latest buzz word and these consoles aren't going to touch PC on that front. Not that I'm really bothered by that as I'd take framerate and resolution over it anyway.

 

[geordiemp]

The console with an inferior GPU, a slower CPU, lower memory bandwidth and is larger is now better thought out and developed

Looking at the power supply and the fact the PS5 has to downclock at a certain power threshold, a point a lot of people are conveniently forgetting, I'd be pretty surprised if the XSX is also cooler and quieter on top.

Just chill man, Cerny said in rare circumstances and by only 2 % clock, and remember the PC part is listed at 2.5 GHz. I would not hang my hat on the sustained clock arguement (where is the great white shark lol).

Its a balance, as long as you now realise cache size and efficiency is as important as number of CU. You realise how many CU AMD could fit in that 96 MB ? They are giving up terraflop die space for a reason. Not long now.

Both consoles will be fine. I am not saying either is superior, I expect them both to be similar and get there in a different way. All is fine.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Using more than two lanes for 3.5GB/sec is a waste. Better to go 4x2 and let the primary drive and expansion have their own lanes vs. them both being 4 lane drives and sharing.

Yes, 8-channel on high-end NVMe m.2 SSD's is also a waste. Anything that's not on Xbox is a waste.

 

[Lysandros]

The console with an inferior GPU, a slower CPU, lower memory bandwidth and is larger is now better thought out and developed

Looking at the power supply and the fact the PS5 has to downclock at a certain power threshold, a point a lot of people are conveniently forgetting, I'd be pretty surprised if the XSX is also cooler and quieter on top.

Yes an 'inferior' GPU with 20% (Up to 22.5% in fact) higher rasterization, pixel fill rate, cache bandwidth, better CU to cache ratio, and having advanced hardware features such as fully programmable Geometry Engine and Cache Scrubbers.

Edit: The same applies to culling and async compute of course.

 

[sircaw]

Yes an 'inferior' GPU with 20% (Up to 22.5% in fact) higher rasterization, pixel fill rate, cache bandwidth, better CU to cache ratio, and having advanced hardware features such as fully programmable Geometry Engine and Cache Scrubbers.

And if i was technical i would of said that, DAMN YOU

 

[Bo_Hazem]

The one thing we have not seen yet, to my knowledge, are the literal same 3rd party game running on both consoles to be directly compared. If we have, then I must’ve missed it honestly. Will be interesting from a scientifically technical perspective in terms of understanding the hardware .

Edit: Ive just read that Yakuza has been shown running on both? Surprised I haven’t seen a topic (or post) dedicated to breaking down the differences and similarities.

Yakuza looks like shit and yet dips to 24fps at 4K and looks very choppy with no fine blurr, and dips to ~50fps at 1440p, and needs 1080p to have solid 60fps according to Digital Foundry, and all of that without raytracing, and with LOD's issues and bad quality assets overal. Dirt 5 looks like crap as well.

I wanna see 2K21, DMC5 on XSX with raytracing to have a better comparison, as they look decent enough for comparison.

 

[ToadMan]

The console with an inferior GPU, a slower CPU, lower memory bandwidth and is larger is now better thought out and developed

Yeah this is critical data! There is a clear advantage to the Xsex here that everyone should be able to see.

So what res and FPS increment should we expect for multiplats running on Xsex vs PS5?

 

[geordiemp]

Yeah this is critical data! There is a clear advantage to the Xsex here that everyone should be able to see.

So what res and FPS increment should we expect for multiplats running on Xsex vs PS5?

 

[Snowdonhoffen]

So what res and FPS increment should we expect for multiplats running on Xsex vs PS5?

Minimum of 40 to 50 frames per second on GPU alone, it's math.

 

[Riky]

Yeah this is critical data! There is a clear advantage to the Xsex here that everyone should be able to see.

So what res and FPS increment should we expect for multiplats running on Xsex vs PS5?

I'd expect the same framerate and resolution targets. When it comes to holding those metrics when things get pushed I would think the XSX would hold up better, stuff like transparencies with the faster memory bandwidth.

Maybe shadow quality and similar effects. We'll all find out over the next 12 months.

 

[FranXico]

Yakuza looks like shit and yet dips to 24fps at 4K and looks very choppy with no fine blurr, and dips to ~50fps at 1440p, and needs 1080p to have solid 60fps according to Digital Foundry, and all of that without raytracing, and with LOD's issues and bad quality assets overal. Dirt 5 looks like crap as well.

I wanna see 2K21, DMC5 on XSX with raytracing to have a better comparison, as they look decent enough for comparison.

What the hell is going on with Yakuza? Is it running as BC?

 

[HAL-01]

The console with an inferior GPU, a slower CPU, lower memory bandwidth and is larger is now better thought out and developed

Looking at the power supply and the fact the PS5 has to downclock at a certain power threshold, a point a lot of people are conveniently forgetting, I'd be pretty surprised if the XSX isn't also cooler and quieter on top.

The “bigger number means better” mentality is the same that leads people to judge speakers by how loud they get, or leads them to buy a shitty car because of a high top speed. As has been explained many times in this thread, theoretical numbers do not equal real performance. There’s a lot more going on under the hood, so you do not get to say one machine is inferior to another until we see real data to corroborate it.

 

[LiquidRex]

Have Microsoft stopped marketing the XSX as the world's most powerful console, or am I experiencing a Mandela effect and they have never actually quoted that officially.

 

[Coulomb_Barrier]

I personally feel there will be multiplatform games at launch that will run at better settings on PS5 and there will be meltdowns and shock at this. The differences will be imperceptible of course but they will be there. I think the PS5 dev tools are easier/at an advanced state to ease development (hence the abundance of RT in PS5 titles) and the kicker; the PS5's hardware offers more performance comparative to the XsX than what the theoretical tflops number suggests.

We have about a month to find out. If I'm wrong I'm wrong, it's my honest prediction.

 

[Riky]

The “bigger number means better” mentality is the same that leads people to judge speakers by how loud they get, or leads them to buy a shitty car because of a high top speed. As has been explained many times in this thread, theoretical numbers do not equal real performance. There’s a lot more going on under the hood, so you do not get to say one machine is inferior to another until we see real data to corroborate it.

I didn't say that.

I said with the metrics we KNOW it's a bit of a stretch to say the least to say the other console is better developed.

 

[FranXico]

Have Microsoft stopped marketing the XSX as the world's most powerful console, or am I experiencing a Mandela effect and they have never actually quoted that officially.

Nothing is changed. The XSX GPU still has more compute capability.

 

[sircaw]

I didn't say that.

I said with the metrics we KNOW it's a bit of a stretch to say the least to say the other console is better developed.

If Xbox is such a more powerful machine with those metrics you pointed out and ps5 gets close to it in performance with lower specs that means the design on the ps5 must be superior?

Yes? or No?

Dirt 120 fps both machines
Assasins creed 4k 60 fps both machines, i am seeing a pattern here.

Or is it that old chestnut, shitty developers did not optimize the game?

 

[geordiemp]

Nothing is changed. The XSX GPU still has more compute capability.

Yup TF is not changed, it will be far superior for mining.

 

[LiquidRex]

Nothing is changed. The XSX GPU still has more compute capability.

Yeah I hear that... But I'm sure Microsoft officially quoted the XSX as the World's Most Powerful Console... But I can't find that... For example going to GB site, the XSX is quoted as the most Powerful Xbox console ever.

 

[Deleted member 775630]

Does anyone know where it still officially says by Microsoft that the Xbox Series X is the a world's most powerful console
Has that now changed...

Have Microsoft stopped marketing the XSX as the world's most powerful console, or am I experiencing a Mandela effect and they have never actually quoted that officially.

You really care about this I see. Nothing has changed, also not in their marketing. Their website still says the most powerful and fastest.

 

[FunkMiller]

If Xbox is such a more powerful machine with those metrics you pointed out and ps5 gets close to it in performance with lower specs that means the design on the ps5 must be superior?

Yes? or No?

Dirt 120 fps both machines
Assasins creed 4k 60 fps both machines, i am seeing a pattern here.

Or is it that old chestnut, shitty developers did not optimize the game?

I really do hope that XBox pull their finger out and show something actually great on XSX, because it’ll calm posters like that guy and Kagey K down a bit. All of this anger comes from a frustration that their console is currently not comparing favourably to the other one, in terms of evidence of its power and capabilities.

 

[HAL-01]

I didn't say that.

I said with the metrics we KNOW it's a bit of a stretch to say the least to say the other console is better developed.

Yes, and what I’m saying is spec sheets and theoretical metrics tell you nothing about how well thought out and engineered a piece of hardware is. Customization and optimization are the name of the game. It’s the reason iPhones perform better than phones with twice the ram and higher ghz octacore cpus. To suggest one is better engineered than another because of a basic spec sheet is ridiculous, and any actual compsci engineer would tell you that

 

[ToadMan]

I'd expect the same framerate and resolution targets. When it comes to holding those metrics when things get pushed I would think the XSX would hold up better, stuff like transparencies with the faster memory bandwidth.

Maybe shadow quality and similar effects. We'll all find out over the next 12 months.

Uh huh. So all that extra power results in zero practical difference.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

What the hell is going on with Yakuza? Is it running as BC?

It looks pretty much current gen, yet the performance isn't good on XSX so far.

Yakuza 0 current gen:

Yakuza: Like a Dragon on XSX

 

[onesvenus]

I don’t see a reflection from any character.

I think you’re looking at the one character that happens to lineup with the reflection from the scenery.

Looking more at them, you might be right

 

[Snowdonhoffen]

You really care about this I see. Nothing has changed, also not in their marketing. Their website still says the most powerful and fastest.

I'm pretty sure the "Fastest. Most Powerful" thing has always refered to "The fastest, most powerful Xbox ever" since it was announced.
Edit: Added the announcement article from march.

Xbox Series X: A Closer Look at the Technology Powering the Next Generation - Xbox Wire

A few months ago, we revealed Xbox Series X, our fastest, most powerful console ever, designed for a console generation that has you, the player, at its center. When it is released this holiday season, Xbox Series X will set a new bar for performance, speed and compatibility, all while allowing...

news.xbox.com

.

A few months ago, we revealed Xbox Series X, our fastest, most powerful console ever.

 

[sircaw]

I really do hope that XBox pull their finger out and show something actually great on XSX, because it’ll calm posters like that guy and Kagey K down a bit. All of this anger comes from a frustration that their console is currently not comparing favourably to the other one, in terms of evidence of its power and capabilities.

He was a bit unhinged this morning, i understand his frustration. But i forgive him.

the multiplay games have not looked good, Only dirt, assassins creed and that turned based yakuza game, its not the showing you expect from a next-gen showing.

On ps5 sides at least we have had demon souls, Spiderman, rachet and clank etc, yer so i get him being a bit mad .

 

[ToadMan]

Minimum of 40 to 50 frames per second on GPU alone, it's math.

I still like this

"For the Series X, this work is offloaded onto dedicated hardware and the shader can continue to run in parallel with full performance. In other words, Series X can effectively tap the equivalent of well over 25 TFLOPs of performance while ray tracing."

 

[LivingD3AD]

What the hell is going on with Yakuza? Is it running as BC?

Nope, it has been optimized to fully utilize XsX power

 

[ToadMan]

Looking more at them, you might be right

I looked at that guy for a while too because I thought it was his reflection on the flooring.

To be honest I don’t normally notice this stuff until someone else points it out - but for some reason that particular capture didn’t quite look right.

As it happens I also noticed the weird reflections in the Spider-Man window capture.

If it turns out I’m sensitive to poor ray tracing fidelity this could be a long generation for me!

 

[Lunatic_Gamer]

Fan Made PlayStation 5 Graphics Concept

 

[sircaw]

Xbox just needs to show a working version of Grim Dawn up and running and be done with all the bullshit.

One of the best action rpg games out there and its coming only to xbox and pc.

I really wish they would promote that game more, its the best rpg in imo on the market and they have not said one word about it.

It would be one of the sole reasons i would get an xbox, its that damn good.

 

[FunkMiller]

He was a bit unhinged this morning, i understand his frustration. But i forgive him.

the multiplay games have not looked good, Only dirt, assassins creed and that turned based yakuza game, its not the showing you expect from a next-gen showing.

On ps5 sides at least we have had demon souls, Spiderman, rachet and clank etc, yer so i get him being a bit mad .

Unfortunately, human psychology tends to dictate that when you have hung your strong allegiances to a particular organisation, when that organisation fails to live up to your expectations, it’s much easier to take your frustrations out on those who are aligned with the competition, than it is to criticise the organisation itself.

If XBox does show games footage that parallels Ps5’s, some of the anger and heat will go out of this thread, and the forum in general. I truly hope they do this very soon.

 

[LiquidRex]

I'm pretty sure the "Fastest. Most Powerful" thing has always refered to "The fastest, most powerful Xbox ever" since it was announced.
Edit: Added the announcement article from march.

Xbox Series X: A Closer Look at the Technology Powering the Next Generation - Xbox Wire

A few months ago, we revealed Xbox Series X, our fastest, most powerful console ever, designed for a console generation that has you, the player, at its center. When it is released this holiday season, Xbox Series X will set a new bar for performance, speed and compatibility, all while allowing...

news.xbox.com

.

See, here... This isn't quoted anywhere officially on Microsofts sites currently.... but I'm sure at one time it was.

 

[Lysandros]

I'm pretty sure the "Fastest. Most Powerful" thing has always refered to "The fastest, most powerful Xbox ever" since it was announced.
Edit: Added the announcement article from march.

Xbox Series X: A Closer Look at the Technology Powering the Next Generation - Xbox Wire

A few months ago, we revealed Xbox Series X, our fastest, most powerful console ever, designed for a console generation that has you, the player, at its center. When it is released this holiday season, Xbox Series X will set a new bar for performance, speed and compatibility, all while allowing...

news.xbox.com

.

It would be wise of them since XSX being the 'most powerful' is highly debatable and it's definitely not the 'fastest'.

 

[sircaw]

Unfortunately, human psychology tends to dictate that when you have hung your strong allegiances to a particular organisation, when that organisation fails to live up to your expectations, it’s much easier to take your frustrations out on those who are aligned with the competition, than it is to criticise the organisation itself.

If XBox does show games footage that parallels Ps5’s, some of the anger and heat will go out of this thread, and the forum in general. I truly hope they do this very soon.

Its months and months of Fud, and all the dick-waving bullshit of how much better this console will be.

Most of the arguments you get out of here are straight from the dealer/eastwood manual. All i have heard about the last 3 months is the power of 12 tflops, so sick out it. Stop fucking telling me and show me.

Now we have got games coming out and some of them look like shit and people are starting to defend those as well.

I got people saying Ass creed looks good, the only reason they are doing that is because xbox has a very small amount of launch games so, they are treating them like gold dust.

I am fucking sorry, Ass creed looks like shit, on xbox and ps5, Dirt to me looks like shit on xbox, and i would 99.99 percent imagine it's going to look like shit on ps5.

I have see spiderman, looks amazing
I have seen Demon souls looks amazing
R+c Jesus amazing

Bugsnax, fuck me sideways and bury under 200 tonnes of rubble. For my niece is amazing.

Why do people keep defending these multiple games is beyond me.





I

 

[Snowdonhoffen]

See, here... This isn't quoted anywhere officially on Microsofts sites currently.... but I'm sure at one time it was.

Yeah, I kinda remember the "World's Most Powerful Console" tagline being on the website, but I could be mistaking it with the Xbox One X tho.

 

[Nowcry]

It's also very likely that both camps picked clocks somewhat based on the power envelope they were looking to hit. MS had a wider design and that combined with the stated goal of being 1:1 in power consumption with 1X likely limited them to the chosen clocks. Though MS appears to choose clocks very deliberately, choosing based on the TF target.

Knowing the performance of RDNA2 is:
80 CU at 2.4 GHz TGP 255W

52 CU at 1.86 Ghz at 210W I don't think they don't have a TGP budget to upload them.

It seems strange to me that they are so far from what RDNA2 achieved, there really must be some more reason, since the TGP should be enough to reach even 2 GHz.

 

[FunkMiller]

Why do people keep defending these multiplat games is beyond me.

Fundamentally, Microsoft’s inability to have first party games at launch is the issue. When all you can show is third party cross gen titles from developers with sketchy coding (looking at you, Ubishit) then things probably aren’t going to go well for you.

The one thing no one can get away from is the fundamental truth that games sell consoles. Nothing else matters. If you can’t show games that fully show the power and capabilities of your console, you’re dead in the water to the wider consumer base. Do any of us doubt that XsX is a very powerful console? No.

But, instead of being angry at Microsoft for letting them down like this, some (certainly not all by any means) XBox fans have decided to throw shade at those who lean more towards Ps5... despite the fact that the only reason most people are doing this is because Sony HAVE shown first party titles that show off their console’s power and capabilities.

While a minority of people will just support a console whatever they see running on it, most people just want to play the best games on the best platform, and when it comes to console gaming right now, all evidence points towards the Ps5 being the best place.

It‘s up to Microsoft to change that perception, and for XBox fans to take it up with them if they don’t, instead of acting like asshats to their fellow gamers.

 

[Shmunter]

This is pretty lame. I assume there's a good reason why the new camera can't work with PSVR, but I would really like Sony to clear a few things about the whole implementation of VR on Ps5 anyway. And when and where do we get these adaptors from? They haven't said they're included in the box.

Article states adaptor included.....” You'll also need to use the included PS Camera adaptor, which thankfully comes with the system. “

 

[Elog]

What we are talking about when looking at the two new consoles are the 'other' things instead of TFLOPs. Some want to push the theoretical peak TFLOPs narrative but it is simply wrong. It is the 'other' things that will define the coming generation.

Let's have a look at 6 PC parts (excluding RT for now).

980Ti - 6.1 TFLOPs
2080 - 10.1 TFLOPs
1080Ti - 11.3 TFLOPs
Vega 64 - 12.7 TFLOPs
2080Ti - 13.5 TFLOps
3080 - 29.8 TFLOPs

Min 1% min FPS across 14 current generation games @4K High quality settings (Source: Techspot):

980Ti - 27 FPS
2080 - 53 FPS
1080Ti - 52 FPS
Vega 64 - 38 FPS
2080Ti - 69 FPS
3080 - 89 FPS

As everyone can see up to 10 TFLOPs you get quite a lot of FPS for your money. After 10 TFLOPs you hardly get anything for all that silicon - and other things will determine your 4K FPS than the TFLOPs number. And as a matter of fact - the FPS differences between 2080, 1080Ti, Vega 64, 2080Ti and 3080 has a stronger correlation with cache size than anything else in their official specifications (hint: Vega 64 has the smallest caches and lowest pixel fill rate of the four despite all those TFLOPs...).

This is why the 'other' things are so important when comparing these two consoles and will be a stronger determinant of performance than those TFLOPs people love to talk about.

The geometry engine, then cache sizes and cache management systems, the I/O and as a consequence the usable VRAM pool, the RT solution, the frequency, pixel and texture fill rates etc. It is not FUD to focus on these things - those are the things that will matter.

 

[MasterCornholio]

The people who spread it tried to make it sound more recent than it is

That's got to be it. There were certain individuals that were pushing it like it was final specifications for these consoles. And I also don't think we were told how old the tests were from the ones who leaked it if I'm not mistaken.

 

[geordiemp]

Its months and months of Fud, and all the dick-waving bullshit of how much better this console will be.

Most of the arguments you get out of here are straight from the dealer/eastwood manual. All i have heard about the last 3 months is the power of 12 tflops, so sick out it. Stop fucking telling me and show me.

Now we have got games coming out and some of them look like shit and people are starting to defend those as well.

I got people saying Ass creed looks good, the only reason they are doing that is because xbox has a very small amount of launch games so, they are treating them like gold dust.

I am fucking sorry, Ass creed looks like shit, on xbox and ps5, Dirt to me looks like shit on xbox, and i would 99.99 percent imagine it's going to look like shit on ps5.

I have see spiderman, looks amazing
I have seen Demon souls looks amazing
R+c Jesus amazing

Bugsnax, fuck me sideways and bury under 200 tonnes of rubble. For my niece is amazing.

Why do people keep defending these multiple games is beyond me.

Who ruffled your fins this morning young fishy.

Play us a tune

 

[MasterCornholio]

Listen bud, you stood by while 52 points of fucking fud were spread by your friends and comrades in the xbox community on this forum, not once did you try and set them straight, not once did you ask them to fucking apologize for there bull shit in TURNING THE COMMUNITY TOXIC.

Don't play the fucking victim card with me, or give me your holier than thou bullshit. You're upset because other people's technical views are not lining up with yours.

This is a speculation thread, 10 days to go TICK TOCK.

 

[Godfavor]

What we are talking about when looking at the two new consoles are the 'other' things instead of TFLOPs. Some want to push the theoretical peak TFLOPs narrative but it is simply wrong. It is the 'other' things that will define the coming generation.

Let's have a look at 6 PC parts (excluding RT for now).

980Ti - 6.1 TFLOPs
2080 - 10.1 TFLOPs
1080Ti - 11.3 TFLOPs
Vega 64 - 12.7 TFLOPs
2080Ti - 13.5 TFLOps
3080 - 29.8 TFLOPs

Min 1% min FPS across 14 current generation games @4K High quality settings (Source: Techspot):

980Ti - 27 FPS
2080 - 53 FPS
1080Ti - 52 FPS
Vega 64 - 38 FPS
2080Ti - 69 FPS
3080 - 89 FPS

As everyone can see up to 10 TFLOPs you get quite a lot of FPS for your money. After 10 TFLOPs you hardly get anything for all that silicon - and other things will determine your 4K FPS than the TFLOPs number. And as a matter of fact - the FPS differences between 2080, 1080Ti, Vega 64, 2080Ti and 3080 has a stronger correlation with cache size than anything else in their official specifications (hint: Vega 64 has the smallest caches and lowest pixel fill rate of the four despite all those TFLOPs...).

This is why the 'other' things are so important when comparing these two consoles and will be a stronger determinant of performance than those TFLOPs people love to talk about.

The geometry engine, then cache sizes and cache management systems, the I/O and as a consequence the usable VRAM pool, the RT solution, the frequency, pixel and texture fill rates etc. It is not FUD to focus on these things - those are the things that will matter.

Memory bandwidth is the second biggest reason beside TF for performance

 

[MasterCornholio]

CUs in PS5 GPU should have been bigger than what is inside XsX

Something like this will be easily proven with a die shot. I don't think we will get an answer before then.

 

[Elog]

Memory bandwidth is the second biggest reason beside TF for performance

It is important but please note that Vega 64, 1080Ti and 2080 have the same memory bandwidth, close to identical TFLOPs and significant FPS differences.

 

[Lunatic_Gamer]

 

[Snowdonhoffen]

Memory bandwidth is the second biggest reason beside TF for performance

Yes, and weirdly enough one console has an asymmetrical setup for its ram and bandwidth so it's even harder to know how everything will work in practice.

 

[geordiemp]

Memory bandwidth is the second biggest reason beside TF for performance

Used to be.

Memory RAM is very far away in GPU clock cycles compared to anything on chip its not in the same ballpark.

A large L2 cache brings data inside the silicon and so much faster, it will be the new thing this generation, memory bandwidth or L2 cache discssions will continue for next few years. Bookmark it.

But L2 cache size has other benefits.....many ways to skin a cat....